EPT[MDL] Winter 2015 Groupstage - Page 72
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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goody153
44260 Posts
There were even times that old EG got eliminated out of group stages against teams like LC before. If you are gonna consider the positive results into the opinion then make sure to consider the negative results as well. | ||
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
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Sloke
Germany2433 Posts
I literally could watch only 1 game while waking up 5am just to go to work at 7am ... and now everything is over. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
At the moment, most of the meta is unsettled. Or, and I'm getting concerned that this might be the case, maybe the current meta is more "balanced" than a lot of others. Not too many Snowballing carries around right now. Everything can be shut down, if you do it properly. This could actually make some rather unappealing Dota (as it's more "who makes less mistakes" rather than "who made the best plays"), but we'll have to see. It was Day 1 and all 10 teams put in a few stinkers of games. At Starladder, Team Liquid was looking like the best team there, at this point. There's a lot of dota to go. Though I think the Mid Lane meta is open for some wild approaches right now, the real problem is the Defensive High Ground fall-back plan. There's a lot of heroes that make it really, really hard to break high ground against a good team. That's the "nut" that has to be cracked. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On January 28 2016 01:59 Sloke wrote: So what about some recommended games or better "must watch games"? I literally could watch only 1 game while waking up 5am just to go to work at 7am ... and now everything is over. What flavor do you like? Stomps or Throws? | ||
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goody153
44260 Posts
On January 28 2016 01:59 Taf the Ghost wrote: Let's get off rehashing roster moves from last year. At the moment, most of the meta is unsettled. Or, and I'm getting concerned that this might be the case, maybe the current meta is more "balanced" than a lot of others. Not too many Snowballing carries around right now. Everything can be shut down, if you do it properly. This could actually make some rather unappealing Dota (as it's more "who makes less mistakes" rather than "who made the best plays"), but we'll have to see. It was Day 1 and all 10 teams put in a few stinkers of games. At Starladder, Team Liquid was looking like the best team there, at this point. There's a lot of dota to go. Though I think the Mid Lane meta is open for some wild approaches right now, the real problem is the Defensive High Ground fall-back plan. There's a lot of heroes that make it really, really hard to break high ground against a good team. That's the "nut" that has to be cracked. Well i think we already saw the result of the easily breakable highground back in TI4 wasn't also a pretty sight either. I think it's also the fact that comebacks are a commonplace, like before 10k lead is alot and usually unreversable nowadays it doesn't mean much a key kill or two can turn the game all around. ok maybe it wasn;t that bad i'm sleepy already | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
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goody153
44260 Posts
On January 28 2016 02:17 Piledriver wrote: TI4 was actually pretty good except for the finals IMO, where we just witnessed rotk imploding and drafting the same lineup over and over. I don't think the patch was particularly bad, it was more of a perception problem because 1) Western audiences didn't like to see an all chinese finals 2) Drafting and playstyle failures of rotk was masked because of the complaints about the patch. I actually enjoyed the tournaments that followed immediately afterwards, until they released the dreadful sniper/troll patch. There was actually a distinction of playstyles between teams during TI4. Personally i enjoyed the group stages. Not only there was the thrill of half of the teams being eliminated and it really felt like the most important tournament of the year but also the group stages games were so dope. Sniper/troll patch was horrible. Watching games and playing games weren't any different that time. That patch just made me angry | ||
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Sloke
Germany2433 Posts
On January 28 2016 02:00 Taf the Ghost wrote: What flavor do you like? Stomps or Throws? Actually neither. What about some close/interesting games? Well, so basically more "throws" than stomps ... | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
This is why drafts for non-bracket games just don't fucking matter (as much). | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On January 28 2016 02:17 Piledriver wrote: TI4 was actually pretty good except for the finals IMO, where we just witnessed rotk imploding and drafting the same lineup over and over. I don't think the patch was particularly bad, it was more of a perception problem because 1) Western audiences didn't like to see an all chinese finals 2) Drafting and playstyle failures of rotk was masked because of the complaints about the patch. I actually enjoyed the tournaments that followed immediately afterwards, until they released the dreadful sniper/troll patch. TI4 was "good" in that the games were hilariously bad and fun to watch in that respect. There were only two real strategies present: gang up and push early, and gang up and defend high ground. Chinese teams favored the former, while EG favored the latter. As it turned out, the former won the day. EG's late-striking quad-core just didn't hit early enough to meet the Chinese instant tri-core meta, and they ended up losing. The finals were just a test to see who understood how to group up as 5 better. What made the patch particularly frustrating to watch was how map movements were banal and uninteresting: after the laning phase, you moved with your team. Contrast this with even the current patch, where you can see more experienced teams just having the right players in the right places the entire game through. I'll admit that the Communist Patch was one of the worst things to ever happen to the game, though. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On January 28 2016 03:50 Acritter wrote: TI4 was "good" in that the games were hilariously bad and fun to watch in that respect. There were only two real strategies present: gang up and push early, and gang up and defend high ground. Chinese teams favored the former, while EG favored the latter. As it turned out, the former won the day. EG's late-striking quad-core just didn't hit early enough to meet the Chinese instant tri-core meta, and they ended up losing. The finals were just a test to see who understood how to group up as 5 better. What made the patch particularly frustrating to watch was how map movements were banal and uninteresting: after the laning phase, you moved with your team. Contrast this with even the current patch, where you can see more experienced teams just having the right players in the right places the entire game through. I'll admit that the Communist Patch was one of the worst things to ever happen to the game, though. I'm always wary of metas that form at TI because the inevitable post-TI patch plus the post-TI tournament lethargy means that there really is never an opportunity for the meta to get countered organically. Of course face-rush won the day at TI4 but I really question if it would have held up over 3-4 months if teams were still motivated to play that patch. EG losing 2 bo3's really isn't proof to me. | ||
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wims80
1892 Posts
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On January 28 2016 04:02 wims80 wrote: Part of the problem with TI metas is that the patch is always old when TI hits and the most optimal strategies have been figured out for a long time already. There are very few surprises when it comes to picks and strategies. I guess that is a good thing for determining which team has the strongest execution, but it's bad for innovative teams that don't have quite the same execution as the top teams If that was true for TI4 then we would've seen more than just the top Chinese teams play that strat. If that was true for TI5 then how did CDEC come out of nowhere with their strat. It's kind of true for TI3 Alliance but being 1 out of 3 is meh. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On January 28 2016 04:18 hariooo wrote: If that was true for TI4 then we would've seen more than just the top Chinese teams play that strat. If that was true for TI5 then how did CDEC come out of nowhere with their strat. It's kind of true for TI3 Alliance but being 1 out of 3 is meh. pretty much this post. i actually loved the ti4 meta and the time after it. yes you had a lot of pushstrats but the teams slowly learned how to play with and around it and you saw a clear evolution in gameplay AFTER ti4 edit: ti4 just has a bad rep because eg lost and the finals were a letdown | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On January 28 2016 01:58 lolnoty wrote: Everything still have to align perfectly for EG in order for that to happen; they beating VG 2-0, and OG either drawing 1-1 or better yet losing to Newbee. If that is the case(the former) they are even in H2H with 5-3 scores across the boards, and I imagine they would need to play Bo1s against each other to decide, or the rolling of dice, or alphabetically, depending on schedules. I imagine they have postponed to today, so they can have these bo1 deciders. If the latter, then EG will be 1st due to H2H with VG, while OG only has 4-4 score. Newbee would be in the mix though, with two draws against the two.It's cool that we talk about why EG sucks when they can still take 1st in groups tomorrow. How does head to head work if we get the VG/EG/OG tie? | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
i mean at the ti4 time, death prophet and the whole deathpush was only really relevant after ti4. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On January 28 2016 08:28 hfglgg wrote: Well, I don't think there was much of a meta at TI2. First of all there weren't all that many tournaments, the hero pool was smallish, and well, PPY unlocked the Chinese favored picks, even letting them pick as they wanted, and punished their farming ways - until the final, where he got cocky.the only time where you could say that a meta was truly figured out was at ti2 and maybe at ti3, but even there not completely. i mean at the ti4 time, death prophet and the whole deathpush was only really relevant after ti4. The Chinese were more disciplined than the Europeans, and their strategies more stabil and reliant. Most did 4prot1 back then - even Na'vi, though their style was more aggressive. On January 28 2016 03:50 hariooo wrote: While that is true, PPD is still struggling to find a style for his team, and continues to copy the best of European strategies, rather than making their own. If he feels the problem is Invoker, he is in a world of problems, but I doubt that is the case. He is a good analyst, thus reactive to his inadequacies as a drafter/innovator.It's pretty obvious PPD wanted to test stuff out against Miracle Invoker. Do you really think if that was an elimination series that Invoker isn't banned G2 if EG weren't going to pick it first? This is why drafts for non-bracket games just don't fucking matter (as much). OG are prepared to have invoker banned. In fact they hope respect bans comes. ' | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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