EPTdamnn
[TI5] Main Event Day 1 - Page 5
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
damnn | ||
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SleepyDreams
600 Posts
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
this raises the stake for not going top 4 in group thus meaning they should not waste game in the group stage this BO 1 is super legit if you asked me | ||
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Reson
530 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:54 opterown wrote: eh i dno how you can call mu a bad mid Don't even know how he calls any of the Chinese mid players bad mechanically. If they were mechanically bad we won't even know of their existence. Nearly all if not all of the Chinese players were Solo rank beasts before turning pro. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 01 2015 10:33 Reson wrote: Don't even know how he calls any of the Chinese mid players bad mechanically. If they were mechanically bad we won't even know of their existence. Nearly all if not all of the Chinese players were Solo rank beasts before turning pro. The only counter example I can think of is xiao8 and even then it's not like he was bad, he just never really won his lane and went bottle crow heroes so that he didn't need to. Also didn't Yao have a hideously bad magnus? I think the argument is more of a comparison thing, no pro player that made it to TI is actually bad in the mechanics sense except maybe relative to other pros (and I don't think players are getting smacked around in matchups they should be winning hard which wasn't the case in some of the prior TIs games). I remember TI3's solo mid finals which were won by Iceiceice (the Puck game is still incredible to watch), and the 1v1 tournament before that was won by Fenrir. Before that I believe Fear won the first 1v1 tournament in dota 2. Isn't MMY X!! ? Who was widely regarded as the best mid for a very long time. And now he plays pos 4/5. Basically the strongest laner on a team frequently is not their mid, but this is more frequently the case for Eastern teams than it is for western teams. I think this is because the chinese teams place more emphasis on the "4" role than western teams do. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On August 01 2015 11:03 Nevuk wrote: I think this is because the chinese teams place more emphasis on the "4" role than western teams do. It's not that they are bad, it's that they don't have a sumail or RTZ | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On August 01 2015 11:03 Nevuk wrote: The only counter example I can think of is xiao8 and even then it's not like he was bad, he just never really won his lane and went bottle crow heroes so that he didn't need to. He has that reputation, but at DAC (last time he played mid) he was one of the best laners. | ||
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
On August 01 2015 11:58 haduken wrote: bo1 for lower bracket, is this for realz? Yes it was announced a long time ago. | ||
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
On August 01 2015 11:58 haduken wrote: bo1 for lower bracket, is this for realz? (only for round 1) | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On August 01 2015 12:14 Orome wrote: He has that reputation, but at DAC (last time he played mid) he was one of the best laners. director 8 is like a coach - player, he can pretty much play any roles, while he doesn't excel at any of them, he is consistent. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:51 SleepyDreams wrote: Col knows that swindle is their weakest player. But it doesn't matter because their a team that rotates it's supports (mainly fly) to help him mid. That is why they are doing so well. This is the same for most Chinese teams, they will rotate supports so mid skill levels don't matter much. This is why even though western teams generally have the higher mechanically skilled players, Chinese teams have better team fight abilities as their pubs basically 5 man from the start. Hence we see why VG and Newbee did well last TI compared to teams like EG and DK. EG and DK did worse than Newbee and VG because they didn't have the understanding of how to play 6.81b that Newbee and VG did. Both teams were still stuck playing the farm-heavy multi-core teamcomps that they pioneered in 6.80, and didn't adapt to the fast-push/early teamfight nature of the new version. Arteezy outright admitted to the fact that they basically wrote off DP as a hero they simply weren't going to play because they did poorly with it in 1 scrim. On August 01 2015 11:03 Nevuk wrote: Also didn't Yao have a hideously bad magnus? Yao's Magnus issues stemmed from the fact that he basically learned how to play the hero as a solo offlane back when Skewer had 1200 range on rank 1. This means he basically a) never learned to 1v1 properly with the hero since his entire early time with the hero was playing 1v3 offlanes, and b) never learned to use the hero to gank/set the tempo early pre-Blink because as an offlane in 6.75-6.78, you basically were just expected to sneak as much XP as possible and follow the mid's tempo. In fact, you could argue that the reason both Xiao8 and Yao didn't seem to excel at laning in the 2013 LGD period was because they basically swapped playing offlane and mid half the time so neither got sufficiently practiced either offlane or mid. LGD at the time was still stuck in the older mindset of having players play positions/roles by hero proficiency, rather than always playing the same position each time regardless of the heroes. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 01 2015 14:45 TheYango wrote: Yao's Magnus issues stemmed from the fact that he basically learned how to play the hero as a solo offlane back when Skewer had 1200 range on rank 1. This means he basically a) never learned to 1v1 properly with the hero since his entire early time with the hero was playing 1v3 offlanes, and b) never learned to use the hero to gank/set the tempo early pre-Blink because as an offlane in 6.75-6.78, you basically were just expected to sneak as much XP as possible and follow the mid's tempo. In fact, you could argue that the reason both Xiao8 and Yao didn't seem to excel at laning in the 2013 LGD period was because they basically swapped playing offlane and mid half the time so neither got sufficiently practiced either offlane or mid. LGD at the time was still stuck in the older mindset of having players play positions/roles by hero proficiency, rather than always playing the same position each time regardless of the heroes. I honestly have no idea how anyone played Magnus as an offlaner in 6.75 after that skewer range nerf. He was certainly rather broken when he came in dota 2, with skewer piercing BKB and an extra 100 damage on his ult at every level on top of the 1200 range skewer. I could swear that I saw xiao8 playing magnus a few times to far greater effect than Yao, but that year was kind of a blur for me. By same position, I assume you're talking about xiao8/yao swapping mid/offlane frequently. Is that really that much different from EG when they had rtz playing mid as a position 1? edit- This does remind me ... I haven't seen any player pocket picks that require position swaps in a long while - ie notail on meepo, iceiceice invoker, etc. Is it because the super specialized heroes are just weak currently or more a deeper trend? | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On August 01 2015 05:29 Beirut wrote: So going into the main stage I wanted to see if my personal feeling of hero diversity this year was correct. It really feels like we have a tight concentration of heroes that are being picked or banned every game. I did a quick pull for pick/ban rates on datdota and thought you guys might want to see the stats. Last year only 4 heroes had a combined pick/ban rate above 75%:+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UrTliNZ.png) This year we have 10 heroes above that mark: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YoFNRQo.png) Another quick stat: this year 80.6% of heroes have been picked in the group stage. Last year this number was 86.6%. This assumes a hero pool of 108 this year and a pool of 105 last year. Those #s might be off by 1 somewhere because I can't remember exactly what was enabled/disabled. This might be somewhat exaggerated by a large sample size last year (123) vs. this year (115). Anyway if anything seems off let me know, did this pretty quick on lunch break. Seems a little too arbitrary to choose 75%. If I chose 85% they would both only be 4 heroes. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2015 15:39 Nevuk wrote: By same position, I assume you're talking about xiao8/yao swapping mid/offlane frequently. Is that really that much different from EG when they had rtz playing mid as a position 1? Yes, in fact it's the exact reverse situation. Arteezy always played mid on EG, regardless of what his actual farm priority was. This meant he developed a very high level of proficiency at playing mid lane. He might be playing carries like Naga, or tempo heroes like Puck, but he was always playing mid lane, regardless. The role swapping might affect his decision making/play over the course of the rest of the game, but the discussion raised is concerning their fundamentals and the ability to play lanes. Regardless of any questionable decision-making throughout the rest of the game, Arteezy's ability to play *laning* remained top notch throughout the year. Xiao8 and Yao would play mid and offlane depending on what heroes they got. If it was a Furion, xiao8 would play it. If it was Magnus, Yao would play it. If it was Nyx, xiao8 would play it, etc. This meant that each one was playing mid in 50% of games, and offlane in 50% of games. So instead of being really proficient at the lane they were playing, they would only get kind of okay-ish at each of them, which simply wasn't good enough to play vs. top teams. | ||
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Shergal
Argentina1191 Posts
I think neither Xiao8 nor Yao were ever as good as the top laners. It's just a fingers issue, I'm not sure practice can solve anything major by that point in their Dota life. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2015 16:57 Shergal wrote: I think neither Xiao8 nor Yao were ever as good as the top laners. It's just a fingers issue, I'm not sure practice can solve anything major by that point in their Dota life. I'm not saying that they could be as good as Arteezy through practice. But just look at xiao8's post-LGD performance--when he played exclusively offlane on Newbee and exclusively mid on Big God, he very clearly showed a much higher level of play than when he had to split his practice time 50/50 on LGD. | ||
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Kamisamanachi
4665 Posts
On August 01 2015 16:57 Shergal wrote: Arteezy was considered by everyone that laned against him to be "the best mid laner in the world" way before he joined EG though. He's the only mid player I'd say is mechanically above the others in a way that can conceivably decide a game. I think neither Xiao8 nor Yao were ever as good as the top laners. It's just a fingers issue, I'm not sure practice can solve anything major by that point in their Dota life. and rtz himself said last year in few interviews and his vlog that 430 is the best mid laner in the world and he deserves better team than TI4 IG..i also remember his tri cast with bulba,1437 where he said the same thing.. | ||
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Kamisamanachi
4665 Posts
he is basically a defination of chinese conservative mid style mashed up with western aggressive mid style.. | ||
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