On September 02 2012 16:51 Ryuu314 wrote: While Na'vi's picks against IG were great, I'm not convinced that it was Navi that outpicked them as much as it was IG choking and making some major mistakes over and over again.
iG's teamfight weakness is enigma, note how vs EG and Na'Vi they didn't respect the black hole. 430 played bad today but honestly he wasnt given the tools to take over the early-mid game -- puck wasnt very useful against na'vis lineup and a lot of the games have been so aggressive on tinker in TI2 that the hero often doesnt get any time to get rolling before teams lose, resulting in a 35% winrate so far.
going into the actual TI2 people thought LGD was less versatile than iG, but while iG has very talented players they seem to be reluctant to get out of their comfort hero picks, as evidenced in these later rounds. i think beastmaster will become one of the more important heroes to think about in these final rounds.
I am very, very disappointed by the picks and versatility of Chinese teams in general this TI 2.
Na'Vi is far from perfect. A lot of Puppey's picks are unstable and aren't exactly the best picks ever. But they work because he is able to predict the Chinese teams' picks so perfectly due to their dogmatic sticking to what they know and use in their own meta.
For example, Enigma - every Dota player who has played this game for longer than a year knows how to counter this hero. VS, Beast, Silencer - all of these heroes are hard counters. Hell, Silencer was a perfect pick for iG that game because Global Silence is applied over magic immunity and all of Na'Vi's heroes depended on spells to function.
Song -> Global Silence -> Ravage + Wall + Vacuum + Lina's spells + Curse -> GG.
Same with Beast, though I forget whether he was banned by Na'Vi, but it's an obvious counter and also adds extra AoE damage to the combo and push denial.
Instead they went for a Puck because 430 only knows how to play 5 heroes well in Dota 2 and that's one of them.
In the third game, Puppey first picked Leshrac and Chen and iG was not able to respond with an AM, and later an AA. Sad.
Now thinking about it... if Na'Vi got wiped that fight, they could just all tp bot after respawning and go again, only to fight against no ravage and no song... The fight would still be very favorable for them, imo. what happened just made everything quicker.
On September 02 2012 17:57 cecek wrote: Now thinking about it... if Na'Vi got wiped that fight, they could just all tp bot after respawning and go again, only to fight against no ravage and no song... The fight would still be very favorable for them, imo. what happened just made everything quicker.
No, because Na'Vi without black hole isn't able to take a fight, so then Puppey has to know not to use black hole that fight.
iG still had vacuum, Puck, and Lina's spells to work with.
On September 02 2012 17:57 cecek wrote: Now thinking about it... if Na'Vi got wiped that fight, they could just all tp bot after respawning and go again, only to fight against no ravage and no song... The fight would still be very favorable for them, imo. what happened just made everything quicker.
No, because Na'Vi without black hole isn't able to take a fight, so then Puppey has to know not to use black hole that fight.
iG still had vacuum, Puck, and Lina's spells to work with.
What I said was assuming the song, vacuum, ravage combo would kill Na'Vi and LoH wouldn't have a chance to use his bkb, or w/e.... And then Na'Vi would respawn with blackhole on cooldown and go back in.
On September 02 2012 17:57 cecek wrote: Now thinking about it... if Na'Vi got wiped that fight, they could just all tp bot after respawning and go again, only to fight against no ravage and no song... The fight would still be very favorable for them, imo. what happened just made everything quicker.
No, because Na'Vi without black hole isn't able to take a fight, so then Puppey has to know not to use black hole that fight.
iG still had vacuum, Puck, and Lina's spells to work with.
What I said was assuming the song, vacuum, ravage combo would kill Na'Vi and LoH wouldn't have a chance to use his bkb, or w/e.... And then Na'Vi would respawn with blackhole on cooldown and go back in.
Well yeah, but that just says the best path of execution for iG was not to focus Enigma, and to bait out the Black Hole while killing Na'Vi's other heroes first.
Gotta hand it out to Na'Vi for the Juggernaut pick though. Very undervalued hero in early team fights.
Also props to Dendi for the insane execution. Had he not force staved himself out of Ravage range, this fight was a lot harder to turn around.
The question now is, will we get to see Dendi's pudge? Or will LGD first ban him like the other Chinese teams? My prediction: He slips by the bans in one game, Dendi goes on a fucking warpath, and that is the last time we get to see Pudge not banned against Na'Vi on a LAN event.
On September 02 2012 16:51 Ryuu314 wrote: While Na'vi's picks against IG were great, I'm not convinced that it was Navi that outpicked them as much as it was IG choking and making some major mistakes over and over again.
iG's teamfight weakness is enigma, note how vs EG and Na'Vi they didn't respect the black hole. 430 played bad today but honestly he wasnt given the tools to take over the early-mid game -- puck wasnt very useful against na'vis lineup and a lot of the games have been so aggressive on tinker in TI2 that the hero often doesnt get any time to get rolling before teams lose, resulting in a 35% winrate so far.
going into the actual TI2 people thought LGD was less versatile than iG, but while iG has very talented players they seem to be reluctant to get out of their comfort hero picks, as evidenced in these later rounds. i think beastmaster will become one of the more important heroes to think about in these final rounds.
I am very, very disappointed by the picks and versatility of Chinese teams in general this TI 2.
Na'Vi is far from perfect. A lot of Puppey's picks are unstable and aren't exactly the best picks ever. But they work because he is able to predict the Chinese teams' picks so perfectly due to their dogmatic sticking to what they know and use in their own meta.
For example, Enigma - every Dota player who has played this game for longer than a year knows how to counter this hero. VS, Beast, Silencer - all of these heroes are hard counters. Hell, Silencer was a perfect pick for iG that game because Global Silence is applied over magic immunity and all of Na'Vi's heroes depended on spells to function.
Song -> Global Silence -> Ravage + Wall + Vacuum + Lina's spells + Curse -> GG.
Same with Beast, though I forget whether he was banned by Na'Vi, but it's an obvious counter and also adds extra AoE damage to the combo and push denial.
Instead they went for a Puck because 430 only knows how to play 5 heroes well in Dota 2 and that's one of them.
In the third game, Puppey first picked Leshrac and Chen and iG was not able to respond with an AM, and later an AA. Sad.
beastmaster or vs was a much better option in my opinion. even though their antipush is slightly weaker you still have a naga and tidehunter to fall back on. i know ferrari can play beastmaster for sure, but faith never seems to like to fallback on the draft for enigma, in fact im not sure why they even picked puck, hell they couldve gone with TA/vs instead of puck/lina and been in a lot better shape with no leshrac around. one of the most underestimated things in the game is vacuum + WALL** + TA trap, it is absolutely infuriating if you dont have the right heroes to get out of it/get rid of the illusions, not to mention naga helps traps and cleave setups. didnt the pinoys do this already??
i remember in the old days how feared enigma was in the chinese scene such that he was an instant ban... you think they would remember the simple stuff from the old days =P. well at least that teamfight is now immortalized as "the play"
On September 02 2012 16:51 Ryuu314 wrote: While Na'vi's picks against IG were great, I'm not convinced that it was Navi that outpicked them as much as it was IG choking and making some major mistakes over and over again.
iG's teamfight weakness is enigma, note how vs EG and Na'Vi they didn't respect the black hole. 430 played bad today but honestly he wasnt given the tools to take over the early-mid game -- puck wasnt very useful against na'vis lineup and a lot of the games have been so aggressive on tinker in TI2 that the hero often doesnt get any time to get rolling before teams lose, resulting in a 35% winrate so far.
going into the actual TI2 people thought LGD was less versatile than iG, but while iG has very talented players they seem to be reluctant to get out of their comfort hero picks, as evidenced in these later rounds. i think beastmaster will become one of the more important heroes to think about in these final rounds.
I am very, very disappointed by the picks and versatility of Chinese teams in general this TI 2.
Na'Vi is far from perfect. A lot of Puppey's picks are unstable and aren't exactly the best picks ever. But they work because he is able to predict the Chinese teams' picks so perfectly due to their dogmatic sticking to what they know and use in their own meta.
For example, Enigma - every Dota player who has played this game for longer than a year knows how to counter this hero. VS, Beast, Silencer - all of these heroes are hard counters. Hell, Silencer was a perfect pick for iG that game because Global Silence is applied over magic immunity and all of Na'Vi's heroes depended on spells to function.
Song -> Global Silence -> Ravage + Wall + Vacuum + Lina's spells + Curse -> GG.
Same with Beast, though I forget whether he was banned by Na'Vi, but it's an obvious counter and also adds extra AoE damage to the combo and push denial.
Instead they went for a Puck because 430 only knows how to play 5 heroes well in Dota 2 and that's one of them.
In the third game, Puppey first picked Leshrac and Chen and iG was not able to respond with an AM, and later an AA. Sad.
I think they just want to play their own game. If you feel that you are the stronger team , or you think your team is well-prepared, you don't want to suit your game around your opponents too much. That's what the analyst deskssaid as well. You don't want to devise strategies on the spot and regret it later because you have not tried it before in scrims.
And the best counter to enigma is just proper positioning and spreading.
Silencer would have been so vulnerable in mid lane. The only time i have seen Silencer works relatively recently is with aL and it is played as no 1 in the safe lane. They had naga in that role already. And we don't know how many times iG have practiced Silencer.
Dendi has also played only relatively few heroes ( rubick,pudge,puck,qop,tinker). It is about playing what is comfortable for your team.
I'd have to say IG's loss was 50% execution and 50% pick ( they were counterpicked no doubt but not outpicked so that the game became impossible by any means). IG still had very good heroes and with better positioning, they could have won it. Or if Navi had executed the strategy any less brilliantly, they game would be open stil.
There's no way a dark seer, naga, tide is counterpicked by an enigma. Sorry, too much hindsight bias in here. A bkb is great and all, but good positioning and awareness beats that.
An enigma shouldn't have had that much farm to begin with in the long lane. They took the early tower but enigma denying all the way back to the tier 2 let him get much more than he should have, and they never put 3 up there to stop him. They were too worried about dendi mid for some reason.
On September 02 2012 18:29 Itsmedudeman wrote: There's no way a dark seer, naga, tide is counterpicked by an enigma. Sorry, too much hindsight bias in here. A bkb is great and all, but good positioning and awareness beats that.
An enigma shouldn't have had that much farm to begin with in the long lane. They took the early tower but enigma denying all the way back to the tier 2 let him get much more than he should have, and they never put 3 up there to stop him. They were too worried about dendi mid for some reason.
I guess you think your better strategist than puppey then..
On September 02 2012 18:29 Itsmedudeman wrote: There's no way a dark seer, naga, tide is counterpicked by an enigma. Sorry, too much hindsight bias in here. A bkb is great and all, but good positioning and awareness beats that.
An enigma shouldn't have had that much farm to begin with in the long lane. They took the early tower but enigma denying all the way back to the tier 2 let him get much more than he should have, and they never put 3 up there to stop him. They were too worried about dendi mid for some reason.
I guess you think your better strategist than puppey then..
Dumb argument, I could find another pro and ask them if they think enigma counters 3 heroes and they'd say no. Not to mention dendi stole ravage TWICE. Something that shouldn't have happened either. I dare na`vi to let LGD take naga, tide, and ds again.
Not to mention they don't even need naga to set things up, they have a fucking ds. Save siren for if enigma gets a big black hole off and it's over for them.
On September 02 2012 18:29 Itsmedudeman wrote: There's no way a dark seer, naga, tide is counterpicked by an enigma. Sorry, too much hindsight bias in here. A bkb is great and all, but good positioning and awareness beats that.
An enigma shouldn't have had that much farm to begin with in the long lane. They took the early tower but enigma denying all the way back to the tier 2 let him get much more than he should have, and they never put 3 up there to stop him. They were too worried about dendi mid for some reason.
I guess you think your better strategist than puppey then..
Dumb argument, I could find another pro and ask them if they think enigma counters 3 heroes and they'd say no. Not to mention dendi stole ravage TWICE. Something that shouldn't have happened either. I dare na`vi to let LGD take naga, tide, and ds again.
Not to mention they don't even need naga to set things up, they have a fucking ds. Save siren for if enigma gets a big black hole off and it's over for them.
I hope that pro is in LGD ... but i doubt it ...
Well if you think that the counterpick by puppey was just an Enigma you probably shouldnt be talking about strategy.
There is something about that game 2 picking phase that made me shiver. I keep watching them over and over. And I am not even a big Navi fanboy ( I like them sure, they are my favourite team left in TI2, but i don't LOVE them).
But seeing LoH cracking up all the way and Puppey's smirk when he picked Juggernaut, it's a thrill.Not sure how to put it.
EPT
