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Jehct
New Zealand9115 Posts
On April 18 2013 00:25 teapoted wrote: Okay I guess I'll have to go full circle on this. That same thing applies to not using skype - that's precisely my point -_- It's having an (easily found) skype that lets people ddos you; using it in-game/at that second isn't what makes you vulnerable (though it might not work if you haven't used it recently) | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Scenario 1: You open facebook on the computer and it explodes and you die. Scenario 2: You can open facebook as long as you spend an hour installing this patch first, if you don't, it explodes and you die. Which would result in the most deaths? Either way those who go in oblivious will fail. But in Scenario 2 there are so many more opportunities for something to go wrong and there's the expectation of safety even though something might be misconfigured. So the best option there is to go to google wave, obviously. ~ As I've said, the standard shouldn't be something that people have to patch. Some people will take the risk regardless. But there's probably a lot of people who are fine with dropping skype entirely. | ||
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Jehct
New Zealand9115 Posts
On April 18 2013 00:43 teapoted wrote: Imagine a school/university internet connection where everyone brings their own laptop. Scenario 1: You open facebook on the computer and it explodes and you die. Scenario 2: You can open facebook as long as you spend an hour installing this patch first, if you don't, it explodes and you die. Which would result in the most deaths? Either way those who go in oblivious will fail. But in Scenario 2 there are so many more opportunities for something to go wrong and there's the expectation of safety even though something might be misconfigured. The analogy would work if ddosing was a blanket thing that you just did to everyone on skype, and not a targetted, time consuming process if you have to go through 20 players (and fail). And, yknow, the stakes being a little lower than death (because there are do-overs) It just needs to stop being so easy (majority of players protecting themselves + steam fix) and it should die down. After that, anyone who fucks it up is responsible, and it's treated like any other dc. It's the kind of mistake people should only ever make once. | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On April 17 2013 22:19 GoDz wrote: Anyone arguing that the only reason people use skype is because everyone uses skype also doesn't understand why it's even used either. Skype is the best program for what it does, it just sucks incredibly all the security flaws it has. No, it's not. Everyone is too stubborn to try the alternatives, but all the other ESPORTS have dealt with this and moved on. Skype is not the best for voice chat, it's not the best for group calls, it's not the best for text chatting. And the security flaws, which have been around for two years and aren't getting patched by Skype/MS any time soon, especially make it worse for this type of thing. "This car would be really great if only it had airbags" isn't a good argument for it being a good car, especially when it is definitely not the only option. Yes, people already have Skype installed and usually not Mumble, nor do they have a Mumble server at hand but if this is your job, stop trading in performance for convenience. It's hard to have any sympathy for the gamers when they take such a lackadaisical attitude to a problem that's already been solved. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
On April 18 2013 01:58 Jibba wrote: No, it's not. Everyone is too stubborn to try the alternatives, but all the other ESPORTS have dealt with this and moved on. Skype is not the best for voice chat, it's not the best for group calls, it's not the best for text chatting. And the security flaws, which have been around for two years and aren't getting patched by Skype/MS any time soon, especially make it worse for this type of thing. "This car would be really great if only it had airbags" isn't a good argument for it being a good car, especially when it is definitely not the only option. Yes, people already have Skype installed and usually not Mumble, nor do they have a Mumble server at hand but if this is your job, stop trading in performance for convenience. It's hard to have any sympathy for the gamers when they take such a lackadaisical attitude to a problem that's already been solved. Again there wouldn't be a problem even with Skype if they take the steps to use a proxy so that they mask their new ip while using Skype at the same time. Yes pro players should take the steps to mask their IP's and elongate any trace of other ways that can lead to the attacker somehow attaining it again. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On April 18 2013 01:58 Jibba wrote: No, it's not. Everyone is too stubborn to try the alternatives, but all the other ESPORTS have dealt with this and moved on. Skype is not the best for voice chat, it's not the best for group calls, it's not the best for text chatting. And the security flaws, which have been around for two years and aren't getting patched by Skype/MS any time soon, especially make it worse for this type of thing. "This car would be really great if only it had airbags" isn't a good argument for it being a good car, especially when it is definitely not the only option. Yes, people already have Skype installed and usually not Mumble, nor do they have a Mumble server at hand but if this is your job, stop trading in performance for convenience. It's hard to have any sympathy for the gamers when they take such a lackadaisical attitude to a problem that's already been solved. I think individually all of those things are true, but what program does all of those things AND is popular? e: this is a legitimate question | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
We're not talking about casual play sessions with your friends, where you want to just jump in and go. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I don't know of a program that does all of those things well. There are plenty that do one or two well but... | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4553 Posts
Mumble is fucking awesome. | ||
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LDdota
United States1465 Posts
The closest competitor which offers similar functionality is Google Chat, but the web-based chat as well as the standalone Google Talk client just aren't nearly as user-friendly or feature-rich as Skype. IRC isn't bad either but it's got some annoying barriers to entry & flaws (examples: needing to register / protect channels to avoid random people stalking, snooping, & interrupting conversations) and isn't necessarily any more secure than Skype (it can be secure if you take precautions, but so too can using Skype). Email isn't real-time and thus is not a good alternative, it would make things far more complicated and messy to coordinate than necessary. The real solution is for people to take the necessary precautions to safeguard their IPs / Skype accounts by using a service like imo.im, a proxy, VPS/VPN, or SSH tunnel, not to switch to crappy substitutes. For VOIP, I fully agree that Mumble is great, and Raidcall/TS3/Ventrilo are serviceable alternatives, but for just its chat / text messaging features, Skype really is the best tool I've seen (as well as by far the most convenient since everyone already uses it). If someone wants to program a secure esports chat client that offers all the text/chat-related functionality of Skype, I'd happily start using it and encourage other people to do the same, but I'm not going to tell everyone to go use Google Chat or IRC when they just flat-out aren't as good. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On April 18 2013 01:58 Jibba wrote: No, it's not. Everyone is too stubborn to try the alternatives, but all the other ESPORTS have dealt with this and moved on. Skype is not the best for voice chat, it's not the best for group calls, it's not the best for text chatting. And the security flaws, which have been around for two years and aren't getting patched by Skype/MS any time soon, especially make it worse for this type of thing. "This car would be really great if only it had airbags" isn't a good argument for it being a good car, especially when it is definitely not the only option. Yes, people already have Skype installed and usually not Mumble, nor do they have a Mumble server at hand but if this is your job, stop trading in performance for convenience. It's hard to have any sympathy for the gamers when they take such a lackadaisical attitude to a problem that's already been solved. I can't believe anyone would not use mumble for a serious match play just for the lower latency it gives you. We did tests of mumble vs ventrillo at esea and the difference was readily apparent, like 1-2 seconds on lan. Can't image skype fairs any better. For a game where a 40 minute match can be decided in a split second of communication I just don't get it. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Skype has a combination that Mumble (Mumble has chat groups and logs, but they can't be sent to someone who is offline) and Gchat don't, but it also performs worse than both of them in their individual aspects, on top of the security problem. Having a JoinDota or BTS or w/e Mumble server seems to make so much more sense. You still have chat rooms/groups/logs, and better quality for the actual casting (plus if one person d/c's or becomes a robot, the other doesn't have to alt tab and re-invite them.) Plus it's not like Skype's logging system is actually good. It's just a dump of everything from a given time, but it's not organized as well as other programs organize it. I know that given the current situation Skype is the most convenient, but I think you'd have more functionality through Gchat/Talk, Mumble or both, and we wouldn't have to deal with players who make the mistake of not doing the protection setup. And setting up those utilities will actually take less time than doing the Skype protection. Basically everyone else has gone on to Mumble because the quality and footprint is so much better than Skype's, and you could do the same agreement/negotiating stuff with Google (and take advantage of stuff like Calendars and Docs) to keep everyone more informed. The only real cost is an initial cost of the switch (and the appropriate people providing Gmail information) but I think there's definite advantages in both performance and security by not using Skype. Convenience just does not seem like a compelling reason when you're at the top tier of something and seeking the best available tools. | ||
itsjustatank
Hong Kong9165 Posts
On April 18 2013 06:29 LDdota wrote: Actually, having used every piece of software I saw mentioned in this thread, I can say with confidence that Skype is way better and more convenient than the other options y'all have brought up when it comes to text-based conversations, which is by FAR the main reason everyone uses it. One of Skype's big features is that it automatically logs & syncs all your conversations across various computers / devices. It also makes everything very easy to organize, search/sort through, and look back on. I use something called IRC with a bouncer to do this, and it uses all of 3.5mb on windows (using PuTTY) to achieve this functionality. Meanwhile I see Skype using 132mb of memory to crash or hang because it can't handle the 7900 new lines of conversation being sent to me at once. On April 18 2013 06:29 LDdota wrote: IRC isn't bad either but it's got some annoying barriers to entry & flaws (examples: needing to register / protect channels to avoid random people stalking, snooping, & interrupting conversations) and isn't necessarily any more secure than Skype (it can be secure if you take precautions, but so too can using Skype). /set mode #channel +CNknst password and IRC can be used over SSL, so snooping becomes a non-issue. These are also fundamentally so much easier to implement (because they are admin-controlled) than getting each and every ironically bad-at-computers ESPORTS person to understand what a VPN or a proxy server is and then configure each and every one of their computers, connections, and devices to be safe just to use a bad program. On April 18 2013 06:29 LDdota wrote: For VOIP, I fully agree that Mumble is great, and Raidcall/TS3/Ventrilo are serviceable alternatives, but for just its chat / text messaging features, Skype really is the best tool I've seen (as well as by far the most convenient since everyone already uses it). If someone wants to program a secure esports chat client that offers all the text/chat-related functionality of Skype, I'd happily start using it and encourage other people to do the same, but I'm not going to tell everyone to go use Google Chat or IRC when they just flat-out aren't as good. What this really comes down to is you are conceding that there are alternatives, but because there is one really bad program that combines all of these functions into one slow, memory-hogging, and insecure package, you prefer it simply because it installs off one file. This is despite the fact that use of this one slow, memory-hogging, and insecure package has done uncountable and irreparable financial harm to the scene in terms of disrupting player streams and tournaments as they are conducted and will continue to do so in the future for as long as it continues to be used. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Yes, you can use different programs for this purpose, but again, it defeats the purpose of using one program that would ordinarily suit all your needs. The problem isn't that skype doesn't service players' needs. It clearly does. The problem with skype is security. No one is complaining (as far as I can tell) about its voice or chat services. Sure, there may be programs that do things individually better than skype, but that's not the main gripe with it. If it were secure, this conversation would not be happening. There is no particularly good evidence that IRC is any more secure than skype, given that security on both media requires roughly similar levels of effort on the part of the users. (thanks to TL mafia, I know for a fact that the average IRC user can be duped even with childish levels of deception) | ||
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itsjustatank
Hong Kong9165 Posts
On April 18 2013 15:24 wherebugsgo wrote: the comparison isn't justified, as afaik you can't voice chat over irc. Yes, you can use different programs for this purpose, but again, it defeats the purpose of using one program that would ordinarily suit all your needs. The problem isn't that skype doesn't service players' needs. It clearly does. The problem with skype is security. No one is complaining (as far as I can tell) about its voice or chat services. Sure, there may be programs that do things individually better than skype, but that's not the main gripe with it. If it were secure, this conversation would not be happening. There is no particularly good evidence that IRC is any more secure than skype, given that security on both media requires roughly similar levels of effort on the part of the users. (thanks to TL mafia, I know for a fact that the average IRC user can be duped even with childish levels of deception) Our arguments have built-in responses to this shallow reading:
You also simply haven't read the rest of this thread where the audio quality and latency of Skype is seriously called into question and where its ridiculous memory usage is maligned again and again. And honestly, On April 18 2013 00:43 teapoted wrote: Imagine a school/university internet connection where everyone brings their own laptop. Scenario 1: You open facebook on the computer and it explodes and you die. Scenario 2: You can open facebook as long as you spend an hour installing this patch first, if you don't, it explodes and you die. Which would result in the most deaths? Either way those who go in oblivious will fail. But in Scenario 2 there are so many more opportunities for something to go wrong and there's the expectation of safety even though something might be misconfigured. this post is a round-killing answer to any objection any of you who wish to defend Skype may have, full stop. | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
On April 18 2013 00:25 teapoted wrote: Okay I guess I'll have to go full circle on this. the ddosing only works now because they have a lot of possible targets. if they can ddos up to 10 players with no preperation or skill whatsoever, its incredible easy to disrupt the competitive scene and get a lot of attention. the ddoser wants to see the world burn, he doesnt do it just to test his script or anything. if there are next to no visible effects and only works once or twice on each target its incredible boring. like trolling on an internet forum, if the troll just gets ignored and banned from time to time without people giving him attention, he disappears. | ||
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kdgns
United States2427 Posts
Source http://bbs.17173.com/thread-7229352-1-1.html | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
On April 18 2013 15:24 wherebugsgo wrote: the comparison isn't justified, as afaik you can't voice chat over irc. Yes, you can use different programs for this purpose, but again, it defeats the purpose of using one program that would ordinarily suit all your needs. The problem isn't that skype doesn't service players' needs. It clearly does. The problem with skype is security. No one is complaining (as far as I can tell) about its voice or chat services. Sure, there may be programs that do things individually better than skype, but that's not the main gripe with it. If it were secure, this conversation would not be happening. There is no particularly good evidence that IRC is any more secure than skype, given that security on both media requires roughly similar levels of effort on the part of the users. (thanks to TL mafia, I know for a fact that the average IRC user can be duped even with childish levels of deception) Besides burning a ton of memory it also has a shitton of delay mainly because it's P2P based. Once you start adding people from different parts of the world it gets progressively worse. I don't know how could any serious gamer use Skype over something like mumble/ts/vent... Skype is good at chatting with your grandma, that's all. | ||
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