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force staff as some have mentioned can get him out of the ult.
I think disruptor is pretty good. depending on how far away he needs to come to use ulti, glimpse could be all you need to cancel it out instantly.
some small mechanical things off the top of my head for this hero, with a couple pictures:
- it seems like the ulti monkeys spawn in a pattern instead of randomly.
they form like this + Show Spoiler +
there's a hexagon in the middle and the outside monkeys are spaced around 600units apart, with the whole formation facing upwards or N based on the minimap.
and so the target that would most likely get hit the most would be in the very center where all 5 can hit.
they cannot hit anyone outside the circle no matter how close to the 300 attack range they are.
however, if at least half their hero is past the line that the circle makes, they'll get attacked.
that said, if the monkeys are able to attack, they will light up from gray and look like a slightly smaller version of MK.
- the ulti monkeys proc on-hits on their own, including maelstrom, skadi, lifesteal (doesn't matter), cleave, desolator etc. but not echo sabre double-hit. this means they can proc chain lightning, slow, negative armor, slow from echo sabre, bash, all at once.
- if you are silenced during a cast of ulti, it doesn't go on CD from what I noticed. however, if you get stunned during the cast, you'll automatically try re-casting it once you're out of stun.
- the bonus damage from 4 charges of jingu doesn't show up on your stats, but you lifesteal off that bonus damage anyway.
- and finally, I don't know where to use this yet on the dota map, but if you cast your ulti circle outside of the map (around 500 cast range), your monkeys will try to fit on the map somehow and potentially stack like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
this does not work for big groups of trees, only on the sides of the map.
also will not work in roshan pit, the monkeys will just clip inside the structure.
I guess you could do something like this when you're forced to manfight in this kind of specific area, lol.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On December 18 2016 01:17 the bear jew wrote:
Just laned solo vs this hero, what a over powered bullshit it was.
I think he might be the strongest 1v1 melee vs melee laner in the game. Most ranged laners are fine I think, especially if they got a leap or stun to get out of the treejump slow, but melee heroes like tide and timber that normally stomp physical melee damage dealers get crushed by MK.
On December 18 2016 08:17 nanaoei wrote:force staff as some have mentioned can get him out of the ult. I think disruptor is pretty good. depending on how far away he needs to come to use ulti, glimpse could be all you need to cancel it out instantly. some small mechanical things off the top of my head for this hero, with a couple pictures: - it seems like the ulti monkeys spawn in a pattern instead of randomly. they form like this + Show Spoiler +there's a hexagon in the middle and the outside monkeys are spaced around 600units apart, with the whole formation facing upwards or N based on the minimap. and so the target that would most likely get hit the most would be in the very center where all 5 can hit. they cannot hit anyone outside the circle no matter how close to the 300 attack range they are. however, if at least half their hero is past the line that the circle makes, they'll get attacked. that said, if the monkeys are able to attack, they will light up from gray and look like a slightly smaller version of MK. - the ulti monkeys proc on-hits on their own, including maelstrom, skadi, lifesteal (doesn't matter), cleave, desolator etc. but not echo sabre double-hit. this means they can proc chain lightning, slow, negative armor, slow from echo sabre, bash, all at once. - if you are silenced during a cast of ulti, it doesn't go on CD from what I noticed. however, if you get stunned during the cast, you'll automatically try re-casting it once you're out of stun. - the bonus damage from 4 charges of jingu doesn't show up on your stats, but you lifesteal off that bonus damage anyway. - and finally, I don't know where to use this yet on the dota map, but if you cast your ulti circle outside of the map (around 500 cast range), your monkeys will try to fit on the map somehow and potentially stack like this: + Show Spoiler +this does not work for big groups of trees, only on the sides of the map. also will not work in roshan pit, the monkeys will just clip inside the structure. I guess you could do something like this when you're forced to manfight in this kind of specific area, lol. + Show Spoiler +
interesting stuff, thank you.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On December 18 2016 08:17 nanaoei wrote:
- if you are silenced during a cast of ulti, it doesn't go on CD from what I noticed. however, if you get stunned during the cast, you'll automatically try re-casting it once you're out of stun.
yeah it's just a typical ability with a long cast time like furion tp or sf ult
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I've been liking mask of madness, maelstrom and bkb for him. After using ulti and Q most game i don't get any other spells off anyways, since any dot prevent him jumping to the trees. The aspd boost of MoM and the lighting procs seem to work pretty well for me.
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The hero's itemization is fairly interesting. His e and q, while synergizing, don't synergize with the same items.
I assume that we will end up with two item builds at the end of the day, one more tanky AS-heavy one that goes into the fights and tries to stay long enough to maximize his uptime on E and one that is more a pseudo-ember with a lot of right-click-damage who roams and bursts people and throws long-range-Qs into the fight.
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Yeah.
I don't see the hero being used in competitive. I mean, his place seems to be in the offlane, yet he does not provide much utility. He needs gold to shine. Be it from successful ganks, or from farm, he needs gold. But in a serious match, or in competitive anyway, the offlaner doesnt get jack.
I don't know, I feel he really shines in a pub environement because people are more inclined to just go afk farm on their own. And the supports less inclined to ward/sentry all map for said farmers. Free food for MK, just like for any invis hero really.
But in a game where a team is willing to control their portion of the map, rotate their supports, assist with ganks, hell, even pick visage or beastmaster... no more free gold for MK. And since he doesn't bring much utility... well, I'm not sure what he does, then.
***
But yeah, in the chaos that is a public game, he gets his gold, and I agree with what you say, 2 ways of itemizing him (AS+tank or sheer dmg). I like phase->vanguard->deso->abyssal personally. Not the most flashy thing, but it brings some utility. The bash works well with his passive / ult too.
I didn't try many luxury items but Butterfly is decent, some dps, some tankiness, some AS. Bkb on bkb games. And divine(s) on stomps.
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On December 18 2016 08:17 nanaoei wrote:
force staff as some have mentioned can get him out of the ult.
It takes two force staffs to reliably remove him from the ult, unless you catch him facing the near edge. But force staff also counters most of the rest of his kit.
Monkey King hits someone more than once in a row? Force Staff.
Monkey King drops a full-channeled slow on someone? Force Staff.
Monkey King jumps into a tree? Break it with Force Staff.
However, I don't know how to deal with the Boundless Strike combo.
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People who called this hero op are generally ones got 1 hit by his Boundless strike 
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On December 18 2016 13:13 Murlox wrote:
Yeah.
I don't see the hero being used in competitive. I mean, his place seems to be in the offlane, yet he does not provide much utility. He needs gold to shine. Be it from successful ganks, or from farm, he needs gold. But in a serious match, or in competitive anyway, the offlaner doesnt get jack.
I don't know, I feel he really shines in a pub environement because people are more inclined to just go afk farm on their own. And the supports less inclined to ward/sentry all map for said farmers. Free food for MK, just like for any invis hero really.
But in a game where a team is willing to control their portion of the map, rotate their supports, assist with ganks, hell, even pick visage or beastmaster... no more free gold for MK. And since he doesn't bring much utility... well, I'm not sure what he does, then.
***
But yeah, in the chaos that is a public game, he gets his gold, and I agree with what you say, 2 ways of itemizing him (AS+tank or sheer dmg). I like phase->vanguard->deso->abyssal personally. Not the most flashy thing, but it brings some utility. The bash works well with his passive / ult too.
I didn't try many luxury items but Butterfly is decent, some dps, some tankiness, some AS. Bkb on bkb games. And divine(s) on stomps.
@position: Dunno, like most invis heroes he's an excellent roaming support. Free wards at spots where you don't expect them and a high aoe-nuke with slow to gank sidelanes with. He's like bounty that starts at lvl 2.
Also has a fairly high survival rate when popping smokes compared to invis heroes.
In difference to most invis heroes he can't gank mid that well without smoke, but his sheer snowball potential is pretty nice as well. And Q is still a long range aoe high damage 2 second stun in teamfights.
Also I can still see him be played as a core along something like OD, Disruptor or Tide.
He's mainly played offlane cause he crushes lanes often, I don't think it's impossible to play him as a mid or safelane carry.
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Hard to see him being better than alternatives at the 4/5 position.
I think he needs to be position 1/2 and laned against someone he can dominate while you proceed to build him as survivable and with as many on-hit effects as possible.
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I'm not sure about the roaming stuff. Yes he does give a lot of vision, flying vision too so that's nice, but aside from that, he doesn't have utility. A 1 second stun on a 20 sec CD... and yeah, an AOE slow, but it requires setup and it leaves you exposed.
If you look at the classic roamers, BH gives vision, more vision (track) and gold, he can harass (low CDs). Riki too, gives AOE silence / pseudo-disarm aswell. Ogre gives stun, slow, dot, buff, doesn't need gold. Mirana gives long stuns, she can get ez farm anyway while roaming. Etc really.
If they don't do well - if they don't snowball - they don't become useless. They still have a) utility b) a way to get gold c) both.
I mean, yeah, maybe teams will experiment with a roaming MK, with a lineup built around it, why not. Seems risky to me, because if he doesn't snowball, well, a poor MK doesn't give you much, compared to other roamers with actual utility.
It's probably not impossible to run him as a position 1 but would you pick him over antimage / jugg / luna in a game where there's money on the line? I would not.
As for mid, I don't know. There's no tree mid. Maybe to counter certain picks he can be good (like a melee mid).
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Lalalaland34502 Posts
I've won 7 out of my 8 games of MK heh
Hero's a little strong
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On December 18 2016 23:51 Murlox wrote:
I'm not sure about the roaming stuff. Yes he does give a lot of vision, flying vision too so that's nice, but aside from that, he doesn't have utility. A 1 second stun on a 20 sec CD... and yeah, an AOE slow, but it requires setup and it leaves you exposed.
If you look at the classic roamers, BH gives vision, more vision (track) and gold, he can harass (low CDs). Riki too, gives AOE silence / pseudo-disarm aswell. Ogre gives stun, slow, dot, buff, doesn't need gold. Mirana gives long stuns, she can get ez farm anyway while roaming. Etc really.
If they don't do well - if they don't snowball - they don't become useless. They still have a) utility b) a way to get gold c) both.
I mean, yeah, maybe teams will experiment with a roaming MK, with a lineup built around it, why not. Seems risky to me, because if he doesn't snowball, well, a poor MK doesn't give you much, compared to other roamers with actual utility.
As for mid, I don't know. There's no tree mid. Maybe to counter certain picks he can be good (like a melee mid).
Bounty and riki are both fairly useless if they don't snowball. I'd rather have an underleveled MK than an underleveled riki. MK can at least farm jungle camps to catch up and provides an aoe stun. Once he has some farm he can flank in fights and burst the backline.
MK is also harder to vision counter cause obs are limited and the spots that give vision over him are very limited as well.
Mirana and ogre can't do a lot of stuff MK can do in the vision department, ogre is an entirely different hero altogether.
His aoe slow doesn't need a setup unless you are chasing and bounty f.e. is stranded as well if he gets dusted.
On December 18 2016 23:51 Murlox wrote:
It's probably not impossible to run him as a position 1 but would you pick him over antimage / jugg / luna in a game where there's money on the line? I would not.
... because AM Jugg and Luna are similar in what regard? Comparable heroes I'd count would be Clinkz, Ursa and PA, not heroes that farm for 30 minutes and want to fight exactly once every 2 minutes in between.
And yeah, I'd consider MK over PA or Ursa.
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On December 18 2016 23:51 Murlox wrote:
I'm not sure about the roaming stuff. Yes he does give a lot of vision, flying vision too so that's nice, but aside from that, he doesn't have utility. A 1 second stun on a 20 sec CD... and yeah, an AOE slow, but it requires setup and it leaves you exposed.
If you look at the classic roamers, BH gives vision, more vision (track) and gold, he can harass (low CDs). Riki too, gives AOE silence / pseudo-disarm aswell. Ogre gives stun, slow, dot, buff, doesn't need gold. Mirana gives long stuns, she can get ez farm anyway while roaming. Etc really.
If they don't do well - if they don't snowball - they don't become useless. They still have a) utility b) a way to get gold c) both.
I mean, yeah, maybe teams will experiment with a roaming MK, with a lineup built around it, why not. Seems risky to me, because if he doesn't snowball, well, a poor MK doesn't give you much, compared to other roamers with actual utility.
It's probably not impossible to run him as a position 1 but would you pick him over antimage / jugg / luna in a game where there's money on the line? I would not.
As for mid, I don't know. There's no tree mid. Maybe to counter certain picks he can be good (like a melee mid).
whats your mmr ?
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i think he's pretty easy to balanced.just start with nerfing jingu mastery.thats where all his damage came from. tree dance are fine,its ok to have that kind of mobillity since he's so squishy
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Honestly that he's "so squishy" isn't true at all. He's not tanky, but he has more strength and the same growth as Luna, a hero I'd consider average. He still got 3 base armor and good agi gain (6th tied with tb), so he isn't squishy on the physical side either.
He has 30 range less than Luna btw, two times as much as other melee heroes, so the ranged argument doesn't really count except for building dragon lance.
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Boots first mid feels quite powerful, just punch the opposing mid and zone them off of csing, they can't really trade hits unless a baby sitting support helps them out.
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On December 19 2016 17:13 Archeon wrote:
Honestly that he's "so squishy" isn't true at all. He's not tanky, but he has more strength and the same growth as Luna, a hero I'd consider average. He still got 3 base armor and good agi gain (6th tied with tb), so he isn't squishy on the physical side either.
He has 30 range less than Luna btw, two times as much as other melee heroes, so the ranged argument doesn't really count except for building dragon lance.
Isn't one of Luna's biggest weaknesses being squishy? And her item build is generally oriented around increasing her tank.
Plus apples to oranges. Luna is a hero that charges in a group of 5 down lanes, or farms in safe places. And in most fights, her range is not her auto-attack (and Dragon Lance is standard now, so that's not really an "except"), but her Lucent Beam and Eclipse range.
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this hero's bonkers
and i spam arc warden
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So the build now is max Jingu and Boundless with 1 in Tree Dance right? Stronger crit and longer stun is better than the slow and magic damage from Tree Dance so it's just a 1 point wonder in mobility by comparison.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/DYXEpec.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/IrL1yq5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ttsOVWe.jpg)
