"Always in search of a good fight, Monkey King travels atop the trees aiming to spring from leafy cover and surprise his enemies. Calling upon an army of monkey soldiers to overwhelm opponents, this agile trickster revels in the chaos of battle, ready to slam his legendary staff down on any hopes of escape."
Talent Tree
+5 Armor OR +20 Attack Speed
+20 Movement Speed OR +275 Health
+15 Strength OR +40 Damage
+100% Boundless Strike Crit OR +25% Magic Resistance
Skills
Boundless Strike Monkey King enlarges his staff and slams it against the ground, stunning enemies in a line and damaging them with a critical hit based on his attack. Has True Strike.
Tree Dance Monkey King jumps to a tree and perches atop it. While perched, he gains the Primal Spring ability—a channeled leap attack. If Monkey King's tree is destroyed, he falls and is stunned for 4 seconds. Taking damage from enemy heroes while on the ground puts Tree Jump on cooldown.
Primal Spring Monkey King springs out from his tree perch, damaging and slowing enemies in the area where he lands. Damage and slow amounts are in proportion to channel duration.
Jingu Mastery Monkey King's attacks awaken the Jingu Bang's power. Upon the fourth hit on the same enemy hero, Monkey King earns four charged attacks that have bonus damage and lifesteal.
Wukong's Command Monkey King creates a circular formation of soldiers that spread out from his position. If Monkey King leaves the area his soldiers disperse. The soldiers have Monkey King's attack and only target heroes. Monkey King and all his soldiers receive bonus damage for the spell's duration.
Mischief Changes Monkey King's shape to deceive opponents, using the environment nearby as inspiration for the disguise. Taking damage, attacking, or using any item or ability breaks Monkey King's disguise.
So what's everyone's thoughts so far? I'm definitely feeling this hero for either mid vs a melee hero, or safelane carry. Very strong 1v1 laner with max E, followed by max Q with value point in W. For items, phase and echo sabre feel core but other than that I've been playing around with shadow blade, drums, sny, blink, aquila.
what ppl seem to forget is his extremly high attack range for being melee, making him one of the absolute best 1v1.
i dont like shadowblade on him, echosabre is godly fixes his mana regen, buffs his jingu mastery and you really dont want to much AS instead of dmg on mk becuse of his boundless strike.
he is alright mid but problem is no tree:s i rather see him jungle offlane than as a safelane carry.
Everyone suggest him to be mid or safelane but I see MK as a roam pos4 space creator, map controller. I think he has similarities with earth spirit in that sense. It seems he can scale well with the items even though his skill set is pretty strong with levels.
Saw zai play mk pos 4 starting with orb of venom. He moves around the map through trees and warding behind t1s. He maxed the jump-to-the-ground-dealing-damage-thing and the slam after. level 4 he picked the passive because even if he didn't proc (they killed everyone too fast) it was still valuable. The rest of the game doesn't count too much, it was a stomp.
i feel that his q is way to powerful id rather see it lowered cd and less dmg on it. reason is if you have both passive active and ult and stun you can one shot the entire opponent team with ease its just hillarious how much damage it deals, and i would also se his attack stack also work on minions however give it a slight nerf so that its more hits requiered and it gives him less damage and lifesteal to build it up pre gank or teamfight in some way,
this guy with ult and passive procc active deals more damage then a well geared tidebringer hit from kunnka or a well geared ember plus it stuns downside is it has a huge cooldown, but the burst its just way to big. i even think kunnka and ember:s aoe nuke is stupid this is way worse, its insane in earlygame and scales better.
So my problem with him is his Q ability somthing needs to happen here. it already deals insane damage without ult or passive with those two its broken beyond redemption.
I played a game earlier today with HotD, ptreads, sny into an AC @ 4k. it seemed to work well -- you just want enough health to stay around and fight. maybe even crimson guard on him? you just rely on getting jingu procs off and healing back to full. I dont think you need echo sabre to accomplish this, especially when you hit harder via sny + maim
Echo sabre gives you much needed mana regen. I think phase boots and echo sabre are the way to go, and after that rush MKB since what the fuck else are you gonna get on the monkey king
On December 15 2016 18:25 Firebolt145 wrote: Echo sabre gives you much needed mana regen. I think phase boots and echo sabre are the way to go, and after that rush MKB since what the fuck else are you gonna get on the monkey king
Defensive items like bkb or stats item to tank up, so you can stand in your OP circle of death without getting bursted down.
people need 2 weeks to figure out counters and ways to play around him, and then he wont be a problem. A slight tweak might be necessary.
I'm sure that a lot of people are also playing him sub-optimally though, I expect that winrate to climb and his pickrate to drop.
48℅ on a hero people no practice with or know how to play, seems OP to me dawg...Icefrog has always made new concept heroes OP though. I remember megabuff Puck when it first came out . He just wants people to give these weird heroes a try and then switches to nerf hammer quickly like with pick, Ember, earth spirit, warden...
people need 2 weeks to figure out counters and ways to play around him, and then he wont be a problem. A slight tweak might be necessary.
I'm sure that a lot of people are also playing him sub-optimally though, I expect that winrate to climb and his pickrate to drop.
48℅ on a hero people no practice with or know how to play, seems OP to me dawg...Icefrog has always made new concept heroes OP though. I remember megabuff Puck when it first came out . He just wants people to give these weird heroes a try and then switches to nerf hammer quickly like with pick, Ember, earth spirit, warden...
valve is not always quick, sometimes it takes months to fix some obvious strong heroes(new spirits, legion etc..).
This hero is literally broken as a roamer pos 4. Equivalent to free maphack and invis, then comes with a jump that gives 40% slow + oov. It requires team to give you farm priority later on though, so it might be harder to pull off in pubs.
Also have a "fissure" spell that is the entire kit of earthshaker before blink.
48% winrate on a new hero is pretty insane. I remember Arc Warden getting 35% the first week of release. And AW turned out to be incredibly strong and received huge nerfs every patch.
On December 16 2016 20:56 cuckoo wrote: How are you guys countering him? And I don't mean the destroying trees thingy. Sure that seems important, but I don't know good cores against him.
Drow? Viper? I think maybe PL and Ench are good against him aswell?
For me, the most broken thing about the hero right now is the lifesteal. It shouldn't even exist, being 50% makes it kinda absurd really
Mostly just play against him like he's a really scary ursa-like hero, so perma-stun him and kite him. Don't let him hit you unless you're ursa yourself (ursa >>>>>>> Mk 1v1). Understand his skillset, e.g. juke side to side to dodge his Q, don't let him hit you multiple times, don't stand in his ultimate.
This dude is definitely OP, but people suck ass at playing him. I've seen one guy use him to his full potential, and he destroyed the other team. I think the game ended with him like 18-1. His ult is absurd in a big teamfight, and it does so much damage. He seems fun, but definitely broken if not countered properly.
I feel the thing about this hero is that he's really really weak when caught out. No escape skills and his stand-your-ground-and-manfight skill (his ult) doesn't do as much in those first few seconds as something like Eclipse.
I said this in the other thread, but I really hope they nerf his attack range or reduce his base movement speed, because his ability to run people down lv 2 is bullshit, the rest is fine imo.
On December 16 2016 23:24 Ayaz2810 wrote: This dude is definitely OP, but people suck ass at playing him. I've seen one guy use him to his full potential, and he destroyed the other team. I think the game ended with him like 18-1. His ult is absurd in a big teamfight, and it does so much damage. He seems fun, but definitely broken if not countered properly.
Ferrari_430 finished a game 34/2 yesterday, playing offlane. it was funny seeing 50 - 12 and he having 34 kills in 25~min
I honestly got so messed up when I laned against a treant protector, I never felt safe against his QW combo, it was a little embarrassing to say the least
On December 16 2016 20:56 cuckoo wrote: How are you guys countering him? And I don't mean the destroying trees thingy. Sure that seems important, but I don't know good cores against him.
Drow? Viper? I think maybe PL and Ench are good against him aswell?
For me, the most broken thing about the hero right now is the lifesteal. It shouldn't even exist, being 50% makes it kinda absurd really
Certainly not ench. Unless you like getting one-shotted by his Q. A go-to anti MK hero is clock. Decent HP pool, blademail user, rocket to scout tree shenanigans, if you hit him with a rocket when he's atop a tree, you get an easy hook since he can't move for three seconds, he has no escape inside your cogs and he doesn't like to build f-staff. His ult cast point his ridiculously long, battery assault will prevent it.
Any long DOT wrecks him and makes it so he can't get into the trees. Also, he has pretty shitty AOE overall I played a couple games against him last night, one versus viper and clock and another vs lycan and visage. All of them had good ways to make sure I couldn't just blast away into trees easily. MK is much better on the attack than on defense - jingu sustain takes a couple seconds to kick in, which really sucks if you get initiated on first.
Reading some of the comments here, I feel like you could say the same about basically any hero in dota. Just imagine some of these heroes were just released :
OD : omg I get astraled all the time, I can't do ANYTHING, and he also gets last hits with it because is dmg in AOE. Also he has free mana. lulz.
Clockwerk : omfg you can't cast anything with his BS battery assault. No skill hero, just runs at you and GG. Then hookshot you from fog. Cogs are broken as fuck, you just can't fight.
Riki : like, this guy is always invisible. You don't even know if he's in lane. How is that balanced, srsly?! Invulnerable during his ult too, because why not.
VS : so this support gets a reliable stun, a fucking scaling dmg aura AND she can basically swap your core every team fight, winning the game. WP OSfrog.
Faceless void : so if he ults your whole team dies. That's like giving black hole to a fucking core. On a shorter CD. Smart thinking. There's no counter to that, if the game gets late, you will lose. Please remove.
And so on. There are juicier ones, too. Slark, Jugg, PA, zeus. Om nom nom.
So yeah MK is strong, a lot of heroes are. Learn his patterns, even better, play him for a couple of games. You'll see he has weaknesses, too.
On December 18 2016 05:02 Murlox wrote: Reading some of the comments here, I feel like you could say the same about basically any hero in dota. Just imagine some of these heroes were just released :
OD : omg I get astraled all the time, I can't do ANYTHING, and he also gets last hits with it because is dmg in AOE. Also he has free mana. lulz.
Clockwerk : omfg you can't cast anything with his BS battery assault. No skill hero, just runs at you and GG. Then hookshot you from fog. Cogs are broken as fuck, you just can't fight.
Riki : like, this guy is always invisible. You don't even know if he's in lane. How is that balanced, srsly?! Invulnerable during his ult too, because why not.
VS : so this support gets a reliable stun, a fucking scaling dmg aura AND she can basically swap your core every team fight, winning the game. WP OSfrog.
Faceless void : so if he ults your whole team dies. That's like giving black hole to a fucking core. On a shorter CD. Smart thinking. There's no counter to that, if the game gets late, you will lose. Please remove.
And so on. There are juicier ones, too. Slark, Jugg, PA, zeus. Om nom nom.
So yeah MK is strong, a lot of heroes are. Learn his patterns, even better, play him for a couple of games. You'll see he has weaknesses, too.
Imagine if they released Tiny as a new hero today. OMG ava/toss combo insta-kill so OP. Takes rax in 5 secs can't do anything icefrog pls nerf
MK is def very strong right now and will likely get some nerfs...but I don't think he's especially broken or OP. I think if you take a little bit of damage or even just back-load the scaling of Jingu, and maybe raise the mana cost of his Q and W, the hero becomes significantly less strong and can't snowball in the laning phase. That, and maybe jingu charges should have a timer on them...or at least have some visual indicator for opponents letting them know that MK has jingu charges available
Effective ways of dealing with him that I've seen are chain disables (he's relatively squishy if you can prevent him from getting the 50% lifesteal from jingu), flying vision/tree clear (bat rider, timber, beast master), urn of shadows (can't hop into trees during fight), and force staff
force staff as some have mentioned can get him out of the ult. I think disruptor is pretty good. depending on how far away he needs to come to use ulti, glimpse could be all you need to cancel it out instantly.
some small mechanical things off the top of my head for this hero, with a couple pictures: - it seems like the ulti monkeys spawn in a pattern instead of randomly. they form like this + Show Spoiler +
there's a hexagon in the middle and the outside monkeys are spaced around 600units apart, with the whole formation facing upwards or N based on the minimap. and so the target that would most likely get hit the most would be in the very center where all 5 can hit. they cannot hit anyone outside the circle no matter how close to the 300 attack range they are. however, if at least half their hero is past the line that the circle makes, they'll get attacked. that said, if the monkeys are able to attack, they will light up from gray and look like a slightly smaller version of MK.
- the ulti monkeys proc on-hits on their own, including maelstrom, skadi, lifesteal (doesn't matter), cleave, desolator etc. but not echo sabre double-hit. this means they can proc chain lightning, slow, negative armor, slow from echo sabre, bash, all at once.
- if you are silenced during a cast of ulti, it doesn't go on CD from what I noticed. however, if you get stunned during the cast, you'll automatically try re-casting it once you're out of stun.
- the bonus damage from 4 charges of jingu doesn't show up on your stats, but you lifesteal off that bonus damage anyway.
- and finally, I don't know where to use this yet on the dota map, but if you cast your ulti circle outside of the map (around 500 cast range), your monkeys will try to fit on the map somehow and potentially stack like this: + Show Spoiler +
this does not work for big groups of trees, only on the sides of the map. also will not work in roshan pit, the monkeys will just clip inside the structure. I guess you could do something like this when you're forced to manfight in this kind of specific area, lol. + Show Spoiler +
On December 18 2016 01:17 the bear jew wrote: Just laned solo vs this hero, what a over powered bullshit it was.
I think he might be the strongest 1v1 melee vs melee laner in the game. Most ranged laners are fine I think, especially if they got a leap or stun to get out of the treejump slow, but melee heroes like tide and timber that normally stomp physical melee damage dealers get crushed by MK.
On December 18 2016 08:17 nanaoei wrote: force staff as some have mentioned can get him out of the ult. I think disruptor is pretty good. depending on how far away he needs to come to use ulti, glimpse could be all you need to cancel it out instantly.
some small mechanical things off the top of my head for this hero, with a couple pictures: - it seems like the ulti monkeys spawn in a pattern instead of randomly. they form like this + Show Spoiler +
there's a hexagon in the middle and the outside monkeys are spaced around 600units apart, with the whole formation facing upwards or N based on the minimap. and so the target that would most likely get hit the most would be in the very center where all 5 can hit. they cannot hit anyone outside the circle no matter how close to the 300 attack range they are. however, if at least half their hero is past the line that the circle makes, they'll get attacked. that said, if the monkeys are able to attack, they will light up from gray and look like a slightly smaller version of MK.
- the ulti monkeys proc on-hits on their own, including maelstrom, skadi, lifesteal (doesn't matter), cleave, desolator etc. but not echo sabre double-hit. this means they can proc chain lightning, slow, negative armor, slow from echo sabre, bash, all at once.
- if you are silenced during a cast of ulti, it doesn't go on CD from what I noticed. however, if you get stunned during the cast, you'll automatically try re-casting it once you're out of stun.
- the bonus damage from 4 charges of jingu doesn't show up on your stats, but you lifesteal off that bonus damage anyway.
- and finally, I don't know where to use this yet on the dota map, but if you cast your ulti circle outside of the map (around 500 cast range), your monkeys will try to fit on the map somehow and potentially stack like this: + Show Spoiler +
this does not work for big groups of trees, only on the sides of the map. also will not work in roshan pit, the monkeys will just clip inside the structure. I guess you could do something like this when you're forced to manfight in this kind of specific area, lol. + Show Spoiler +
On December 18 2016 08:17 nanaoei wrote: - if you are silenced during a cast of ulti, it doesn't go on CD from what I noticed. however, if you get stunned during the cast, you'll automatically try re-casting it once you're out of stun.
yeah it's just a typical ability with a long cast time like furion tp or sf ult
I've been liking mask of madness, maelstrom and bkb for him. After using ulti and Q most game i don't get any other spells off anyways, since any dot prevent him jumping to the trees. The aspd boost of MoM and the lighting procs seem to work pretty well for me.
The hero's itemization is fairly interesting. His e and q, while synergizing, don't synergize with the same items. I assume that we will end up with two item builds at the end of the day, one more tanky AS-heavy one that goes into the fights and tries to stay long enough to maximize his uptime on E and one that is more a pseudo-ember with a lot of right-click-damage who roams and bursts people and throws long-range-Qs into the fight.
I don't see the hero being used in competitive. I mean, his place seems to be in the offlane, yet he does not provide much utility. He needs gold to shine. Be it from successful ganks, or from farm, he needs gold. But in a serious match, or in competitive anyway, the offlaner doesnt get jack.
I don't know, I feel he really shines in a pub environement because people are more inclined to just go afk farm on their own. And the supports less inclined to ward/sentry all map for said farmers. Free food for MK, just like for any invis hero really.
But in a game where a team is willing to control their portion of the map, rotate their supports, assist with ganks, hell, even pick visage or beastmaster... no more free gold for MK. And since he doesn't bring much utility... well, I'm not sure what he does, then.
***
But yeah, in the chaos that is a public game, he gets his gold, and I agree with what you say, 2 ways of itemizing him (AS+tank or sheer dmg). I like phase->vanguard->deso->abyssal personally. Not the most flashy thing, but it brings some utility. The bash works well with his passive / ult too.
I didn't try many luxury items but Butterfly is decent, some dps, some tankiness, some AS. Bkb on bkb games. And divine(s) on stomps.
On December 18 2016 08:17 nanaoei wrote: force staff as some have mentioned can get him out of the ult.
It takes two force staffs to reliably remove him from the ult, unless you catch him facing the near edge. But force staff also counters most of the rest of his kit.
Monkey King hits someone more than once in a row? Force Staff. Monkey King drops a full-channeled slow on someone? Force Staff. Monkey King jumps into a tree? Break it with Force Staff.
However, I don't know how to deal with the Boundless Strike combo.
I don't see the hero being used in competitive. I mean, his place seems to be in the offlane, yet he does not provide much utility. He needs gold to shine. Be it from successful ganks, or from farm, he needs gold. But in a serious match, or in competitive anyway, the offlaner doesnt get jack.
I don't know, I feel he really shines in a pub environement because people are more inclined to just go afk farm on their own. And the supports less inclined to ward/sentry all map for said farmers. Free food for MK, just like for any invis hero really.
But in a game where a team is willing to control their portion of the map, rotate their supports, assist with ganks, hell, even pick visage or beastmaster... no more free gold for MK. And since he doesn't bring much utility... well, I'm not sure what he does, then.
***
But yeah, in the chaos that is a public game, he gets his gold, and I agree with what you say, 2 ways of itemizing him (AS+tank or sheer dmg). I like phase->vanguard->deso->abyssal personally. Not the most flashy thing, but it brings some utility. The bash works well with his passive / ult too.
I didn't try many luxury items but Butterfly is decent, some dps, some tankiness, some AS. Bkb on bkb games. And divine(s) on stomps.
@position: Dunno, like most invis heroes he's an excellent roaming support. Free wards at spots where you don't expect them and a high aoe-nuke with slow to gank sidelanes with. He's like bounty that starts at lvl 2. Also has a fairly high survival rate when popping smokes compared to invis heroes.
In difference to most invis heroes he can't gank mid that well without smoke, but his sheer snowball potential is pretty nice as well. And Q is still a long range aoe high damage 2 second stun in teamfights.
Also I can still see him be played as a core along something like OD, Disruptor or Tide.
He's mainly played offlane cause he crushes lanes often, I don't think it's impossible to play him as a mid or safelane carry.
Hard to see him being better than alternatives at the 4/5 position.
I think he needs to be position 1/2 and laned against someone he can dominate while you proceed to build him as survivable and with as many on-hit effects as possible.
I'm not sure about the roaming stuff. Yes he does give a lot of vision, flying vision too so that's nice, but aside from that, he doesn't have utility. A 1 second stun on a 20 sec CD... and yeah, an AOE slow, but it requires setup and it leaves you exposed.
If you look at the classic roamers, BH gives vision, more vision (track) and gold, he can harass (low CDs). Riki too, gives AOE silence / pseudo-disarm aswell. Ogre gives stun, slow, dot, buff, doesn't need gold. Mirana gives long stuns, she can get ez farm anyway while roaming. Etc really.
If they don't do well - if they don't snowball - they don't become useless. They still have a) utility b) a way to get gold c) both.
I mean, yeah, maybe teams will experiment with a roaming MK, with a lineup built around it, why not. Seems risky to me, because if he doesn't snowball, well, a poor MK doesn't give you much, compared to other roamers with actual utility.
It's probably not impossible to run him as a position 1 but would you pick him over antimage / jugg / luna in a game where there's money on the line? I would not.
As for mid, I don't know. There's no tree mid. Maybe to counter certain picks he can be good (like a melee mid).
On December 18 2016 23:51 Murlox wrote: I'm not sure about the roaming stuff. Yes he does give a lot of vision, flying vision too so that's nice, but aside from that, he doesn't have utility. A 1 second stun on a 20 sec CD... and yeah, an AOE slow, but it requires setup and it leaves you exposed.
If you look at the classic roamers, BH gives vision, more vision (track) and gold, he can harass (low CDs). Riki too, gives AOE silence / pseudo-disarm aswell. Ogre gives stun, slow, dot, buff, doesn't need gold. Mirana gives long stuns, she can get ez farm anyway while roaming. Etc really.
If they don't do well - if they don't snowball - they don't become useless. They still have a) utility b) a way to get gold c) both.
I mean, yeah, maybe teams will experiment with a roaming MK, with a lineup built around it, why not. Seems risky to me, because if he doesn't snowball, well, a poor MK doesn't give you much, compared to other roamers with actual utility.
As for mid, I don't know. There's no tree mid. Maybe to counter certain picks he can be good (like a melee mid).
Bounty and riki are both fairly useless if they don't snowball. I'd rather have an underleveled MK than an underleveled riki. MK can at least farm jungle camps to catch up and provides an aoe stun. Once he has some farm he can flank in fights and burst the backline. MK is also harder to vision counter cause obs are limited and the spots that give vision over him are very limited as well. Mirana and ogre can't do a lot of stuff MK can do in the vision department, ogre is an entirely different hero altogether.
His aoe slow doesn't need a setup unless you are chasing and bounty f.e. is stranded as well if he gets dusted.
On December 18 2016 23:51 Murlox wrote: It's probably not impossible to run him as a position 1 but would you pick him over antimage / jugg / luna in a game where there's money on the line? I would not.
... because AM Jugg and Luna are similar in what regard? Comparable heroes I'd count would be Clinkz, Ursa and PA, not heroes that farm for 30 minutes and want to fight exactly once every 2 minutes in between.
On December 18 2016 23:51 Murlox wrote: I'm not sure about the roaming stuff. Yes he does give a lot of vision, flying vision too so that's nice, but aside from that, he doesn't have utility. A 1 second stun on a 20 sec CD... and yeah, an AOE slow, but it requires setup and it leaves you exposed.
If you look at the classic roamers, BH gives vision, more vision (track) and gold, he can harass (low CDs). Riki too, gives AOE silence / pseudo-disarm aswell. Ogre gives stun, slow, dot, buff, doesn't need gold. Mirana gives long stuns, she can get ez farm anyway while roaming. Etc really.
If they don't do well - if they don't snowball - they don't become useless. They still have a) utility b) a way to get gold c) both.
I mean, yeah, maybe teams will experiment with a roaming MK, with a lineup built around it, why not. Seems risky to me, because if he doesn't snowball, well, a poor MK doesn't give you much, compared to other roamers with actual utility.
It's probably not impossible to run him as a position 1 but would you pick him over antimage / jugg / luna in a game where there's money on the line? I would not.
As for mid, I don't know. There's no tree mid. Maybe to counter certain picks he can be good (like a melee mid).
i think he's pretty easy to balanced.just start with nerfing jingu mastery.thats where all his damage came from. tree dance are fine,its ok to have that kind of mobillity since he's so squishy
Honestly that he's "so squishy" isn't true at all. He's not tanky, but he has more strength and the same growth as Luna, a hero I'd consider average. He still got 3 base armor and good agi gain (6th tied with tb), so he isn't squishy on the physical side either.
He has 30 range less than Luna btw, two times as much as other melee heroes, so the ranged argument doesn't really count except for building dragon lance.
Boots first mid feels quite powerful, just punch the opposing mid and zone them off of csing, they can't really trade hits unless a baby sitting support helps them out.
On December 19 2016 17:13 Archeon wrote: Honestly that he's "so squishy" isn't true at all. He's not tanky, but he has more strength and the same growth as Luna, a hero I'd consider average. He still got 3 base armor and good agi gain (6th tied with tb), so he isn't squishy on the physical side either.
He has 30 range less than Luna btw, two times as much as other melee heroes, so the ranged argument doesn't really count except for building dragon lance.
Isn't one of Luna's biggest weaknesses being squishy? And her item build is generally oriented around increasing her tank.
Plus apples to oranges. Luna is a hero that charges in a group of 5 down lanes, or farms in safe places. And in most fights, her range is not her auto-attack (and Dragon Lance is standard now, so that's not really an "except"), but her Lucent Beam and Eclipse range.
So the build now is max Jingu and Boundless with 1 in Tree Dance right? Stronger crit and longer stun is better than the slow and magic damage from Tree Dance so it's just a 1 point wonder in mobility by comparison.
On December 25 2016 10:07 aeroblaster wrote: So the build now is max Jingu and Boundless with 1 in Tree Dance right? Stronger crit and longer stun is better than the slow and magic damage from Tree Dance so it's just a 1 point wonder in mobility by comparison.
I monkey king is like really really bad, if you dont feed this retard in lane if hes core, then u are going be good going into team fights late because hero is fucking shit in big 5v5 team fights.
The key to fighting Monkey King is that if you see him in a lane, or setting up in trees, just dont waste your time to find him and just go to where your friends are or other shit and ball or farm in proximity to each other. Then go gank him when hes farming lanes because its the easiest hero to gank in the world as long as hes not setting up in trees.
Atm I've begun maxing Jingu Mastery first by default, and then going for Boundless Strike if it's allowing you to burst heroes down or you need the stun, or for Tree Dance if you're just farming.
Treads should be the preferred boots over phase with how Jingu mastery works. There's no real need for movespeed when you have a skill to close gaps easily together with a 300 range melee oov slow. Treads attack speed = much higher dps, and faster charge up to lifesteal when manfighting.
I haven't lost a single game of ursa vs MK yet. Bears > monkeys on the food chain.
On December 25 2016 21:14 Kaj wrote: I monkey king is like really really bad, if you dont feed this retard in lane if hes core, then u are going be good going into team fights late because hero is fucking shit in big 5v5 team fights.
The key to fighting Monkey King is that if you see him in a lane, or setting up in trees, just dont waste your time to find him and just go to where your friends are or other shit and ball or farm in proximity to each other. Then go gank him when hes farming lanes because its the easiest hero to gank in the world as long as hes not setting up in trees.
He's only shit because people don't bother to get bkb. His ult is also the most broken shit ever if you have setup for it. His strong laning presence allows for some crazy teamfighting supports that are shit in babysiting lanes, like treant, enigma, ES.
I can understand wanting PT over phase but I still prefer the bonus movespeed, while Echo Sabre and the lvl 10 talent provide the attack speed. I find I don't really have the slots to carry OoV too long, especially if I go desolator.
I dont think the slight increase in attack speed from treads is enough within the 3-4 hits that you need to apply jingu, most the time you can settle for 3 hits use boundless strike to get the 4th and then your pretty much unstoppable with phase to finish them out. You get 2 straight out of echo and pretty much need 1 hit which the treads dont help with, also his ulti doesnt benefit from as only damage. Bkb is definitely core, i feel right after echo saber your pretty much a initiating/teamfight god
On December 26 2016 15:08 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: if you can get away with deso before bkb it increases your ult effectiveness massively
but of course if you die during ult its bad so you need bkb a lot of the time
the fact that your ult can bash can make basher extremely valuable too
Now tell me why on earth would u want deso over maelstrom there is absolute 0 reason to get it over maelstrom.
Increases his farmrate, buffs his ult into oblivion.
deso in all regards sure its good to apply that -armor but you do realise every illusion can procc the maelstrom at once right?.
and its not unlikley you se that happen, if you sit in trees and drop ult on center of 2 heroes.
then other 3 comes in to help boom chainreaction and you have a laguna on all 5 heroes.
Just no, there is NO reason to get deso its horrible on him compared to maelstrom and also you want to be tanky, to be able to take some sort of hits if i ever would concider any item instead of going maelstrom it would be vanguard.
Also the ulti monkeys only hit once every 2 seconds without a guarantee that it will proc mael, while deso will always apply it and if they dont hit often (like a huge aoe stun/disable) its the inital attack that you want to be impactful. People rarely stay in the ulti or allow the ulti to last enough for every monkey to proc a chain lighting. (The exception being disables which if u have 5 heros in that ulti for the duration theyre fucked regardless of orb) Not to mention that negative armor benefits your physical damaging allies. Maelstorm isnt bad, thats not what im saying im saying you underestimate deso and overestimate Maelstorm.
On December 27 2016 12:29 Shock710 wrote: Also the ulti monkeys only hit once every 2 seconds without a guarantee that it will proc mael, while deso will always apply it and if they dont hit often (like a huge aoe stun/disable) its the inital attack that you want to be impactful. People rarely stay in the ulti or allow the ulti to last enough for every monkey to proc a chain lighting. (The exception being disables which if u have 5 heros in that ulti for the duration theyre fucked regardless of orb) Not to mention that negative armor benefits your physical damaging allies. Maelstorm isnt bad, thats not what im saying im saying you underestimate deso and overestimate Maelstorm.
Are you telling me 8 illusions wont procc it? or yourself? i dont know what world you are living in :D, fact is maelstrom IS better on him there is no reason to argue it will provide more dmg becuse they CANNOT enter that zone if you have used it on him you know how much dmg it does its insane they either have to pop you directly or they die. while deso sure it provides dmg its good but its nowhere close to the aoe dmg maelstrom provides just two proccs is enuff to overwelm deso in damage, and the longer they are in the ult the more damage it provides, and most games at this point have 0 bkb:s also.
and deso dont increase your farmrate either plus your q acts as an auto attack that have individual proccs that means over multiple target it maths it out and in a teamfight your Q is more or less 100% procc on maelstrom.
"they either have to pop you directly or they die" ... or they run out seems like what MK ult always does tbh. I've yet to see someone surviving in that zone for more than 5 seconds and most of the time it's like 2 near the center.
On average his ult gets ~4-5 autos off. The ppl you didn't go on likely will get hit 0-1 times and the target in the center will get ~3 hits, sometimes more. So that's 1 additional maelstrom proc. 125 magic aoe damage if they are close enough to get hit. Compared to 20 (60 on the close target) damage and -7 armor there is zero doubt in my mind that Deso deals more damage.
Arguing that q has aoe and proccs Mael to deal more damage than Deso is so ridiculous I'm asking myself if you are trolling. Boundless's aoe is very thin and often you use it with gingu, which gets amplified by the -7 armor from desolate. It's a single hit, so the bonus AS does nothing and the bonus damage works, so Deso's stats are better as well.
There are reasons to consider Mael over Deso, mainly bonus AS synergizing with Gingu, Mjolnir being a decent upgrade while Deso is dead end and Mael increasing his farm speed more. I could imagine something like Vanguard Maelstrom becoming standard. But if we compare pure damage output in skirmishes and teamfights and ignore his autoattacks, it's not even close.
Looking at Dotabuff it doesn't seem to be built very often; I have played very little of this hero, but I'd be guessing some combination of "splitpush", "dispel silence without having to commit BKB", "movespeed to build up Jingu Mastery charges more easily", and "not an absolutely rubbish damage item, though probably worse than alternatives".
It does not seem better than the alternatives to me in most cases; I think you would have to really badly want the safer splitpush and dispel. Possibly I'm missing something.
Definitely over-nerfed. Should have either removed bonus damage or copying bash, not both. Feel like if Icefrog is set on keeping it like this, at the very least the Monkeys of his ultimate should be buffed by AS auras like Assault Cuirass, Inner Beast, etc.
i feel like with the sny change mk can still be played fine, just not as crazy as before? is the echo sabre worth it for the slow application now? seems good enough for a chaotic ultimate
On May 21 2017 06:38 Barkley wrote: Definitely over-nerfed. Should have either removed bonus damage or copying bash, not both. Feel like if Icefrog is set on keeping it like this, at the very least the Monkeys of his ultimate should be buffed by AS auras like Assault Cuirass, Inner Beast, etc.
Agree with the over-nerf part. I thought the ability of the ult to bash was a pretty cool / unique interaction that allowed MK to scale as a support. Granted, the potential for getting chain-stunned in an ultimate could be pretty infuriating or even imba in the right circumstances, but I don't think the solution is to make a a weird asterisk exception for bash items.
At the very least, MKB should still work... he's the monkey king!!
Whatever the case, I just think it would be very sad if the newest Dota hero were nerfed so quickly and deeply into oblivion that he's completely ignored at the subsequent TI.
It was to be expected that a nerf was coming in, however, I didn't it was going to be this bad.
I believe it's sort of a commercial decision by Valve as well - release a new hero, make him super strong so everyone wants to play him, release an expensive Arcana = profit. Then nerf...
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/4/4e/Monkey_King_Large.png)
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