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Ahoy Fellow Dota players,
dotabuff: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/84432440
im struggeling to get my stuff done in games. During my peak it was almost 3k but for a month or sth i lost so hard im below 2k.
I play the poor support role and it often feels horrible. warding etc and not having money for basic items like a forve-staff and in the end getting blamed by the "carries" for not having items.
tried a few offlane games, and so far im ok with dark seer or beastmaster.
when i try to play sth like a sven etc im not really getting somewhere. my last hits are horrible low, also my farming speed in general.
ive been watching pros and read through some material. have been able to adjust my warding and lane assistance.
still feels bad when there is always the cancer of PA, Slark, Jugg in pubs and they just roll over your team.
also the accountbossting is really bullshit, i start to run into these ppl a lot lately. they even brag about it "trust me im 4k, i boost :D :D :D" so the games are even more asymmetric. i just report these ppl but still its annoying.
for the funnsies i played some invoker vs unfair bots, im fine with the combos of QW. but bot games arent really telling of real pubs. esp voker gets banned often, ppl spam mid even in the loading screen and supports are painful to watch when you see there are 4obs in the shop.
tl:dr what am i looking for?
- additional improvement to my support-existence (heros, decisions etc)
- suggestions for possible offlaners
- learning to play carries (farming, decisions, heros)
- should i ask for coaching here (suggestions?)
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At 2k I think your focus should primarily be on basic laning fundamentals. You should be learn how to:
~ bully solo offlaners without messing up creep equilibrium
~ pull camps to restore creep equilibrium/get exp and gold
In the laning phase always ask urself am i securing my safelaner farm/exp? If you are good, buy a tp scroll for tp support if you arent and r just leeching exp, then you should probably leave the lane. Try to secure runes for ur mid every 2 mins.
In terms of decision making thats a lot trickier, but just realise that against snowball pub heroes the impetus is on you not to feed cheap kills (eg just dying alone to sb slark). Always think about ur positioning in teamfights, imagine what ur oppnent has to do to reach you, then make it as hard as possible for them.
Once u learn to die less/make ur deaths MEANINGFUL, youll find urself with more gold/lvls. Remember, most of ur gold comes from towers/kills not creeps. The only time u shud be near a creep wave is when no other core is there to defend / grab. The moment somebody with higher priority shows give deference and go ward/deward etc.
I would watch high lvl pubs over pro replays atm cuz they r more reflective of jobs u need to do.
Edit: i suggest lich for support and maybe timbersaw for offlaning.
And a common noob trap supports do is casually tping to a lane when theres no real benefit. Learn when u can walk and save 50g + kill gold from successful tp counter ganks
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On August 17 2016 18:19 Baggage wrote:
At 2k I think your focus should primarily be on basic laning fundamentals. You should be learn how to:
~ bully solo offlaners without messing up creep equilibrium
~ pull camps to restore creep equilibrium/get exp and gold
In the laning phase always ask urself am i securing my safelaner farm/exp? If you are good, buy a tp scroll for tp support if you arent and r just leeching exp, then you should probably leave the lane. Try to secure runes for ur mid every 2 mins.
In terms of decision making thats a lot trickier, but just realise that against snowball pub heroes the impetus is on you not to feed cheap kills (eg just dying alone to sb slark). Always think about ur positioning in teamfights, imagine what ur oppnent has to do to reach you, then make it as hard as possible for them.
Once u learn to die less/make ur deaths MEANINGFUL, youll find urself with more gold/lvls. Remember, most of ur gold comes from towers/kills not creeps. The only time u shud be near a creep wave is when no other core is there to defend / grab. The moment somebody with higher priority shows give deference and go ward/deward etc.
I would watch high lvl pubs over pro replays atm cuz they r more reflective of jobs u need to do.
Edit: i suggest lich for support and maybe timbersaw for offlaning.
And a common noob trap supports do is casually tping to a lane when theres no real benefit. Learn when u can walk and save 50g + kill gold from successful tp counter ganks
depending on my hero i bully the offlaner as much as i can. not just with attackig him, its often enough to walk at him to make them return to their tower. so im also fine with the aggro controll, most of the time i get my harass in without dragging creep along. when im in lane along with another hero, i focus on denying our creeps or bully the other heros.
stacking / pulling works okish, i dont get the pull into the big camps on all attempts but i get them. otherwise im just stacking the pull-camp 2x to clear the wave. and also focusing the deny of my creeps while keeping an eye out for the last hits in the cmap.
warding / dewarding is fine (i would say). i manage to keep the obs count ini the store below 2 and also keep a close look into the items of their heros to see if they have wards i might have to remove. but in this bracket, they hardly even ward before 30mins in. and if they do, its some standard spots which are easy to find.
depending on their heros i also always have sentries with me, incase of some invis escapes.
i have atleast 1 tp scroll with me (most of the time 2) and prefer to walk around if there is no emergency calling for a tp.
during fights or small fights i try to do as much dmg as i can. when my carries are in danger i try to bait the enemy to kill me instead of them. or just like force staff my heros away and let them kill me. depends on heros etc but you get the idea.
for the hero-suggestion, lich is fine, i miss a stun beside his ult, but he is ok.
timber on the other side ... havent played him much but he feels really weird to play. might be because of his different skillset compared to the others. maybe i do some lobbygames to get a better feeling
edit:
no idea why dotabuff lists me as 2,5k mmr.
solo im 2000 flat
party is like 3k or sth, due to friends
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On August 17 2016 19:31 Rodberd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2016 18:19 Baggage wrote:
At 2k I think your focus should primarily be on basic laning fundamentals. You should be learn how to:
~ bully solo offlaners without messing up creep equilibrium
~ pull camps to restore creep equilibrium/get exp and gold
In the laning phase always ask urself am i securing my safelaner farm/exp? If you are good, buy a tp scroll for tp support if you arent and r just leeching exp, then you should probably leave the lane. Try to secure runes for ur mid every 2 mins.
In terms of decision making thats a lot trickier, but just realise that against snowball pub heroes the impetus is on you not to feed cheap kills (eg just dying alone to sb slark). Always think about ur positioning in teamfights, imagine what ur oppnent has to do to reach you, then make it as hard as possible for them.
Once u learn to die less/make ur deaths MEANINGFUL, youll find urself with more gold/lvls. Remember, most of ur gold comes from towers/kills not creeps. The only time u shud be near a creep wave is when no other core is there to defend / grab. The moment somebody with higher priority shows give deference and go ward/deward etc.
I would watch high lvl pubs over pro replays atm cuz they r more reflective of jobs u need to do.
Edit: i suggest lich for support and maybe timbersaw for offlaning.
And a common noob trap supports do is casually tping to a lane when theres no real benefit. Learn when u can walk and save 50g + kill gold from successful tp counter ganks depending on my hero i bully the offlaner as much as i can. not just with attackig him, its often enough to walk at him to make them return to their tower. so im also fine with the aggro controll, most of the time i get my harass in without dragging creep along. when im in lane along with another hero, i focus on denying our creeps or bully the other heros. stacking / pulling works okish, i dont get the pull into the big camps on all attempts but i get them. otherwise im just stacking the pull-camp 2x to clear the wave. and also focusing the deny of my creeps while keeping an eye out for the last hits in the cmap. warding / dewarding is fine (i would say). i manage to keep the obs count ini the store below 2 and also keep a close look into the items of their heros to see if they have wards i might have to remove. but in this bracket, they hardly even ward before 30mins in. and if they do, its some standard spots which are easy to find. depending on their heros i also always have sentries with me, incase of some invis escapes. i have atleast 1 tp scroll with me (most of the time 2) and prefer to walk around if there is no emergency calling for a tp. during fights or small fights i try to do as much dmg as i can. when my carries are in danger i try to bait the enemy to kill me instead of them. or just like force staff my heros away and let them kill me. depends on heros etc but you get the idea. for the hero-suggestion, lich is fine, i miss a stun beside his ult, but he is ok. timber on the other side ... havent played him much but he feels really weird to play. might be because of his different skillset compared to the others. maybe i do some lobbygames to get a better feeling edit: no idea why dotabuff lists me as 2,5k mmr. solo im 2000 flat party is like 3k or sth, due to friends
dotabuff only updates ur dotabuff mmr if u have it publicly displayed on ur profile
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Don't deny your creeps if they are dying to neutrals, the enemy gets 50%xp from a hero deny and 20% xp from a neutral deny.
If they are dying to the wave you can usually do more meaningful things than denying, except for maybe the ranged creep. But on average you should focus on zoning, pulling, stacking and denying/securing runes.
I'd only deny a lot in mid or when our lane is a bit weaker. Else the carry can do it.
Stack-pulling can be huge if you win the lane, that's just 40%xp per minute gone if you can stop the offlaner from lasthitting and a hard camp more for you or your carry is roughly a wave more of xp. Just tell your carry to push out the wave, make the offlaner lasthit under tower while you stack-pull and he looses exp automatically even if he contests. AoE the camp down once it hits three stacks and if possible let your carry get the large creeps.
It forces your carry to lasthit under tower until he can tank the creeps, but that's fairly easy if the creeps didn't take damage before.
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I post this every time in here threads but youvr got to consider the value behind your role. For example, as a support, you can't depend solely on securing your safe lane because it's very likely your safe lane will fail or make terrible decisions. So playing a support with roaming / map dominance potential will be better for you.
In low mmr games, you have to consider your own farm and you can easily outpace their cores by farming empty lanes mid game. The number one thing I see in sub 4K games is empty lanes and wasted farm. Get good at last hitting as a support like lion or something, find yourself 10-12 minute blinks, and you can take over the game.
Buy wards but don't over emphasize their usefulness in trash teir. People simply don't react to having vision in useful ways. Use wards to get things accomplished you want done -- a ward near their offlane tower so you can gank their offlaners, hi ground mid to kill their invoker, behind teir 1 to push, etc.
Basically don't think of yourself as a "sacrificial support"; you can't win if you are level 4 in 10 minutes. You've got to contribute and take over, no matter you position.
As for off lane, your mindset should be: what hero can I shit on their carry with in lane? Sand king, beastm, bristle, timber all good at this
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Last hit, carry a TP, focus on this atm.Play every hero once along the way. Any item should do the trick. It remembers me those SC2 threads where people wanted some help but they just did not get the "make workers don't get supplied block spend your minerals" right.
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Well to be fair I think a 2k player knows what each hero does and if he mains sup, he doesn't really have to be that efficient in his farming patterns.
Teamfight positioning, aggressive warding, finding farm and roaming are different beasts though.
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On August 17 2016 21:40 Blackfeather wrote:
Well to be fair I think a 2k player knows what each hero does and if he mains sup, he doesn't really have to be that efficient in his farming patterns.
Teamfight positioning, aggressive warding, finding farm and roaming are different beasts though.
I'm not even speaking about farming patterns, I'm speaking of actually last hitting a low health creep. If the guy has trouble last hitting with sven and even then finding farm with a hero who has built in cleave. he has to fix that first, it should be enough to play with better mates. It does not matter if you're a CM or TB under metamorphosis, you want those last hits when you have the opportunity.
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Almost everybody who says "I mostly do x fine" has a big ass dose of dunning kruger. The point is you really aren't which is why people tell u to do that stuff over and over.
Like with regards to warding the goal shud be next to 0 downtime. Also actually warding in spots that matter and reflect your teams goals and objectives. I can tell you at higher mmrs 95% of the monkey supports you get will never put anti tinker lane wards or w.e at the cliff spot, and those can literally win you a game.
Just watch replays of higher level pub supports / players and you'll see how much more people are doing and you aren't. Roaming supports are also good like lion, bh, Riki etc, because u have to make an impact in the game to be relevant so they'll teach you how to get shit done.
Junglers aren't bad either, but u need to know how to actually use your farm effectively cuz ur lanes will get punished by it.
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As a fellow 2K scrub that is slowly getting better, I can offer the following advice that was given to me by better players. This is for supports.
- Go back to fountain less. Try to only go back when you have no chance of regening your mana back to a point of usefulness. 90% of the time you could just chill out near a core, or slow farm a camp to get XP while you wait. Going back to base hurts you more than you know.
- Once the laning phase is over and your carry is able to farm solo, you need to catch up in levels and gold. The biggest mistake you can make is not making up for all that XP you didn’t leach off of your carry. Especially if slark is in the game.
- Its cool you hang out with your carry and leach XP to get a few levels. You keep them safe and you need the levels.
- Hide. The only real defense a support has is not being seen. If they can’t see you, they can’t click on you. If this means hiding in the brush a screen away, so be it.
Also, 2K cores are terrible players most of the time. I don’t play heroes like DS or dazzle when I have to play with them because they do dumb shit and I can’t save them. Or yell at me when I generate illusions off of them with SD.
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In 5k below mmr games there is no thing such as "poor" support. That is because of the pro gamers' 5. position: purpose is the let the carry farm and supports create the space. However in your games especially, your carries wont be effecient to farm all the map, so feel free to farm jungle and empty lanes.
From a 3.8k player
3 Golden Rules:
- Dont go kills that you will die certainly, mostly ends up not getting the kill and you die. Especially with supports, you shouldnt initiate you should stay always in back ready to help. Play safe, if enemy dives teleport to your tower, learn how to position yourself.
- If people are toxic in your team, mute and dont waste your time writing.
- Master a single hero first, climb at least 3k. Watch your replays and find wrong moves you made, if you cant find you are mistaken.
However most importantly, in order to improve your gameplay you should play core heroes and learn efficiency patterns in order to help as a support. So learn how to hit the creeps with a hero and play only that hero until you improve.
Another thing is, as a said positioning is the safer way to win the games, you may have a badlane, you may get countered and enemy could be better.... Staying in the right place in the right time is the only variable you can control in this game so i assume yok lack this. My brother is not good at farming effecient or he didnt master any hero. However he has been playing the game for a long time and knows how to react to minimap, and he is 4.3 k.
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Being at a lower mmr is a great opportunity to practice your weaker roles and skills.
For example, if you're used to playing a passive laning support, but you're against players that suck at warding, you have an excellent opportunity to practice aggressively roaming. Then when you recover MMR, you'll have a more well-rounded playstyle.
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we played some games together.
i do some stuff well, and i got some things to fix.
but his suggestion would be a new acc to get rid of the 2k mmr bracket. since i seem not to belong there. i should be able to win the "placement-games" and end up somewhere around the 3-3,5k mark.
leaving one acc for the fun stuff and one for mmr-grinding if needed.
shoudl i want to keep that acc i should spam mid heros to speed up the process of increasing the mmr.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
is this the legendary elo hell ur talking about? that u belong in 3.5k but somehow cant climb out of 2k??
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Be very discerning with your hero selection. At this MMR heroes with huge burst and disables really outshine "pro" heroes. If you really want to gain MMR I would stick to 3-5 heroes and just play those consistently adjusting to your lane and team.
Omniknight and necrophos (lesser extent Dazzle) are the exceptions because of how good they are are saving your teammates. If your teammates are bad you can stop the feed, and if your teammates are good they're pretty unstoppable with your support. Winter wyvern is a bait - the ultimate is very bad now and in a pub it can straight up lose you the game. Stay away!
Tidehunter and beastmaster are incredibly offlaners. I would probably stay away from picking dark seer. You can win your lane easily but it's very hard to contribute to a win with him in a pub game.
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keep practicing and try not to focus on whether your skill should be valuated higher than it currently is.
when it's time, you'll notice that you're crushing the games no matter what hero or lane you're put into, and by that point you will have raised in rating already.
when you're poor and can't afford anything, getting blamed, "We need wards.", etc.
i believe this is mostly other people not understanding the compromised situation you're put in, but it's not entirely wrong either. if you are not busy failing roaming ganks or are dying in lane, you get much more out of the lane than you should be if it's one of those free-farm lanes where the opposing laning duos don't touch each other for a while.
6:00 level 6 supports isn't unheard of if all they're doing is leeching in lane and babysitting.
at this point, ultimates kill and have large impact the earlier they come online.
so part of the reason why your teammates blame you for being underleveled is because they expecting to be carried in aspects of how when they're forced to play support, they leech XP and try to impact a game by not buying wards and just showing up to get kills. that's to say they play differently, and expect you to do the same without really thinking on how they themselves could change their play/laning to match.
playing properly vs. playing the match is a bit of a grey line, i think, when nobody really understands what they're doing and how it actually affects the game.
so just focus on winning, however possible, and keep an objective eye to what is considered proper play as you rise up in rating. this may be a boring way to go about things, but the longer you spend thinking on things, the less time you're trying or learning other heroes.
post who you'd like to learn how to lane or play, and we'll post resources that are relevant up to a good level of play, including self-replays or old guides/videos.
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You should be able to simply outfarm opponents at 2k mmr. Split push as much as you can while carrying a tp, to come to fights you know you can win. Try to encourage your teammates to farm as much as possible as well. Mainly be as efficient as you can yourself and you can outfarm most 2ks.
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On August 18 2016 09:04 bdonballer wrote:
You should be able to simply outfarm opponents at 2k mmr. Split push as much as you can while carrying a tp, to come to fights you know you can win. Try to encourage your teammates to farm as much as possible as well. Mainly be as efficient as you can yourself and you can outfarm most 2ks.
This falls apart when the person you're talking to is also 2k...
Yes a 5k can just outfarm and beat a team of 2ks, but it is highly unlikely that his mechanical skills are so far past his opponents that he can just afk farm to win.
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EPT
