EPTThe hero is incredibly burst-oriented now because of how charges work on his ult. Skadi is largely a survivability/sustained fighting item, and awful for this.
[Hero] Riki - Page 2
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The hero is incredibly burst-oriented now because of how charges work on his ult. Skadi is largely a survivability/sustained fighting item, and awful for this. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
You have higher burst mana expenditure, but your maximum possible mana expense in one instance is still only 290 (which is only possible at level 16) AND you have less freedom to use Blink Strike for general mobility because of the charge time on Blink Strike. Clarities top you up after you've burnt a full combo, and your over-time mana usage between full ult charges is less than before. Buying an item that gives you 575 mana on a hero who would only reasonably use 290-380, 90-180 of which is on a skill that has virtually no applications outside of fighting things, and who needs 2.5 minutes to recharge that full burst makes no sense. EDIT: Mathematically, Diffusal 1 + level 11 gives you enough effective mana regen to always be able to cast your full charges' worth of Blink Strike (i.e. regenerate more than 40 mana in 30 seconds). You Clarity to make up the difference from Smoke Screen usage if you need to, but since you basically won't use Smoke Screen in situations that don't involve killing people and blowing Blink Strike charges, you don't need to commit an actual item to this. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
 The new riki can cast blinkstrike 5 times in 1 second after which u have to wait for 30 seconds, because thats how i think it worked in my games until now. But apparantly im wrong so it must be me! | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 27 2014 05:08 govie wrote: I believe you might not have tried riki yet and are making alot of fuss for nothing The new riki can cast blinkstrike 5 times in 1 second after which u have to wait for 30 seconds, because thats how i think it worked in my games until now. But apparantly im wrong so it must be me! You get charges back at a rate of 1 every 30 seconds. Even though you can save them up, you still need to wait for all the charges to restore to be able to use them all at once--which means it takes 2.5 minutes to get all 5 charges back. Again, if you restore more than 40 mana in 30 seconds (which level 11 + Diffusal gives you), you get mana back faster than you get charges back, meaning you can always cast your full number of Blink Strikes once you pass that amount, Smoke Screens notwithstanding. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
I have tried diffusal, euls and skadi on the new riki so far: Euls felt gimmicky even against a bounty hunter. The diffusal blade wasnt enough manapool+regen for me to play riki effectively in the early+mid game and it didnt feel like i spammed the silence whole game long. The pms+urn+skadi gave my riki a different/harder build up itemwise but it eventually synergized better in my games. It seems with the new gold/xp changes high tier items are just one fight away and can be farmed pretty fast even if you have had a bad start. If someone ever encounters the same manaproblems as i did/do on riki, they could maybe try pt+pms+urn+skadi to see if it solves their problems in those typical situations/games or not. Hopefully they give feedback on it so we learn from peoples experiences on the new riki. | ||
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Fumanchu
Canada669 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
Worst comes to worst ask for a bottle charge. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
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Frogstomp
United States125 Posts
I mention this because using blink dagger does not break his invisibility. It sounds good, but then there's the opportunity cost of picking it up, and the question of when in a build to get it. Just throwing it out there. | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
On September 27 2014 14:18 me_viet wrote: I can't think of a single hero that would want skadi first lol. Treads and diffusal was more than enough. If even one of your team mate has manaboots you will never run out of mana. You don't always need to use smoke for every engagement. Worst comes to worst ask for a bottle charge. Skadi first is okay on slark, I guess (after treads wand aquila blink). I guess. | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On October 09 2014 21:38 Kreb wrote: Please for the love of god stop going offlane or roaming with this hero. Really, please. Never played Riki before - why is he bad offlane/roaming? | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
On September 27 2014 05:08 govie wrote: I believe you might not have tried riki yet and are making alot of fuss for nothing The new riki can cast blinkstrike 5 times in 1 second after which u have to wait for 30 seconds, because thats how i think it worked in my games until now. But apparantly im wrong so it must be me! no it takes 2 seconds to blink 5 times, and u still need to wait for backstab hits after a blink. On October 09 2014 21:28 Torte de Lini wrote: so is Riki now better with Tranquils or is Treads still important? tranquils is even worse now on him.... always go treads ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also about skadi first.... whats the point? you can just get something like yasha>drums>sange first which is far better if you cant manage mana early on, then get a bottle... its rly ez to get bottlecharges/runes with invis heroes now then you can get skadi or basher or both depending on which you need more. i think diffusal is still a big trap item, but useful in some situations new flutter on butterfly makes that item so much better on every hero that already used to go butterfly. also chrono/duels/dooms no longer disable evasion, even more reason to get it On October 09 2014 21:38 Kreb wrote: Please for the love of god stop going offlane or roaming with this hero. Really, please. he can do both, fulfilling different roles. On October 09 2014 21:53 Frogstomp wrote: Has anyone tried blink on him in a real match? I know it sounds crazy because he already has blink strike, but it could open up some nice hit and run plays that sow chaos or set up a teamfight. I.e; blink in, smoke screen, backstab, blink strike away. I mention this because using blink dagger does not break his invisibility. It sounds good, but then there's the opportunity cost of picking it up, and the question of when in a build to get it. Just throwing it out there. On October 09 2014 22:57 Comeh wrote: Skadi first is okay on slark, I guess (after treads wand aquila blink). I guess. no blink sounds entirely worthless except for style gimmick points. riki is a hero that needs to progressively keep getting stronger as the game goes on otherwise he falls behind hard. you need hp/stats/dmg/attackspeed through out the whole game. same for slark kinda, i rly dislike blink slark... its good for picking off a squishy support... but is 2k gold rly worth it for that 1-2 extra kills on supports? buying blink on squishy/mobile heroes like slark/riki make them weaker in terms of actual power/fighting... having a blink on these heroes also makes ur frontline in fights weaker...hence ur backline (supports/squishies) will suffer from you buying blink bcoz u cant sustain in the frontlines and enemies can sweep thru ur ranks killing ur backliners rly fast. also shadowblade got buffed which is a nice item on slark, it makes supports buy lots of sentries as well. if you ever play a pub and enemies have a solo support then shadowblade makes it rly easy for you to win coz one support cant maintain courier/flying/obs/sentries/gem. blink doesnt do any of this. also another thing.... bottle on slark is almost mandatory imo.. whether you are mid/safe/offlane the fact that you can bottle through ulti in the middle of the fight just makes it too good | ||
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Comeh
United States18918 Posts
On October 09 2014 23:23 ChunderBoy wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 27 2014 05:08 govie wrote: I believe you might not have tried riki yet and are making alot of fuss for nothing The new riki can cast blinkstrike 5 times in 1 second after which u have to wait for 30 seconds, because thats how i think it worked in my games until now. But apparantly im wrong so it must be me! no it takes 2 seconds to blink 5 times, and u still need to wait for backstab hits after a blink. On October 09 2014 21:28 Torte de Lini wrote: so is Riki now better with Tranquils or is Treads still important? tranquils is even worse now on him.... always go treads ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also about skadi first.... whats the point? you can just get something like yasha>drums>sange first which is far better if you cant manage mana early on, then get a bottle... its rly ez to get bottlecharges/runes with invis heroes now then you can get skadi or basher or both depending on which you need more. i think diffusal is still a big trap item, but useful in some situations new flutter on butterfly makes that item so much better on every hero that already used to go butterfly. also chrono/duels/dooms no longer disable evasion, even more reason to get it On October 09 2014 21:38 Kreb wrote: Please for the love of god stop going offlane or roaming with this hero. Really, please. he can do both, fulfilling different roles. On October 09 2014 21:53 Frogstomp wrote: Has anyone tried blink on him in a real match? I know it sounds crazy because he already has blink strike, but it could open up some nice hit and run plays that sow chaos or set up a teamfight. I.e; blink in, smoke screen, backstab, blink strike away. I mention this because using blink dagger does not break his invisibility. It sounds good, but then there's the opportunity cost of picking it up, and the question of when in a build to get it. Just throwing it out there. On October 09 2014 22:57 Comeh wrote: Skadi first is okay on slark, I guess (after treads wand aquila blink). I guess. no blink sounds entirely worthless except for style gimmick points. riki is a hero that needs to progressively keep getting stronger as the game goes on otherwise he falls behind hard. you need hp/stats/dmg/attackspeed through out the whole game. same for slark kinda, i rly dislike blink slark... its good for picking off a squishy support... but is 2k gold rly worth it for that 1-2 extra kills on supports? buying blink on squishy/mobile heroes like slark/riki make them weaker in terms of actual power/fighting... having a blink on these heroes also makes ur frontline in fights weaker...hence ur backline (supports/squishies) will suffer from you buying blink bcoz u cant sustain in the frontlines and enemies can sweep thru ur ranks killing ur backliners rly fast. also shadowblade got buffed which is a nice item on slark, it makes supports buy lots of sentries as well. if you ever play a pub and enemies have a solo support then shadowblade makes it rly easy for you to win coz one support cant maintain courier/flying/obs/sentries/gem. blink doesnt do any of this. also another thing.... bottle on slark is almost mandatory imo.. whether you are mid/safe/offlane the fact that you can bottle through ulti in the middle of the fight just makes it too good okay super off topic, but I find blink super effective for a few reasons on slark (not discounting shadowblade - it can be good). A: shadowblade initiation falls off really hard once supports start buying sentries - a lot of times i go slark shadowblade the other team buys sentries / gem and suddenly i become a useless afk farmer B: Blink initation range is absolutely absurd - pretty much can kill anyone a screen away. C: Shadowblade mana cost (whatever) D: actually farm faster with blink (whatever) E: You can ult on slark, do damage, and then blink away (which won't get ruined by reveal like shadowblade does) as the cd will come off cooldown. F: Its slightly cheaper. I mean both are good, but i have stomped pubs a lot more reliably with blink. The pick-off range is absurd for bad pub supports and bad pub supports are better at buying sentries then they are at positioning well. I guess you could argue how good pickoffs are as aw hole, but when you are playing blink slark you basically just go around the map killing everyone - its even really easy to kill squishier cores + 1 other heroes (if your pinging on them for 5 mins convinces them to follow you). Slark just naturally has a lot of damage with his kit at level 11, so really shouldn't be able to kill most heroes. Also this items just starves a lot of heroes like SB does becaues it forces heroes to not farm in areas of the map they normally would. Its definitely a snowball hero / item though, so if you fuck up some ganks you'll essentially just be a shitty initation hero and it will suck. But yeah blink riki is awful don't build it. I actually haven't played the new riki, but I think items like WB Yasha MoM are still good. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
On October 09 2014 23:18 BoZiffer wrote: Never played Riki before - why is he bad offlane/roaming? Lets look at some typically good properties for offlaners. - Is tanky/can withstand harassment. Riki? Nope. - Has escape or other anti-gank skill. Riki? Nope. - Does well with limited items. Riki? Nope. Can get descent damage without items due to backstab, but come midgame he offers nothing in teamfights if he hasnt been given farm priority. - Can pressure supports or force supports to stay around guarding their carry because the offlaner is a threat to the carry. Riki? Maybe pressure weak supps, other no. I see about no carry that would be afraid of a lvl 1-5 Riki or so. The only thing he really does in the offlane is force the enemy supps to spend 200g on detection. And I guess he also to some extend is better at soaking exp than some normal offlaners because of invis if you're against a defensive tri or very strong duo. Hes worse at getting whatever little farm you can find in the offlane and hes worse at doing good with whatever limited farm you get compared to more standard offlaners. Where other offlaners can shrug off some harassment or rely on their skillset to escape kill attemps, Riki cant do shit. The big breaking point is really that he doesnt function well at all without item/lvl advantage. This was already his weakness as safelane carry. Even as safelane carry often by midgame if you arent snowballing you'll often find you out you cant get into the fray to deal damage without getting bursted down. And with no team fight ulti or similar you need to be able do that. And that is the weakness of a safelane Riki. By putting him offlane you're amplifying his biggest weakness to the point where he needs to have an extremely fortunate laning/early game stage to be relevant come midgame. With items of similar value as say Tranqs + Blink (Centaur) or Arcanes + Soul ring (Timber) these offlaners can do lots of work even against more farmed enemy cores. Give Riki any items of similar value and he still can accomplish little to nothing. Also to mention he has no farming/jungling abilities or other catch up mechanics. Where Bats, Dooms and Prophets can retreat to the jungle if they're shut down offlane, what does a Riki do? On October 09 2014 23:23 ChunderBoy wrote: he can do both, fulfilling different roles. What role, beyond being a mobile ward (which other heroes do better and which you dont want to waste a #3 position slot on), would a Riki do in an average game from the offlane? | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
i mean if hes laning against a rly rly rly strong trilane that stuff like tide/cent cant go up against, he does better than them. i think u underestimate how good not being see on minimap is. it makes a psychological difference, enemies wont play as ballsy on other lanes, coz riki can just retaliate for his ally with smoke. im not saying that offlane riki is better than safelane tho | ||
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Varth
United States426 Posts
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