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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/a/a3/Riki_Large.png) Riki, the Stealth Assassin
Riki was born middle child to the great dynasty of Tahlin. With an older brother groomed for the throne, and a younger brother coddled and kept, Riki, the small middle son, seemed born for the art of invisibility. It was an art he cultivated, and one which ultimately saved his life on the night that his people were betrayed and his family slaughtered. Of all the royal line, he alone escaped-small and agile, unassuming, using smoke as cover. He cut his way out of the royal grounds, using the advantage of surprise, quietly slitting the throats of one enemy warrior after another. Now free of his royal responsibilities, Riki uses his talents in service to a new trade: Stealth Assassin. He silences his enemies, sharpening his skills, hoping to one day take revenge on those who killed his family and robbed him of his birthright.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/7/7d/Riki_icon.png)  Riki
Riki discussion.
6.87 buffs:
- Added to Captains Mode
- Buff Blink Strike damage increased from 20/40/60/80 to 60/80/100/120
- Buff Tricks of the Trade cast point improved from 0.4 to 0.3
- Buff Tricks of the Trade cooldown reduced from 40 to 40/35/30
+ Show Spoiler [List of all hero discussion threads] +
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I've never been able to find a middle ground with Riki. I'm either 12-0 beyond godlike just crushing people, or I'm like 2-8 getting warded and dusted to oblivion. I've also never figured out exactly when I should start ganking. Too early, and you don't have the power to finish a kill. Too late, and they're prepared for you. I assume that having a support to help you finish people off would be nice, but lol pubs =[
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Well when I play Riki I find an effective strategy is to play the hero as if he isn't invisible. Sounds weird I know but just pretending like you're not invisible fixes your positioning so well. You won't be caught out or dusted because you're playing like a normal hero. The invisibility is just a nice side bonus.
I go Orb of Venom, Aquila, Treads, Vlads, SnY, Butterfly, Skadi in general.
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Diffusal and BKB are core though 
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This can be a fun hero if the enemy picks AM.
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Riki-Wisp is a fun combo. If Riki gets a few items he is out of control with Wisp regenerating him.
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once i randomly had a riki teammate wheni was playing support pub naga against am and storm spirit
the net/smoke and song/smoke combos destroyed them both it was so nice
dark seer for vacuum into smoke cloud is really nice too
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Is Diffusal still a must-buy item on Riki?
From what I heard, Merlini loathes this item, claiming the charges would get consumed so quickly in teamfights and if he wanted something to dispel negative buffs he would get Manta.
Barny (the streamer) also said that Diffusal is nice if you get ahead but it's not very good if Riki is behind (can't accelerate farm), and that Maelstrom is more viable.
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i think buying diffusal is the biggest trap rikis fall into
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On August 02 2014 14:30 ChunderBoy wrote:
i think buying diffusal is the biggest trap rikis fall into
What is the first "big" item Riki should go for? Manta?
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On August 02 2014 21:17 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 14:30 ChunderBoy wrote:
i think buying diffusal is the biggest trap rikis fall into What is the first "big" item Riki should go for? Manta? Read my post, Maelstrom on Riki is viable. If you buy Diffusal you narrow yourself into having to get hero kills in order to pay off your investment. Against certain compositions you can't just "farm heroes" if you're not ahead, and you don't have anything to fall back into b/c Diffusal is a meh item for farming and doesn't build into anything big. Unless the enemy team has something like Warlock or Omni then you don't have to buy Diffusal every time.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/811677678
This is a game I've played today, died once in the laning phase, their Slark+Razor offlane came out way better than our solo offlane Weaver. Spectre had comfortable farm and went for midgame fighting build (Drums+Diffusal) take advantage of their composition. I didn't build Diffusal because I felt it wouldn't do anything for me in that game when what I needed was sustainability against Spectre Haunt+Razor. Had OoV in my inventory so I decided why not go for Skadi, and it turned out to work extremely well, as I was able to ignore the Haunt hits while going for their supports, then come back to deal with Spec+Razor when my team are out of spells. Item progression was OOV -> Maelstrom -> Vlad -> Skadi -> BKB -> Mjollnir.
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Does crit work with backstab? It did in HoN, not sure about dota.
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Treads basilus mom basher bkb. Rarely deviate from this route unless there's a wisp.
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On September 11 2014 00:51 DucK- wrote:
Treads basilus mom basher bkb. Rarely deviate from this route unless there's a wisp.
Pretty much agreed.
Maybe trade the basi for something else, and sometimes I grab yasha before MoM.
Oh and sometimes diffusal is good if there is more thna one purpose for it (say, an omni or warlock)
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On September 11 2014 01:11 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2014 00:51 DucK- wrote:
Treads basilus mom basher bkb. Rarely deviate from this route unless there's a wisp. Pretty much agreed. Maybe trade the basi for something else, and sometimes I grab yasha before MoM. Oh and sometimes diffusal is good if there is more thna one purpose for it (say, an omni or warlock)
Oh yea. I'd definitely go diffusal against them. I get Basi mainly for mana regen, though it could be an Urn if I feel like I need HP.
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On September 11 2014 00:51 DucK- wrote:
Treads basilus mom basher bkb. Rarely deviate from this route unless there's a wisp.
I know it's enemy and team composition specific, but it sort of feels like that's not enough damage unless you are ahead, or do you not get a value point in smoke?
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I've got a ~60% win rate over 22 games as Riki; he's one of my favorite glass cannon hard carry heroes.
Depending on lane opponent(s) and enemy team comp, my most usual build is E W E Q E R E, building for 1-4-4-2 at level 11. If bigger, longer smoke is required urgently, I typically cut backstab levels, and go 4-4-1-2 at 11. For item progression, I like to start with Tango (or 2 stacks, depending on expected lane) + 2 slippers (to build in to PMS).
As I'm often taking Riki safe lane, OOV is usually my first pickup after PMS is finished, ideally simultaneous to boots. Getting the OOV and boots up early game enormously increases Riki's relatively weak early kill potential. With brownboot + oov + PMS, next is the morbid mask to build in to MoM, however, I typically up brownboot to phase between morbid and MoM upgrade. This is the real divergent point in the build. My 6-slot objective in most games is to have MoM, Skadi, SnY, BKB, and Abyssal; first determination is whether or not I can be rekt uncontested by enemy nukes, in which case BKB comes next after MoM. If I can skip BKB through midgame, saving it for purchase just before uphill push, I'll then figure which between SnY and Skadi is more practical for next item. Skadi is my preference, but usually only works out if I've secured a few early kills, where is SnY is much easier to build in to from an even (or worse) position.
Overall, Riki is tons of fun, and super effective, when built this way. That said, all of my experience is down at dumpster-tier US 3.0k-3.5k Generally, competent players (rare at my level) will shit all over Riki long before he has the chance to get scary
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On September 11 2014 05:03 Zero.Tha.Hero wrote:I've got a ~60% win rate over 22 games as Riki; he's one of my favorite glass cannon hard carry heroes. Depending on lane opponent(s) and enemy team comp, my most usual build is E W E Q E R E, building for 1-4-4-2 at level 11. If bigger, longer smoke is required urgently, I typically cut backstab levels, and go 4-4-1-2 at 11. For item progression, I like to start with Tango (or 2 stacks, depending on expected lane) + 2 slippers (to build in to PMS). As I'm often taking Riki safe lane, OOV is usually my first pickup after PMS is finished, ideally simultaneous to boots. Getting the OOV and boots up early game enormously increases Riki's relatively weak early kill potential. With brownboot + oov + PMS, next is the morbid mask to build in to MoM, however, I typically up brownboot to phase between morbid and MoM upgrade. This is the real divergent point in the build. My 6-slot objective in most games is to have MoM, Skadi, SnY, BKB, and Abyssal; first determination is whether or not I can be rekt uncontested by enemy nukes, in which case BKB comes next after MoM. If I can skip BKB through midgame, saving it for purchase just before uphill push, I'll then figure which between SnY and Skadi is more practical for next item. Skadi is my preference, but usually only works out if I've secured a few early kills, where is SnY is much easier to build in to from an even (or worse) position. Overall, Riki is tons of fun, and super effective, when built this way. That said, all of my experience is down at dumpster-tier US 3.0k-3.5k Generally, competent players (rare at my level) will shit all over Riki long before he has the chance to get scary
if u want more in smoke i think u shud cut blink and get 4-1-4
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On September 11 2014 03:58 Vikeif wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2014 00:51 DucK- wrote:
Treads basilus mom basher bkb. Rarely deviate from this route unless there's a wisp. I know it's enemy and team composition specific, but it sort of feels like that's not enough damage unless you are ahead, or do you not get a value point in smoke?
Back stab damage is more than enough. Its not like you want to man fight with riki.
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Patch : 6.82, Hero : Riki, Problem : Mana during games
Solved with:
skills: 4-1-1-1 into whatever
items: pms > urn > PT's > Skadi > S&Y > Butterfly > AC > MKB > BoT
Endresult : from 1-4-0 in the early game to a 30-6-16 and pulled out a win.
Extra : They grouped up early and bought gems alot but it didnt matter, skadi before the S&Y and other items solved everything.
If others have the same manaproblems on the improved riki they can try skadi as their first major item, maybe it works for you guys too.
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United States47024 Posts
I think Skadi is generally a poor first item for him.
The hero is incredibly burst-oriented now because of how charges work on his ult. Skadi is largely a survivability/sustained fighting item, and awful for this.
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I would agree 100% on the old riki, on the new riki i had manaproblems and other solutions didnt work well so far. Have you tried the new riki yet and how did you solve the manaproblems?
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United States47024 Posts
How the hell does the new Riki spend more mana than the old one? Blink Strike's effective CD went up, and it's mana cost went down.
You have higher burst mana expenditure, but your maximum possible mana expense in one instance is still only 290 (which is only possible at level 16) AND you have less freedom to use Blink Strike for general mobility because of the charge time on Blink Strike. Clarities top you up after you've burnt a full combo, and your over-time mana usage between full ult charges is less than before.
Buying an item that gives you 575 mana on a hero who would only reasonably use 290-380, 90-180 of which is on a skill that has virtually no applications outside of fighting things, and who needs 2.5 minutes to recharge that full burst makes no sense.
EDIT: Mathematically, Diffusal 1 + level 11 gives you enough effective mana regen to always be able to cast your full charges' worth of Blink Strike (i.e. regenerate more than 40 mana in 30 seconds). You Clarity to make up the difference from Smoke Screen usage if you need to, but since you basically won't use Smoke Screen in situations that don't involve killing people and blowing Blink Strike charges, you don't need to commit an actual item to this.
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I believe you might not have tried riki yet and are making alot of fuss for nothing
The new riki can cast blinkstrike 5 times in 1 second after which u have to wait for 30 seconds, because thats how i think it worked in my games until now. But apparantly im wrong so it must be me!
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United States47024 Posts
On September 27 2014 05:08 govie wrote:I believe you might not have tried riki yet and are making alot of fuss for nothing The new riki can cast blinkstrike 5 times in 1 second after which u have to wait for 30 seconds, because thats how i think it worked in my games until now. But apparantly im wrong so it must be me!
You get charges back at a rate of 1 every 30 seconds. Even though you can save them up, you still need to wait for all the charges to restore to be able to use them all at once--which means it takes 2.5 minutes to get all 5 charges back.
Again, if you restore more than 40 mana in 30 seconds (which level 11 + Diffusal gives you), you get mana back faster than you get charges back, meaning you can always cast your full number of Blink Strikes once you pass that amount, Smoke Screens notwithstanding.
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We all know you calculate like no other, but i had/have simple mana issues in the early/midgame and i cant "uncalculate" that.
I have tried diffusal, euls and skadi on the new riki so far: Euls felt gimmicky even against a bounty hunter. The diffusal blade wasnt enough manapool+regen for me to play riki effectively in the early+mid game and it didnt feel like i spammed the silence whole game long. The pms+urn+skadi gave my riki a different/harder build up itemwise but it eventually synergized better in my games. It seems with the new gold/xp changes high tier items are just one fight away and can be farmed pretty fast even if you have had a bad start.
If someone ever encounters the same manaproblems as i did/do on riki, they could maybe try pt+pms+urn+skadi to see if it solves their problems in those typical situations/games or not. Hopefully they give feedback on it so we learn from peoples experiences on the new riki.
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I played riki yesterday. Treads toggle and diffusal was enough mana regen for me. Ended the game with treads, diffusal, bfly, and S&Y. Of course this is only one game but for myself I encountered very little mana problems.
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Skadi as first item is pretty shitty on pretty much every hero. Don't do it please. Absolutely no reason to waste early gold on it, especially if your primary reason is cuz of your mana concerns.
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I can't think of a single hero that would want skadi first lol. Treads and diffusal was more than enough. If even one of your team mate has manaboots you will never run out of mana. You don't always need to use smoke for every engagement.
Worst comes to worst ask for a bottle charge.
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United States47024 Posts
Or send yourself a clarity, which is a good habit for dealing with immediate mana concerns on any hero that has a small mana pool but also similarly small mana consumption.
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so is Riki now better with Tranquils or is Treads still important?
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Please for the love of god stop going offlane or roaming with this hero. Really, please.
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Has anyone tried blink on him in a real match? I know it sounds crazy because he already has blink strike, but it could open up some nice hit and run plays that sow chaos or set up a teamfight. I.e; blink in, smoke screen, backstab, blink strike away.
I mention this because using blink dagger does not break his invisibility.
It sounds good, but then there's the opportunity cost of picking it up, and the question of when in a build to get it. Just throwing it out there.
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On September 27 2014 14:18 me_viet wrote:
I can't think of a single hero that would want skadi first lol. Treads and diffusal was more than enough. If even one of your team mate has manaboots you will never run out of mana. You don't always need to use smoke for every engagement.
Worst comes to worst ask for a bottle charge.
Skadi first is okay on slark, I guess (after treads wand aquila blink).
I guess.
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On October 09 2014 21:38 Kreb wrote:
Please for the love of god stop going offlane or roaming with this hero. Really, please.
Never played Riki before - why is he bad offlane/roaming?
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On September 27 2014 05:08 govie wrote:I believe you might not have tried riki yet and are making alot of fuss for nothing The new riki can cast blinkstrike 5 times in 1 second after which u have to wait for 30 seconds, because thats how i think it worked in my games until now. But apparantly im wrong so it must be me!
no it takes 2 seconds to blink 5 times, and u still need to wait for backstab hits after a blink.
On October 09 2014 21:28 Torte de Lini wrote:
so is Riki now better with Tranquils or is Treads still important?
tranquils is even worse now on him....
always go treads
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Also about skadi first....
whats the point? you can just get something like yasha>drums>sange first which is far better
if you cant manage mana early on, then get a bottle... its rly ez to get bottlecharges/runes with invis heroes now
then you can get skadi or basher or both depending on which you need more.
i think diffusal is still a big trap item, but useful in some situations
new flutter on butterfly makes that item so much better on every hero that already used to go butterfly. also chrono/duels/dooms no longer disable evasion, even more reason to get it
On October 09 2014 21:38 Kreb wrote:
Please for the love of god stop going offlane or roaming with this hero. Really, please.
he can do both, fulfilling different roles.
On October 09 2014 21:53 Frogstomp wrote:
Has anyone tried blink on him in a real match? I know it sounds crazy because he already has blink strike, but it could open up some nice hit and run plays that sow chaos or set up a teamfight. I.e; blink in, smoke screen, backstab, blink strike away.
I mention this because using blink dagger does not break his invisibility.
It sounds good, but then there's the opportunity cost of picking it up, and the question of when in a build to get it. Just throwing it out there.
On October 09 2014 22:57 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 14:18 me_viet wrote:
I can't think of a single hero that would want skadi first lol. Treads and diffusal was more than enough. If even one of your team mate has manaboots you will never run out of mana. You don't always need to use smoke for every engagement.
Worst comes to worst ask for a bottle charge. Skadi first is okay on slark, I guess (after treads wand aquila blink). I guess.
no blink sounds entirely worthless except for style gimmick points.
riki is a hero that needs to progressively keep getting stronger as the game goes on otherwise he falls behind hard.
you need hp/stats/dmg/attackspeed through out the whole game.
same for slark kinda, i rly dislike blink slark... its good for picking off a squishy support... but is 2k gold rly worth it for that 1-2 extra kills on supports? buying blink on squishy/mobile heroes like slark/riki make them weaker in terms of actual power/fighting... having a blink on these heroes also makes ur frontline in fights weaker...hence ur backline (supports/squishies) will suffer from you buying blink bcoz u cant sustain in the frontlines and enemies can sweep thru ur ranks killing ur backliners rly fast.
also shadowblade got buffed which is a nice item on slark, it makes supports buy lots of sentries as well.
if you ever play a pub and enemies have a solo support then shadowblade makes it rly easy for you to win coz one support cant maintain courier/flying/obs/sentries/gem. blink doesnt do any of this.
also another thing.... bottle on slark is almost mandatory imo.. whether you are mid/safe/offlane
the fact that you can bottle through ulti in the middle of the fight just makes it too good
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On October 09 2014 23:23 ChunderBoy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 27 2014 05:08 govie wrote:I believe you might not have tried riki yet and are making alot of fuss for nothing The new riki can cast blinkstrike 5 times in 1 second after which u have to wait for 30 seconds, because thats how i think it worked in my games until now. But apparantly im wrong so it must be me! no it takes 2 seconds to blink 5 times, and u still need to wait for backstab hits after a blink. On October 09 2014 21:28 Torte de Lini wrote:
so is Riki now better with Tranquils or is Treads still important? tranquils is even worse now on him.... always go treads ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also about skadi first.... whats the point? you can just get something like yasha>drums>sange first which is far better if you cant manage mana early on, then get a bottle... its rly ez to get bottlecharges/runes with invis heroes now then you can get skadi or basher or both depending on which you need more. i think diffusal is still a big trap item, but useful in some situations new flutter on butterfly makes that item so much better on every hero that already used to go butterfly. also chrono/duels/dooms no longer disable evasion, even more reason to get it On October 09 2014 21:38 Kreb wrote:
Please for the love of god stop going offlane or roaming with this hero. Really, please. he can do both, fulfilling different roles. On October 09 2014 21:53 Frogstomp wrote:
Has anyone tried blink on him in a real match? I know it sounds crazy because he already has blink strike, but it could open up some nice hit and run plays that sow chaos or set up a teamfight. I.e; blink in, smoke screen, backstab, blink strike away.
I mention this because using blink dagger does not break his invisibility.
It sounds good, but then there's the opportunity cost of picking it up, and the question of when in a build to get it. Just throwing it out there. On October 09 2014 22:57 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2014 14:18 me_viet wrote:
I can't think of a single hero that would want skadi first lol. Treads and diffusal was more than enough. If even one of your team mate has manaboots you will never run out of mana. You don't always need to use smoke for every engagement.
Worst comes to worst ask for a bottle charge. Skadi first is okay on slark, I guess (after treads wand aquila blink). I guess. no blink sounds entirely worthless except for style gimmick points. riki is a hero that needs to progressively keep getting stronger as the game goes on otherwise he falls behind hard. you need hp/stats/dmg/attackspeed through out the whole game. same for slark kinda, i rly dislike blink slark... its good for picking off a squishy support... but is 2k gold rly worth it for that 1-2 extra kills on supports? buying blink on squishy/mobile heroes like slark/riki make them weaker in terms of actual power/fighting... having a blink on these heroes also makes ur frontline in fights weaker...hence ur backline (supports/squishies) will suffer from you buying blink bcoz u cant sustain in the frontlines and enemies can sweep thru ur ranks killing ur backliners rly fast. also shadowblade got buffed which is a nice item on slark, it makes supports buy lots of sentries as well. if you ever play a pub and enemies have a solo support then shadowblade makes it rly easy for you to win coz one support cant maintain courier/flying/obs/sentries/gem. blink doesnt do any of this. also another thing.... bottle on slark is almost mandatory imo.. whether you are mid/safe/offlane the fact that you can bottle through ulti in the middle of the fight just makes it too good
okay super off topic, but I find blink super effective for a few reasons on slark (not discounting shadowblade - it can be good).
A: shadowblade initiation falls off really hard once supports start buying sentries - a lot of times i go slark shadowblade the other team buys sentries / gem and suddenly i become a useless afk farmer
B: Blink initation range is absolutely absurd - pretty much can kill anyone a screen away.
C: Shadowblade mana cost (whatever)
D: actually farm faster with blink (whatever)
E: You can ult on slark, do damage, and then blink away (which won't get ruined by reveal like shadowblade does) as the cd will come off cooldown.
F: Its slightly cheaper.
I mean both are good, but i have stomped pubs a lot more reliably with blink. The pick-off range is absurd for bad pub supports and bad pub supports are better at buying sentries then they are at positioning well. I guess you could argue how good pickoffs are as aw hole, but when you are playing blink slark you basically just go around the map killing everyone - its even really easy to kill squishier cores + 1 other heroes (if your pinging on them for 5 mins convinces them to follow you). Slark just naturally has a lot of damage with his kit at level 11, so really shouldn't be able to kill most heroes. Also this items just starves a lot of heroes like SB does becaues it forces heroes to not farm in areas of the map they normally would. Its definitely a snowball hero / item though, so if you fuck up some ganks you'll essentially just be a shitty initation hero and it will suck.
But yeah blink riki is awful don't build it. I actually haven't played the new riki, but I think items like WB Yasha MoM are still good.
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On October 09 2014 23:18 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 21:38 Kreb wrote:
Please for the love of god stop going offlane or roaming with this hero. Really, please. Never played Riki before - why is he bad offlane/roaming?
Lets look at some typically good properties for offlaners.
- Is tanky/can withstand harassment. Riki? Nope.
- Has escape or other anti-gank skill. Riki? Nope.
- Does well with limited items. Riki? Nope. Can get descent damage without items due to backstab, but come midgame he offers nothing in teamfights if he hasnt been given farm priority.
- Can pressure supports or force supports to stay around guarding their carry because the offlaner is a threat to the carry. Riki? Maybe pressure weak supps, other no. I see about no carry that would be afraid of a lvl 1-5 Riki or so.
The only thing he really does in the offlane is force the enemy supps to spend 200g on detection. And I guess he also to some extend is better at soaking exp than some normal offlaners because of invis if you're against a defensive tri or very strong duo.
Hes worse at getting whatever little farm you can find in the offlane and hes worse at doing good with whatever limited farm you get compared to more standard offlaners. Where other offlaners can shrug off some harassment or rely on their skillset to escape kill attemps, Riki cant do shit.
The big breaking point is really that he doesnt function well at all without item/lvl advantage. This was already his weakness as safelane carry. Even as safelane carry often by midgame if you arent snowballing you'll often find you out you cant get into the fray to deal damage without getting bursted down. And with no team fight ulti or similar you need to be able do that. And that is the weakness of a safelane Riki. By putting him offlane you're amplifying his biggest weakness to the point where he needs to have an extremely fortunate laning/early game stage to be relevant come midgame. With items of similar value as say Tranqs + Blink (Centaur) or Arcanes + Soul ring (Timber) these offlaners can do lots of work even against more farmed enemy cores. Give Riki any items of similar value and he still can accomplish little to nothing.
Also to mention he has no farming/jungling abilities or other catch up mechanics. Where Bats, Dooms and Prophets can retreat to the jungle if they're shut down offlane, what does a Riki do?
On October 09 2014 23:23 ChunderBoy wrote:
he can do both, fulfilling different roles.
What role, beyond being a mobile ward (which other heroes do better and which you dont want to waste a #3 position slot on), would a Riki do in an average game from the offlane?
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he can secure every 2min rune. annoy enemy junglers and possibly kill them... leech lane and pull xp.
i mean if hes laning against a rly rly rly strong trilane that stuff like tide/cent cant go up against, he does better than them.
i think u underestimate how good not being see on minimap is. it makes a psychological difference, enemies wont play as ballsy on other lanes, coz riki can just retaliate for his ally with smoke.
im not saying that offlane riki is better than safelane tho
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I too go blink slark and think it makes him a god damn nightmare to fight and even harder to kill, but I do think Beesa has a good point about if you are against a solo support SB would be a good choice, because I've been that solo support and having to buy detection constantly has screwed me a few times out of very key items (force, blink, aghs) at timings that I generally get them
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On October 10 2014 01:25 ChunderBoy wrote:
annoy enemy junglers and possibly kill them... leech lane and pull xp.
Well, what good is spending a carry to semi shut down a jungler? Normally you want someone with little/no item dependancy shutting down someone with more item dependancy. If you're spending a carry role (Riki) to shut down an Axe, Doom or Prophet, I consider that very much a win for the Axe/Prophet/Doom. You'll always be trading yourself for whoever you shut down.
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If you wanted to roam/harass junglers with an invis hero why not go BH? BH can actually still contribute with little farm due to track and shuriken.
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Riki has 7 armor and 4 hp/s regen at level 1, that's more than enough for survivability in the offlane.
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just tried roaming riki. it sucks.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 13 2014 15:01 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Riki has 7 armor and 4 hp/s regen at level 1, that's more than enough for survivability in the offlane.
I don't think the question is whether he can survive in the offlane, it's whether he can be a useful hero with offlane farm when he has no nukes, a soft disable that requires you to be in very close range, and item-dependent burst damage.
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On October 14 2014 05:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 15:01 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Riki has 7 armor and 4 hp/s regen at level 1, that's more than enough for survivability in the offlane. I don't think the question is whether he can survive in the offlane, it's whether he can be a useful hero with offlane farm when he has no nukes, a soft disable that requires you to be in very close range, and item-dependent burst damage.
I've been playing some Riki these last couple of days and he definitely can be useful even with offlane farm. What I usually do it this:
Buy a set of tangos, a stout shield and three branches. Level Permanent Invis, get a ward from the support and block the pull-camp in a place that makes it hard to de-ward. I usually skip creep-blocking to be able to scout their supports and make sure they don't have sentries while they're walking to lane. My skill build is the standard 1-1-3-1
I don't show myself at all until level two, since I suck at last-hitting, and instead get the odd creep whenever I can. If they have sentries I just play like you with any other hero in the offlane without a solid escape. Once I get level 2 I go for more last hits, not all of them ofc, but taking a bit of damage here is fine. You have fucking 4,5 hp reg. As soon as I hit level 6 I roam to middle for a gank and then I just look for supports to pick up. You'll end up with orb of venom, power threads and a diff. blade decently fast and just be a fucking nuisance after that.
Honestly, with level 3 in backstab you have 100% bonus damage. You don't need that many items on top of that to be able to make good use of the damage. You can blink up to 3 times at level 6. I've played games vs. a team with bounty and slardar and still crushed them.
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biggest problem with riki offlane: you could have offlaned someone useful. he has no presence in the lane (quite literally he just wants to stand there invisible) and dual lanes are way more popular now. In a 1v2 especiallty you need to atleast try to obstruct their safelane farm.
hes extremely prone to being shut down, at least gold wise. You then depend on him snowballing mid game, but he is pretty poor at fighting until he has items up, and if you don't snowball you are rendered useless.
i mean it works sometimes, but you could just play bounty hunter and at least offer track gold for your team. or play an offlane with presence, like tide, NP, centaur, DS, etc
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anybody think this hero is good?
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VG seems to think he's good (they've had iceiceice run him in the offlane a lot) & aui said on stream that he thinks riki offlane is pretty good too
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On December 15 2014 15:14 tehh4ck3r wrote:
VG seems to think he's good (they've had iceiceice run him in the offlane a lot) & aui said on stream that he thinks riki offlane is pretty good too
i've looked up the pro games where he was used and it doesnt really impress me
i'd just like to hear somebody try to give a reason why this hero is good. i've been trying to play him offlane and while fun, it feels very underwhelming, like any other hero could do very well offlane when he does well offlane. i can see how hed do well against some greedy lanes, but thats about it.
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The only thing I can think of is that all invis heroes are good in that they make the enemy supports poor. If you are going for that then riki is pretty good due to his cloud.
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Bumping this thread because this hero is ownage and deserves some love.
My "core" item build is Power Treads, PMS, Diffusal Blade and Skadi.
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Why not PMS before PT?
I prefer smaller items than Skadi after Diffusal Blade like Vlad's, Basher, even S&Y
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oov is generally enough until late late game. I love pms boots oov treads diffusal
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So what do people think with the new changes?
Battlefury is a new flashy pick-up with riki, but is it gimmicky since it doesn't play to riki's other strengths (AGI bonus damage notably) all that much? With a 90 -> 70s cooldown ult it seems difficult to tell if the item impacts enough of the game to actually be viable even if it is pretty dominating in the right situations.
But what about Maelstorm rikimaru? Outside of ult, attack speed would probably work better on Riki because we expect high dmg from the AGI bonus (obviously not as good as actual +Agi though). The procs would then contribute to the AoE damage potential. Not as much as battlefury, but something still. It also comes online faster which would contribute better to Riki's ability to gank or fight early
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So hes a crappy version of ember spirit now?
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Uh only sort of. If you have people trapped in an area riki's ult will dominate a fight more than SoF because the ult ticks once/sec for up to 5 seconds which is a lot more dmg a lot faster. But people can get out of the aoe between the 1 second ticks.
But you don't get any of what makes ember ember spirit.
It's about as ember spirit as jugg with omnislash is.
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Damn they ruined my favourite pub hero...dropping from ~55% winrate to less than 45% winrate between patches. Wish they just left him as is.
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I just feel that Riki has lost alot of synergy with his abilities. Like before the idea behind Riki was basically pop cloud, kill dude. Now nothing really makes sense, his solo killing potential is way lower now, he still farms to slow to be a relevant teamfighter (and no one is afraid of a Riki they see farming anyway). I don't really see his place anymore, before the gameplan was basically kill stuff until you get items and give your team massive mapcontrol, now I just don't know what he is supposed to do. Before this patch, Riki could be a good pick in some situations and was only a small buff from being a really good hero, now not so much.
Hopefully with time someone comes up with a good way to play him or he gets some big buffs, since I kind of like the hero (smoke cloud imba).
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thoughts on tranquils vs power treads and playing riki as a 4/5?
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On December 24 2015 15:45 Klipsys wrote:
thoughts on tranquils vs power treads and playing riki as a 4/5?
unfortunately all i can say is play bounty hunter instead
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Gotta say, just played as Riki, his ult is shit. Best used as glorified phantom lancer dodge/od imprison save, the oh, shit, oh shit somebody come save me.
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i unfortunately agree.... this hero has been getting worse and worse before the patch, and then got even worse when the hero got re-worked... His ultimate is now my least favorite ultimate in the game. Maybe valve will do something about this in the next patch. who knows
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Actually his ultimate is pretty decent but just not overwhelming. It's like a hybrid of puck's phase shift + ember's sleight of fist, both of which are blink carriers. If the map is warded, just try to farm a gem up asap and start dewarding. If you're dusted, just purge yourself from diffusal. His ultimate is best used on heros with channeling spells (like CM, warlock, enigma, pudge, etc) or illusion heros like PL and CK. One thing i agree on is that he's not played right by most people atm.
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On March 31 2016 12:00 xluik wrote:
Actually his ultimate is pretty decent but just not overwhelming. It's like a hybrid of puck's phase shift + ember's sleight of fist, both of which are blink carriers. If the map is warded, just try to farm a gem up asap and start dewarding. If you're dusted, just purge yourself from diffusal. His ultimate is best used on heros with channeling spells (like CM, warlock, enigma, pudge, etc) or illusion heros like PL and CK. One thing i agree on is that he's not played right by most people atm.
The ult doesn't hit illusions anymore. They patched it after battlefury riki got popular. Which means it's actually bad vs Illusions heros since you only hit the real one, not the illusions.
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i thought the ult doesn't hit creeps but does hit illusions. Last i played that hero was on Sunday so...
Edit: Oh wow, it got patched but I didn't notice. Ok. Wrong info I guess on being good against illusion heros.
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On March 31 2016 12:07 xluik wrote:
i thought the ult doesn't hit creeps but does hit illusions. Last i played that hero was on Sunday so...
Edit: Oh wow, it got patched but I didn't notice. Ok. Wrong info I guess on being good against illusion heros.
No problem, they changed it a month? back or something in a small patch for bugs and stuff. Not a lot of fanfare, a lot of people missed it.
I was mostly using ult to dodge/stall, was just trolling in unranked with a friend, ds/riki lane.
That said, hero feels underwhelming, like there doesn't even feel like he has a niche anymore. Will be interesting to see what is done with it. Rework abilities, or buff them possibly.
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I really thought roaming 3/4 riki had some promise. It wasn't great but it had kind of a greedy-bounty thing going that I could see finding a niche with a bit more tweaking.
The old old old one was the definition of pubcancer. The new one is just plain bad. Icefrog needs to start again.
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take a look at night hound from HoN.
since the earliest days, they made it so that riki (for the purposes of discussion here) loses invis if silenced. to balance around that, riki gained charges of invis where he retains it in situations where he should lose it so long as he has charges. charges were then removed but the silence interaction stayed. sounds convoluted but interesting nonetheless.
let's take a look at his skills, albeit it's a hero designed around a faster paced game.
as a ganking hero,
smokescreen works the same in both games but with a much larger CD in HoN at 9s downtime between casts at max level. comparatively, it's a much better value point in dota 2 since the duration and cd are static at all levels.
at level 1, it's 40% misschance and 25% slow, a silence, for up to 6 seconds. mana cost is... you know, for a hero like riki it's basically a storm hammer to sven. luckily it's a hero that builds treads relatively fast.
blink strike is once again similar, with the added difference that it's more worthwhile for the HoN version. just greater damage from lower levels and a higher ceiling at 50% more damage. 120 bonus damage at max which is quite the difference at 4s CD. this was the old blink strike in dota 2 prior to 6.82 and was probably seen as too strong in pubs.
they changed it to have charges starting from level 6 (it was his ulti) where it did 40/70/100+backstab as it works now. levels 11/16 didn't make much of a difference to the utility of the skill, but it's all moot now since the skill is now a nerfed version of the first iteration of the skill. it's strictly 50% less damage. interestingly, the damage is applied as magical, i'm assuming just the bonus damage and it seems like a small added benefit to low armored supports earlier into the game.
the following skills are what sets rikimaru as the hero it is in dota 2.
backstab has almost always been that passive that you upgrade for scalability in agi damage.
it now weighs heavily into your fade-time and thus your survivability. a two second difference between levels 1 and 3 is a world of difference imo. it pretty much means you need a fast level 5 if you want to be able to contend in a lane as a pos 1-3. it is a hero that's strong against very bad players who take harass, let riki have levels, and run away from smokescreen often... and it will forever remain that way.
playing from the safelane, i think you'd still start PMS into boots aquila, treads/wand, drums route that most safelane farmers are going these days. from where do you go then? well your support takes lane and you walk into enemy jungle. if they're good, you get crushed. if you don't get crushed, it's basically par for the course except you put some supports in the grave, and your support is getting some xp and farm in the safelane if they can manage. the problem with all that is that their offlane is getting a lot out of it, and there's nothing you can do about it until you get your first real item, 4-5 kills later.
there is no farming speed that takes advantage of the character strengths, it's straight up a ganking hero with one real purpose in killing heroes repeatedly. imho what made night hound great in HoN pubs was his low fade time. hits 6, paradigm shifts. it is now in dota 2 and since pretty much the beginning a hero that preys on weak players and weak lanes.
what's important to know though is that using items does not break invis. and i guess this is where the utility/roaming support idea comes in. force staff, hex, glimmer, quelling blade, etc. you name it. it's a walking silence bot that can use items on you at will. it also offers nothing than a niche support game in lane and a small window to snowball into a ganking support pre-midgame--once again--if your opponents are playing poorly (quite literally).
so i think one of these fighting patches, you might see a riki in pos "1"/"1.5" where you offer another player the chance to become core while he's busy making the other team poor. otherwise the hero is just a gateway drug into playing dota 2, which doesn't last very long.
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The current version is mind-boggingly dull, even though I can see what IF was trying to do with the design. I agree that it needs to be changed. The hero just doesn't have any style at the moment.
The version with Blink Strike ulti was pretty cool, though.
Maybe change his current Blink Strike to gain charges just like DP's Spirit Siphon and balance the hero around that.
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SoCal8910 Posts
idk I think this current version has some promise. his ult could be better, but I think the design is neat with blink strike. perhaps a root/slow or a blind and some numbers tweaks would make 3/4 position riki worth picking up
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The problem style wise is his ult overlaps too much. It feels like some sad mix between SoF and Omnislash.
I almost wish the ult was capped at 1 attack for 1 second, but given a much shorter cooldown. Something where you'd use it to deal a burst of teamfight oriented damage, but it'd also function a bit more like PL's doppleganger where you use it to get some invincibility time. So you'd activate it, Riki would disappear, then in 1 second strike everything around him and reappear. Or charges, but I don't like charges on abilities. But then that's just SoF but worse because it doesn't hit heroes.
The problem with is now is there's such a narrow window when the ult does enough damage to be worthwhile for the damage. Too much farm and your right clicks are way more damage, too little and it doesn't matter anyways. The invincibility of it is great, but typically being invulnerable for that long has limited uses when it comes at the cost of a practical ultimate.
It's just a really underwhelming ultimate the way the numbers are now.
Thematically Riki is a mess. Even if his numbers were tweaked to be decent he'd still somehow be less centered around the invisibility than the other invis heroes. Brood, Slark, Clinkz, Nyx, Treant, and BH all have way more practical and versatile invisibility mechanics because they accomplish some sort of hero goal. Riki's invis is just sort of this awkward way for him to get into/out of fights.
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idk i kinda like riki ult... it's awkward but it has decent potential for baiting the enemy team (using it as a phase shift) and dealing plenty of aoe damage, especially after you pick up diffusal...
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I've actually been having rather good luck running it out of the offlane in ~3.5k mrr games
I think the reason it has been working for me is I am able to place a large burden on the supports. He's hard to keep out of xp range since invis lets you sneak around sentries and soak even when 3 are on the lane. If the supports leave you can punish the farmer with denies because backstab makes up for your farm disadvantage. You just have to be careful and not try things when supports could come in unless a creep wave will be showing up for you to blink back to.
Your early power spike comes with your ult and level 4 blink so I like to max it by 7 over invis and cloud because it lets you really kill people and then go looking for a few fights. After that phase I look for a spare lane to finish off a diffusal.
The ult isn't too good offensively early on unless you had a 1v1 lane or something, but it is effective in team fights as a zoning tool, ok damage, and has good defensive potential to interrupt focus fire. However, a skadi does make the ult pretty terrifying.
If his ult hit creeps it would give him too much farming ability I think and if just hero illusions were added it would lead the the hero to become a niche counter pick, which I do not think is particularly good hero design.
If I were going to change something to try to make him a little stronger, I would just give him more stats and maybe a little more move speed to help him early.
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On April 01 2016 12:48 Gimpb wrote:
I've actually been having rather good luck running it out of the offlane in ~3.5k mrr games
I think the reason it has been working for me is I am able to place a large burden on the supports. He's hard to keep out of xp range since invis lets you sneak around sentries and soak even when 3 are on the lane. If the supports leave you can punish the farmer with denies because backstab makes up for your farm disadvantage. You just have to be careful and not try things when supports could come in unless a creep wave will be showing up for you to blink back to.
Your early power spike comes with your ult and level 4 blink so I like to max it by 7 over invis and cloud because it lets you really kill people and then go looking for a few fights. After that phase I look for a spare lane to finish off a diffusal.
The ult isn't too good offensively early on unless you had a 1v1 lane or something, but it is effective in team fights as a zoning tool, ok damage, and has good defensive potential to interrupt focus fire. However, a skadi does make the ult pretty terrifying.
If his ult hit creeps it would give him too much farming ability I think and if just hero illusions were added it would lead the the hero to become a niche counter pick, which I do not think is particularly good hero design.
If I were going to change something to try to make him a little stronger, I would just give him more stats and maybe a little more move speed to help him early.
not to totally shit on your experience, but offlane played well is probably the easiest role to get way more than you should in a 3k game. that's my bracket, and whenever i'm offlane against all but hte most competent supports, i usually do way more than i should as whatever hero i am.
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Yes, the appropriate greediness of picks varies with brackets, but what of it? I stated the mmr bracket to give the comments context so readers could decide if it is relevant to them.
Frankly, sentry/dust spam and things people think are hard counter picks like bounty/slar/zues are something I see all the time and in my games. My experience is that I rarely find myself in situations where I could last hit much with any hero other than ench/furion/druid and mostly soak in lane.
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My friend plays him as roamer transitioning into damage items with great success in 4.5k. He struggles a bit when the avg mmr goes up though as people get better at sentry warding. Personally I wish he'd start playing BH instead.
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SoCal8910 Posts
idk, with the gold/xp swings, anyone can be bounty. riki has a silence and 2 potential escapes.
I personally like his ultimate because you can dodge things with it and consequently bait people into their deaths. I had a couple decent games with him yesterday, but you really need to go HAM and snowball so you can get your items or else you're gonna have a bad time against certain heroes.
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alright, well..
you have heroes who are more or less efficient with items, with levels, and with pieces of the map available.
riki is one of those super niche derp heroes that looks and feels good when all the right situations occur.
you're invis until you attack, get to walk wherever the damn you want, and get to kill basically any hero you spot alone.
except you're not slot efficient, die quite easily with an appropriate level of lockdown, which most teams have, and depend on autoattacks from one direction. if bristleback's quills werent stacking or as good as they are now, the hero would serve the other role of tanking damage, with utility in that it's a much wider angle.
i can easily see the situation where a TP reaction tries to turn your gank around and turns into a double kill for you.
that is, if you are fed pot roast for thanksgiving and that same bad play which allowed you to play so freely and casually all game resulted in easier and easier kills for you--in effect, making kills on the better players on that team easier as well.
why doesn't support bristle work? because the hero needs an item or two quite quickly.
why does support riki work? because he has a a damn silence, and walks past observer wards like a bounty would.
and why does bounty absolutely work? because his kit is built around early game utility in slow, easy damage, needing very little. riki needs levels to achieve anywhere near the same level of damage. everyone seems to forget he's one of the slowest characters in the game.
what are you going to build, tranquils and carry clarities? how are you going to afford the boots that you so desperately need? how are you going to deal any damage after the first minutes of the game without levels?
pretty easy to answer, you're leeching off a lane with 500/600 life total and sitting there waiting for simple kills to appear, except you need more than BH, except there's no later game if you don't leech off your lanes further, except you are complete food with one good ability to your name: smoke screen.. unnnntil bkb's arrive.
it's what every person who runs with their arms swinging behind their backs dreams of.
the funny thing is, the item that was basically designed for this hero, sange & yasha is pronounced wrong by the entire dota 2 cast and now most if not all of the community, much like godz and the word "melee". real japanophiles will notice, and this is my time to shine as an educational riki player who gives zero damns about actually playing a viable hero in competitive.
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I feel like I am always going back to base with this hero. Sustain items don't seem to suit him, but I feel like after each gank I end up at 25% HP and end up needing to go heal. Not to mention jungling with him is barely possible (I know you shouldn't be afk jungling with this hero but you can definitely make an argument that farming a lane isn't ideal since you want to try be off the map as much as possible.
Any ideas on a sustain item that might fit with this hero? Thinking either drums (HP regen isn't much but better than nothing), tranquils (if playing offlane/roaming riki) or maybe Vanguard into eventual abyssal?
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On May 14 2016 13:46 Ryder. wrote:
I feel like I am always going back to base with this hero. Sustain items don't seem to suit him, but I feel like after each gank I end up at 25% HP and end up needing to go heal. Not to mention jungling with him is barely possible (I know you shouldn't be afk jungling with this hero but you can definitely make an argument that farming a lane isn't ideal since you want to try be off the map as much as possible.
Any ideas on a sustain item that might fit with this hero? Thinking either drums (HP regen isn't much but better than nothing), tranquils (if playing offlane/roaming riki) or maybe Vanguard into eventual abyssal?
Urn
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Casual Ring of Regen, eventually building into Vlad's?
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Didn't think about Urn, seems decent if its roaming riki. Otherwise casual regen ring into vlads or drums makes sense. Thanks
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Vlads is a waste of money for that timing
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Which timing? I certainly wouldn't finish the Vlad's before Diffusal, but the casual ring is really good value and getting it after does allow him to clear camps while resetting between ganks.
(E): On an unrelated note, how should I play a position 5 roaming Riki?
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On May 15 2016 09:52 Buckyman wrote:
Which timing? I certainly wouldn't finish the Vlad's before Diffusal, but the casual ring is really good value and getting it after does allow him to clear camps while resetting between ganks.
(E): On an unrelated note, how should I play a position 5 roaming Riki?
Casual ring is just a +2 HP Regen, hardly enough to sustain you.
The timing is before Diffusal. As you agreed, you do not want to do Vlad's first. Anyway Urn has offensive features as well.
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Thoughts on Mask of Madness? It seems valuable for burst DPS during Smoke Screen and allowing Riki to farm jungle between ganks to stay off the map. Furthermore, its damage taken amplification was lowered a bit and Tricks of the Trade can buy time for Blink Strike to come off cooldown for escape.
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If you're having trouble laning, just buy more Tangos. Starting out with 8 tangos (2 sets) should be the norm for a Riki player now that his passive regen is gone.
Also, Mask of Madness isn't the lifesteal item you're looking for.
Get a Helm of the Dominator. You get armor, lifesteal, and hp regen to sustain you plenty. Go grab a small satyr from the neutral camp. You can use its purge ability 4 times, and it's only a 3 second cooldown for a 5 second duration slow. Timed correctly that's a 20 second slow which is more than enough time to kill any hero in the game.
You could also go for a big satyr if you want, for an extra +6 hp regen and an aoe nuke. But I prefer the small satyr which is clearly better because you can also use the purge to take debuffs off yourself in bad situations plus you can even blink strike to it for escape.
I still recommend getting Diffusal Blade before this, but HotD is an option if you're severely behind and need an edge.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On May 16 2016 07:34 aeroblaster wrote:
If you're having trouble laning, just buy more Tangos. Starting out with 8 tangos (2 sets) should be the norm for a Riki player now that his passive regen is gone.
Also, Mask of Madness isn't the lifesteal item you're looking for.
Get a Helm of the Dominator. You get armor, lifesteal, and hp regen to sustain you plenty. Go grab a small satyr from the neutral camp. You can use its purge ability 4 times, and it's only a 3 second cooldown for a 5 second duration slow. Timed correctly that's a 20 second slow which is more than enough time to kill any hero in the game.
You could also go for a big satyr if you want, for an extra +6 hp regen and an aoe nuke. But I prefer the small satyr which is clearly better because you can also use the purge to take debuffs off yourself in bad situations plus you can even blink strike to it for escape.
I still recommend getting Diffusal Blade before this, but HotD is an option if you're severely behind and need an edge.
The idea behind a mask of madness is to get as many right clicks in before smoke screen wears off. The good thing about picking it up on this hero is now you have recourse when it does. The enemy can't simply turn around on you anymore bc of your blink strike and your ultimate.
As for regen, ferry out a salve to yourself while you coordinate your next attack. Core riki should hardly be farming creeps if possible and staying off the map if possible so the enemy is never at ease.
Anyhow, I predict this hero is gonna become a popular 3 or 4 pos. His ability to turn into a core after he helps the team is really good. I've said it for a couple patches but perhaps kuro at Epicenter will make the dream a reality.
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The idea behind a mask of madness is to get as many right clicks in before smoke screen wears off
I know that, but it makes you insta-die to aoe which is why I generally avoid it.
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On May 16 2016 12:58 aeroblaster wrote:Show nested quote +The idea behind a mask of madness is to get as many right clicks in before smoke screen wears off I know that, but it makes you insta-die to aoe which is why I generally avoid it.
If you're getting murdered by AoE when you're trying to kill someone as Riki, it's a fairly clear sign that you shouldn't be playing Riki in that game.
Or you need to be far more selective of the targets you go on.
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Does MoM even give more extra hits compared to Echo Sabre if you're relying on smoke as your way of not dieing?
If we're talking about a full smoke duration you get +2 hits with Echo Sabre over that period which is pretty big.
Out of the Mask's three effects (movespeed, IAS, and Lifesteal) the only one that's really really attractive to Riki's playstyle is the IAS. You generally have no problems with movespeed especially if/when you get a diffusal blade. Lifesteal is nice, but is it really core to Riki's playstyle?
Meanwhile Riki benefits from all of the stats provided by echo sabre pretty well; you get some extra HP and nice mana sustain.
I guess an important question would be which item offers better farming potential during the downtime; is it better to use the mana regen to farm with smoke & blink or the lifesteal and active effect to sustain through camps.
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been seeing a shitton of roaming rikis this past month. Is he now a roamer? What makes him comfortable to do that as much as Bounty Hunter?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
doesnt need to spend mana or pay attention to cooldowns to be invisible. cloud is good. naturally transitions into a right clicker
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On June 10 2016 17:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
been seeing a shitton of roaming rikis this past month. Is he now a roamer? What makes him comfortable to do that as much as Bounty Hunter?
I think the mana change to bounty invis helped riki become a more favourable roamer.
riki needs no clarities/no mana for a large portion of the game. Meaning he never really has to go back to base early game so appears to me to have a stronger impact on lanes.
Most people sentry lvl1 so you need counter sentries as bounty. but you cannot afford counter sentries, tangoes, oov and clarities. Riki can get counter-sentries without forcing himself back to base after a few minutes.
Also lifestealer becoming meta has made roaming riki way stronger mid-game onwards.
There are so many usually hard to kill heroes that are just guaranteed dead to a riki ls bomb.
Not only that but he is quite favoured against lifestealer (as well as slark who's also super popular)
Plus a lot of bounty hunters these days just seem to feed. People using a lot of detection and bounty no escape. Often riki can still get out with blink and/or smoke.
in my opinion those are what are making riki a stronger invis roamer now, compare to last patch
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
ya hes hard to kill, if he gets into trouble he can just ult and wait for blink strike to come off cooldown. also as mentioned above, really good against slark
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Dont really think its the roaming he excels at. He does very much lack damage early levels, and doesnt have a nuke like BH.
However, BH turns into a track-bot and a 350dmg nuke come mid/lategame. Track is great and all, but only if you win fights. And BH generally contributes very little to winning fights.
Riki on the other hand can somewhat reliably make life hell for weak supports. Taking out that pesky Dazzle or something in a Cloud is no joke. And as other pointed out, Riki is much harder to kill.
Cloud overall is actually an amazing skill. Its like a slightly smaller static storm with 11sec CD. It very much forces enemies to get BKBs/MKBs/Forces which they otherwise might not want to make.
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His roaming is actually quite average. He is all about cloud usage. Bonus that he is a great naix bomb carrier.
Thing about riki is that if you don't have any impact, you fall off quite substantially. Meanwhile bounty just needs to press R to contribute throughout the game.
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I find the opposite for Riki in some ways, but that's mostly my own experience in pubs.
Like it doesn't matter when you get Diffusal Blade + 1 item, you'll constantly have a big impact once you get them. So even if it takes you forever to get them you're very dangerous in fights once you do.
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On June 10 2016 22:59 DucK- wrote:
His roaming is actually quite average. He is all about cloud usage. Bonus that he is a great naix bomb carrier.
Thing about riki is that if you don't have any impact, you fall off quite substantially. Meanwhile bounty just needs to press R to contribute throughout the game.
Yes, that was my fear in trying him; but I've seen players from as low as 3K still roam as Riki.
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I am really having trouble with nailing how to play roaming Riki.
Is he good in every line-up or situationally?
Is he someone that goes in early on fights or one of the last ones?
I also don't understand what to build before Diffusal Blade. There's so many choices that all seem ideal:
1. Tranquil or Phase Boots
2. Urn of Shadows or Drum of Endurance
3. Echo Sabre? Ring of Aquila? PMS?
They all seem really good and yet, I can't pinpoint of useful they will be.
I know the skill build right now is mostly max E then Blink then Smoke, is that because of the increased Smoke mana cost?
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When you max your best skill last you are going to have problems
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Okay ignoring the pub matches since I can't be assed to look at those the only top teams that max CnD over smoke first are vgr and fnatic and they still max smoke 2nd so I don't know where you are getting this max e into w into q last
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Roaming Riki is best in compositions that prefer fighting over farming and with low CD/high burst abilities or Naix. He's also very good against lineups with greedy junglers/cores.
In terms of fights, you're main job is to provide vision (allowing your team to find a key target and blow them up) and disrupt enemy movement with smokescreen. You want to go in early and help get a good initiation --> tricks of the trade --> more smokescreens. You only come out of stealth at the end of fights when chasing down heroes or w.e Your actual teamfight damage output is negligible.
1. Tranquil vs Phase: Both are fine, I get phase if it's super early and I'm doing quite well. Tranquils for games where I'm having an average time.
2. Urn of Shadows is amazing and I consider it absolutely core. You can use urn to disable blinks and in general be a huge pest. I think Drums is negligble considering how little damage support/utility riki does.
3. In higher level games your cores are all gonna be more efficient and able to utilize available farm, Infused Raindrop is the mana item for a roaming riki.
At higher level games I feel it's very hard to transition from a support/roaming into a hard carry because you ideally dont want to be farming lanes or appearing on the map. Riki excels at giving his team vision (via very deep wards) and denying it from the enemy. Consequently, your cores can farm in much greedier positions.
I think Smoke Screen first is the build at higher levels of play, but WE max is viable if you are doing really really really well and would like to transition. I think blink dagger is also pretty good, but it all kinda depends on what your team needs and how well you're doing.
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On July 09 2016 15:54 Thetwinmasters wrote:
Okay ignoring the pub matches since I can't be assed to look at those the only top teams that max CnD over smoke first are vgr and fnatic and they still max smoke 2nd so I don't know where you are getting this max e into w into q last
I still don't understand why Smoke is to be maxed first? You didn't explain anything, you just keep stating what I already looked up.
OG maxed CnD then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2448310164
Col maxed CnD then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2466075858
Fnatic maxed Cnd then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2466903757
Alliance maxed Smoke then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2467484798
iG maxed CnD then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2467763435
iG and Col did it twice also (not listed). I understand Smoke maxed at the mid-game due to engagements, but there are still some players who max Blink.
So what you're saying is not accurate or even explained and that's just pro matches, not even pub. games (the games I'm learning and playing Riki with)
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On July 09 2016 15:54 Baggage wrote:
Roaming Riki is best in compositions that prefer fighting over farming and with low CD/high burst abilities or Naix. He's also very good against lineups with greedy junglers/cores.
In terms of fights, you're main job is to provide vision (allowing your team to find a key target and blow them up) and disrupt enemy movement with smokescreen. You want to go in early and help get a good initiation --> tricks of the trade --> more smokescreens. You only come out of stealth at the end of fights when chasing down heroes or w.e Your actual teamfight damage output is negligible.
1. Tranquil vs Phase: Both are fine, I get phase if it's super early and I'm doing quite well. Tranquils for games where I'm having an average time.
2. Urn of Shadows is amazing and I consider it absolutely core. You can use urn to disable blinks and in general be a huge pest. I think Drums is negligble considering how little damage support/utility riki does.
3. In higher level games your cores are all gonna be more efficient and able to utilize available farm, Infused Raindrop is the mana item for a roaming riki.
At higher level games I feel it's very hard to transition from a support/roaming into a hard carry because you ideally dont want to be farming lanes or appearing on the map. Riki excels at giving his team vision (via very deep wards) and denying it from the enemy. Consequently, your cores can farm in much greedier positions.
I think Smoke Screen first is the build at higher levels of play, but WE max is viable if you are doing really really really well and would like to transition. I think blink dagger is also pretty good, but it all kinda depends on what your team needs and how well you're doing.
I think Blink Dagger is to help with escapes also (Ult -> Blink Away).
This helps a lot. My fear with max Smoke is the mana cost as when I maxed W/E, I still had a lot of trouble having enough mana if a fight goes long.
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Ah, that explains a bit. Thanks!
So I can understand maxing Smoke second, but why first over CnD then? Wouldn't the first level be enough during the laning phase and max out CnD first then Smoke?
Mana Cost, Cooldown, Duration, Slow are all static regardless of the level.
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Larger AoE. Substantially larger miss %. Better zoning in fights. Smoke Screen has strong applications both defensively/offensively.
Edit: One other overlooked factor that I've also only just considered is difficulty exp gains. If the game is slow tempo, you aren't going to get that many kills and gold/exp. So how you spend your early points is absolutely critical. I am of the belief that at higher MMR's it's much much harder to spiral out of control, so you want your most flexible/disruptive/versatile skill max'd out sooner rather than later. I think with a really really really good start (and a 2nd support being ward bitch) with like fb, 3 kills 0 deaths at 8 mins CnD max would be great, but it feels really situational to me.
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Real question is not what items to get in which situations or in which order to prioritize abilities in which situations. Real question is how do Riki-pickers sleep at night xD
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Rant aside, lemme weight in my 2 cent.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2016 14:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am really having trouble with nailing how to play roaming Riki.
Is he good in every line-up or situationally?
Is he someone that goes in early on fights or one of the last ones?
I also don't understand what to build before Diffusal Blade. There's so many choices that all seem ideal:
1. Tranquil or Phase Boots
2. Urn of Shadows or Drum of Endurance
3. Echo Sabre? Ring of Aquila? PMS?
They all seem really good and yet, I can't pinpoint of useful they will be.
I know the skill build right now is mostly max E then Blink then Smoke, is that because of the increased Smoke mana cost?
As a pos 4 support Riki, there are so many things that come into play when deciding which items to acquire and in which order. How much does the pos 5 benefit from boots? How many wards sentries will Riki have to buy? Etc.
Generally speaking, though, if for some reason you're doing really well early on, Phase boots are amazing, but they are luxury so often times Tranquil seems like the obvious go-to pick up. Wand, Urn seem like reasonable item progression. Drum sounds crazy luxury. When to get Echo Sabre? Never xD. If the game goes in such a direction that the scouting and disruptive initiation of pos 4 riki just doesnt cut it and your lineup is desperately lacking damage and you deem it wise to try to transition into more of a damage dealer, maybe you could get Ring of Aquila before your Diffusal.
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Mana Cost, Cooldown, Duration, Slow are all static regardless of the level.
Radius goes from 250 to 325 - in other words for math-illiterate people the AoE increases by 69 percent.
Miss chance goes from 40 percent to 70 percent - in other words EHP increase against attacks from people who do not have true sight goes from 67 percent to 333 percent.¹
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But invisibility = invincibility
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On July 09 2016 20:26 1 2 1 2 wrote:Radius goes from 250 to 325 - in other words for math-illiterate people the AoE increases by 69 percent. Miss chance goes from 40 percent to 70 percent - in other words EHP increase against attacks from people who do not have true sight goes from 67 percent to 333 percent.¹
The larger area is also incredibly useful for blocking off enemy heroes trying to escape in my mind. if you throw it in their path of retreat enemy heroes either have to walk the direct path of 325*2 at a 25% move slow or take a longer route around. Also at level 4 smoke screen covers basically the entire middle ramp from side to side.
CnD on the other hand scales directly with agility which a roaming support riki won't have in abundance early on. At higher levels I feel like the fade time doesn't really matter all that much.
My overall preference is:
Very good game: Phase/Urn/Diffusal/Vlads/Basher
Ok or bad Game: Tranq/Urn/Diffusal
On top of that OOV, Raindrops & Wards are all helpful. I max smoke screen first no matter the game, if ahead the larger area is super helpful in keeping the enemy from coming back by winning big fights especially since they won't have BKBs yet. If behind max CnD won't do much with low levels and agility.
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If you're super tryhard, Gem + QB when you're team is ahead is also really good.
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On July 09 2016 21:35 HopLight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 20:26 1 2 1 2 wrote:Mana Cost, Cooldown, Duration, Slow are all static regardless of the level. Radius goes from 250 to 325 - in other words for math-illiterate people the AoE increases by 69 percent. Miss chance goes from 40 percent to 70 percent - in other words EHP increase against attacks from people who do not have true sight goes from 67 percent to 333 percent.¹ The larger area is also incredibly useful for blocking off enemy heroes trying to escape in my mind. if you throw it in their path of retreat enemy heroes either have to walk the direct path of 325*2 at a 25% move slow or take a longer route around. Also at level 4 smoke screen covers basically the entire middle ramp from side to side. CnD on the other hand scales directly with agility which a roaming support riki won't have in abundance early on. At higher levels I feel like the fade time doesn't really matter all that much. My overall preference is: Very good game: Phase/Urn/Diffusal/Vlads/Basher Ok or bad Game: Tranq/Urn/Diffusal On top of that OOV, Raindrops & Wards are all helpful. I max smoke screen first no matter the game, if ahead the larger area is super helpful in keeping the enemy from coming back by winning big fights especially since they won't have BKBs yet. If behind max CnD won't do much with low levels and agility.
What you wrote is very reasonable. Wand deserves mentioning, though. Particularly in games where the enemy team hasnt fed you for 322 reasons.
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I used to get Wand on Riki, but found myself six-slotted way too fast to get it.
Before Diffusal, I will have:
Tranq. Boots
Urn
OOV
Wind Lace
Magic Wand
TP
If I include Wards, there's no room for TP.
so Maxing Smoke is still the ideal choice because the larger radius and increased miss chance is so good early on? I mean, I figured that the AOE increase essentially increases the long the enemy is silenced (as they have more to traverse), but didn't think it was that amazing to make maxed first. Especially if the miss chance increase is negligible because the enemy's attack speed is so low already.
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On July 10 2016 06:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
I used to get Wand on Riki, but found myself six-slotted way too fast to get it.
Before Diffusal, I will have:
Tranq. Boots
Urn
OOV
Wind Lace
Magic Wand
TP
If I include Wards, there's no room for TP.
so Maxing Smoke is still the ideal choice because the larger radius and increased miss chance is so good early on? I mean, I figured that the AOE increase essentially increases the long the enemy is silenced (as they have more to traverse), but didn't think it was that amazing to make maxed first. Especially if the miss chance increase is negligible because the enemy's attack speed is so low already.
Assuming ordinary circumstances, you'd start with 2 sent tango oov (and 1 or 2 wards from pos 5 for you to place). Then it's time to try to acquire Boots, Stick, Raindrop, Wand while making sure courier is upgraded and wards/sentries are bought as needed. In an actual game where the enemy team knows how to play against pos 4 Riki and their draft is equipped to do so, even getting an urn is going to be a struggle. Personally, I wouldnt get the Wind Lace in most cases but obviously item progression is always situational and every choice has pros and cons.
So you'd end up with TBoots, Urn, OoV, Wand, TP, Wards. Diffusal is such a luxury item that getting rid of OoV or Wand by that time isn't a reason not to get either in the first place.
Also Smoke does not slow enemy attack speed and I dont think you understand the math given that you say the miss chance increase is negligible so let me break it down for you:
Lets assume the enemy affected by Cloud attack 5 times in total (which to me seems like a reasonable number but I'll be happy to do other numbers too).
lvl 1 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 1 %, chance to hit 1 time = 8 %, chance to hit 2 times = 23 %, chance to hit 3 times = 35 %, chance to hit 4 times = 26 %, chance to hit 5 times = 8 %
avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~3.0 (66 % EHP increase)
lvl 4 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 17 %, chance to hit 1 time = 36 %, chance to hit 2 times = 30 %, chance to hit 3 times = 13 %, chance to hit 4 times = 3 %, chance to hit 5 times = 0.243 % (1 out of 412)
avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~1.5 (333 % EHP increase)
In other words (and slightly simplified) if an enemy has to deal 1000 dmg to kill you, with lvl 1 Cloud, they need the equivalent of 1666 dmg to kill you and with lvl 4 Cloud, they need 3333 dmg to kill you.
1666 - 3333
Negligible? :DDDDD
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On July 10 2016 08:11 1 2 1 2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 06:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
I used to get Wand on Riki, but found myself six-slotted way too fast to get it.
Before Diffusal, I will have:
Tranq. Boots
Urn
OOV
Wind Lace
Magic Wand
TP
If I include Wards, there's no room for TP.
so Maxing Smoke is still the ideal choice because the larger radius and increased miss chance is so good early on? I mean, I figured that the AOE increase essentially increases the long the enemy is silenced (as they have more to traverse), but didn't think it was that amazing to make maxed first. Especially if the miss chance increase is negligible because the enemy's attack speed is so low already.
Assuming ordinary circumstances, you'd start with 2 sent tango oov (and 1 or 2 wards from pos 5 for you to place). Then it's time to try to acquire Boots, Stick, Raindrop, Wand while making sure courier is upgraded and wards/sentries are bought as needed. In an actual game where the enemy team knows how to play against pos 4 Riki and their draft is equipped to do so, even getting an urn is going to be a struggle. Personally, I wouldnt get the Wind Lace in most cases but obviously item progression is always situational and every choice has pros and cons. So you'd end up with TBoots, Urn, OoV, Wand, TP, Wards. Diffusal is such a luxury item that getting rid of OoV or Wand by that time isn't a reason not to get either in the first place. Also Smoke does not slow enemy attack speed and I dont think you understand the math given that you say the miss chance increase is negligible so let me break it down for you: Lets assume the enemy affected by Cloud attack 5 times in total (which to me seems like a reasonable number but I'll be happy to do other numbers too). lvl 1 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 1 %, chance to hit 1 time = 8 %, chance to hit 2 times = 23 %, chance to hit 3 times = 35 %, chance to hit 4 times = 26 %, chance to hit 5 times = 8 % avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~3.0 (66 % EHP increase) lvl 4 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 17 %, chance to hit 1 time = 36 %, chance to hit 2 times = 30 %, chance to hit 3 times = 13 %, chance to hit 4 times = 3 %, chance to hit 5 times = 0.243 % (1 out of 412) avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~1.5 (333 % EHP increase) In other words (and slightly simplified) if an enemy has to deal 1000 dmg to kill you, with lvl 1 Cloud, they need the equivalent of 1666 dmg to kill you and with lvl 4 Cloud, they need 3333 dmg to kill you. 1666 - 3333 Negligible? :DDDDD
So I guess CnD's 3-second delay is simply not worthwhile in comparison. Six seconds for the enemy to hit Riki for 1,6666 damage is a better insurance than CnD maxed and the 3-second delay (because if they have wards, that shorter amount of time won't matter).
Any reason players max CnD? Is just a more greedier/confident style because they know they can get away with it?
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On July 10 2016 08:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 08:11 1 2 1 2 wrote:On July 10 2016 06:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
I used to get Wand on Riki, but found myself six-slotted way too fast to get it.
Before Diffusal, I will have:
Tranq. Boots
Urn
OOV
Wind Lace
Magic Wand
TP
If I include Wards, there's no room for TP.
so Maxing Smoke is still the ideal choice because the larger radius and increased miss chance is so good early on? I mean, I figured that the AOE increase essentially increases the long the enemy is silenced (as they have more to traverse), but didn't think it was that amazing to make maxed first. Especially if the miss chance increase is negligible because the enemy's attack speed is so low already.
Assuming ordinary circumstances, you'd start with 2 sent tango oov (and 1 or 2 wards from pos 5 for you to place). Then it's time to try to acquire Boots, Stick, Raindrop, Wand while making sure courier is upgraded and wards/sentries are bought as needed. In an actual game where the enemy team knows how to play against pos 4 Riki and their draft is equipped to do so, even getting an urn is going to be a struggle. Personally, I wouldnt get the Wind Lace in most cases but obviously item progression is always situational and every choice has pros and cons. So you'd end up with TBoots, Urn, OoV, Wand, TP, Wards. Diffusal is such a luxury item that getting rid of OoV or Wand by that time isn't a reason not to get either in the first place. Also Smoke does not slow enemy attack speed and I dont think you understand the math given that you say the miss chance increase is negligible so let me break it down for you: Lets assume the enemy affected by Cloud attack 5 times in total (which to me seems like a reasonable number but I'll be happy to do other numbers too). lvl 1 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 1 %, chance to hit 1 time = 8 %, chance to hit 2 times = 23 %, chance to hit 3 times = 35 %, chance to hit 4 times = 26 %, chance to hit 5 times = 8 % avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~3.0 (66 % EHP increase) lvl 4 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 17 %, chance to hit 1 time = 36 %, chance to hit 2 times = 30 %, chance to hit 3 times = 13 %, chance to hit 4 times = 3 %, chance to hit 5 times = 0.243 % (1 out of 412) avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~1.5 (333 % EHP increase) In other words (and slightly simplified) if an enemy has to deal 1000 dmg to kill you, with lvl 1 Cloud, they need the equivalent of 1666 dmg to kill you and with lvl 4 Cloud, they need 3333 dmg to kill you. 1666 - 3333 Negligible? :DDDDD So I guess CnD's 3-second delay is simply not worthwhile in comparison. Six seconds for the enemy to hit Riki for 1,6666 damage is a better insurance than CnD maxed and the 3-second delay (because if they have wards, that shorter amount of time won't matter). Any reason players max CnD? Is just a more greedier/confident style because they know they can get away with it?
3-second delay is pretty useless whether you're a support or core Riki. If you're playing core Riki (to taunt an inferior team or whatever) I'd imagine 1-4-4 would be the skill build of choice because of the dmg. As a support Riki your damage is pretty insignicant whether you or not you max E. What support Riki offers is good early harass (lvl 1 CnD + OoV is pretty damn strong early on in the game), scouting intel through deep wards, enemy team's supports being poor due to buying detection and not being able to pull/stack freely while your offlaner is iron taloning it up & then there's Cloud an amazing ability. Honestly I cant think of a single competitive game with Riki where I thought to myself hey this game Riki should consider something else than 4-4-1. As for the ultimate lategame luxury support Riki item, Diffusal is amazing but by the time you reach this stage, you'd probably be higher lvl than 11 anyway.
Like I remember back in wc3 dota some of the competitve pinoy teams were fond of core riki for a time. Usually paired with Wisp for the steroids. With Overcharge and max E Riki is capable of dealing ridiculous dmg for that time in the game if you have a way to lock people down.
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Just feels like no one is going max Smoke these days nor Infused Raindrop but I am seeing a lot of Wind Lace and max CnD.
I'm going to play more Riki. I tried a few games with max CnD and overall, feels like I don't do much damage at all anyways, but I also noticed that some lanes are just not gankable because my allies don't have the reliable damage yet.
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Think the main reason to max CnD over SS is that ss disable doesn't scale well at all. Without other slows SS adds roughly 0.1 seconds slow&silence per level on an average target. So unless your target actually stays in ss and fights, levels in ss do very little.
CnD max on the other hand is still 35 dmg more at lvl 7 and half the fade time. Then again with the hero being as exp starved as he usually is on pos 5, I don't think it matters either way unless you are snowballing like crazy, in which case CnD is a lot better
So yeah tldr is that it probably doesn't matter at all how you skill after 1:1:1 if you play sup riki.
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On July 10 2016 10:58 Blackfeather wrote:
Think the main reason to max CnD over SS is that ss disable doesn't scale well at all. Without other slows SS adds roughly 0.1 seconds slow&silence per level on an average target. So unless your target actually stays in ss and fights, levels in ss do very little.
CnD max on the other hand is still 35 dmg more at lvl 7 and half the fade time. Then again with the hero being as exp starved as he usually is on pos 5, I don't think it matters either way unless you are snowballing like crazy, in which case CnD is a lot better
So yeah tldr is that it probably doesn't matter at all how you skill after 1:1:1 if you play sup riki.
Yes, this was my point-of-view as well. Most of the time, my opponent does not stay in the smoke; so the larger radius is kind of wasted overall until I have diffusal or a slow/stun to help out (beyond OOV).
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CnD over Blink strike is pretty much dependant on how aggressive you want to be. With CnD maxed first you will output abit more damage in early fights, while if you max Blink Strike you can go yolo dive towers at lvl 7 and stuff like that while still being fairly safe. I prefer Blink strike first cause it allows for more flexibility and CnD doesn't really provide that much added damage early on. Besides, one thing to keep in mind is that in your early ganks around the lanes, you shouldn't really be the one expected to deal alot of damage, it should be whoever is standing on the lane you are ganking.
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Well, if you're playing against people who don't know what Sentries do and who don't play coordinated against Riki, obviously, CnD becomes more and more attractive. On the other hand, if you're playing against people who have a clue, 69 % bigger AoE to your disruptive counter-initiation zoning ability becomes more attractive.
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if you think of it as a greatly balanced skill (which it probably is in fairness), it's a 69% increase.
otherwise, it strictly makes the aoe ~100 units larger. that is truesight detection range from towers, minus attack range. it's very little. in the best case, you're place it in front of a hero retreat path that they will run through, which would make it an even bigger increase.
poor placement or just faster characters makes that increase in aoe size completely negligible and that happens more often than not.
same sort of thing happens in pubs, you'll more likely get overleveled, so you get to add an extra level in cloak and dagger/smoke much earlier than you should be able to, so your earlier skillbuild matters less.
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Please share thoughts on pos 4 riki with 1/2 dragon lance.
Pro's : easier build-up, grants about 20 strength much needed for riki
con's : no mana break hence less damage, no purge
I am thinking something like 2 dragon lance into basher, maelstorm or 1 dragon lance into diffusal, basher and other core items.
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Depends on the game you have. Imo it's never ideal to get a second.
It's damage wise straight inferior to diffu, even for cost and that is disregarding that the purge is amazing for smoke cloud and ultimate.
If you want to bulk up you can still go dragon lance basher and get the same strength buildup, just with the added utility of basher once you finish your second item.
Imo 1 DL is okay as a first 2k gold investment, but you might as well just get the basher to tank up or build a drums to be more useful in teamfights.
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On April 30 2018 09:16 Archeon wrote:
Depends on the game you have. Imo it's never ideal to get a second.
It's damage wise straight inferior to diffu, even for cost and that is disregarding that the purge is amazing for smoke cloud and ultimate.
If you want to bulk up you can still go dragon lance basher and get the same strength buildup, just with the added utility of basher once you finish your second item.
Imo 1 DL is okay as a first 2k gold investment, but you might as well just get the basher to tank up or build a drums to be more useful in teamfights.
Hmmm... Makes sense. So with DL it can be like DL, BASHER, MAELSTORM n riki is pretty good. I missed the part that DL n basher give the same tankiness. Ty for pointing it out.
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On April 30 2018 08:15 arghyad1 wrote:
Please share thoughts on pos 4 riki with 1/2 dragon lance.
Pro's : easier build-up, grants about 20 strength much needed for riki
con's : no mana break hence less damage, no purge
I am thinking something like 2 dragon lance into basher, maelstorm or 1 dragon lance into diffusal, basher and other core items.
It's terrible. You don't get a lot of money unless you are getting kills, and DL doesnt give you anywhere near the solo or 2 man kill potential of a diffusal.
Strength is a wasted stat since you should rarely be caught out and have positional advantage via invis.
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On April 30 2018 11:38 Baggage wrote:
It's terrible.
+1
I used to play quite a bit of riki even before the recent series of patch and by then the most efficient lowcost strat - as in you're really getting nothing - was to stack aquilas. As a roaming riki, I would always get tranquils, aquila(s), and WARDS. Then, maybe, diffu then basher, if the game was going my way.
This has changed, for 3 reasons I'd say :
1°) Right now the new and improved riki has insane solo kill potential with his ultimate. Even with low farm.
2°) Bounty runes give more gold than ever.
3°) And, few weeks after those changes, people are more used to see/suffer from what a roaming riki can do - meaning they're more willing to let you reach that stage (almost nobody will freak out if you don't buy wards/take some time to farm/ks, etc).
The first change make diffusal blade a must have, as a first big item. It enhances/unlocks your solo skill potential (depending on the time you get it). Besides, it gives you the invis slow utility which is always good to have, and has amazing synergy with your cloud. It is much more potent than what dragon lances would ever give you, especially because the STR is rather wasted on riki - if you feel like you need the STR at this stage, you're doing it wrong.
The 2 other changes allows you to actually get it, in a timely manner. The sooner the better.
Basher is still good but as a 2nd big item. The utility it provides is very good but unreliable, the build-up is not as nice as diffu (no synergy with your bs + that 1.150 recipe  ), and I'd argue that 10 INT (diffu) are more useful than 10 STR (basher), early.
For me, "the" current build is : phase / aquila / (dust) / (raindrops) / diffu / basher
And get the +5 hp regen talent, it is good.
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On April 30 2018 15:05 Murlox wrote:+1 I used to play quite a bit of riki even before the recent series of patch and by then the most efficient lowcost strat - as in you're really getting nothing - was to stack aquilas. As a roaming riki, I would always get tranquils, aquila(s), and WARDS. Then, maybe, diffu then basher, if the game was going my way. This has changed, for 3 reasons I'd say : 1°) Right now the new and improved riki has insane solo kill potential with his ultimate. Even with low farm. 2°) Bounty runes give more gold than ever. 3°) And, few weeks after those changes, people are more used to see/suffer from what a roaming riki can do - meaning they're more willing to let you reach that stage (almost nobody will freak out if you don't buy wards/take some time to farm/ks, etc). The first change make diffusal blade a must have, as a first big item. It enhances/unlocks your solo skill potential (depending on the time you get it). Besides, it gives you the invis slow utility which is always good to have, and has amazing synergy with your cloud. It is much more potent than what dragon lances would ever give you, especially because the STR is rather wasted on riki - if you feel like you need the STR at this stage, you're doing it wrong. The 2 other changes allows you to actually get it, in a timely manner. The sooner the better. Basher is still good but as a 2nd big item. The utility it provides is very good but unreliable, the build-up is not as nice as diffu (no synergy with your bs + that 1.150 recipe ), and I'd argue that 10 INT (diffu) are more useful than 10 STR (basher), early. For me, "the" current build is : phase / aquila / (dust) / (raindrops) / diffu / basherAnd get the +5 hp regen talent, it is good.
Noted and I agree this is better. But I just thought of DL for those games where i m like dying in my first 2-3 ganks without getting the kills or the xp. Sometimes it gets hard to get 1k gold for the blades whereas i can add 24 damage on bactstab by accumulating 450 gold on me twice and without using cour. But if I am the 1 farming the lane DL is pointless.
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Yeah I get what you're saying, even still, for me it's nothing short of a waste.
Yes sometimes games don't go where you want to, for sure, but you're arguably making it worse by getting a DL instead of a diffu.
How to say... I don't think the +24 dmg on bs will ever be enough to justify not making a diffu first. Once you are at 450 gold for the band of elvenskin, you're basically 50% done with a blade of alacrity. So instead of buying a band, just... if anything, just go somewhere and farm your blade. People won't mind, they've all been destroyed by rikis enough, they know what farm does on this hero. Bounties give very good gold these times. You can KS with backstab (you can end your ult with that - this could require to level it a bit or not use it straight ahead).
For me, it's more of a "game sense / farming pattern" than anything, DL is simply not an option. Rather, not a good one.
ps : you could see it that way. It is your duty, and beneficial to your 4 teammates MMR, that you do get a diffu, asap.
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as a core player, i would rather give up a free lane and push, look for fights, or jungle so my riki can get the diffu at a reasonable timing. in most games its usually like 5-7 mins of farming needed, which isn't too bad. If i saw DL on his quickbuy i would tell him to take lane and farm diffu.
I can see the argument for basher first sometimes but yeah, diffu is too game changing for him.
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Conceptually, don't try solve with items what you can solve with positioning and play. If you feel more comfortable with a tankier build, I'd be more inclined to go double bracer into very-eventual atos, because that at least synergises with what you do.
It'd still be awful though, because its still a ton of money on stats you don't need and doesn't help against the items people would build against you anyways.
Aquila/wand/raindrops should keep you alive. If that's not enough, watch how other people play the hero and see how they stay alive.
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I used to swear by basher, but diffusal is just better as first item. I think for a non core riki, gold is a scarcity and you really want an item that do something rather than just give stats. Diffusal gives you the lockdown needed together with smokescreen before the force staff/ghost/eul/bkb etc comes into play.
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I used to swear by echo saber... but that was many patches ago and I always ended playing more of a (pub) pos5 than anything else. Invis warding is the shit. The item is pretty decent though - mana regen was an issue, you get a nice slow, some hp... build up was nice.
But yeah, even back then I don't think it was better than a diffu, and given today's situation, there's no question.
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my build guide for riki at 6k mmr is get sentry lvl 1 to counter enemy sentries,
phase, stick, aquila, (double aquila if low farm), diffusal into basher into aghs.
talents:
5hp reg
smoke talent
blink strike
aoe
dont try to farm to much if pos 4, try to scout enemy movement or setup kills with vision, when you hit 6 you can consider placing courier kill wards that you kill with ulti.
Around 13+ time into game you should start farming empty sidelines to speed up diffusal. A normal timing would be 17-21 min diffusal.
I belivie this is the obvious way to build/play riki, murlox said tranq but i cant see how thats better.
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Hey what, no, I said :
On April 30 2018 15:05 Murlox wrote:
As a roaming riki, I would always get tranquils, aquila(s), and WARDS. Then, maybe, diffu then basher, if the game was going my way.
This has changed, for 3 reasons I'd say : (...)
For me, "the" current build is : phase / aquila / (dust) / (raindrops) / diffu / basher
Also I'm a 4k noob (well, 3.8k noob, gaben been hating lately), so let that be known.
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I’ve got a buddy who’s rank 3 dotabuff Riki (I know what kind of monster) and like 5.5-6k who swears by tranqs every game but I don’t think he does 4pos often. I don’t think it’s that bad.
Prob worse on 4pos since you don’t get any farm priority and u are more dependent on phase for dmg
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I mean, for me it used to make sense before, on pos4, because hp regen and movement speed are amazing on what was essentially a vision hero.
But with the new ult, I think the solo kill potential trumps the utility, basically. Would not make tranqs anymore, but... as a farming core, maybe he feels like he will get farm anyway, so he still wants the hp regen + ms, for comfort.
Still weird tho, a core riki would lane a lot early, so you don't get the regen, and you have a +5 hp regen talent at 10. Not to mention the infamous battlefury build on pos1 rikis... (more regen). Meh, iono!
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I will take riki pos 1-3 safe or off, and I swear by it with getting diffusal by 7 min, Boots, cleave by 14-16 min, then basher. By this time, even with an enemy anti mage, I can hunt him and keep him down and then snowball into something that just can not be stopped with the low CD of tricks. I barely play him roam because I prefer pudge roam. Just my two cents. Many people do not like the cleave build anymore but the ability to Hit all in tricks essentially x1.5 and to clear waves so quick for that rat is just pure value.
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there's no way ur getting diffusal boots cleave by 14-16 min, the nerf killed riki but the new buff brought him back again imo +4 dmg +1 armor is really solid earlygame buff
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diffusel into cleave by 14-16 min is very much true if my lane is going well, boots are rounded off shortly after. so in that time not specifically boots but shortly after.
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well why would you skip phase boots and aquila earlygame that just cant be good
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poor mans boots I get. they do not need to be completed and Aquila is not required. You can do things differently in every game ya know.
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On June 22 2018 03:46 Hybrid Chaos wrote:
poor mans boots I get. they do not need to be completed and Aquila is not required. You can do things differently in every game ya know.
u wanna link a gameid?
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he cant link because these timings are overexaggerated
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also the build is way to greedy only works low level
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On June 22 2018 03:46 Hybrid Chaos wrote:
poor mans boots I get. they do not need to be completed and Aquila is not required. You can do things differently in every game ya know.
Also - there is no poormans, the item literally doesn't exist anymore 
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On July 03 2018 19:23 sCuMBaG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2018 03:46 Hybrid Chaos wrote:
poor mans boots I get. they do not need to be completed and Aquila is not required. You can do things differently in every game ya know. Also - there is no poormans, the item literally doesn't exist anymore
Jesus you're such a donk
He meant brown basic boots obviously :D
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On July 03 2018 05:56 FreakyDroid wrote:
In Turbo sure.
Ding we have a winner
I used to be a serious -apem grinder but never tried that one
Must be fun with 7minute diffusal
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Oh you'll have more items by 7min mark, at least 2 + boots. But the guy is saying you can have diffusial in normal game, which is not out of the realm of possibility but its highly unlikely to get that consistently.
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Rushed diffusal a few games and have had it by 7 to 8 min. granted I had a few hero kills with a really good sup and bad opposing player. Literally buy only tangos and off I go. depending on the support. It aint impossible at all. Its like my record for having cleave on PA is 12:47, again stars were aligned where I had a great lane supp and hero kills to go with the creep kills.
I do not care if you believe me or not.
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On July 03 2018 19:41 LemOn wrote:Ding we have a winner I used to be a serious -apem grinder but never tried that one Must be fun with 7minute diffusal
wasn't exactly that obvious.
and with kid's punctuation knowledge nowadays, you never know if he just missed a comma...
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Say a guy who doesn't capitalize ....
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On July 12 2018 21:39 Hybrid Chaos wrote:
Rushed diffusal a few games and have had it by 7 to 8 min. granted I had a few hero kills with a really good sup and bad opposing player. Literally buy only tangos and off I go. depending on the support. It aint impossible at all. Its like my record for having cleave on PA is 12:47, again stars were aligned where I had a great lane supp and hero kills to go with the creep kills.
I do not care if you believe me or not.
Sure but your opponents must be whatever is under legend for you to succed with this crap, good players will end the game under 15 min against a non player core.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/1/1d/Riki_smoke_screen.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/f/f1/Riki_blink_strike.png)
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