|
On July 10 2016 08:11 1 2 1 2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 06:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
I used to get Wand on Riki, but found myself six-slotted way too fast to get it.
Before Diffusal, I will have:
Tranq. Boots
Urn
OOV
Wind Lace
Magic Wand
TP
If I include Wards, there's no room for TP.
so Maxing Smoke is still the ideal choice because the larger radius and increased miss chance is so good early on? I mean, I figured that the AOE increase essentially increases the long the enemy is silenced (as they have more to traverse), but didn't think it was that amazing to make maxed first. Especially if the miss chance increase is negligible because the enemy's attack speed is so low already.
Assuming ordinary circumstances, you'd start with 2 sent tango oov (and 1 or 2 wards from pos 5 for you to place). Then it's time to try to acquire Boots, Stick, Raindrop, Wand while making sure courier is upgraded and wards/sentries are bought as needed. In an actual game where the enemy team knows how to play against pos 4 Riki and their draft is equipped to do so, even getting an urn is going to be a struggle. Personally, I wouldnt get the Wind Lace in most cases but obviously item progression is always situational and every choice has pros and cons. So you'd end up with TBoots, Urn, OoV, Wand, TP, Wards. Diffusal is such a luxury item that getting rid of OoV or Wand by that time isn't a reason not to get either in the first place. Also Smoke does not slow enemy attack speed and I dont think you understand the math given that you say the miss chance increase is negligible so let me break it down for you: Lets assume the enemy affected by Cloud attack 5 times in total (which to me seems like a reasonable number but I'll be happy to do other numbers too). lvl 1 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 1 %, chance to hit 1 time = 8 %, chance to hit 2 times = 23 %, chance to hit 3 times = 35 %, chance to hit 4 times = 26 %, chance to hit 5 times = 8 % avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~3.0 (66 % EHP increase) lvl 4 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 17 %, chance to hit 1 time = 36 %, chance to hit 2 times = 30 %, chance to hit 3 times = 13 %, chance to hit 4 times = 3 %, chance to hit 5 times = 0.243 % (1 out of 412) avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~1.5 (333 % EHP increase) In other words (and slightly simplified) if an enemy has to deal 1000 dmg to kill you, with lvl 1 Cloud, they need the equivalent of 1666 dmg to kill you and with lvl 4 Cloud, they need 3333 dmg to kill you. 1666 - 3333 Negligible? :DDDDD
So I guess CnD's 3-second delay is simply not worthwhile in comparison. Six seconds for the enemy to hit Riki for 1,6666 damage is a better insurance than CnD maxed and the 3-second delay (because if they have wards, that shorter amount of time won't matter).
Any reason players max CnD? Is just a more greedier/confident style because they know they can get away with it?
|
On July 10 2016 08:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 08:11 1 2 1 2 wrote:On July 10 2016 06:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
I used to get Wand on Riki, but found myself six-slotted way too fast to get it.
Before Diffusal, I will have:
Tranq. Boots
Urn
OOV
Wind Lace
Magic Wand
TP
If I include Wards, there's no room for TP.
so Maxing Smoke is still the ideal choice because the larger radius and increased miss chance is so good early on? I mean, I figured that the AOE increase essentially increases the long the enemy is silenced (as they have more to traverse), but didn't think it was that amazing to make maxed first. Especially if the miss chance increase is negligible because the enemy's attack speed is so low already.
Assuming ordinary circumstances, you'd start with 2 sent tango oov (and 1 or 2 wards from pos 5 for you to place). Then it's time to try to acquire Boots, Stick, Raindrop, Wand while making sure courier is upgraded and wards/sentries are bought as needed. In an actual game where the enemy team knows how to play against pos 4 Riki and their draft is equipped to do so, even getting an urn is going to be a struggle. Personally, I wouldnt get the Wind Lace in most cases but obviously item progression is always situational and every choice has pros and cons. So you'd end up with TBoots, Urn, OoV, Wand, TP, Wards. Diffusal is such a luxury item that getting rid of OoV or Wand by that time isn't a reason not to get either in the first place. Also Smoke does not slow enemy attack speed and I dont think you understand the math given that you say the miss chance increase is negligible so let me break it down for you: Lets assume the enemy affected by Cloud attack 5 times in total (which to me seems like a reasonable number but I'll be happy to do other numbers too). lvl 1 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 1 %, chance to hit 1 time = 8 %, chance to hit 2 times = 23 %, chance to hit 3 times = 35 %, chance to hit 4 times = 26 %, chance to hit 5 times = 8 % avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~3.0 (66 % EHP increase) lvl 4 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 17 %, chance to hit 1 time = 36 %, chance to hit 2 times = 30 %, chance to hit 3 times = 13 %, chance to hit 4 times = 3 %, chance to hit 5 times = 0.243 % (1 out of 412) avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~1.5 (333 % EHP increase) In other words (and slightly simplified) if an enemy has to deal 1000 dmg to kill you, with lvl 1 Cloud, they need the equivalent of 1666 dmg to kill you and with lvl 4 Cloud, they need 3333 dmg to kill you. 1666 - 3333 Negligible? :DDDDD So I guess CnD's 3-second delay is simply not worthwhile in comparison. Six seconds for the enemy to hit Riki for 1,6666 damage is a better insurance than CnD maxed and the 3-second delay (because if they have wards, that shorter amount of time won't matter). Any reason players max CnD? Is just a more greedier/confident style because they know they can get away with it?
3-second delay is pretty useless whether you're a support or core Riki. If you're playing core Riki (to taunt an inferior team or whatever) I'd imagine 1-4-4 would be the skill build of choice because of the dmg. As a support Riki your damage is pretty insignicant whether you or not you max E. What support Riki offers is good early harass (lvl 1 CnD + OoV is pretty damn strong early on in the game), scouting intel through deep wards, enemy team's supports being poor due to buying detection and not being able to pull/stack freely while your offlaner is iron taloning it up & then there's Cloud an amazing ability. Honestly I cant think of a single competitive game with Riki where I thought to myself hey this game Riki should consider something else than 4-4-1. As for the ultimate lategame luxury support Riki item, Diffusal is amazing but by the time you reach this stage, you'd probably be higher lvl than 11 anyway.
Like I remember back in wc3 dota some of the competitve pinoy teams were fond of core riki for a time. Usually paired with Wisp for the steroids. With Overcharge and max E Riki is capable of dealing ridiculous dmg for that time in the game if you have a way to lock people down.
|
Just feels like no one is going max Smoke these days nor Infused Raindrop but I am seeing a lot of Wind Lace and max CnD.
I'm going to play more Riki. I tried a few games with max CnD and overall, feels like I don't do much damage at all anyways, but I also noticed that some lanes are just not gankable because my allies don't have the reliable damage yet.
|
Think the main reason to max CnD over SS is that ss disable doesn't scale well at all. Without other slows SS adds roughly 0.1 seconds slow&silence per level on an average target. So unless your target actually stays in ss and fights, levels in ss do very little.
CnD max on the other hand is still 35 dmg more at lvl 7 and half the fade time. Then again with the hero being as exp starved as he usually is on pos 5, I don't think it matters either way unless you are snowballing like crazy, in which case CnD is a lot better
So yeah tldr is that it probably doesn't matter at all how you skill after 1:1:1 if you play sup riki.
|
On July 10 2016 10:58 Blackfeather wrote:
Think the main reason to max CnD over SS is that ss disable doesn't scale well at all. Without other slows SS adds roughly 0.1 seconds slow&silence per level on an average target. So unless your target actually stays in ss and fights, levels in ss do very little.
CnD max on the other hand is still 35 dmg more at lvl 7 and half the fade time. Then again with the hero being as exp starved as he usually is on pos 5, I don't think it matters either way unless you are snowballing like crazy, in which case CnD is a lot better
So yeah tldr is that it probably doesn't matter at all how you skill after 1:1:1 if you play sup riki.
Yes, this was my point-of-view as well. Most of the time, my opponent does not stay in the smoke; so the larger radius is kind of wasted overall until I have diffusal or a slow/stun to help out (beyond OOV).
|
CnD over Blink strike is pretty much dependant on how aggressive you want to be. With CnD maxed first you will output abit more damage in early fights, while if you max Blink Strike you can go yolo dive towers at lvl 7 and stuff like that while still being fairly safe. I prefer Blink strike first cause it allows for more flexibility and CnD doesn't really provide that much added damage early on. Besides, one thing to keep in mind is that in your early ganks around the lanes, you shouldn't really be the one expected to deal alot of damage, it should be whoever is standing on the lane you are ganking.
|
Well, if you're playing against people who don't know what Sentries do and who don't play coordinated against Riki, obviously, CnD becomes more and more attractive. On the other hand, if you're playing against people who have a clue, 69 % bigger AoE to your disruptive counter-initiation zoning ability becomes more attractive.
|
if you think of it as a greatly balanced skill (which it probably is in fairness), it's a 69% increase.
otherwise, it strictly makes the aoe ~100 units larger. that is truesight detection range from towers, minus attack range. it's very little. in the best case, you're place it in front of a hero retreat path that they will run through, which would make it an even bigger increase.
poor placement or just faster characters makes that increase in aoe size completely negligible and that happens more often than not.
same sort of thing happens in pubs, you'll more likely get overleveled, so you get to add an extra level in cloak and dagger/smoke much earlier than you should be able to, so your earlier skillbuild matters less.
|
Please share thoughts on pos 4 riki with 1/2 dragon lance.
Pro's : easier build-up, grants about 20 strength much needed for riki
con's : no mana break hence less damage, no purge
I am thinking something like 2 dragon lance into basher, maelstorm or 1 dragon lance into diffusal, basher and other core items.
|
Depends on the game you have. Imo it's never ideal to get a second.
It's damage wise straight inferior to diffu, even for cost and that is disregarding that the purge is amazing for smoke cloud and ultimate.
If you want to bulk up you can still go dragon lance basher and get the same strength buildup, just with the added utility of basher once you finish your second item.
Imo 1 DL is okay as a first 2k gold investment, but you might as well just get the basher to tank up or build a drums to be more useful in teamfights.
|
On April 30 2018 09:16 Archeon wrote:
Depends on the game you have. Imo it's never ideal to get a second.
It's damage wise straight inferior to diffu, even for cost and that is disregarding that the purge is amazing for smoke cloud and ultimate.
If you want to bulk up you can still go dragon lance basher and get the same strength buildup, just with the added utility of basher once you finish your second item.
Imo 1 DL is okay as a first 2k gold investment, but you might as well just get the basher to tank up or build a drums to be more useful in teamfights.
Hmmm... Makes sense. So with DL it can be like DL, BASHER, MAELSTORM n riki is pretty good. I missed the part that DL n basher give the same tankiness. Ty for pointing it out.
|
On April 30 2018 08:15 arghyad1 wrote:
Please share thoughts on pos 4 riki with 1/2 dragon lance.
Pro's : easier build-up, grants about 20 strength much needed for riki
con's : no mana break hence less damage, no purge
I am thinking something like 2 dragon lance into basher, maelstorm or 1 dragon lance into diffusal, basher and other core items.
It's terrible. You don't get a lot of money unless you are getting kills, and DL doesnt give you anywhere near the solo or 2 man kill potential of a diffusal.
Strength is a wasted stat since you should rarely be caught out and have positional advantage via invis.
|
On April 30 2018 11:38 Baggage wrote:
It's terrible.
+1
I used to play quite a bit of riki even before the recent series of patch and by then the most efficient lowcost strat - as in you're really getting nothing - was to stack aquilas. As a roaming riki, I would always get tranquils, aquila(s), and WARDS. Then, maybe, diffu then basher, if the game was going my way.
This has changed, for 3 reasons I'd say :
1°) Right now the new and improved riki has insane solo kill potential with his ultimate. Even with low farm.
2°) Bounty runes give more gold than ever.
3°) And, few weeks after those changes, people are more used to see/suffer from what a roaming riki can do - meaning they're more willing to let you reach that stage (almost nobody will freak out if you don't buy wards/take some time to farm/ks, etc).
The first change make diffusal blade a must have, as a first big item. It enhances/unlocks your solo skill potential (depending on the time you get it). Besides, it gives you the invis slow utility which is always good to have, and has amazing synergy with your cloud. It is much more potent than what dragon lances would ever give you, especially because the STR is rather wasted on riki - if you feel like you need the STR at this stage, you're doing it wrong.
The 2 other changes allows you to actually get it, in a timely manner. The sooner the better.
Basher is still good but as a 2nd big item. The utility it provides is very good but unreliable, the build-up is not as nice as diffu (no synergy with your bs + that 1.150 recipe  ), and I'd argue that 10 INT (diffu) are more useful than 10 STR (basher), early.
For me, "the" current build is : phase / aquila / (dust) / (raindrops) / diffu / basher
And get the +5 hp regen talent, it is good.
|
On April 30 2018 15:05 Murlox wrote:+1 I used to play quite a bit of riki even before the recent series of patch and by then the most efficient lowcost strat - as in you're really getting nothing - was to stack aquilas. As a roaming riki, I would always get tranquils, aquila(s), and WARDS. Then, maybe, diffu then basher, if the game was going my way. This has changed, for 3 reasons I'd say : 1°) Right now the new and improved riki has insane solo kill potential with his ultimate. Even with low farm. 2°) Bounty runes give more gold than ever. 3°) And, few weeks after those changes, people are more used to see/suffer from what a roaming riki can do - meaning they're more willing to let you reach that stage (almost nobody will freak out if you don't buy wards/take some time to farm/ks, etc). The first change make diffusal blade a must have, as a first big item. It enhances/unlocks your solo skill potential (depending on the time you get it). Besides, it gives you the invis slow utility which is always good to have, and has amazing synergy with your cloud. It is much more potent than what dragon lances would ever give you, especially because the STR is rather wasted on riki - if you feel like you need the STR at this stage, you're doing it wrong. The 2 other changes allows you to actually get it, in a timely manner. The sooner the better. Basher is still good but as a 2nd big item. The utility it provides is very good but unreliable, the build-up is not as nice as diffu (no synergy with your bs + that 1.150 recipe ), and I'd argue that 10 INT (diffu) are more useful than 10 STR (basher), early. For me, "the" current build is : phase / aquila / (dust) / (raindrops) / diffu / basherAnd get the +5 hp regen talent, it is good.
Noted and I agree this is better. But I just thought of DL for those games where i m like dying in my first 2-3 ganks without getting the kills or the xp. Sometimes it gets hard to get 1k gold for the blades whereas i can add 24 damage on bactstab by accumulating 450 gold on me twice and without using cour. But if I am the 1 farming the lane DL is pointless.
|
Yeah I get what you're saying, even still, for me it's nothing short of a waste.
Yes sometimes games don't go where you want to, for sure, but you're arguably making it worse by getting a DL instead of a diffu.
How to say... I don't think the +24 dmg on bs will ever be enough to justify not making a diffu first. Once you are at 450 gold for the band of elvenskin, you're basically 50% done with a blade of alacrity. So instead of buying a band, just... if anything, just go somewhere and farm your blade. People won't mind, they've all been destroyed by rikis enough, they know what farm does on this hero. Bounties give very good gold these times. You can KS with backstab (you can end your ult with that - this could require to level it a bit or not use it straight ahead).
For me, it's more of a "game sense / farming pattern" than anything, DL is simply not an option. Rather, not a good one.
ps : you could see it that way. It is your duty, and beneficial to your 4 teammates MMR, that you do get a diffu, asap.
|
as a core player, i would rather give up a free lane and push, look for fights, or jungle so my riki can get the diffu at a reasonable timing. in most games its usually like 5-7 mins of farming needed, which isn't too bad. If i saw DL on his quickbuy i would tell him to take lane and farm diffu.
I can see the argument for basher first sometimes but yeah, diffu is too game changing for him.
|
Conceptually, don't try solve with items what you can solve with positioning and play. If you feel more comfortable with a tankier build, I'd be more inclined to go double bracer into very-eventual atos, because that at least synergises with what you do.
It'd still be awful though, because its still a ton of money on stats you don't need and doesn't help against the items people would build against you anyways.
Aquila/wand/raindrops should keep you alive. If that's not enough, watch how other people play the hero and see how they stay alive.
|
I used to swear by basher, but diffusal is just better as first item. I think for a non core riki, gold is a scarcity and you really want an item that do something rather than just give stats. Diffusal gives you the lockdown needed together with smokescreen before the force staff/ghost/eul/bkb etc comes into play.
|
I used to swear by echo saber... but that was many patches ago and I always ended playing more of a (pub) pos5 than anything else. Invis warding is the shit. The item is pretty decent though - mana regen was an issue, you get a nice slow, some hp... build up was nice.
But yeah, even back then I don't think it was better than a diffu, and given today's situation, there's no question.
|
my build guide for riki at 6k mmr is get sentry lvl 1 to counter enemy sentries,
phase, stick, aquila, (double aquila if low farm), diffusal into basher into aghs.
talents:
5hp reg
smoke talent
blink strike
aoe
dont try to farm to much if pos 4, try to scout enemy movement or setup kills with vision, when you hit 6 you can consider placing courier kill wards that you kill with ulti.
Around 13+ time into game you should start farming empty sidelines to speed up diffusal. A normal timing would be 17-21 min diffusal.
I belivie this is the obvious way to build/play riki, murlox said tranq but i cant see how thats better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
