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I am really having trouble with nailing how to play roaming Riki.
Is he good in every line-up or situationally?
Is he someone that goes in early on fights or one of the last ones?
I also don't understand what to build before Diffusal Blade. There's so many choices that all seem ideal:
1. Tranquil or Phase Boots
2. Urn of Shadows or Drum of Endurance
3. Echo Sabre? Ring of Aquila? PMS?
They all seem really good and yet, I can't pinpoint of useful they will be.
I know the skill build right now is mostly max E then Blink then Smoke, is that because of the increased Smoke mana cost?
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When you max your best skill last you are going to have problems
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Okay ignoring the pub matches since I can't be assed to look at those the only top teams that max CnD over smoke first are vgr and fnatic and they still max smoke 2nd so I don't know where you are getting this max e into w into q last
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Roaming Riki is best in compositions that prefer fighting over farming and with low CD/high burst abilities or Naix. He's also very good against lineups with greedy junglers/cores.
In terms of fights, you're main job is to provide vision (allowing your team to find a key target and blow them up) and disrupt enemy movement with smokescreen. You want to go in early and help get a good initiation --> tricks of the trade --> more smokescreens. You only come out of stealth at the end of fights when chasing down heroes or w.e Your actual teamfight damage output is negligible.
1. Tranquil vs Phase: Both are fine, I get phase if it's super early and I'm doing quite well. Tranquils for games where I'm having an average time.
2. Urn of Shadows is amazing and I consider it absolutely core. You can use urn to disable blinks and in general be a huge pest. I think Drums is negligble considering how little damage support/utility riki does.
3. In higher level games your cores are all gonna be more efficient and able to utilize available farm, Infused Raindrop is the mana item for a roaming riki.
At higher level games I feel it's very hard to transition from a support/roaming into a hard carry because you ideally dont want to be farming lanes or appearing on the map. Riki excels at giving his team vision (via very deep wards) and denying it from the enemy. Consequently, your cores can farm in much greedier positions.
I think Smoke Screen first is the build at higher levels of play, but WE max is viable if you are doing really really really well and would like to transition. I think blink dagger is also pretty good, but it all kinda depends on what your team needs and how well you're doing.
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On July 09 2016 15:54 Thetwinmasters wrote:
Okay ignoring the pub matches since I can't be assed to look at those the only top teams that max CnD over smoke first are vgr and fnatic and they still max smoke 2nd so I don't know where you are getting this max e into w into q last
I still don't understand why Smoke is to be maxed first? You didn't explain anything, you just keep stating what I already looked up.
OG maxed CnD then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2448310164
Col maxed CnD then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2466075858
Fnatic maxed Cnd then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2466903757
Alliance maxed Smoke then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2467484798
iG maxed CnD then Blink: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2467763435
iG and Col did it twice also (not listed). I understand Smoke maxed at the mid-game due to engagements, but there are still some players who max Blink.
So what you're saying is not accurate or even explained and that's just pro matches, not even pub. games (the games I'm learning and playing Riki with)
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On July 09 2016 15:54 Baggage wrote:
Roaming Riki is best in compositions that prefer fighting over farming and with low CD/high burst abilities or Naix. He's also very good against lineups with greedy junglers/cores.
In terms of fights, you're main job is to provide vision (allowing your team to find a key target and blow them up) and disrupt enemy movement with smokescreen. You want to go in early and help get a good initiation --> tricks of the trade --> more smokescreens. You only come out of stealth at the end of fights when chasing down heroes or w.e Your actual teamfight damage output is negligible.
1. Tranquil vs Phase: Both are fine, I get phase if it's super early and I'm doing quite well. Tranquils for games where I'm having an average time.
2. Urn of Shadows is amazing and I consider it absolutely core. You can use urn to disable blinks and in general be a huge pest. I think Drums is negligble considering how little damage support/utility riki does.
3. In higher level games your cores are all gonna be more efficient and able to utilize available farm, Infused Raindrop is the mana item for a roaming riki.
At higher level games I feel it's very hard to transition from a support/roaming into a hard carry because you ideally dont want to be farming lanes or appearing on the map. Riki excels at giving his team vision (via very deep wards) and denying it from the enemy. Consequently, your cores can farm in much greedier positions.
I think Smoke Screen first is the build at higher levels of play, but WE max is viable if you are doing really really really well and would like to transition. I think blink dagger is also pretty good, but it all kinda depends on what your team needs and how well you're doing.
I think Blink Dagger is to help with escapes also (Ult -> Blink Away).
This helps a lot. My fear with max Smoke is the mana cost as when I maxed W/E, I still had a lot of trouble having enough mana if a fight goes long.
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Ah, that explains a bit. Thanks!
So I can understand maxing Smoke second, but why first over CnD then? Wouldn't the first level be enough during the laning phase and max out CnD first then Smoke?
Mana Cost, Cooldown, Duration, Slow are all static regardless of the level.
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Larger AoE. Substantially larger miss %. Better zoning in fights. Smoke Screen has strong applications both defensively/offensively.
Edit: One other overlooked factor that I've also only just considered is difficulty exp gains. If the game is slow tempo, you aren't going to get that many kills and gold/exp. So how you spend your early points is absolutely critical. I am of the belief that at higher MMR's it's much much harder to spiral out of control, so you want your most flexible/disruptive/versatile skill max'd out sooner rather than later. I think with a really really really good start (and a 2nd support being ward bitch) with like fb, 3 kills 0 deaths at 8 mins CnD max would be great, but it feels really situational to me.
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Real question is not what items to get in which situations or in which order to prioritize abilities in which situations. Real question is how do Riki-pickers sleep at night xD
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Rant aside, lemme weight in my 2 cent.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2016 14:08 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am really having trouble with nailing how to play roaming Riki.
Is he good in every line-up or situationally?
Is he someone that goes in early on fights or one of the last ones?
I also don't understand what to build before Diffusal Blade. There's so many choices that all seem ideal:
1. Tranquil or Phase Boots
2. Urn of Shadows or Drum of Endurance
3. Echo Sabre? Ring of Aquila? PMS?
They all seem really good and yet, I can't pinpoint of useful they will be.
I know the skill build right now is mostly max E then Blink then Smoke, is that because of the increased Smoke mana cost?
As a pos 4 support Riki, there are so many things that come into play when deciding which items to acquire and in which order. How much does the pos 5 benefit from boots? How many wards sentries will Riki have to buy? Etc.
Generally speaking, though, if for some reason you're doing really well early on, Phase boots are amazing, but they are luxury so often times Tranquil seems like the obvious go-to pick up. Wand, Urn seem like reasonable item progression. Drum sounds crazy luxury. When to get Echo Sabre? Never xD. If the game goes in such a direction that the scouting and disruptive initiation of pos 4 riki just doesnt cut it and your lineup is desperately lacking damage and you deem it wise to try to transition into more of a damage dealer, maybe you could get Ring of Aquila before your Diffusal.
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Mana Cost, Cooldown, Duration, Slow are all static regardless of the level.
Radius goes from 250 to 325 - in other words for math-illiterate people the AoE increases by 69 percent.
Miss chance goes from 40 percent to 70 percent - in other words EHP increase against attacks from people who do not have true sight goes from 67 percent to 333 percent.¹
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But invisibility = invincibility
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On July 09 2016 20:26 1 2 1 2 wrote:Radius goes from 250 to 325 - in other words for math-illiterate people the AoE increases by 69 percent. Miss chance goes from 40 percent to 70 percent - in other words EHP increase against attacks from people who do not have true sight goes from 67 percent to 333 percent.¹
The larger area is also incredibly useful for blocking off enemy heroes trying to escape in my mind. if you throw it in their path of retreat enemy heroes either have to walk the direct path of 325*2 at a 25% move slow or take a longer route around. Also at level 4 smoke screen covers basically the entire middle ramp from side to side.
CnD on the other hand scales directly with agility which a roaming support riki won't have in abundance early on. At higher levels I feel like the fade time doesn't really matter all that much.
My overall preference is:
Very good game: Phase/Urn/Diffusal/Vlads/Basher
Ok or bad Game: Tranq/Urn/Diffusal
On top of that OOV, Raindrops & Wards are all helpful. I max smoke screen first no matter the game, if ahead the larger area is super helpful in keeping the enemy from coming back by winning big fights especially since they won't have BKBs yet. If behind max CnD won't do much with low levels and agility.
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If you're super tryhard, Gem + QB when you're team is ahead is also really good.
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On July 09 2016 21:35 HopLight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 20:26 1 2 1 2 wrote:Mana Cost, Cooldown, Duration, Slow are all static regardless of the level. Radius goes from 250 to 325 - in other words for math-illiterate people the AoE increases by 69 percent. Miss chance goes from 40 percent to 70 percent - in other words EHP increase against attacks from people who do not have true sight goes from 67 percent to 333 percent.¹ The larger area is also incredibly useful for blocking off enemy heroes trying to escape in my mind. if you throw it in their path of retreat enemy heroes either have to walk the direct path of 325*2 at a 25% move slow or take a longer route around. Also at level 4 smoke screen covers basically the entire middle ramp from side to side. CnD on the other hand scales directly with agility which a roaming support riki won't have in abundance early on. At higher levels I feel like the fade time doesn't really matter all that much. My overall preference is: Very good game: Phase/Urn/Diffusal/Vlads/Basher Ok or bad Game: Tranq/Urn/Diffusal On top of that OOV, Raindrops & Wards are all helpful. I max smoke screen first no matter the game, if ahead the larger area is super helpful in keeping the enemy from coming back by winning big fights especially since they won't have BKBs yet. If behind max CnD won't do much with low levels and agility.
What you wrote is very reasonable. Wand deserves mentioning, though. Particularly in games where the enemy team hasnt fed you for 322 reasons.
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I used to get Wand on Riki, but found myself six-slotted way too fast to get it.
Before Diffusal, I will have:
Tranq. Boots
Urn
OOV
Wind Lace
Magic Wand
TP
If I include Wards, there's no room for TP.
so Maxing Smoke is still the ideal choice because the larger radius and increased miss chance is so good early on? I mean, I figured that the AOE increase essentially increases the long the enemy is silenced (as they have more to traverse), but didn't think it was that amazing to make maxed first. Especially if the miss chance increase is negligible because the enemy's attack speed is so low already.
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On July 10 2016 06:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
I used to get Wand on Riki, but found myself six-slotted way too fast to get it.
Before Diffusal, I will have:
Tranq. Boots
Urn
OOV
Wind Lace
Magic Wand
TP
If I include Wards, there's no room for TP.
so Maxing Smoke is still the ideal choice because the larger radius and increased miss chance is so good early on? I mean, I figured that the AOE increase essentially increases the long the enemy is silenced (as they have more to traverse), but didn't think it was that amazing to make maxed first. Especially if the miss chance increase is negligible because the enemy's attack speed is so low already.
Assuming ordinary circumstances, you'd start with 2 sent tango oov (and 1 or 2 wards from pos 5 for you to place). Then it's time to try to acquire Boots, Stick, Raindrop, Wand while making sure courier is upgraded and wards/sentries are bought as needed. In an actual game where the enemy team knows how to play against pos 4 Riki and their draft is equipped to do so, even getting an urn is going to be a struggle. Personally, I wouldnt get the Wind Lace in most cases but obviously item progression is always situational and every choice has pros and cons.
So you'd end up with TBoots, Urn, OoV, Wand, TP, Wards. Diffusal is such a luxury item that getting rid of OoV or Wand by that time isn't a reason not to get either in the first place.
Also Smoke does not slow enemy attack speed and I dont think you understand the math given that you say the miss chance increase is negligible so let me break it down for you:
Lets assume the enemy affected by Cloud attack 5 times in total (which to me seems like a reasonable number but I'll be happy to do other numbers too).
lvl 1 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 1 %, chance to hit 1 time = 8 %, chance to hit 2 times = 23 %, chance to hit 3 times = 35 %, chance to hit 4 times = 26 %, chance to hit 5 times = 8 %
avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~3.0 (66 % EHP increase)
lvl 4 Smoke: chance to hit 0 times = 17 %, chance to hit 1 time = 36 %, chance to hit 2 times = 30 %, chance to hit 3 times = 13 %, chance to hit 4 times = 3 %, chance to hit 5 times = 0.243 % (1 out of 412)
avg number of hits per 5 attacks = ~1.5 (333 % EHP increase)
In other words (and slightly simplified) if an enemy has to deal 1000 dmg to kill you, with lvl 1 Cloud, they need the equivalent of 1666 dmg to kill you and with lvl 4 Cloud, they need 3333 dmg to kill you.
1666 - 3333
Negligible? :DDDDD
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EPT
