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On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again?
1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control.
2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together.
3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much?
4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right?
You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked.
I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons.
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@superstartran
That was the worst attitude of replying someone even though previous post was fairly aggressive. You said the opposite but you put your MMR to the table and lost too much credibility already. 5.5K MMR doesn't make your arguments stronger.
Also bad end game =/= drums in my book. People even buy phase/RoA/blink on him in pro matches. Drum is not needed as much as you stated.
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We really need to get to the bottom of this issue. On scale from 1 to 10, how core is drums? A 6? Maybe a 7? Or would somebody even be as crazy as considering it an 8? Stay tuned as we find out.
On another note, how does being 5.5k loses someone credibility? O.o If anything it should be the opposite...
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On November 04 2014 17:49 Laserist wrote:
@superstartran
That was the worst attitude of replying someone even though previous post was fairly aggressive. You said the opposite but you put your MMR to the table and lost too much credibility already. 5.5K MMR doesn't make your arguments stronger.
Also bad end game =/= drums in my book. People even buy phase/RoA/blink on him in pro matches. Drum is not needed as much as you stated.
When you have two high level players who have varying opinions (and Beesa is a phenomenally much better player than me, I just abuse fotm heroes) say that Drums is a very good item on Troll, it's a pretty good item on him, especially when almost every top level Troll player ranging from top pros to pubstars all get it on him on a consistent basis. There's very few instances where you would get any other item on him.
Where the fuck are you gonna get your mana then if you don't get Drums? Good luck sustaining the costs of Troll's shitty ass mana pool. Any other major midgame item you get on him doesn't help his mana pool. BKB, S&Y, Blink, Lothars, etc. none of them help his mana pool in the slightest. And no, bottle nor wand are enough because Troll unlike another bracer/drum user like Kunkka uses his spells all the time due to the fact that his ult is global and has a low CD. You can sort of manage your mana as someone like Kunkka or Sven without the Drums, as Troll it's pretty unbearable.
Drums gives you literally every single stat you could ask for for 1 slot. It is by far not the most gold efficient item, but the efficiency of the item isn't really that important when you need slot efficiency more than gold efficiency, since Troll is a tempo snowball type of hero. He should be rolling in the money from winning early game fights, pushing towers, and winning his lane handily.
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Top trollplayers on dotabuff nowadays build less cheap statitems then they used too. Its true, everyone can look it up. But, i can tell you that papers core itembuild works reallly well and is based on games from top trollplayers that do build drums.
Pure damage items and rushing a bkb is less forgiving when you make slight mistakes and i think that could be a good answer. If your not a toptier player itemising greedy can be costly.
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On November 04 2014 21:25 govie wrote:
Top trollplayers on dotabuff nowadays build less cheap statitems then they used too. Its true, everyone can look it up. But, i can tell you that papers core itembuild works reallly well and is based on games from top trollplayers that do build drums.
Pure damage items and rushing a bkb is less forgiving when you make slight mistakes and i think that could be a good answer. If your not a toptier player itemising greedy can be costly.
Top 2 troll players in dotabuff(shredder & Noctis) didn't built any drum in last 2 pages of games. Phase, Vlads(or HoTD), S&Y, BKB all day long.
Just saying.
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On November 04 2014 21:54 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 21:25 govie wrote:
Top trollplayers on dotabuff nowadays build less cheap statitems then they used too. Its true, everyone can look it up. But, i can tell you that papers core itembuild works reallly well and is based on games from top trollplayers that do build drums.
Pure damage items and rushing a bkb is less forgiving when you make slight mistakes and i think that could be a good answer. If your not a toptier player itemising greedy can be costly. Top 2 troll players in dotabuff(shredder & Noctis) didn't built any drum in last 2 pages of games. Phase, Vlads(or HoTD), S&Y, BKB all day long. Just saying.
They both came in the top 2 just last week and they even skip S&Y alot. Before that beesa was the man for a very very long time. Im quite sure that if people itemise as greedy as these two do, trolls winrate will drop considerably, it takes skill to execute a melee troll with only 2 grams of EHP.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On November 04 2014 16:04 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? 1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control. 2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together. 3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much? 4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right? You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked. I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons.
1) Thank god in my trench tier everytime i see a troll he ends up laning against viper/razor with roaming bane-potm/*insert another pretty-good-ganking duo in trenchtier*. Yeah, good luck smashing that sort of lane.
2) Every single stat you can possibly think of except of stat called: useful. Yeah, obviously 20 passive ms with active giving another 40 on top is pretty damn good (Except the part where you don't need to waste 1.8k gold yourself to get it). But +9 int +9 str and +9 agi (lol, that's actually terrible low amount of it, when you consider that your midgame consists of axes and some more axes) is at most situational when there is like obvious source of better HP/mp pool item.
3) Like point booster. Like random item that has both better perspectives (ask FATA's item build, even tho using pros item builds is really bad argument) and is more cost efficient considering your right clicks at this point are completely RoA-phase defined(that's a fuckton of damage tbh). Getting yasha on top of phase easily gives you 504 with phase, 440 without. Considering ranged slow you can have by shortly cutting your ms by ~55-65, your only kiting problem will arise when opponent has stuns or viper level of slows, aka drum would be useless anyways.
4) Yes, also, naked yasha gives you more dps when drum active, if you ever did the math on the subject before throwing around random bs.
And yes, i am just noob that just applied logic and got confused on how the fuck a hero with built-in bash, best attack speed steroid in the game by real far (ult if you got confused) and insane base MS (about as fast/faster than lvl3 grow tiny with same items) + ranged mode has problems in lategame as long as he is not the sole core against whatever ultra-hard-carry you want to throw in.
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Not trying to argue or anything (I have no opinion - just trying to learn) but the first link has 3 games with drums on the first page alone. That said, he ends up losing all 3 games. The second guy also has a few on the first page as well.
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Whatever you want i guess. I stated drums and even S&Y is build less nowadays and suddenly you are agruing that thats true....
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United States47024 Posts
Welp. that spun out of control fast.
On November 04 2014 02:48 Laserist wrote:
Phase+Bracer+RoA means 3 slots and if you add wand and tp , yes, you become slot short. But I don't believe in drums anymore like I used to. Every time I buy a recipe, I thought I can build a more useful thing with that precious early gold.
I put bracer there for those who like the early cheap hp buildup. I rather rely on armor(troll is pure armor in melee) and RoA depending on the opponent picks. Phase/RoA/Wand is my go-to build and will give you slot efficiency and hp problems can be alleviated by club into bkb. The build also has a very solid build-up with very cheap components, ramp up very fast.
Current meta relies less early fighting rather farm into some early skirmishes so I believe the build is enough for that. I generally think 875 + 4 creeps = ogre axe > drum recipe.
I am not trying to produce counter arguments to your build, drum is solid on its own. Just try to argue an alternative, smoother build to better item transition.
My original post wasn't to try and affirm the value of Drums, only to clarify what you're getting and how to view the item. I see a lot of "the recipe isn't good enough". The recipe for Drums is fine. You get comparable self-stats to a Wraith Band, minor team benefit+active at the cost of 875 gold and no item slots. That's *good*. That's not what makes Drums bad in the times you don't want it.
The limiting factor, as I mentioned, is actually the Robe of the Magi, and whether the hero wants to make that investment into their mana (and if they have alternatives that they'd be willing to commit to). The Robe is, and always has been, Drums' weakest component, it's just that the recipe and Bracer used to be strong enough items that you could largely ignore the inefficiency of the Robe because they made up for it. Evaluated purely on it's own value, the recipe is fine. It's not ridiculous enough to carry the Robe even on heroes that don't really want it anymore, but the recipe is still strong for its cost.
For Troll, he doesn't outright need Drums' mana every time. Whether he does depends on what other items he's gotten (e.g. a mid Troll with Bottle has less need for the mana), and what else he plans on getting (e.g. Beesa's Drums+Lothar's games).
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It depends on how you play Troll. If you are going dual offensive lane, drums is nice because you can pick up a bracer and a RoA and have really solid stats (especially if you are already ahead in lane with a kill or two or 5), and can continue that solid build up of superior stats wiht a drums. Also, if you are going dual offensive lane, chances are you will be team fighting their safe lane at some point early (around 10 mins), and being able to pop a drums charge when you are ahead can really turn the tide of a fight, or stop a few extra deaths from happening.
If you are going some kind of safelane or mid troll, then yes other items are fine, and you can afford to go greedier builds that have much more greedy build ups.
Half of the reason you go drums is for the aggressive build up it allows you and the aggressive tempo it is supposed to allow. Stop blindly following build orders and start UNDERSTANDING why an item is good.
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On November 04 2014 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 16:04 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? 1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control. 2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together. 3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much? 4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right? You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked. I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons. 1) Thank god in my trench tier everytime i see a troll he ends up laning against viper/razor with roaming bane-potm/*insert another pretty-good-ganking duo in trenchtier*. Yeah, good luck smashing that sort of lane. 2) Every single stat you can possibly think of except of stat called: useful. Yeah, obviously 20 passive ms with active giving another 40 on top is pretty damn good (Except the part where you don't need to waste 1.8k gold yourself to get it). But +9 int +9 str and +9 agi (lol, that's actually terrible low amount of it, when you consider that your midgame consists of axes and some more axes) is at most situational when there is like obvious source of better HP/mp pool item. 3) Like point booster. Like random item that has both better perspectives (ask FATA's item build, even tho using pros item builds is really bad argument) and is more cost efficient considering your right clicks at this point are completely RoA-phase defined(that's a fuckton of damage tbh). Getting yasha on top of phase easily gives you 504 with phase, 440 without. Considering ranged slow you can have by shortly cutting your ms by ~55-65, your only kiting problem will arise when opponent has stuns or viper level of slows, aka drum would be useless anyways. 4) Yes, also, naked yasha gives you more dps when drum active, if you ever did the math on the subject before throwing around random bs. And yes, i am just noob that just applied logic and got confused on how the fuck a hero with built-in bash, best attack speed steroid in the game by real far (ult if you got confused) and insane base MS (about as fast/faster than lvl3 grow tiny with same items) + ranged mode has problems in lategame as long as he is not the sole core against whatever ultra-hard-carry you want to throw in.
1) Strawman again. You're in trench tier, you should facing scrub Pudges not 6k players trying to make money by duo que stacking/smurfing and raising MMR on accounts.
2) Those stats for 1 item slot is extremely good, especially when you are trying to pressure and take towers early.
3) Good luck managing your mana with a Mek without mana. Fata's build only works when you have a team that can abuse the early Mek and Troll ult, otherwise it's not very good in pubs at all. Pointbooster is pretty shitty on a hero like Troll, it's good on a hero like Zeus who needs both Mana/HP extremely badly. Troll is more worried about MSPD so that people don't kite him for days.
4) Troll Warlord sucks dick late game compared to most true hard carries. He has no way to instantly move on the field, has no defensive scaling abilities, and has to be literally riding someone's dick the entire time to do damage. Stop theorycrafting DPS when his true effective DPS is way lower than someone like Spectre or TB late game.
Try again 3k trench tier.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On November 05 2014 21:34 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 04 2014 16:04 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? 1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control. 2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together. 3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much? 4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right? You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked. I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons. 1) Thank god in my trench tier everytime i see a troll he ends up laning against viper/razor with roaming bane-potm/*insert another pretty-good-ganking duo in trenchtier*. Yeah, good luck smashing that sort of lane. 2) Every single stat you can possibly think of except of stat called: useful. Yeah, obviously 20 passive ms with active giving another 40 on top is pretty damn good (Except the part where you don't need to waste 1.8k gold yourself to get it). But +9 int +9 str and +9 agi (lol, that's actually terrible low amount of it, when you consider that your midgame consists of axes and some more axes) is at most situational when there is like obvious source of better HP/mp pool item. 3) Like point booster. Like random item that has both better perspectives (ask FATA's item build, even tho using pros item builds is really bad argument) and is more cost efficient considering your right clicks at this point are completely RoA-phase defined(that's a fuckton of damage tbh). Getting yasha on top of phase easily gives you 504 with phase, 440 without. Considering ranged slow you can have by shortly cutting your ms by ~55-65, your only kiting problem will arise when opponent has stuns or viper level of slows, aka drum would be useless anyways. 4) Yes, also, naked yasha gives you more dps when drum active, if you ever did the math on the subject before throwing around random bs. And yes, i am just noob that just applied logic and got confused on how the fuck a hero with built-in bash, best attack speed steroid in the game by real far (ult if you got confused) and insane base MS (about as fast/faster than lvl3 grow tiny with same items) + ranged mode has problems in lategame as long as he is not the sole core against whatever ultra-hard-carry you want to throw in. 1) Strawman again. You're in trench tier, you should facing scrub Pudges not 6k players trying to make money by duo que stacking/smurfing and raising MMR on accounts. 2) Those stats for 1 item slot is extremely good, especially when you are trying to pressure and take towers early. 3) Good luck managing your mana with a Mek without mana. Fata's build only works when you have a team that can abuse the early Mek and Troll ult, otherwise it's not very good in pubs at all. Pointbooster is pretty shitty on a hero like Troll, it's good on a hero like Zeus who needs both Mana/HP extremely badly. Troll is more worried about MSPD so that people don't kite him for days. 4) Troll Warlord sucks dick late game compared to most true hard carries. He has no way to instantly move on the field, has no defensive scaling abilities, and has to be literally riding someone's dick the entire time to do damage. Stop theorycrafting DPS when his true effective DPS is way lower than someone like Spectre or TB late game. Try again 3k trench tier.
1) That's unranked trench tier. Ranked one is perfectly described by 2nd part of your sentence.
2) Won't argue with it, since that's not the question.
3) Fata's build after mek nerf is hotd-bkb-skadi, that's first and foremost. Next, when you are kited for days on a hero like trll with phase and yasha, MS is not your concern 90% of the time, lack of initiation, existence of stuns (reminder: you spent 900-1300 gold on delaying bkb as a tradeoff for minor stat boost and MS active) and force staves/ghosts. Drums only solve the part with force staves, except the part where drum on troll comes like whole 7-10 minutes before force on support. Preemptively solving problem is not solving it.
4) Troll Warlord is not 4p1 carry, you stating anything new, Also, he has no way to instantly move on the field, just like medusa, does not have to ride anyeone's dick to actually do fuckton of damage unlike aforementioned medusa. And no, i don't theorycraft dps, i theorycraft damage that hero with 10 second bkb (6th slot RFO after skadi, satanic, bkb, mkb, fuck what you think), 400+ MS and his ult can do.
Also, you are off by 1k on my trench tier measurement. I'll leave to you to flip the coin and guess on what side that 1k difference lies.
So in nutshell: Drum is situational at best item that is highly overrated after all the nerfs.
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What a silly flame war. At least stop quoting eachother and use @ or something God damn it's an eye sore.
Just watching this, laughing hard at the jungling Sandking being shut down by you and Earth Spirit/Kaolin.
That random gold flavor OoV seemed pretty good on top of your MS and slow. Would you ever get it if you didn't random and under what conditions?
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On November 06 2014 04:37 Surprise.820 wrote:What a silly flame war. At least stop quoting eachother and use @ or something God damn it's an eye sore. Just watching this, laughing hard at the jungling Sandking being shut down by you and Earth Spirit/Kaolin. That random gold flavor OoV seemed pretty good on top of your MS and slow. Would you ever get it if you didn't random and under what conditions?
if i ever feel like oov will help me get a kill at lvl 2-3 i will buy it from sideshop
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On November 06 2014 03:59 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 21:34 superstartran wrote:On November 04 2014 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 04 2014 16:04 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? 1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control. 2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together. 3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much? 4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right? You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked. I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons. 1) Thank god in my trench tier everytime i see a troll he ends up laning against viper/razor with roaming bane-potm/*insert another pretty-good-ganking duo in trenchtier*. Yeah, good luck smashing that sort of lane. 2) Every single stat you can possibly think of except of stat called: useful. Yeah, obviously 20 passive ms with active giving another 40 on top is pretty damn good (Except the part where you don't need to waste 1.8k gold yourself to get it). But +9 int +9 str and +9 agi (lol, that's actually terrible low amount of it, when you consider that your midgame consists of axes and some more axes) is at most situational when there is like obvious source of better HP/mp pool item. 3) Like point booster. Like random item that has both better perspectives (ask FATA's item build, even tho using pros item builds is really bad argument) and is more cost efficient considering your right clicks at this point are completely RoA-phase defined(that's a fuckton of damage tbh). Getting yasha on top of phase easily gives you 504 with phase, 440 without. Considering ranged slow you can have by shortly cutting your ms by ~55-65, your only kiting problem will arise when opponent has stuns or viper level of slows, aka drum would be useless anyways. 4) Yes, also, naked yasha gives you more dps when drum active, if you ever did the math on the subject before throwing around random bs. And yes, i am just noob that just applied logic and got confused on how the fuck a hero with built-in bash, best attack speed steroid in the game by real far (ult if you got confused) and insane base MS (about as fast/faster than lvl3 grow tiny with same items) + ranged mode has problems in lategame as long as he is not the sole core against whatever ultra-hard-carry you want to throw in. 1) Strawman again. You're in trench tier, you should facing scrub Pudges not 6k players trying to make money by duo que stacking/smurfing and raising MMR on accounts. 2) Those stats for 1 item slot is extremely good, especially when you are trying to pressure and take towers early. 3) Good luck managing your mana with a Mek without mana. Fata's build only works when you have a team that can abuse the early Mek and Troll ult, otherwise it's not very good in pubs at all. Pointbooster is pretty shitty on a hero like Troll, it's good on a hero like Zeus who needs both Mana/HP extremely badly. Troll is more worried about MSPD so that people don't kite him for days. 4) Troll Warlord sucks dick late game compared to most true hard carries. He has no way to instantly move on the field, has no defensive scaling abilities, and has to be literally riding someone's dick the entire time to do damage. Stop theorycrafting DPS when his true effective DPS is way lower than someone like Spectre or TB late game. Try again 3k trench tier. 1) That's unranked trench tier. Ranked one is perfectly described by 2nd part of your sentence. 2) Won't argue with it, since that's not the question. 3) Fata's build after mek nerf is hotd-bkb-skadi, that's first and foremost. Next, when you are kited for days on a hero like trll with phase and yasha, MS is not your concern 90% of the time, lack of initiation, existence of stuns (reminder: you spent 900-1300 gold on delaying bkb as a tradeoff for minor stat boost and MS active) and force staves/ghosts. Drums only solve the part with force staves, except the part where drum on troll comes like whole 7-10 minutes before force on support. Preemptively solving problem is not solving it. 4) Troll Warlord is not 4p1 carry, you stating anything new, Also, he has no way to instantly move on the field, just like medusa, does not have to ride anyeone's dick to actually do fuckton of damage unlike aforementioned medusa. And no, i don't theorycraft dps, i theorycraft damage that hero with 10 second bkb (6th slot RFO after skadi, satanic, bkb, mkb, fuck what you think), 400+ MS and his ult can do. Also, you are off by 1k on my trench tier measurement. I'll leave to you to flip the coin and guess on what side that 1k difference lies. So in nutshell: Drum is situational at best item that is highly overrated after all the nerfs.
Drums is a highly overrated item on heroes that don't need mana early on. Drums is not overrated on heroes like Sven, CK, Troll Warlord, etc. all who can use every single stat efficiently.
Troll still fucking blows as a late game carry because he can only do damage to one hero at a time, has no way of safely base sieging, and has no innate defensive abilities that are reliable late game.
Medusa late game is totally different from Troll Warlord late game, stop with this nonsense. Medusa is basically unkillable 6 slotted without blowing every single spell possible on her, that's clearly not the case with Troll Warlord. Not to mention Medusa is a legitimate ranged hero that can hit everything in an AoE, so though she doesn't do as much single target damage as Troll Warlord, overall she's doing much more effective damage in a teamfight.
Ok, so you're saying you're 2k now? Because that's clearly what it sounds like.
BTW, Fata hasn't played troll for like 2 months, and the last time he played him he went full defensive items with Manta/BKB.
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Fata did play more than 1 game of torll during the last 2 weeks and he did only go mek in 1 of them iirc.
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EPT
