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Introduction
I have been attempting to branch out with the heroes that I can play, especially learning how to play carries (as my preferred position is usually a position 4/5). One of the recent carries I have been trying to learn is Troll Warlord. While browsing through the builds, I noticed that all the builds recommend phase boots over power treads. Troll is not a particularly positioning based hero, so the only reason I could think of for building phase over treads was due to his innate abilities to increase attack speed – therefore phase must provide more damage per second. However, treads provide certain benefits that phase do not, such as extra health, mana or damage when you need it. I decided to investigate further the thought that phase provide more DPS than treads on Troll. Here are my findings.
Caveat – I am not a mathematician by trade and many of these numbers are rounded up or down. If the maths are completely incorrect, I apologise. If they are a little off, then this is probably due to rounding.
Legend
(aps) – Attacks per second
(dps) – Damage per second
Things to remember – Attack speed increases are increases in percentage. So an item that gives you 100 attack speed gives you 100% attack speed (doubling your attack speed).
Before Battle Trance
w/ Str. Treads and only Treads at lvl 16 – 1.248 (aps)
w/ Phase and only Phase at lvl 16 – 0.96 (aps)
Adjusted for fervour (which adds 34% attack speed at lvl 4 per stack) over 5 seconds – Remember 2 attacks are required in order to begin the stacks.
w/ Strength treads at lvl 16 – 0.96 base + Treads (30%) = 1.248 (aps), after 2 attacks (approx 1.6 seconds – 64%) – 1.574 (aps), after 3 attacks (at 2.1 seconds – 98%) – 1.9 (aps), after 4 attacks (approx 2.7 seconds – 132%) – 2.23 (aps), after 5 attacks (at 3.1 seconds – 168%)- 2.57 (aps)
The remainder of the 5 seconds will be filled by about 5 more attacks at 2.57 (aps) – approx an attack every 0.4 seconds. So we’ll take an average attack speed across the 5 seconds according to the number of attacks.
With some rounding, that’s 1.25+1.25+1.57+1.9+2.23+(6x2.57) / 11 = average of 2.14 (aps)
At 90 damage that’s an average of 193 dps.
Now for phase boots – 0.96 base, after 2 attacks (approx 1.9 seconds – 34%) – 1.28 (aps), after 3 attacks (approx 2.7 seconds – 68%) – 1.61 (aps), after 4 attacks (approx 3.3 seconds) – 1.94 (aps), after 5 attacks (approx 3.8 seconds) – 2.27 (aps)
This is about an attack every 0.45 seconds so there are a remainder of 3 more attacks to fill the 5 seconds up. So to take an average - 0.96+0.96+1.28+1.61+1.94+(3x2.27) / 8 = average of 1.7 (aps)
At 90+24 damage (114) that’s an average of 193 dps. (welp!)
This so far doesn’t take account of bash chances over the 5 seconds. With treads at 10% chance to deal an extra 50 damage, you have a 1.2 likelihood of getting a bash. With phase, you have a 0.9 likelihood of getting a bash. As we are talking over 5 seconds we the distributed dps is 10. So we need to add 11 dps for treads and 8 dps for phase.
Totals –
Treads – 204 dps
Phase – 201 dps
Pretty much nothing in it. We should also consider that the damage of a hero sits between a low and a high number i.e. Warlord’s damage at lvl 16 is more like 81-99. Given this, the two are basically the same.
Battle Trance
Battle Trance at lvl 19 provides a bonus of 180 attack speed over 7 seconds. Max attack speed is 400 (AFAIK). So we need to reconsider the numbers for when trance is activated.
w/ Strength treads at lvl 16 – 0.96 base + Treads + BT (210%) = 2.01 (aps), after 2 attacks (approx 0.9 seconds) – 2.34 (aps), after 3 attacks (at 1.3 seconds) – 2.66 (aps), after 4 attacks (at 1.7 seconds) – 2.99 (aps), after 5 attacks (at 2 seconds – 168%)- 3.32 (aps)
3.32 (aps) is approx 3 attacks every 1 second, which means we can fit in 10 more attacks.
So to work out the average – 2.01+2.01+2.34+2.66+2.99+(11x3.32)/16 = 3.03
Which means the average damage with treads along is 273 (dps).
Now for phase boots – 0.96 base +BT (180), after 2 attacks (approx 1.1 seconds ) – 1.76 (aps), after 3 attacks (approx 1.6 seconds) – 2.1 (aps), after 4 attacks (approx 2 seconds) – 2.43 (aps), after 5 attacks (approx 2.35 seconds) – 2.76 (aps)
2.76 is approx 3.35 attacks every second which means we can fit in 8 more attacks.
So to work out the average – 1.76+1.76+2.1+2.43+(9x2.76)/13 = 2.53
Which means the average damage with phase is 288 (dps)
We need to take into account bash chance with the 10 extra dps it provides. Treads provide a 16 extra dps and Phase provide a further 13 -
Treads – 289 dps
Phase – 301 dps
Again, pretty much nothing in it.
Further considerations:
Agi Treads – I often sit on STR treads as I prefer the survivability. However, if you were to sit on agi treads, then the numbers would just about favour treads. This is because you would add an extra 8 attack speed and an extra 8 damage.
Without the attack speed or bash considerations – the extra 8 damage would provide a total dps of:
Agi Treads w/o BT – 209 dps
Agi Treads w/ BT – 296 dps (with further bash chance and more attacks, this will come out as higher than phase boots)
Move Speed – Phase provide extra move speed for chasing. How useful this is depends on the heroes you are against. For example, if you are vs a Luna then chase will be important due to her high mobility. If you are vs a Necrophos then move speed is less of a consideration due to lack of mobility. You’re move speed at lvl 16 will already be above 400 due to points in rage. Phasing through heroes and creeps is a consideration if this is something you are having trouble with.
Survivability – Str Treads provide a further 152 hit points (about the equivalent of a lvl 3 nuke). If you are facing heavy nukers then treads may be a good option. Eventually you will want to get a BKB anyway, but that’s going to come about 25 mins into the game, if you’re lucky. So that’s 10-15 minutes of game time where you will be more vulnerable to nukes without the extra HP.
Lock Down – Although we can treat bash chance as further dps, we can also consider that this provides lock down in duelling situations. Despite the lack of chase treads provide compared to phase, then further lock down they provide may make up for this in terms of increased chance to bash.
Conclusions
As always in Dota, your item choices should depend on the situation. Boot types are no exception even when a certain type is considered standard. This shouldn’t be news to anyone, but it is often overlooked in actual play. What I hope to have shown is that Power Treads are just as viable and, in some situations, more viable than Phase Boots on Troll Warlord.
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Treads are almost universally more dps, even on insanely attack-speed-biased carries like troll. However, the mobility and lasthitting power of phase heavily weight the scales in phase's favour. Especially as a hero with an ability like whirling axes (melee) which requires positioning difficult to achieve with treads.
Also, trolls utterly negligible mana requirements mean that tread-toggling, while incredibly good combined with his low low low int (the lower your str/int the better tread toggling is), isn't at all necessary if you have a bottle, which you should if you are mid, which you should be most of the time.
The problem with your wall of mathcraft is that you can't quantify the benefits of phase active on troll who badly badly needs it as a sort-of-melee carry with a mediocre slow as his only "positioning" tool. Even if you stay in ranged form u need the phase cuz ur slow as balls.
Lastly, you are 100% NOT calculating APS right. APS = (1 + IAS as a decimal)/BAT. Which on troll changes depending on ur form. Agi is included in IAS. BAT = 1.7 in ranged, 1.55 in melee.
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Thanks for the feedback.
The tread switching I think should be for Agi and Str. A basi or bottle will cover your mana as you say.
You've shown a couple of more assumptions I've made in all of this. The most major is that I've based most of this on being in melee stance.
I agree as well about all the maths, in that it doesn't tell the whole story at all. This is why I've put a section on other considerations. Those other things are hard to quantify and should be considered on a game to game basis.
I disagree with your comment about move speed. In ranged stance you have average movespeed (300). In melee you have very high movespeed depending on your level of Rage. By switching between the two appropriately you should always be able to close the distance, especially as your ranged W has a slow.
Edit : Another thing I've left out is that bash is a PRD. This probably changes some of the results.
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Strictly speaking your BAT doesn't effect the balance between DMG and IAS in terms of DPS since BAT is basically a fractional multiplier to your dps. However, your method of calculating attackspeed is WILDLY off and heavily overvalues additional attackspeed (like treads).
Anyway phase are still just better 9 out of 10 times. 30% slow sucks dick (although it lasts ages).
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I personally prefer phase boots heavily for a lot of the already mentioned reasons, they also help you get kills that you would have had zero chance getting with treads.
Running up and slowing someone and then using phase to get in their face has gotten me a ton of kills on squishier heroes.
With treads you a lot of heroes simply have the slow wear off slightly after you get in their phase and then they escape in my experience.
The movespeed is simply so very valuable as troll and outweighs the sheer damage increase treads gives compared to phase boots when hitting a target.
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On May 17 2014 02:47 SiwuA wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.
The tread switching I think should be for Agi and Str. A basi or bottle will cover your mana as you say.
You've shown a couple of more assumptions I've made in all of this. The most major is that I've based most of this on being in melee stance.
I agree as well about all the maths, in that it doesn't tell the whole story at all. This is why I've put a section on other considerations. Those other things are hard to quantify and should be considered on a game to game basis.
I disagree with your comment about move speed. In ranged stance you have average movespeed (300). In melee you have very high movespeed depending on your level of Rage. By switching between the two appropriately you should always be able to close the distance, especially as your ranged W has a slow.
Edit : Another thing I've left out is that bash is a PRD. This probably changes some of the results.
Math this math that. We love math on liquid, but let me tell you from raw experience and loving the shit outta this hero.
Let's just talk about DotA in general first. Treads will win straight DPS, almost no question here.
Now let's talk Troll Warlord. I can tell you from very long experience with troll and heavy analysis and reanalysis after each patch, that Phase be awesome on Troll.
***WARNING*** Long Troll History
When he was first imported (circa. 6.77c) his skill Whirling Axes (Melee) was bugged; there was no cast time, he could just chase and cast w/out the stand-still-movement penalty of using spells. This powered with Phase, meant he had awesome mobility, with great Nuke dmg.
After the Whirling Axes was fixed 6.78, it felt rather clunky but still playable. Battle Trance duration was nerfed 3sec, and the cooldown was nerfed 10sec; but these nerfs were rather minor compared to the Whirling Axes nerf even though it was only a mechanical fix. Last, Shadow Blade dmg was nerfed in this patch, though this only affected Troll in the scenario's he got that item.
In 6.79, Whirling Axes (Melee) got a dmg nerf and that total ended him from play. Shadow Blade was nerfed again in this patch, it's cooldown increased, nerfing again situations he got Shadow Blade.
Fast-forward to 6.81 and surprise! Icefrog has implemented that "bugged" state of Whirling Axes (Melee) 6.77c as an innate mechanic....weirdo that guy.
What you have now is the former fluid play of 6.77c, but with nerfed dmg. Not so bad. So yea...grab phase.
TLDR: You can math all you want bro, but I know from experience. My own, and watching better players. Now that the former "bugged" state of Melee Whirling Axes w/no cast time is back, Phase is definitely the go to boots. It's been a long time coming, long time coming.
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No reason not to get phase, especially since you can bash while phasing. Tread switching is one of the most overrated things in the game. On most heroes, the benefits from phasing severely outweighs that of tread switching, since the heroes benefit more from the extra ms and no creep blocking.
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Get phase if your not constantly getting ganked and actually dying. I played this hero once after new patch in solo q and the axes unnerf cast time was very much needed, now you can solo kill much easier.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
OP, your calculations are not only overcomplicated, but also operate off of false assumption that +%ias = +% as. It works more like that: %ias = %of bonus as relative to as (100), so in the end aps=(100+ias)/(BAT*100). So, if we take that troll's damage is x and he has no other attack speed items other than either str pt or none(dominator-bkb-daedalus being his main 3 damage options, this is very much possible) at lvl16:
Without battle trance:
With str pt:
IAS at lvl16=21+2.75*15+2+30=94
dps at lvl16=x*194/BAT
With phase
IAS at lvl16=64
dps at lvl16=(x+24)*164/BAT
Since fervor and battle trance will only shift it into phase boots bias we just need to see if it's more dps for phase boots:
Str pt vs Phase boots
x vs 131
So, if your attack damage without phase is less than 131, pt is worse than phase from dps point of view. And fervor stacks/battle trance only shift this further into phase boots favor. Add phase active and there is little visible reason to get pt on Troll.
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The problem of not having phaseboots for me is that i cant move through nonhero units. So even if the movementspeed isnt a problem (i have a ranged slow), the creepwaves/nonhero units will decrease my movementspeed by alot resulting in less and delayed damageoutput (maybe even killing my own teamm8's indirectly).
E: Undying basically has the same problem. Without phaseboots to move though the zombies (tombstone) he cant secure alot of kills/assists, making tombstone a less impactfull spell if you dont choose phaseboots over other boots.
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Hence if your the aggressor get phaseboots on most heroes, if your team is losing and your defending get treads.
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Is it better to play this hero mid or as a sidelane farmer? I've heard that he is a great midlaner but I wasn't able to solo kill almost anybody despite winning mid hard. On the other hand, i had great succes using troll offlane together with sd or lich. Disruption into whirling axes is a death sentence for most heroes and if you get basi you can do it over and over again.
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His solo kill potential against ranged heroes isnt very high unless you bait them into overextending. I'd prefer to run troll in a dual lane with some support. Kill potential is pretty high at lvl2 in a dual lane, and fast basi/aquala is very efficient in lane.
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On May 24 2014 00:37 HighTimeDotA wrote:
His solo kill potential against ranged heroes isnt very high unless you bait them into overextending. I'd prefer to run troll in a dual lane with some support. Kill potential is pretty high at lvl2 in a dual lane, and fast basi/aquala is very efficient in lane.
Very true. Very recently I saw a pub game where Artezy offlaned troll alongside PPD as Rubick and they completely destroyed the lane. The amount of damage troll does early on is easy to underestimate.
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What about skill builds? I assumed this patch 1-4-1-1 into 4-4-1-1 would be the best, but according to dotabuff only 4% of players build him like that. I suck at math so i won't do the DPS thingy, but MS+better bash seems overall better than AS. Also lvl1 fervor seems to be a sweet value point.
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mainly depends on if your laning or neuting or free farming. If your dual laning and trying to get kills 4-4-1-1 is the build to go if your jungling 1-4-4-1 would be better and allows for solo rosh with some lifesteal. not a fan of junling troll though since just killing heroes with him is much easier.
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When going 4-4-1-1, what do you max first? I assume Whirling Axes?
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Yep, recent unnerf of melee axe cast time makes him decent again.
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I remember a period when the Chinese went heart on troll. There's just no defending that build.
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What's wrong with it and what is troll supposed to do?
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On May 26 2014 15:15 GtC wrote:
What's wrong with it and what is troll supposed to do?
Well I must admit that it is not exactly the most terrible of items on troll, certainly not on the same level as bloodstone on necro or heart on slark. Still satanic is a better item on troll. More importantly, the Chinese built barely any damage items on troll, usually opting for blink bkb heart. Its not the worst since at least you still contribute with ulti and hoping to bash the carries like an anti carry. But still the games had showed how irrelevant troll was with this build.
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On May 26 2014 11:29 rebdomine wrote:
When going 4-4-1-1, what do you max first? I assume Whirling Axes?
Why max Q over E? You can do Roshan at level 11 with HotD if you max W and E
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is offlane troll viable in competitive? i remember DK pulling that one before
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On May 26 2014 16:46 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 11:29 rebdomine wrote:
When going 4-4-1-1, what do you max first? I assume Whirling Axes? Why max Q over E? You can do Roshan at level 11 with HotD if you max W and E
The bonus MS would be pretty useful if you want to kill enemy heroes in the mid game? I was just basing it off a suggestion from a different post.
I suppose going 1-4-4-1 is a lot better if you are just going to go afk farm
On May 26 2014 16:49 icystorage wrote:
is offlane troll viable in competitive? i remember DK pulling that one before
I think it was done if they knew it was going to be a 1v1 lane. He's barely been picked since the 6.79 nerfs though.
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Oh, I was just asking as it didn't seem to make sense to me :B
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On May 26 2014 16:49 icystorage wrote:
is offlane troll viable in competitive? i remember DK pulling that one before
mouz looooooooooves Troll, to great effect!
Edit: but only mid! I'm completely and utterly blind.
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They do, but they play him mid.
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On May 29 2014 00:25 Shikada wrote:
They do, but they play him mid.
scoops
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I mean DK put all sorts of weird heroes offlane when they know its a 1v1 (like Mushi offlane OD once lol).
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Anyone remembers mouz.FATA's build for troll in last game vs Team Liquid @ D2CL, couple of days ago? I remember listening the caters saying that he likes to do it all the time, he went for mekansm and then for vlad's but I can't remember the rest.
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Bottle, phase, wand, mek, vlad's and bkb is what im seeing most of the time on FATA's troll.
Edit: wtf FATA is 9-0 with troll?!
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Wakadodo is right, but its only proven in that type of draft. I like the sven and troll combo, its really nice
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How is diffusal blade on Troll?
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On June 12 2014 16:03 Aldrovandi wrote:
How is diffusal blade on Troll?
The idea behind it? So we can comment on that.
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Troll's at his best when he can manfight someone, but has no good way to force it since his ranged slow is kinda wimpy, so the purge slow is nice. Also, the flat feedback damage/manaburn synergizes well with all of the attack speed he gets. I'm just not sure if it's cost-effective.
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if there's an omni/lock/pugna/ghostscepters sure. otherwise its not the most cost effective item on troll + you can't go hotd/satanic.
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I remember playing a game where troll went MoM (first after boots!), team laughed and we trashed him pretty thoroughly. Then somehow their team managed to make enough space for him/managed to farm enough to get bkb/mkb and we promptly got rekt by the raw dps/bashing.
MoM seems very overkill/snowbally, but if your team can set you up it outputs a LOT of dps.
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On June 13 2014 02:37 Vikeif wrote:
I remember playing a game where troll went MoM (first after boots!), team laughed and we trashed him pretty thoroughly. Then somehow their team managed to make enough space for him/managed to farm enough to get bkb/mkb and we promptly got rekt by the raw dps/bashing.
MoM seems very overkill/snowbally, but if your team can set you up it outputs a LOT of dps.
Mom is pretty bad on him, he doesnt need the attack speed. A HotD is a lot better: more dmg, can build into satanic, and can grab a wolf and just have him follow you around.
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On June 13 2014 02:37 Vikeif wrote:
I remember playing a game where troll went MoM (first after boots!), team laughed and we trashed him pretty thoroughly. Then somehow their team managed to make enough space for him/managed to farm enough to get bkb/mkb and we promptly got rekt by the raw dps/bashing.
MoM seems very overkill/snowbally, but if your team can set you up it outputs a LOT of dps.
Yes if your team can setup you up for this incredibly silly situation, it works. But in these situations, you're molding the game to fit this style, even though it's sub optimal. I hope people don't confuse this as good decision making.
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Holy crap Sange and Yasha on Troll has been a revelation for me(in games where I don't absolutely need a BKB after HotD). Sticking power, damage, durability, 514 movespeed when phased in Berserker's Rage, you can pressure towers wherever and then go farm every jungle camp when the enemy shows up in force.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On June 13 2014 02:37 Vikeif wrote:
I remember playing a game where troll went MoM (first after boots!), team laughed and we trashed him pretty thoroughly. Then somehow their team managed to make enough space for him/managed to farm enough to get bkb/mkb and we promptly got rekt by the raw dps/bashing.
MoM seems very overkill/snowbally, but if your team can set you up it outputs a LOT of dps.
I mean I'm pretty sure it had little to do with MoM, and more to do with the space he got to farm bkb and mkb. He has a free mom with his ult, with none of the downsides (I guess you don't get the +ms)
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Go to the lane that will allow you to be the most aggressive. (Offlane with support)
Don't farm.
Jungling and farming safelane is useless.
Why are you so fixated on Treads vs Phase.
Treads for extra tank
Phase for extra movespeed
That's all there is to it.
About BKB:
If you are losing really hard and you buy BKB, you've probably lost anyway.
BKB on Troll is better in games you are winning, that you can finally end them with BKB usage,
or games that are even, were you have another carry to do the damage and you provide a strong frontline for him in fights with BKB.
This hero is so easy to win with its ridiculous.
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On July 15 2014 21:34 ChunderBoy wrote:
Go to the lane that will allow you to be the most aggressive. (Offlane with support)
Don't farm.
Jungling and farming safelane is useless.
Why are you so fixated on Treads vs Phase.
Treads for extra tank
Phase for extra movespeed
That's all there is to it.
About BKB:
If you are losing really hard and you buy BKB, you've probably lost anyway.
BKB on Troll is better in games you are winning, that you can finally end them with BKB usage,
or games that are even, were you have another carry to do the damage and you provide a strong frontline for him in fights with BKB.
This hero is so easy to win with its ridiculous.
This hero is completely legit.
I'm not sure how good it is, but I really like S&Y on this hero (the build-up is a bit awkward), if only so I can run around with 512 MS in teamfights. Permahaste is hilarious.
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So I'd like to learn Troll. What is the best way/style to play him? Any tips/tricks/advice?
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Get a support on your lane, win your lane, take objectives with battle trance. I feel as soon as your team does not take objectives you're falling back. I prefer vlad over HotD as the 5 armor aoe really helps with pushing. Mek is surely great too. Then just focusing on tanky items to be a frontliner is ok if your support does good damage or you have other carries. Also the main goal in fight is to apply the blind on key ennemies and then sticking on one.
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Don't forget to press Q a lot for movement speed, armour and damage. It's much easier to last hit under melee form and you should be melee if you're taking harass.
Try to get a mana item early on to sustain his W for combat, I'm a big fan of aquila on him but basi is sufficient.
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On July 17 2014 00:34 BoZiffer wrote:
So I'd like to learn Troll. What is the best way/style to play him? Any tips/tricks/advice?
2 ways to play him. One is to treat him as a utility solo whereby your contribution is basic nukes, utility/semi carry items and battle trance. You are a competent solo, and you should be able to get a timely Mek. After which you should get stuff like DPS items, or auras. I'm not a fan of going blink + bkb + tank etc, because you are a low priority target or not a threat if you don't have damage later on. If you're steering away from damage, at least get useful items with actives like halberd diffusal eblade hex Shiva's etc.
The second way is just as a DPS hero from the get go. Standard DPS carry items like crit bkb lifesteal butterfly mkb etc. Participate early because troll can do so. The hero is good for pushing towers early on too.
One thing is don't be too stubborn in melee form. Sometimes all you need is to right click with ranged form. For pubs, shadowblade is a good choice.
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Thanks for all the advice guys. Solid stuff. Who are better laning partners with Troll?
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Best I've had so far was Shadow Demon.
Disruption is enough in terms of lockdown because as a Troll you only need to catch up to the enemy, then whirling axes will do their job. Disruption + lvl2/3 soul catcher + whirling axes = instagib on heroes without escapes. Oh, and it also can save your squishy ass from death.
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I've been spamming games with Troll ever since I randomly queued with KvH (#7) who went Troll mid. It looked fun so I decided to try it out after watching a few replays of high level Troll games.
You can see my general build here:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9yevoLH.png)
BO : Phase/Bottle - Drums - SNY/HotD - BKB/Daed/Satanic/Blink/Bfly
phase > treads (MS & +24 dmg)
hotd > vlads (+20 dmg)
bottle > aquila (runes, early hp regen, easier to sell)
I think treads is a waste since you hit 0.3~0.4s/attack so quickly anyway, and the move speed secures potential kills or your safety. I haven't really experimented with vlads but hotd damage is really nice and you'll life leech in ranged form as well. It's probably better for an ally to pick up the vlads.
People really underestimate his slow (30%!) and miss chance (60%!) so you can get some easy first bloods by man-fighting people early on. Melee form armor and bonus HP lets you dive pretty easily.
good : very fast, huge dps w/ insane attack speed, great pusher, can solo rosh, lanes anywhere, good FB potential, easy itemization, fairly durable, low mana cost & low CD skills, flying vision on axes, and can still hard carry
bad : not many, but item-slot constrained, wave-clear is average (225 nuke, 300 w/ ranged), engagements are largely affected by ranged axes & trance CDs or mana pool
The thing I'm unsure about is his build order. Fervor or melee form after maxing axes? I'm leaning toward melee because move speed and higher bash duration is great, and more attack speed is not really necessary with trance. Any thoughts?
edit: Offlane Troll build here.
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Beesa nr 1=92% winrate, what a baller
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Your intuition is correct here, you don't need to pump more into Fervor, what's gonna get you online and in the enemy's face faster is Berserker's Rage. The longer bash, bash dmg, and the movespeed should be optimal in most situations, unless you are changing yourstyle to work around an early maxed fervor, which I'll admit I haven't found a way to run yet. I'm sure there is, but generally speaking Max W, then Q.
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max melee after axes, it gives u more movespeed...
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I think a better question is... do I skip fervor entirely or get a value point in it?
4-4-0-1 vs 3-4-1-1 by level 9
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United States47024 Posts
4-4-0-1 until Valve fixes the bug where you don't benefit from Fervor until your 3rd attack.
Basically, you gain a Fervor stack at the end of your attack point, so you don't actually benefit from Fervor on the attack that gives you the stack. This is correctly implemented, but whoever coded the skill thought that meant that you shouldn't gain your first Fervor stack until your 2nd attack, which is wrong. Since you gain your first Fervor stack at the end of your 2nd attack, you don't get any extra attack speed until you're making a 3rd attack.
This actually makes switching targets in general kind of awkward because the first attack on a new target is supposed to give you a fresh stack at the same time it removes your old stacks for the previous target, so you always attack with at least 1 stack worth of AS. With the bug, you get reset to 0 stacks every time you switch targets.
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No one goes 1-4-4 now? I thought you maxed E for Roshan at 11 (+ HOTD)
I just played a Troll game and I think I underestimated the core need for S&Y but what is Drums for? Is it situational or core?
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That was only ever done as proof of concept, and of course your random occasional pub that wanted to do it just because he wanted to jungle. Outside of that, it was always Beserker's rage for the movespeed, even when it scaled differently it was the one to max after W.
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Wow, my concept and understanding of Troll is severely misunderstood.
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I tried papers build, itemsequence felt pretty good and doable for anyone.
Just wondering if it would be viable to rush a butterfly on troll instead of the S&Y if you allready went for the drums.
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On October 21 2014 16:35 govie wrote:
I tried papers build, itemsequence felt pretty good and doable for anyone.
Just wondering if it would be viable to rush a butterfly on troll instead of the S&Y if you allready went for the drums.
u already have miss chance, why wud u get such an early butterfly... it doesnt even give hp
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I've played around with Mjollnir on this hero - its really strong, but timing it seems a bit odd. Probably better to just grab a daedalus instead. I could see an argument for skadi instead of butterfly if you already have a damage item, but you're probably fine tankwise with S&Y, BKB, and Satanic.
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On October 21 2014 23:46 Comeh wrote:
I've played around with Mjollnir on this hero - its really strong, but timing it seems a bit odd. Probably better to just grab a daedalus instead. I could see an argument for skadi instead of butterfly if you already have a damage item, but you're probably fine tankwise with S&Y, BKB, and Satanic.
You can always keep Mael. for sake of farming/damage/IAS and straight go to bkb.
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On October 21 2014 16:35 govie wrote:
I tried papers build, itemsequence felt pretty good and doable for anyone.
Just wondering if it would be viable to rush a butterfly on troll instead of the S&Y if you allready went for the drums.
I believe that the sny is for the maim as well. That combined with the additional ms should keep your target from going anywhere while you hammer away. If you are in a situation where you are not having problems staying on target, then grab something that will keep you alive longer so you can continue to dish out damage, or something that gives you more damage (which bfly does, but there are more cost effective alternatives like Daedalus, unless you really need that flutter/evasion for some reason).
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No one goes 1-4-4 now? I thought you maxed E for Roshan at 11 (+ HOTD)
I just played a Troll game and I think I underestimated the core need for S&Y but what is Drums for? Is it situational or core?
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1-4-4 was a relic of when ur q didn't actually improve with levels (basically just bash duration or something equally awful). Hasn't been like that for a few patches although technically the build has some merit with respect to solo-roshing etc.
I don't think drums are good that often but if ur fighting a lot early, not much beats drums/aquila for early fight efficiency.
Also drums/travs/SnY is 522ms permanently in lvl4 melee form. Much fun.
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How is Troll meant to be played now? With 1-4-4, you would get Morbid Mask then just jungle until 11, do Rosh and then go ham after getting Phase -> HOTD -> Black King Bar.
Is he more aggressive now or still a massive farmer and you can't do Rosh at 11.
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I'm pretty sure that was never how u played troll lol
u wanna push with ur ult and ur pretty damn strong in fights if you are good at getting in and getting out properly and abusing ur ability to change forms.
Ur slow is really good and nobody can ever manfight u if ur blind hits them. A fast bkb fixes more or less everything if ur team fights/pushes with u. If u afk rice ur very likely to just get outscaled.
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Drums are okay, but its a lot of money that could be going towards your yasha. Hard for me to convince myself to pick them up, I usually like getting aquila and a bracer if I need the extra HP.
Not bad at all though to get drums I suppose.
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On October 22 2014 02:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'm pretty sure that was never how u played troll lol
u wanna push with ur ult and ur pretty damn strong in fights if you are good at getting in and getting out properly and abusing ur ability to change forms.
Ur slow is really good and nobody can ever manfight u if ur blind hits them. A fast bkb fixes more or less everything if ur team fights/pushes with u. If u afk rice ur very likely to just get outscaled.
That's pretty much what happens. I've been watching many Troll players play and it usually ends up that they get their core items but it feels too late.
For the top Troll Players, they seem to always get Drums.
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Troll gets kited quite a bunch and fights a lot so I can see why drums would be nice. Early phase/drums/yasha makes you strong and very hard to run from.
My main question is when do you guys pick troll? I'm a large fan of picking the right hero for the right lineup, my personal impression is pick troll when you have another carry that scales very well with attack speed (faceless and slark come to mind the most) but I really don't know
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On October 22 2014 02:52 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 02:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'm pretty sure that was never how u played troll lol
u wanna push with ur ult and ur pretty damn strong in fights if you are good at getting in and getting out properly and abusing ur ability to change forms.
Ur slow is really good and nobody can ever manfight u if ur blind hits them. A fast bkb fixes more or less everything if ur team fights/pushes with u. If u afk rice ur very likely to just get outscaled. That's pretty much what happens. I've been watching many Troll players play and it usually ends up that they get their core items but it feels too late. For the top Troll Players, they seem to always get Drums.
#1 on dotabuff that wud be me
On October 22 2014 02:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
No one goes 1-4-4 now? I thought you maxed E for Roshan at 11 (+ HOTD)
I just played a Troll game and I think I underestimated the core need for S&Y but what is Drums for? Is it situational or core?
i barely see anyone going 1-4-4, i have never done that in 10 years of playing this game and i also have nvr rushed hotd just to rosh. guess its a trench build. drums is not a core item for any hero, its just rly damn nice to have when u get it as 7-8min with phase boots and other small items.
On October 22 2014 02:45 Comeh wrote:
Drums are okay, but its a lot of money that could be going towards your yasha. Hard for me to convince myself to pick them up, I usually like getting aquila and a bracer if I need the extra HP.
Not bad at all though to get drums I suppose.
drums gives hp to survive another nuke, more ms/as than yasha when u use charge, more mana to cast 2 whirling axes and ulti more in fights, slot efficient and cheaper... its not like the 10% ms from yasha is better
On October 22 2014 02:26 Torte de Lini wrote:
How is Troll meant to be played now? With 1-4-4, you would get Morbid Mask then just jungle until 11, do Rosh and then go ham after getting Phase -> HOTD -> Black King Bar.
Is he more aggressive now or still a massive farmer and you can't do Rosh at 11.
i dunno where u are getting this statement from "Is he more aggressive now or still a massive farmer and you can't do Rosh at 11". ever since his blind --> whirling axes rework he has been one of the most aggressive early/mid game heroes, u dont put him in lanes to farm, u put him in lanes against carries to make sure they get nothing coz ure too strong
On October 22 2014 03:12 Varth wrote:
Troll gets kited quite a bunch and fights a lot so I can see why drums would be nice. Early phase/drums/yasha makes you strong and very hard to run from.
My main question is when do you guys pick troll? I'm a large fan of picking the right hero for the right lineup, my personal impression is pick troll when you have another carry that scales very well with attack speed (faceless and slark come to mind the most) but I really don't know
i dont get troll to go with my team, i get troll to destory some hero in enemy lane
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So you punish a weaker enemy safelane that has a melee carry then? I'm guessing you duel offlane with another char?
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SoCal8908 Posts
On October 22 2014 05:04 Varth wrote:
So you punish a weaker enemy safelane that has a melee carry then? I'm guessing you duel offlane with another char?
troll can absolutely wreck any melee hero in lane..i mean absolutely DESTROY them. stick troll in a dual lane with an aggressive support and you'll have a good time. i do think he should dual with another support (as opposed to solo) in order to win the lane as opposed to push even.
in my limited experience (someone with more troll games might say otherwise) but after you have bullied the enemy out of the lane, that support can then rotate mid or safe to help that lan and ofc let troll get solo xp..unless you can repeatedly kill the carry bc he refuses to sit back and soak xp
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How popular is Troll Mid?
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On October 22 2014 05:30 Torte de Lini wrote:
How popular is Troll Mid?
Popular?
Not very.
Legit?
Yes.
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It looked legit but I'm fearful he gets owned by a bunch of ranged mids.
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On October 22 2014 05:37 Torte de Lini wrote:
It looked legit but I'm fearful he gets owned by a bunch of ranged mids.
like who?
He's as good a ranged mid as any other ranged mid. But he also has melee bullshit.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean obviously, he's not Skywrath/Bane/LD/Brood/whatever, but he's still a very strong 1v1 hero.
If we're talking purely 1v1 mid, he's on the same level as something like QoP/Viper/etc. where he's not blindly good against everything, but he's decently strong against most heroes and pretty much always has room to outplay even in "bad" matchups.
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My guess is that when you play him mid, the ring of protection and ring of basilisius buffs are descent and can be more influencial then on a sidelane.
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? no lol basi's good for sidelane pushes to punish non-present offlaners and as a mana source when u can't run bottle
so not mid
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then i never gonna build basi again on troll Just shows how bad i am at this hero.
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United States47024 Posts
Well, no, it's still useful if you're on a sidelane for the reason Sn0_Man said (and Troll breaks towers very fast if you have level 6), so "never build basi" is wrong too, you just wouldn't build it mid necessarily.
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basi is such a cheap item that it is nvr bad on any hero, and aquila is rly good on him
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I find grabbing the RoQ/Basi mid to be a bit redundant since i'm getting the mana from bottle anyway, and the bonus armor is great too but you have melee form and again bottle to offset the effective health.
In the sidelanes you'll find you need so much mana to keep up with the Whirlwind Axe'ing, and where bottle usually helps, you need to fill in the mana regen with Basi/RoQ, which already gives you extra dmg, minor stats, and lane/push control.
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Ring of aquila is just absurd on agi heroes
18 damage, ridiculous build up, good armor, mana regen stats only 1k gold jfkldsa;jlfkjkadsl;
its so good.
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My opinion is that aquila is obviously good, but you run out of inventory space so fast that you're going to sell it soon after you get it. And some other teammate is bound to get a basi anyway which doesn't stack.
Where do you fit aquila (unless you're crushing early game non-stop till the game ends)?
Boots - Bottle - TP - Drums - SNY - HotD - [Big Item] / [Aegis] / [Dust/Wards/Smoke]
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On October 21 2014 12:23 TheYango wrote:
4-4-0-1 until Valve fixes the bug where you don't benefit from Fervor until your 3rd attack.
Basically, you gain a Fervor stack at the end of your attack point, so you don't actually benefit from Fervor on the attack that gives you the stack. This is correctly implemented, but whoever coded the skill thought that meant that you shouldn't gain your first Fervor stack until your 2nd attack, which is wrong. Since you gain your first Fervor stack at the end of your 2nd attack, you don't get any extra attack speed until you're making a 3rd attack.
Wow.. I just didn't know that bug. I was always giving 1 value point on fervor.
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I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later.
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On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later.
You don't always need to be in melee. A lot of people waste so much time trying to hit when they could have killed in ranged form. Also, get phase.
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I got Phase.
Melee for the extra damage and movement speed no?
If I go range, they just run away anyways
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On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later.
My troll is really bad, but i tried that itembuild above and its descent. The phase/drums grants damage, movementspeed, some manapool and hp early. The hotd for sustain and more damage also felt fine. I do think a bkb is more important then a S&Y because i suck and a bkb can compensate my noobness better then a S&Y can.
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On October 23 2014 22:49 Torte de Lini wrote:
I got Phase.
Melee for the extra damage and movement speed no?
If I go range, they just run away anyways
Get into melee, axes ult and whack/pray for bash. If they start to run, switch to range, axes to slow, switch to melee and go back in for more whacks. Switch to range if they get out of range again and you can't catch, and whack more. You can stick fairly well that way.
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wierd thought here. The new diffusal has more agi less manaburn and the active grants more melee bashes? must be really bad idea right?
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That sounds like a shi...
Actually that sounds like it could be somewhat legit =\ Worth a shot...
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Just tried mid and it was marginally more successful, but still lost. Against any dedicated carry, he just falls and what happened again was magic nuked me down low enough to not make my insane attack speed kill him in time before he kills me.
I can usually get up to S&Y and then BKB either comes too late nad I never reach HOTD before hte game is over entirely.
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In side lane I grab orb of venom as soon as I can. You can harass easily by swapping to ranged mode, and once you have boots you can hit them with impunity if they let you-- but since you're fast as fuck that shouldn't be hard. Between the orb's slow, your active slow, and any bashes you get, you can easily zone or kill the enemy. I buy stout shield, so you take very little damage from creep aggro while you do this.
I usually buy vlads so I can use other orbs, but if your team is lacking in scaling damage and you don't think you can win by going all-in early you can get a dominator instead for farm acceleration.
If I don't need a bkb out of the vlads opening I like going diffusal manta. If you ever catch someone out they're just dead between the purge, slows, 3man manaburn, your bashes, and your stupidly good attack speed.
If you open with the dominator and don't have a dire need for a specific item after I'd recommend maelstrom to clear jungle stacks more easily. It gives you more aoe damage in fights as well, and is pretty strong since they fixed maelstrom procs not stacking.
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does the illusions attackspeed also vary?
E : gamepedia doesnt mention it does.
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i rarely get lifesteal on this hero
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On October 24 2014 02:03 ChunderBoy wrote:
i rarely get lifesteal on this hero
Troll is one of my favorite and most successful heroes, and this is a terrible way to play him, imo.
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On October 24 2014 02:05 Acetone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 02:03 ChunderBoy wrote:
i rarely get lifesteal on this hero Troll is one of my favorite and most successful heroes, and this is a terrible way to play him, imo.
you may have missed this part:
On October 22 2014 03:48 ChunderBoy wrote:
#1 on dotabuff that wud be me
which was true btw (apparently hes #2 now wat a noob)
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On October 24 2014 00:08 govie wrote:
wierd thought here. The new diffusal has more agi less manaburn and the active grants more melee bashes? must be really bad idea right?
does the illusions attackspeed also vary?
You eventually want a Satanic on Troll, so you'd have to sell the Diffusal Blade. I've never done this build myself, but I've seen it discussed a few times before, and I think it could be fairly strong in the early- and mid-game with and against certain heroes. If you're having problems with being kited, as Torte de Lini has brought up, and Diffusal Blade's Purge slow is a significant reason for you to buy it, I suggest an Orb of Venom instead. Hell, it's really good in general on Troll.
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On October 24 2014 02:07 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 02:05 Acetone wrote:On October 24 2014 02:03 ChunderBoy wrote:
i rarely get lifesteal on this hero Troll is one of my favorite and most successful heroes, and this is a terrible way to play him, imo. you may have missed this part: which was true btw (apparently hes #2 now wat a noob)
Huh, well, I'm curious about his reasoning for usually forgoing lifesteal on a hero that is essentially all about manning up and hitting people.
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u just bkb and slay
whats lifesteal good for? farming... which isn't really a plan on troll.
Eventually its fine just there's limited value early. And it isn't like they can try to right click u if u can get axes on them (60% miss chance lel).
Lifesteal's never been an efficient manfight stat actually (unless u've arrived at satanic or have open wounds/feast).
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if i need lifesteal ill buy satanic in one go at late game
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I think lifesteal is ok in some organized competitive games based around timing a pick into instant rosh but rosh kind of sucks this patch so thats not even that good anymore.
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Not getting lifesteal on Troll, unless I'm hitting like a truck, and usually all at once as mentioned above. Although you can play in a way to get use out of the HotD/lifesteal in a teamfight, Troll is way more susceptible to nuking and burst, which raw hp or a BKB would help out with more. The item won't harm you a lot, but it's insignificant early, and will set you back from items that you will really really need.
I'd note however, if there's a game I'm getting lifesteal earlier than normal, it'll be for very specific purposes like pushing with team or we got synergizing heroes (vlads). If I need an extra creep to micro or execute a push, i grab the HotD. As you can see niche situations that I don't encounter much, and it's not even the lifesteal that's the deciding influence on getting the HotD/vlads or not.
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ur also mega slot constrained if ur buying like boots/stick/tp/aquila/bkb then you literally spend ur last slot on lifesteal (and the best part of lifesteal is killing rosh and then u don't have an aegis slot, and it's way too early to sell stick  )
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On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later.
I'd recommend watching some high level replays to get a sense of how to play him and focus on their aggression/positioning.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2014 02:14 Acetone wrote:
Huh, well, I'm curious about his reasoning for usually forgoing lifesteal on a hero that is essentially all about manning up and hitting people.
Because even for man-fighting stats, Lifesteal is not an efficient one until lategame when you already have sufficient damage, armor, HP, and possibly evasion.
Like, for pure fighting power if you compare Lifesteal values to HP sources, Lifesteal actually compares super poorly until lategame when you're actually doing a LOT of damage.
On October 24 2014 02:26 Comeh wrote:
I think lifesteal is ok in some organized competitive games based around timing a pick into instant rosh but rosh kind of sucks this patch so thats not even that good anymore.
You don't need Lifesteal to do this. For early Roshes, -armor from a support getting Medallion impacts doing Rosh more because it makes you do it FASTER.
Lifesteal is only going to be super impactful on Rosh solos/2 man Roshes. If you have like 4-5 people hitting Rosh after a pick, you don't need Lifesteal because with Battle Trance you're going to finish crazy fast anyway.
On October 24 2014 01:28 govie wrote:
does the illusions attackspeed also vary?
E : gamepedia doesnt mention it does.
If you mean if they benefit from Fervor, the answer is no. It used to be bugged, but this was fixed.
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On October 24 2014 05:04 paper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later. I'd recommend watching some high level replays to get a sense of how to play him and focus on their aggression/positioning.
I tried checking out some in the Live section of Dota 2, but they either fail really hard or aren't that high MMR so to speak.
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On October 24 2014 08:15 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 05:04 paper wrote:On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later. I'd recommend watching some high level replays to get a sense of how to play him and focus on their aggression/positioning. I tried checking out some in the Live section of Dota 2, but they either fail really hard or aren't that high MMR so to speak.
Insane! Last 3 won matches of beesa.
24-0-5 : XPM1118 : GPM0993
13-0-4 : XPM0823 : GPM0788
26-2-9 : XPM0891 : GPM0781
Seeing those games i think papers items are fine, i just suck with it.
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On October 24 2014 08:34 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 08:15 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 24 2014 05:04 paper wrote:On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later. I'd recommend watching some high level replays to get a sense of how to play him and focus on their aggression/positioning. I tried checking out some in the Live section of Dota 2, but they either fail really hard or aren't that high MMR so to speak. Insane! Last 3 won matches of beesa. 24-0-5 : XPM1118 : GPM0993 13-0-4 : XPM0823 : GPM0788 26-2-9 : XPM0891 : GPM0781 Seeing those games i think papers items are fine, i just suck with it.
You and me both
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On October 24 2014 09:06 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 08:34 govie wrote:On October 24 2014 08:15 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 24 2014 05:04 paper wrote:On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later. I'd recommend watching some high level replays to get a sense of how to play him and focus on their aggression/positioning. I tried checking out some in the Live section of Dota 2, but they either fail really hard or aren't that high MMR so to speak. Insane! Last 3 won matches of beesa. 24-0-5 : XPM1118 : GPM0993 13-0-4 : XPM0823 : GPM0788 26-2-9 : XPM0891 : GPM0781 Seeing those games i think papers items are fine, i just suck with it. You and me both
I think we should just do what paper did, watch games of people that know what there doing. #trololo
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Too many people have an obsession with early vlads IMO.
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On October 24 2014 09:06 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 08:34 govie wrote:On October 24 2014 08:15 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 24 2014 05:04 paper wrote:On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later. I'd recommend watching some high level replays to get a sense of how to play him and focus on their aggression/positioning. I tried checking out some in the Live section of Dota 2, but they either fail really hard or aren't that high MMR so to speak. Insane! Last 3 won matches of beesa. 24-0-5 : XPM1118 : GPM0993 13-0-4 : XPM0823 : GPM0788 26-2-9 : XPM0891 : GPM0781 Seeing those games i think papers items are fine, i just suck with it. You and me both
1 advice so far is to get a pms, RoA is not a substitute. PMS makes you more tanky during the earlier levels.
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On October 24 2014 05:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 02:26 Comeh wrote:
I think lifesteal is ok in some organized competitive games based around timing a pick into instant rosh but rosh kind of sucks this patch so thats not even that good anymore. You don't need Lifesteal to do this. For early Roshes, -armor from a support getting Medallion impacts doing Rosh more because it makes you do it FASTER. Lifesteal is only going to be super impactful on Rosh solos/2 man Roshes. If you have like 4-5 people hitting Rosh after a pick, you don't need Lifesteal because with Battle Trance you're going to finish crazy fast anyway.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Lifesteal otherwise is useful for farming (HotD for stacking, MoM for obvious farming), which isn't really what troll shoudl be doing. Obviously Vlads has some value in armor stacking for pushes, which isn't too bad for Troll, but I really like getting Aquila + Drums.
Note: I really need to start watching replays of Beesa.
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On October 24 2014 21:56 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 09:06 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 24 2014 08:34 govie wrote:On October 24 2014 08:15 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 24 2014 05:04 paper wrote:On October 23 2014 20:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand this hero at all. Doesn't feel that good at chasing down heroes at 6/Max Q and doesn't feel any good getting Aquila and using 6 to push towers.
Feels like he can't do anything alone or better than another more dedicated role hero.
Melts against any magic or nuke and then just falls apart since he doesn't get lifesteal until after BKB/S&Y
Any slow completely removes his ability to chase down any hero since your BKB doesn't come until much later. I'd recommend watching some high level replays to get a sense of how to play him and focus on their aggression/positioning. I tried checking out some in the Live section of Dota 2, but they either fail really hard or aren't that high MMR so to speak. Insane! Last 3 won matches of beesa. 24-0-5 : XPM1118 : GPM0993 13-0-4 : XPM0823 : GPM0788 26-2-9 : XPM0891 : GPM0781 Seeing those games i think papers items are fine, i just suck with it. You and me both 1 advice so far is to get a pms, RoA is not a substitute. PMS makes you more tanky during the earlier levels.
When would you finish your PMS: pre or post bottle?
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It depends, but I would get it post-bottle. I rarely go PMS though.
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To everyone giving itemization advice (or tips in general, I guess), where are you laning? Mid or safe?
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Agreed i should have specified better.: Not going for a bottle+duallane.
I tried the suggestions mentioned here about Q+both nukes to harras inlane but that drawed creepaggro. With a RoP i needed too many consumeables, a PMS is better suited for that job. So if you plan on being aggresive early with troll inlane, a PMS seems to save alot of gold. If you just want to farm in the early game, pms seems less usefull, Like tortedelini im just trying everything to find or experience what im doing wrong and seek and analyse small differences,
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Ideally you're using whirling to last-hit & harass at the same time. The miss chance reduces creep damage and you should come out on top. The only regen I go to lane with is a set of tangos (and maybe +salve if the lane looks annoying) which easily tides me over till bottle.
Bottle is worth considering in any lane. While PMS does reduce damage, it's not going to heal you back up, and the new rune change gives you a close rune every spawn. I'd rather have a faster bracer because the PMS gets sold way too fast.
Tip: try to HP regen (tango or bottle) while in ranged mode, then swap back to melee mode (which is what you're going to be in most of the time). It's a small detail but easy to do.
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On October 25 2014 19:23 paper wrote:
Ideally you're using whirling to last-hit & harass at the same time. The miss chance reduces creep damage and you should come out on top. The only regen I go to lane with is a set of tangos (and maybe +salve if the lane looks annoying) which easily tides me over till bottle.
Bottle is worth considering in any lane. While PMS does reduce damage, it's not going to heal you back up, and the new rune change gives you a close rune every spawn. I'd rather have a faster bracer because the PMS gets sold way too fast.
Tip: try to HP regen (tango or bottle) while in ranged mode, then swap back to melee mode (which is what you're going to be in most of the time). It's a small detail but easy to do.
Great advice, thanks for the tips. Do you regularly go Bracer and when in your item progression do you grab it?
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Yes, I always go bracer to build drums.
I usually get 3x branch 1x tango and try to mid, but I'll offlane or safelane if my teammates take mid from me. My progression is Bottle > Phase > Bracer/Drums (with TPs thrown in there). You should definitely have bottle before the 2:00 rune.
What I don't like about my build are as follow:
1) The branches don't build into anything I want. I might look into just starting with a circlet instead.
2) Drums have been nerfed over the past few patches.
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On October 26 2014 18:02 paper wrote:
Yes, I always go bracer to build drums.
I usually get 3x branch 1x tango and try to mid, but I'll offlane or safelane if my teammates take mid from me. My progression is Bottle > Phase > Bracer/Drums (with TPs thrown in there). You should definitely have bottle before the 2:00 rune.
What I don't like about my build are as follow:
1) The branches don't build into anything I want. I might look into just starting with a circlet instead.
2) Drums have been nerfed over the past few patches.
What's wrong with getting a wand? Also why are you getting drums anyway. You don't need it at all, and it doesn't provide anything important to the hero.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Still getting bottle in safelane?
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On October 26 2014 22:01 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2014 18:02 paper wrote:
Yes, I always go bracer to build drums.
I usually get 3x branch 1x tango and try to mid, but I'll offlane or safelane if my teammates take mid from me. My progression is Bottle > Phase > Bracer/Drums (with TPs thrown in there). You should definitely have bottle before the 2:00 rune.
What I don't like about my build are as follow:
1) The branches don't build into anything I want. I might look into just starting with a circlet instead.
2) Drums have been nerfed over the past few patches. What's wrong with getting a wand? Also why are you getting drums anyway. You don't need it at all, and it doesn't provide anything important to the hero.
Troll is one of the few heroes that building Drums and S&Y is legit on considering how he is basically an all-in midgame type of hero. If he doesn't bust down your door and snowballs in the early/midgame, he fucking blows ass late game vs any decent hard carry hero.
Drums is pretty solid on Troll, grants mspd, mana, attack speed, etc. that comes at a okish price. There's not many other items you'd rather get on Troll early in the game except maybe a BKB if you can manage to squeeze it in early, but then you're gonna have mana pool issues until you are level 11+
With Drums/Aquila, you can pretty much faceroll most heroes early on and they wouldn't dare fight you. And with S&Y you'll be 522 Mspd catching scrubs down at lightning speeds. Not the best way to play Troll, but certainly not the worst way either. It's all line-up dependent on what you want to do. I mean, he's one of the few heroes where Mspd stat really does actually matter alot, since his melee form is easy as balls to kite even with BKB on.
There are extremely rare cases where you would be better off skipping Drums and rushing a core item, but that's very rare considering you pick Troll to play very aggressive early on and just smash kids into the ground. I'm not gonna say Aquila/Drums is core on him, but it's an extremely common pick-up among various top players who play Troll consistently.
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Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway.
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In my opinion Beesa and Papers build are spot on if you are aggressive early with troll which seems logical: Phaseboots+bottle+drums+S&Y.
There are alot of value items in dota2 but that doesnt mean its a best fit for a hero in the current patch. Wand & RoA in the current patch are lower tier compared to the bottle just because of the double rune spawn i think. Drums should be core in 90% of the games, unless you snowballing so hard you can skip them. Drums bridges the gap to S&Y and make you more relevant early. I like papers build and i would advice anyone to try it, its solid.
I think troll is a nice pick against void. When void jumps in and casts the chrono there is a delay in which you can easily hit whirling axes to give troll 60% misschance. Its so funny to see him miss all those attacks and then die after. Wierd we havent seen troll alot against void in promatches, felt pretty good counterpick in the trench. Seems im starting to understand the toggles and the nukes better
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Honestly think drums is one of the most overrated items in the game, especially when being built on semi-carries that can dominate the midgame. Rather let a support get it while a hero like troll gets a quicker Yasha and runs wild.
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On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway.
1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face.
2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing.
3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll.
4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items.
There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums.
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On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums.
I always think Drum recipe is too much of a gold considering what it has contribute. Keeping bracer on hand, relying on mates to slow or stun the enemy is better in my book. Drum is become a relatively expensive(let's say less efficient) item after last cost nerfs. Not saying xxx>drums but phase, bracer, RoA is a lot more easy to build and better build up than drum. Darn recipe.
Troll can be kite-able even with drums since mostly the enemy has towers by that time.(if you rekt towers then why drums). Troll needs a formidable disabler rather than a %5 AS/MS expensive paper.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums.
1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire?
2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better.
3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha.
4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will.
So, your point again?
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United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2014 21:49 Laserist wrote:
I always think Drum recipe is too much of a gold considering what it has contribute. Keeping bracer on hand, relying on mates to slow or stun the enemy is better in my book. Drum is become a relatively expensive(let's say less efficient) item after last cost nerfs. Not saying xxx>drums but phase, bracer, RoA is a lot more easy to build and better build up than drum. Darn recipe.
The recipe is actually fine, it's 875 gold for a 3/6/2 stats + aura + active, which is fine for something that saves a slot.
The dealbreaker is whether you want a Robe of the Magi, which on Troll depends on what items you have/will get because while his spells are cheap, his base mana is also shit (e.g. something like Lothar's puts significant strain on his mana if you don't have some supplementary +Int). Put differently, 1325 gold for 3/6/6 + aura + active is too much for a hero that doesn't need the mana, but for a hero that already needs at least the Robe's mana anyway, the 875 additional recipe isn't that bad.
Phase+Bracer+RoA is an additional item slot--and this hero tends to be fairly constrained for item slots as is, so the slight efficiency benefit of getting both RoA AND Bracer is pretty fleeting given how early you fill slots on this hero.
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IMO I only grab drums when I am not doing particularly well and I need SOMETHING to help me transition to a better item while I'm still participating with my team. IME grabbing a drum early vs just holding on to a bracer leads to pretty much the same level of effectiveness if I'm not behind. However it might be that I'm not abusing the timing at which I grab drums to get in the enemy's face to snowball even harder.
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Phase+Bracer+RoA means 3 slots and if you add wand and tp , yes, you become slot short. But I don't believe in drums anymore like I used to. Every time I buy a recipe, I thought I can build a more useful thing with that precious early gold.
I put bracer there for those who like the early cheap hp buildup. I rather rely on armor(troll is pure armor in melee) and RoA depending on the opponent picks. Phase/RoA/Wand is my go-to build and will give you slot efficiency and hp problems can be alleviated by club into bkb. The build also has a very solid build-up with very cheap components, ramp up very fast.
Current meta relies less early fighting rather farm into some early skirmishes so I believe the build is enough for that. I generally think 875 + 4 creeps = ogre axe > drum recipe.
I am not trying to produce counter arguments to your build, drum is solid on its own. Just try to argue an alternative, smoother build to better item transition.
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On November 04 2014 02:36 Vikeif wrote:
IMO I only grab drums when I am not doing particularly well and I need SOMETHING to help me transition to a better item while I'm still participating with my team. IME grabbing a drum early vs just holding on to a bracer leads to pretty much the same level of effectiveness if I'm not behind. However it might be that I'm not abusing the timing at which I grab drums to get in the enemy's face to snowball even harder.
My guess is that it has more to do with how passive or aggressive someone plays the hero. Like, eversince im practising papers build, i have shifted from a passive farmer until bkb (with lifesteal early) to a true warlord from lvl2 and onward. If troll is that aggressive that early and doesnt stop, the extra stats+bottleregen make it that he can sustain that level of harrasment continiously if he granted enough runes. If he would only have a bracer he would eventually be a bit less scary and./or have less chance to sustain the fighting continiously without eating consumables or tping to the fountain. If you are a bit more passive then i am then i guess a naked bracer+bottle could be suffient.
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On November 04 2014 02:36 Vikeif wrote:
IMO I only grab drums when I am not doing particularly well and I need SOMETHING to help me transition to a better item while I'm still participating with my team. IME grabbing a drum early vs just holding on to a bracer leads to pretty much the same level of effectiveness if I'm not behind. However it might be that I'm not abusing the timing at which I grab drums to get in the enemy's face to snowball even harder.
One think you should know is that if you are not doing well, Drums will not help you much. In fact it makes things worst because you just wasted precious gold on something that doesn't change a thing.
Drums is NOT a catch up item. On the contrary, Drums is an item to sustain your tempo.
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On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again?
1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control.
2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together.
3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much?
4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right?
You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked.
I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons.
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@superstartran
That was the worst attitude of replying someone even though previous post was fairly aggressive. You said the opposite but you put your MMR to the table and lost too much credibility already. 5.5K MMR doesn't make your arguments stronger.
Also bad end game =/= drums in my book. People even buy phase/RoA/blink on him in pro matches. Drum is not needed as much as you stated.
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We really need to get to the bottom of this issue. On scale from 1 to 10, how core is drums? A 6? Maybe a 7? Or would somebody even be as crazy as considering it an 8? Stay tuned as we find out.
On another note, how does being 5.5k loses someone credibility? O.o If anything it should be the opposite...
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On November 04 2014 17:49 Laserist wrote:
@superstartran
That was the worst attitude of replying someone even though previous post was fairly aggressive. You said the opposite but you put your MMR to the table and lost too much credibility already. 5.5K MMR doesn't make your arguments stronger.
Also bad end game =/= drums in my book. People even buy phase/RoA/blink on him in pro matches. Drum is not needed as much as you stated.
When you have two high level players who have varying opinions (and Beesa is a phenomenally much better player than me, I just abuse fotm heroes) say that Drums is a very good item on Troll, it's a pretty good item on him, especially when almost every top level Troll player ranging from top pros to pubstars all get it on him on a consistent basis. There's very few instances where you would get any other item on him.
Where the fuck are you gonna get your mana then if you don't get Drums? Good luck sustaining the costs of Troll's shitty ass mana pool. Any other major midgame item you get on him doesn't help his mana pool. BKB, S&Y, Blink, Lothars, etc. none of them help his mana pool in the slightest. And no, bottle nor wand are enough because Troll unlike another bracer/drum user like Kunkka uses his spells all the time due to the fact that his ult is global and has a low CD. You can sort of manage your mana as someone like Kunkka or Sven without the Drums, as Troll it's pretty unbearable.
Drums gives you literally every single stat you could ask for for 1 slot. It is by far not the most gold efficient item, but the efficiency of the item isn't really that important when you need slot efficiency more than gold efficiency, since Troll is a tempo snowball type of hero. He should be rolling in the money from winning early game fights, pushing towers, and winning his lane handily.
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Top trollplayers on dotabuff nowadays build less cheap statitems then they used too. Its true, everyone can look it up. But, i can tell you that papers core itembuild works reallly well and is based on games from top trollplayers that do build drums.
Pure damage items and rushing a bkb is less forgiving when you make slight mistakes and i think that could be a good answer. If your not a toptier player itemising greedy can be costly.
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On November 04 2014 21:25 govie wrote:
Top trollplayers on dotabuff nowadays build less cheap statitems then they used too. Its true, everyone can look it up. But, i can tell you that papers core itembuild works reallly well and is based on games from top trollplayers that do build drums.
Pure damage items and rushing a bkb is less forgiving when you make slight mistakes and i think that could be a good answer. If your not a toptier player itemising greedy can be costly.
Top 2 troll players in dotabuff(shredder & Noctis) didn't built any drum in last 2 pages of games. Phase, Vlads(or HoTD), S&Y, BKB all day long.
Just saying.
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On November 04 2014 21:54 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 21:25 govie wrote:
Top trollplayers on dotabuff nowadays build less cheap statitems then they used too. Its true, everyone can look it up. But, i can tell you that papers core itembuild works reallly well and is based on games from top trollplayers that do build drums.
Pure damage items and rushing a bkb is less forgiving when you make slight mistakes and i think that could be a good answer. If your not a toptier player itemising greedy can be costly. Top 2 troll players in dotabuff(shredder & Noctis) didn't built any drum in last 2 pages of games. Phase, Vlads(or HoTD), S&Y, BKB all day long. Just saying.
They both came in the top 2 just last week and they even skip S&Y alot. Before that beesa was the man for a very very long time. Im quite sure that if people itemise as greedy as these two do, trolls winrate will drop considerably, it takes skill to execute a melee troll with only 2 grams of EHP.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On November 04 2014 16:04 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? 1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control. 2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together. 3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much? 4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right? You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked. I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons.
1) Thank god in my trench tier everytime i see a troll he ends up laning against viper/razor with roaming bane-potm/*insert another pretty-good-ganking duo in trenchtier*. Yeah, good luck smashing that sort of lane.
2) Every single stat you can possibly think of except of stat called: useful. Yeah, obviously 20 passive ms with active giving another 40 on top is pretty damn good (Except the part where you don't need to waste 1.8k gold yourself to get it). But +9 int +9 str and +9 agi (lol, that's actually terrible low amount of it, when you consider that your midgame consists of axes and some more axes) is at most situational when there is like obvious source of better HP/mp pool item.
3) Like point booster. Like random item that has both better perspectives (ask FATA's item build, even tho using pros item builds is really bad argument) and is more cost efficient considering your right clicks at this point are completely RoA-phase defined(that's a fuckton of damage tbh). Getting yasha on top of phase easily gives you 504 with phase, 440 without. Considering ranged slow you can have by shortly cutting your ms by ~55-65, your only kiting problem will arise when opponent has stuns or viper level of slows, aka drum would be useless anyways.
4) Yes, also, naked yasha gives you more dps when drum active, if you ever did the math on the subject before throwing around random bs.
And yes, i am just noob that just applied logic and got confused on how the fuck a hero with built-in bash, best attack speed steroid in the game by real far (ult if you got confused) and insane base MS (about as fast/faster than lvl3 grow tiny with same items) + ranged mode has problems in lategame as long as he is not the sole core against whatever ultra-hard-carry you want to throw in.
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Not trying to argue or anything (I have no opinion - just trying to learn) but the first link has 3 games with drums on the first page alone. That said, he ends up losing all 3 games. The second guy also has a few on the first page as well.
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Whatever you want i guess. I stated drums and even S&Y is build less nowadays and suddenly you are agruing that thats true....
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United States47024 Posts
Welp. that spun out of control fast.
On November 04 2014 02:48 Laserist wrote:
Phase+Bracer+RoA means 3 slots and if you add wand and tp , yes, you become slot short. But I don't believe in drums anymore like I used to. Every time I buy a recipe, I thought I can build a more useful thing with that precious early gold.
I put bracer there for those who like the early cheap hp buildup. I rather rely on armor(troll is pure armor in melee) and RoA depending on the opponent picks. Phase/RoA/Wand is my go-to build and will give you slot efficiency and hp problems can be alleviated by club into bkb. The build also has a very solid build-up with very cheap components, ramp up very fast.
Current meta relies less early fighting rather farm into some early skirmishes so I believe the build is enough for that. I generally think 875 + 4 creeps = ogre axe > drum recipe.
I am not trying to produce counter arguments to your build, drum is solid on its own. Just try to argue an alternative, smoother build to better item transition.
My original post wasn't to try and affirm the value of Drums, only to clarify what you're getting and how to view the item. I see a lot of "the recipe isn't good enough". The recipe for Drums is fine. You get comparable self-stats to a Wraith Band, minor team benefit+active at the cost of 875 gold and no item slots. That's *good*. That's not what makes Drums bad in the times you don't want it.
The limiting factor, as I mentioned, is actually the Robe of the Magi, and whether the hero wants to make that investment into their mana (and if they have alternatives that they'd be willing to commit to). The Robe is, and always has been, Drums' weakest component, it's just that the recipe and Bracer used to be strong enough items that you could largely ignore the inefficiency of the Robe because they made up for it. Evaluated purely on it's own value, the recipe is fine. It's not ridiculous enough to carry the Robe even on heroes that don't really want it anymore, but the recipe is still strong for its cost.
For Troll, he doesn't outright need Drums' mana every time. Whether he does depends on what other items he's gotten (e.g. a mid Troll with Bottle has less need for the mana), and what else he plans on getting (e.g. Beesa's Drums+Lothar's games).
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It depends on how you play Troll. If you are going dual offensive lane, drums is nice because you can pick up a bracer and a RoA and have really solid stats (especially if you are already ahead in lane with a kill or two or 5), and can continue that solid build up of superior stats wiht a drums. Also, if you are going dual offensive lane, chances are you will be team fighting their safe lane at some point early (around 10 mins), and being able to pop a drums charge when you are ahead can really turn the tide of a fight, or stop a few extra deaths from happening.
If you are going some kind of safelane or mid troll, then yes other items are fine, and you can afford to go greedier builds that have much more greedy build ups.
Half of the reason you go drums is for the aggressive build up it allows you and the aggressive tempo it is supposed to allow. Stop blindly following build orders and start UNDERSTANDING why an item is good.
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On November 04 2014 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 16:04 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? 1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control. 2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together. 3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much? 4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right? You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked. I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons. 1) Thank god in my trench tier everytime i see a troll he ends up laning against viper/razor with roaming bane-potm/*insert another pretty-good-ganking duo in trenchtier*. Yeah, good luck smashing that sort of lane. 2) Every single stat you can possibly think of except of stat called: useful. Yeah, obviously 20 passive ms with active giving another 40 on top is pretty damn good (Except the part where you don't need to waste 1.8k gold yourself to get it). But +9 int +9 str and +9 agi (lol, that's actually terrible low amount of it, when you consider that your midgame consists of axes and some more axes) is at most situational when there is like obvious source of better HP/mp pool item. 3) Like point booster. Like random item that has both better perspectives (ask FATA's item build, even tho using pros item builds is really bad argument) and is more cost efficient considering your right clicks at this point are completely RoA-phase defined(that's a fuckton of damage tbh). Getting yasha on top of phase easily gives you 504 with phase, 440 without. Considering ranged slow you can have by shortly cutting your ms by ~55-65, your only kiting problem will arise when opponent has stuns or viper level of slows, aka drum would be useless anyways. 4) Yes, also, naked yasha gives you more dps when drum active, if you ever did the math on the subject before throwing around random bs. And yes, i am just noob that just applied logic and got confused on how the fuck a hero with built-in bash, best attack speed steroid in the game by real far (ult if you got confused) and insane base MS (about as fast/faster than lvl3 grow tiny with same items) + ranged mode has problems in lategame as long as he is not the sole core against whatever ultra-hard-carry you want to throw in.
1) Strawman again. You're in trench tier, you should facing scrub Pudges not 6k players trying to make money by duo que stacking/smurfing and raising MMR on accounts.
2) Those stats for 1 item slot is extremely good, especially when you are trying to pressure and take towers early.
3) Good luck managing your mana with a Mek without mana. Fata's build only works when you have a team that can abuse the early Mek and Troll ult, otherwise it's not very good in pubs at all. Pointbooster is pretty shitty on a hero like Troll, it's good on a hero like Zeus who needs both Mana/HP extremely badly. Troll is more worried about MSPD so that people don't kite him for days.
4) Troll Warlord sucks dick late game compared to most true hard carries. He has no way to instantly move on the field, has no defensive scaling abilities, and has to be literally riding someone's dick the entire time to do damage. Stop theorycrafting DPS when his true effective DPS is way lower than someone like Spectre or TB late game.
Try again 3k trench tier.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On November 05 2014 21:34 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 04 2014 16:04 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? 1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control. 2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together. 3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much? 4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right? You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked. I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons. 1) Thank god in my trench tier everytime i see a troll he ends up laning against viper/razor with roaming bane-potm/*insert another pretty-good-ganking duo in trenchtier*. Yeah, good luck smashing that sort of lane. 2) Every single stat you can possibly think of except of stat called: useful. Yeah, obviously 20 passive ms with active giving another 40 on top is pretty damn good (Except the part where you don't need to waste 1.8k gold yourself to get it). But +9 int +9 str and +9 agi (lol, that's actually terrible low amount of it, when you consider that your midgame consists of axes and some more axes) is at most situational when there is like obvious source of better HP/mp pool item. 3) Like point booster. Like random item that has both better perspectives (ask FATA's item build, even tho using pros item builds is really bad argument) and is more cost efficient considering your right clicks at this point are completely RoA-phase defined(that's a fuckton of damage tbh). Getting yasha on top of phase easily gives you 504 with phase, 440 without. Considering ranged slow you can have by shortly cutting your ms by ~55-65, your only kiting problem will arise when opponent has stuns or viper level of slows, aka drum would be useless anyways. 4) Yes, also, naked yasha gives you more dps when drum active, if you ever did the math on the subject before throwing around random bs. And yes, i am just noob that just applied logic and got confused on how the fuck a hero with built-in bash, best attack speed steroid in the game by real far (ult if you got confused) and insane base MS (about as fast/faster than lvl3 grow tiny with same items) + ranged mode has problems in lategame as long as he is not the sole core against whatever ultra-hard-carry you want to throw in. 1) Strawman again. You're in trench tier, you should facing scrub Pudges not 6k players trying to make money by duo que stacking/smurfing and raising MMR on accounts. 2) Those stats for 1 item slot is extremely good, especially when you are trying to pressure and take towers early. 3) Good luck managing your mana with a Mek without mana. Fata's build only works when you have a team that can abuse the early Mek and Troll ult, otherwise it's not very good in pubs at all. Pointbooster is pretty shitty on a hero like Troll, it's good on a hero like Zeus who needs both Mana/HP extremely badly. Troll is more worried about MSPD so that people don't kite him for days. 4) Troll Warlord sucks dick late game compared to most true hard carries. He has no way to instantly move on the field, has no defensive scaling abilities, and has to be literally riding someone's dick the entire time to do damage. Stop theorycrafting DPS when his true effective DPS is way lower than someone like Spectre or TB late game. Try again 3k trench tier.
1) That's unranked trench tier. Ranked one is perfectly described by 2nd part of your sentence.
2) Won't argue with it, since that's not the question.
3) Fata's build after mek nerf is hotd-bkb-skadi, that's first and foremost. Next, when you are kited for days on a hero like trll with phase and yasha, MS is not your concern 90% of the time, lack of initiation, existence of stuns (reminder: you spent 900-1300 gold on delaying bkb as a tradeoff for minor stat boost and MS active) and force staves/ghosts. Drums only solve the part with force staves, except the part where drum on troll comes like whole 7-10 minutes before force on support. Preemptively solving problem is not solving it.
4) Troll Warlord is not 4p1 carry, you stating anything new, Also, he has no way to instantly move on the field, just like medusa, does not have to ride anyeone's dick to actually do fuckton of damage unlike aforementioned medusa. And no, i don't theorycraft dps, i theorycraft damage that hero with 10 second bkb (6th slot RFO after skadi, satanic, bkb, mkb, fuck what you think), 400+ MS and his ult can do.
Also, you are off by 1k on my trench tier measurement. I'll leave to you to flip the coin and guess on what side that 1k difference lies.
So in nutshell: Drum is situational at best item that is highly overrated after all the nerfs.
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What a silly flame war. At least stop quoting eachother and use @ or something God damn it's an eye sore.
Just watching this, laughing hard at the jungling Sandking being shut down by you and Earth Spirit/Kaolin.
That random gold flavor OoV seemed pretty good on top of your MS and slow. Would you ever get it if you didn't random and under what conditions?
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On November 06 2014 04:37 Surprise.820 wrote:What a silly flame war. At least stop quoting eachother and use @ or something God damn it's an eye sore. Just watching this, laughing hard at the jungling Sandking being shut down by you and Earth Spirit/Kaolin. That random gold flavor OoV seemed pretty good on top of your MS and slow. Would you ever get it if you didn't random and under what conditions?
if i ever feel like oov will help me get a kill at lvl 2-3 i will buy it from sideshop
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On November 06 2014 03:59 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2014 21:34 superstartran wrote:On November 04 2014 22:03 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 04 2014 16:04 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 22:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote:On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote:
Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? 1) Then you failed as Troll because you should smash your lane like 9 out of 10 times, creating an opportunity for you to map control through rune control. 2) Drums is worth it to buy because it gives you every single stat you could possibly think of for one slot. It's not the most gold efficient item, but when paired with Aquila/Phase you basically cannot lose a single early game fight with those three items paired together. 3) What kind of shitty argument is this, who builds a pointbooster on Troll Warlord randomly like this. Strawman much? 4) Drums has extra MSPD component, comes out faster, is cheaper, and has an activatable that makes you faster than BKB. Oh, did I mention when you pop the active, you also do more damage then you would with a naked Yasha/RoA? Yeah. Shitty inefficient item right? You're talking to someone who plays Troll Warlord at a 5.5k level. Beesa plays at a 6k level with Troll. We both agree that Drums isn't exactly 'core' but it's bought so often you might as well consider it core. There are very few and rare instances you would be better off rushing a big item over Drums. If you're playing Troll to farm, you're playing the hero straight up wrong. The hero is just too good in small skirmishes/teamfights with blinding axes that you'd be silly to try and farm on this hero, especially with how much damage his kit does early in the game. And seriously, his scaling is absolute garbage outside of attack speed, because unlike other carries, he has no true form of reliable survivability late game, which means if you end up in a scenario where you have to fight Spectre, Void, TB, Dusa, etc. late game you're probably fucked. I'm not here to spout 'my MMR is higher than yours blah blah blah' type of argument, but it's pretty blatant that some of you have zero clue on how to play the hero. If you're not fucking up the opposing team early as Troll Warlord and pushing towers constantly, you're totally playing the hero wrong. He's absolute ass endgame because of various reasons. 1) Thank god in my trench tier everytime i see a troll he ends up laning against viper/razor with roaming bane-potm/*insert another pretty-good-ganking duo in trenchtier*. Yeah, good luck smashing that sort of lane. 2) Every single stat you can possibly think of except of stat called: useful. Yeah, obviously 20 passive ms with active giving another 40 on top is pretty damn good (Except the part where you don't need to waste 1.8k gold yourself to get it). But +9 int +9 str and +9 agi (lol, that's actually terrible low amount of it, when you consider that your midgame consists of axes and some more axes) is at most situational when there is like obvious source of better HP/mp pool item. 3) Like point booster. Like random item that has both better perspectives (ask FATA's item build, even tho using pros item builds is really bad argument) and is more cost efficient considering your right clicks at this point are completely RoA-phase defined(that's a fuckton of damage tbh). Getting yasha on top of phase easily gives you 504 with phase, 440 without. Considering ranged slow you can have by shortly cutting your ms by ~55-65, your only kiting problem will arise when opponent has stuns or viper level of slows, aka drum would be useless anyways. 4) Yes, also, naked yasha gives you more dps when drum active, if you ever did the math on the subject before throwing around random bs. And yes, i am just noob that just applied logic and got confused on how the fuck a hero with built-in bash, best attack speed steroid in the game by real far (ult if you got confused) and insane base MS (about as fast/faster than lvl3 grow tiny with same items) + ranged mode has problems in lategame as long as he is not the sole core against whatever ultra-hard-carry you want to throw in. 1) Strawman again. You're in trench tier, you should facing scrub Pudges not 6k players trying to make money by duo que stacking/smurfing and raising MMR on accounts. 2) Those stats for 1 item slot is extremely good, especially when you are trying to pressure and take towers early. 3) Good luck managing your mana with a Mek without mana. Fata's build only works when you have a team that can abuse the early Mek and Troll ult, otherwise it's not very good in pubs at all. Pointbooster is pretty shitty on a hero like Troll, it's good on a hero like Zeus who needs both Mana/HP extremely badly. Troll is more worried about MSPD so that people don't kite him for days. 4) Troll Warlord sucks dick late game compared to most true hard carries. He has no way to instantly move on the field, has no defensive scaling abilities, and has to be literally riding someone's dick the entire time to do damage. Stop theorycrafting DPS when his true effective DPS is way lower than someone like Spectre or TB late game. Try again 3k trench tier. 1) That's unranked trench tier. Ranked one is perfectly described by 2nd part of your sentence. 2) Won't argue with it, since that's not the question. 3) Fata's build after mek nerf is hotd-bkb-skadi, that's first and foremost. Next, when you are kited for days on a hero like trll with phase and yasha, MS is not your concern 90% of the time, lack of initiation, existence of stuns (reminder: you spent 900-1300 gold on delaying bkb as a tradeoff for minor stat boost and MS active) and force staves/ghosts. Drums only solve the part with force staves, except the part where drum on troll comes like whole 7-10 minutes before force on support. Preemptively solving problem is not solving it. 4) Troll Warlord is not 4p1 carry, you stating anything new, Also, he has no way to instantly move on the field, just like medusa, does not have to ride anyeone's dick to actually do fuckton of damage unlike aforementioned medusa. And no, i don't theorycraft dps, i theorycraft damage that hero with 10 second bkb (6th slot RFO after skadi, satanic, bkb, mkb, fuck what you think), 400+ MS and his ult can do. Also, you are off by 1k on my trench tier measurement. I'll leave to you to flip the coin and guess on what side that 1k difference lies. So in nutshell: Drum is situational at best item that is highly overrated after all the nerfs.
Drums is a highly overrated item on heroes that don't need mana early on. Drums is not overrated on heroes like Sven, CK, Troll Warlord, etc. all who can use every single stat efficiently.
Troll still fucking blows as a late game carry because he can only do damage to one hero at a time, has no way of safely base sieging, and has no innate defensive abilities that are reliable late game.
Medusa late game is totally different from Troll Warlord late game, stop with this nonsense. Medusa is basically unkillable 6 slotted without blowing every single spell possible on her, that's clearly not the case with Troll Warlord. Not to mention Medusa is a legitimate ranged hero that can hit everything in an AoE, so though she doesn't do as much single target damage as Troll Warlord, overall she's doing much more effective damage in a teamfight.
Ok, so you're saying you're 2k now? Because that's clearly what it sounds like.
BTW, Fata hasn't played troll for like 2 months, and the last time he played him he went full defensive items with Manta/BKB.
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Fata did play more than 1 game of torll during the last 2 weeks and he did only go mek in 1 of them iirc.
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I think a drum on troll is like a drum on capt. "obvious" kunka or ember spirit.They can create, harras and dive to deep just a tad bit more. If you dont need the stats to accomplish the same shit or are snowballing so hard that you can skip it, then simply do so.
BUT if you are trenchtier like me, i GARANTEE that 8 out of 10 trolls suck without statitem backbone (like i do). So, papers build is legit and it works well for me in duallane AP pubs and paper on any position. If you suck and need to learn troll, i think phase+bottle+drum+yasha as a core itemsetup is really good and alot more stable then those glascannon builds.
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i think meka is pretty awful on troll, especially after 6.82....
pros are somehow fixated on buying meka on cores for w.e reason
out of all the heroes troll is prolly the one that drums is most core on...
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On November 07 2014 00:30 ChunderBoy wrote:
i think meka is pretty awful on troll, especially after 6.82....
pros are somehow fixated on buying meka on cores for w.e reason
Well, it was pretty important in deathball nigh-allin push strats (much moreso for competitive games), and cores could pick them up much more quickly. But yeah you don't really have mana for mek on troll anymore.
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SoCal8908 Posts
well, if you look at a core like viper, mek makes him almost invincible in the early game and it helps your team as a whole for any early aggression AND he can farm it really easily.
I guess that's the same concept behind troll, but I agree..i don't see a reason to not grab drums over mek on this hero.
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On November 07 2014 03:37 BluemoonSC wrote:
well, if you look at a core like viper, mek makes him almost invincible in the early game and it helps your team as a whole for any early aggression AND he can farm it really easily.
I guess that's the same concept behind troll, but I agree..i don't see a reason to not grab drums over mek on this hero.
Troll has much more severe mana problems (early on) than Viper does, however. Good vipers only need a poison attack every few seconds and 125/175/225 mana to ult, and the rest can be used for mek. Troll has much shorter CD's to work with, so it hurts him quite a bit more.
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troll's also as mentioned the literal stupidest (lowest int) hero in dota
as in, you only think that viper's 15 + 1.8int/level is bad
until you realise troll is 13 + 1int/level
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Are my calculations correct? :
Troll lvl16 with phase+bottle+mek and no statitems has a manapool = 390+(5*13)= 455 manapool
Assumption: Spellusage during a fight should be 4 nukes+ult+mek = 4*50+75+225 = 500 manapool
The bottle has no influence during fights only inbetween farm/fights, using the mek drains 50% of trolls manapool without any extra int-items.
E:updated it when u began typing
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mek = 5 all stats
wand if u get it is 3 more. even if u dont a full stick is 150 mana
u can cast everything with a few stick charges but its still ass
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United States47024 Posts
The Viper comparison is also bad because the two heroes fight with very different mindsets. Viper's a frontline core who expects to tank damage and fundamentally gets damage output in drawn out fights because of Nethertoxin's damage means you naturally kill things in long scrappy fights once everyone's below half HP, so a first item like Meka is good because it doesn't contribute DPS but draws out fights longer, which is inherently good for how Viper plays.
Troll doesn't play that way. His mana gates him in long, drawn-out fights, and his ability-based damage comes in the first 7 seconds of the fight until you have damage items and higher levels.
EDIT: Also Mek makes Viper "invincible" because of Corrosive Skin, which limits the effectiveness of using spells to kill him, so he really just needs to buffer HP and armor. Troll is basically the exact opposite cuz melee Whirling Axes gives miss chance and Troll gets good armor from Agility + early game free armor from Berserker's Rage, but lacks survivability against spells.
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SoCal8908 Posts
lol chill out everyone, that's why I said "I guess that's their line of reasoning."
I do not agree with getting mek on troll.
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Well I mean traditionally you look at Mek like: someone's gotta make it fast so we can death ball / counter their deathball. I think that's all there is to it regardless of hero.
Troll is very hard to play from behind with, I find. He is so tempo based
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On November 08 2014 01:05 ahw wrote:
Well I mean traditionally you look at Mek like: someone's gotta make it fast so we can death ball / counter their deathball. I think that's all there is to it regardless of hero.
Troll is very hard to play from behind with, I find. He is so tempo based
his ult is still nice, provided you have other right clickers on your team
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so there isn't much talk about non-item builds in this thread yet. here are some basic tricks that help a lot..
after a few levels, you've got a big movespeed advantage on everybody. practice toggling q while chasing enemies -- you run faster in melee, toggle to range to throw an attack, toggle back to melee to chase, etc.
You can kite / run away the same way. If you intentionally leave ranged form on when leaving a team fight, you can switch to melee and phase and get like 80 bonus MS. This is useful to draw the team to you and make them think they can chase you.
actively toggle your Q when being auto attacked. Usually for the first few levels you use ranged to lh/deny/harass, switch to melee when you are being hit by a ranged auto attack for the bonus armor.
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Don't forget to abuse lower HP pool by using tango/salve/bottle/hpregen in ranged form. Salves are worth around 500hp of healing after the full duration and you switch back to melee form.
Maximising your regeneration with any aggressive hero is going to help you big time in lane especially with such a bullying hero.
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On November 09 2014 18:41 ahw wrote:
so there isn't much talk about non-item builds in this thread yet. here are some basic tricks that help a lot..
after a few levels, you've got a big movespeed advantage on everybody. practice toggling q while chasing enemies -- you run faster in melee, toggle to range to throw an attack, toggle back to melee to chase, etc.
You can kite / run away the same way. If you intentionally leave ranged form on when leaving a team fight, you can switch to melee and phase and get like 80 bonus MS. This is useful to draw the team to you and make them think they can chase you.
actively toggle your Q when being auto attacked. Usually for the first few levels you use ranged to lh/deny/harass, switch to melee when you are being hit by a ranged auto attack for the bonus armor.
In regards to this, making sure you time your phase charges are really important for Troll. You have a considerably higher MS in Melee, so the idea is you want to pop your phase while you are in melee form. So if you are chasing someone, you want to throw ranged whirling axes, go into melee, phase, start right clicking, ult, whatever. Or make sure you pop your phase after drums charges while in melee etc. Its actually pretty important to time that properly.
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Wait, phase counts drum-charge speed? I didn't know that.
Actually now that I think about it, I have no idea how ms stacking works at all. I guess I assumed all the % modifiers only counted base and flat ms from boots/euls etc
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Iirc if you phase before drums, the drums override the phasespeed and you go slower haha, but if you activate the phaseboots after the drums then both can be added on top of eachother.
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Windwalk type spells/items cancel phase as well.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 11 2014 07:02 govie wrote:
Iirc if you phase before drums, the drums override the phasespeed and you go slower haha, but if you activate the phaseboots after the drums then both can be added on top of eachother.
This. Phase Boots' MS buff is canceled by activating other items or using skills because it is coded as a Wind Walk with longer fade time than duration.
% MS buffs only multiply base + flat MS (boots, Eul's, etc). They don't multiply each other.
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Oh right he's just talking about not cancelling phase. Nevermind then.
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Is this hero fixed now? I mean the fervor stack issue.
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On December 16 2014 21:53 Laserist wrote:
Is this hero fixed now? I mean the fervor stack issue.
with 6.83 shud be
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On December 16 2014 21:58 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2014 21:53 Laserist wrote:
Is this hero fixed now? I mean the fervor stack issue. with 6.83 shud be
I am living in a dream. It took so long for them to fix this very crucial issue for my beloved troll. I can pick you every game from now on.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Troll Warlord
Fixed Fervor stack count being 1 stack too slow
ye boi
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I love troll, he has such a fun laning phase where you can generally just destroy whoever is against you. You just go tanky for the first items with RoP, stout, tango to start. Get that pms, basilus, and boots and just with that you are nuts. Tons of little tricks to maximize the hero, like switching to ranged form during hp regen, or switching to ranged form for the slow, then right back to melee.
I've been pretty picky about when I pick em though, generally against a weak safelane like spec ill pick troll and grab a support to duo. The few times I do this with a void in my safelane its just too strong. You just hit ult whenever chrono goes up and the void can kill anyone that's not ogre
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That value point in fervor totally legit now.
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I wonder how big a buff the IAS cap increase is for this hero actually
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Well, 4 stacks of fervor maxed + troll ult is 316 AS, you have 65 AS at level 16 with stats, and so its not inconceivable to be breaking the 400 AS barrier, but not that big of a deal IMO.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On December 17 2014 03:34 Comeh wrote:
Well, 4 stacks of fervor maxed + troll ult is 316 AS, you have 65 AS at level 16 with stats, and so its not inconceivable to be breaking the 400 AS barrier, but not that big of a deal IMO.
more attacks more bashes
more bashes more rage
more rage more gg
I like it.
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On December 17 2014 03:34 Comeh wrote:
Well, 4 stacks of fervor maxed + troll ult is 316 AS, you have 65 AS at level 16 with stats, and so its not inconceivable to be breaking the 400 AS barrier, but not that big of a deal IMO.
What 400 AS barrier is this? Old barrier was 500 AS.
New barriers are 600 AS, +500 AS or 500 IAS.
edit: 500 IAS not 500% IAS
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err 400 IAS (increased attackspeed) barrier or just 500 AS barrier its the same thing.. 10 yo me understood mechanics better than u http://www.playdota.com/mechanics/attackspeed
i think this new 600 attack speed barrier is only ever applicable to wr/ursa/troll's team add a beastmaster to trolls team too maybe or bloodlust/alacrity/wisp tether
when u talk about AS just do conversions into 1.7 bat coz thats how AS is defined
1.7 bat means if u had exactly 0 IAS and 0 agi it wud take u 1.7seconds to hit a guy
basically every hero has 100 starting AS (with 0 agi) and every agi adds 1 AS
dota2 is a bit weird coz it does bat conversion in attackspeed metric for u when u change bat from like range to melee (i dont think it shud do this) so ranged troll is gonna have 480 AS which is same as 380 IAS with fervor/ulti
he has 490 AS written in dota2 when he''s melee coz less bat for w.e reason...
also troll always more than broke the attackspeed barrier even with 0 items
it used to only do calculations for 1.7 bat in early beta but then valve messed it up
500 to 600 barrier simply means any hero that can get there will have 20% more dps/attacks than he did before
so theoretically slark can cap to 352 passive stacks now he can get 20% more which is 423
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yo beesa i have nothing but mad respect calm down bro, take a chill pill. as you can see at the end it says +500 AS or 500 IAS (should not have had a % there). i'd never doubt you lol. i misunderstood him, that's all.
all i wanted to do was list out pretty much all the various naming conventions people use. [AS] or [+AS] or [IAS]. I could care less which you use or go by cause you know pretty much all there is to know, but people use all sorts of silly stuff, i wanted to list them all and for no good reason i suppose, whoops.
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On December 17 2014 18:39 deadmau wrote:
yo beesa i have nothing bad mad respect calm down bro, take a chill pill. as you can see at the end it says +500 AS or 500 IAS (should not have had a % there). i'd never doubt you lol. i misunderstood him, that's all.
all i wanted to do was list out pretty much all the various naming conventions people use. [AS] or [+AS] or [IAS]. I could care less which you use or go by cause you know pretty much all there is to know, but people use all sorts of silly stuff, i wanted to list them all and for no good reason i suppose, whoops.
Pretty sure he's referring to my post, which to be fair I haven't read anything on AS for a long time and I don't retain that information for more than 2 hours. Completely forgot about the 100 starting attack speed so yeah this change will actually impact him quite a lot because of his lower BAT at higher levels (and with wisp, which we've seen ab it of).
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On December 18 2014 01:26 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 18:39 deadmau wrote:
yo beesa i have nothing bad mad respect calm down bro, take a chill pill. as you can see at the end it says +500 AS or 500 IAS (should not have had a % there). i'd never doubt you lol. i misunderstood him, that's all.
all i wanted to do was list out pretty much all the various naming conventions people use. [AS] or [+AS] or [IAS]. I could care less which you use or go by cause you know pretty much all there is to know, but people use all sorts of silly stuff, i wanted to list them all and for no good reason i suppose, whoops. Pretty sure he's referring to my post, which to be fair I haven't read anything on AS for a long time and I don't retain that information for more than 2 hours. Completely forgot about the 100 starting attack speed so yeah this change will actually impact him quite a lot because of his lower BAT at higher levels (and with wisp, which we've seen ab it of).
i was lol
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On December 18 2014 01:37 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 01:26 Comeh wrote:On December 17 2014 18:39 deadmau wrote:
yo beesa i have nothing bad mad respect calm down bro, take a chill pill. as you can see at the end it says +500 AS or 500 IAS (should not have had a % there). i'd never doubt you lol. i misunderstood him, that's all.
all i wanted to do was list out pretty much all the various naming conventions people use. [AS] or [+AS] or [IAS]. I could care less which you use or go by cause you know pretty much all there is to know, but people use all sorts of silly stuff, i wanted to list them all and for no good reason i suppose, whoops. Pretty sure he's referring to my post, which to be fair I haven't read anything on AS for a long time and I don't retain that information for more than 2 hours. Completely forgot about the 100 starting attack speed so yeah this change will actually impact him quite a lot because of his lower BAT at higher levels (and with wisp, which we've seen ab it of). i was lol
Hey, wasn't that far off, just forgot about the 100 base AS which is obviously a big deal.
Though dota would be really hilarious if they removed that and everyone started attacking with 20 AS, everyone just attacking like they are attacking an enchantress as Tiny
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With the new patch coming wasnt sure if it was a typo or not. I suspected it was only the base 100 AS that he neglected lol, my bad beesa, i feel like a tard now.
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THE STREAK LIVES ON!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UWZfWWX.png)
you can watch one of the games from the other side here lmao
http://www.twitch.tv/meepodota/b/605124892
the deso and eagle are trolly purchases, but ive been picking up blink a LOT :D the rust is real tho after the holiday break
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I have used your "guide/build" alot as a mediocre troll-ist and since then troll is my go to mid with 58% winrate in ap, so thanks!
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COOL!
I've been mostly offlaning him lately and skipping the hotd/bkb in favor of blink dagger. Also there is a drastic reduction in the number of PAs so I don't have to MKB anymore which is nice :3
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Troll has seen a pretty massive increase in pick rate at my MMR at least. And unlike some other fotm-picks this one seems to do really well. His ulti is actually so good. Pushing, teamfighting, roshing, ganking, you name it. Amazing utility. And a troll team with 2-3 rightclicker will just deal stupid amounts of damage during those secs. Seeing an axe die in ~2sec during +40 armor call was pretty funny.
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anyone ever found a nice bashdraft with troll, slardar and spirit breaker?
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I think I have found two bugs while playing troll.
1 - Troll can miss uphill in melee form;
2 - Using phase and then changing stance from melee to ranged or vice versa cancels the phase effect prematurely.
Anyone know how to search if these are already known bugs or something?
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On January 01 2015 09:49 Jotoco wrote:
I think I have found two bugs while playing troll.
1 - Troll can miss uphill in melee form;
2 - Using phase and then changing stance from melee to ranged or vice versa cancels the phase effect prematurely.
Anyone know how to search if these are already known bugs or something?
any action cancel phase, its not a bug
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On January 01 2015 10:08 Churrass wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2015 09:49 Jotoco wrote:
I think I have found two bugs while playing troll.
1 - Troll can miss uphill in melee form;
2 - Using phase and then changing stance from melee to ranged or vice versa cancels the phase effect prematurely.
Anyone know how to search if these are already known bugs or something? any action cancel phase, its not a bug
I though this was a "non-action"... And what about the uphill miss chance while melee?
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You probably were in the midst of switching because you can't miss uphill while in melee form--just tested it.
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Was glancing through the troll dotabuff ranking page and discovered I made top 100! How exciting for being an average player :3
but lost it soon after hehe
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I started experimenting diffusal blade on troll and its incredible. You probably wanna get this after bkb and helm of dom which isnt very hard, it is a significant dps increase on him at all stage during the game especially with the increase cap on IAS.
For securing up time on my target, I have always hated items such as S&Y on Troll as although it is quite a decent mid game timing item, it quickly fall off and become both slot and cost inefficient very fast, Troll scale too well with item to waste a slot on something that provide mediocre utility, mediocre damage and mediocre tanking. I used to get skadi for reliable slow but it just provide too little damage to be worth a slot, and now with Diffusal blade you will get decently reliable slow (has a greater cast range than your attack range, but can be dispelled/does not affect magic immune target), with a much safer and useful build up.
Plus nowadays the Dispell aspect of purge has become close to mandatory now, the manaburn scale disgustingly well, in late game you will notice your opponent losing his manapool during a bash faster than vs a PL.
I really think diffusal should be acquired prior to satanic/mkb and quite frankly straight up replace S&Y as your first big item.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Yeah diffusal definitely viable with how its no longer an orb
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DDDDD:< I knew diffusal was good on troll!
Though I'm hoping to see it more in practice before trying it out myself~
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Whenever i play troll I always feel weak. i always ran out of manaa.
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My problem with diffusal is that I'd rather be working toward something bigger by the time I'd be building it, which is after blink dagger and SNY.
I see it as an alternate build if the situation calls for it, but generally seen as inferior given its cost, limited charges, and lack of +HP.
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diffusal's sub par dps (unless you have manta!), but so is sny.
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Against mana intensive opponents it might be useful. Specially with a good initiator on your side.
Troll can burn through a LOT of mana in a short time spam.
Against Medusa it is a given. But even against a tide, for example, who is nearing a refresher it should be good if you don't have anyone else to build it.
And early on it can give a lot of killing power, level 6 (and onwards) troll can burn mana so quick one might not even be able to TP after the first second or two.
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I think against tide diffusal doesnt matter, as the biggest factor will be if tide can initiate on you. if he gets a good first ravage, 2nd one will follow, unstoppable with diffusal imo..
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manta/diffusal might work pretty well. I have a hard time not building yolo racecar 15min stomp troll though. he's so good around that time near max move speed. phase drum sny mlg420
diffusal is good just because ghost scepter shuts down troll pretty hard
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Diffusal is situational.
Troll is a great diffusal hero, but he wants other things 90% of the time. Only get diffusal against certain things. VS omniknight it's great 3/4th item, same goes vs ghost scepters.
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So...is legion commander a good teammate with troll? as soon as he grab blink and use it for 1st time you start to complement him throughout the rest of the game (both duel and battle trance have relatively short CD).
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Vlads or Helm on Troll? I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts about this because I've tried it both ways and I'm not sure. I don't find myself dominating creeps with the helm all that often (and I feel I should) and vlads scales better into lategame, leaves the attack modifier open and builds off Ring of basilius which I like to have early. But I find that helm's 20 damage is very useful to have in the early game compared to Vlad's ~10, plus helm of iron will is good if having trouble in lane.
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On January 20 2015 17:36 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vlads or Helm on Troll? I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts about this because I've tried it both ways and I'm not sure. I don't find myself dominating creeps with the helm all that often (and I feel I should) and vlads scales better into lategame, leaves the attack modifier open and builds off Ring of basilius which I like to have early. But I find that helm's 20 damage is very useful to have in the early game compared to Vlad's ~10, plus helm of iron will is good if having trouble in lane.
If I wanna push fast with my team i am tending to go vlads, otherwise Hotd.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Vlads scales better? It's not like you can build HoD into a Satanic. Pretty much all of the benefits of vlads are in the form of an aura, so lategame ideally a support should be carrying it. The only attack modifier that doesn't work with HoD is desolator. Just turn your basi ring into an aquila.
imo people really overestimate the +damage aura that vlads gives. Making the assumption that your average core only has about 150 base damage lategame (which I think is actually being very liberal), vlads only gives you a paltry +22.5dmg. If we take a lvl 20 troll with phase, sny, daedalus vlads bkb and lothars, he's only doing 116-134 base damage
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On January 20 2015 18:20 Lash- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 17:36 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vlads or Helm on Troll? I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts about this because I've tried it both ways and I'm not sure. I don't find myself dominating creeps with the helm all that often (and I feel I should) and vlads scales better into lategame, leaves the attack modifier open and builds off Ring of basilius which I like to have early. But I find that helm's 20 damage is very useful to have in the early game compared to Vlad's ~10, plus helm of iron will is good if having trouble in lane. If I wanna push fast with my team i am tending to go vlads, otherwise Hotd.
this basically. so for 90% of pub purposes you're going hotd
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Dotabuff winrates seem misleading to me: hotd has a 1% lower winrate then average and vlads has a 6% above average winrate. I think alot of people go for a hotd after boots on troll, which imo is too early and messes up his winrate and this comparison.
I think the farmspeed of troll in a specific game influences which item is more efficient. if you are having a good game a hotd will soon upgrade into a satanic, else a vlads could be more efficient and should have a slightly higher impact (which could partly explain the dotabuffs winrates).
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The only reason you should get hotd on this hero early is stack hard camps to clear out, and later stack ancient camps (though this hero sucks at killing ancients pretty much).
Vlads is pretty bad unless the aura is really good for your team and you are hitting some kind of pushing timing (which you dont have to do anymore on this hero since it scales ridiculously well).
Most of the time, i'd rather time aquila / drums or S&Y into bkb. Not sure about the timing on blink, some people do that.
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So, in harder games I tend to skip SnY in favour of faster BKB and crit/mkb, so my inventory in most games consists of TP scroll, PB, Yasha, HotD, BKB and a damage item. Is it worth to upgrade to Manta, or just sell the Yasha and get something else?
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20 damage, 5 armor, always starting fights at or near max hp, and getting back another 100-250 hp from lifesteal throughout the fight is pretty worth it in general for dominator's cost of 1850. Compared with 304 max hp and +10 damage from a sange, it's comparably even or better for staying alive in fights.
Stacking with the creep is bonus, as it helps accelerate your farm into your next item. Later in the game, a satanic is really good too, so it's not like it's a wasted slot.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that entering a team fight with sny is only marginally better than coming in with yasha/dominator, and yasha/dominator sets you up better since you don't have to go back to the fountain to heal between ganks/fights. Also, safer farm in the jungle and ez roshans is always nice,
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lifesteal also lets u solo rosh
hotd is way better than vlads
it increases ur farm speed by a lot
also the creep is useful for scouting/w.e
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sange also gives u 4% movespeed and maim
both r pretty important on troll
and 300 hp is much more valuable than 5 amor and a bit of lifesteal
by the time u buy sny u usually have sub max 1k hp
and u should be full hp regardless for teamfights
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Vlads is amazing on troll, I would never go hotd.
Even the mana regeneration is great. Makes you farm faster in the jungle, especially if you don't have bottle/or are out of slots.
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On January 21 2015 04:20 Dead9 wrote:
sange also gives u 4% movespeed and maim
both r pretty important on troll
and 300 hp is much more valuable than 5 amor and a bit of lifesteal
by the time u buy sny u usually have sub max 1k hp
and u should be full hp regardless for teamfights
Sange doesn't give movespeed, that's Yasha only.
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hotd farms like 20% faster than vlads
thats not even an exaggeration u get like 100~150 extra gpm if u control a wildkin and stack/nado constantly
u can get a lot more if u micro a creep in lane but that's a lot harder
orrr if that's too hard u can just have an aura creep follow u around ...
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u get 4% for completing sny is wat he means
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sny gives 4% bonus movespeed over yasha
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On January 21 2015 06:28 Sn0_Man wrote:
u get 4% for completing sny is wat he means
isn't it 6% then lol?
10% Yasha,
16% S&Y
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oh right icefraud made sny the "16" item i forgot
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On January 21 2015 05:20 ZieInverse wrote:
Vlads is amazing on troll, I would never go hotd.
Even the mana regeneration is great. Makes you farm faster in the jungle, especially if you don't have bottle/or are out of slots.
You have it in reverse. HotD is amazing troll, and I wouldn't agree to never go Vlads but it's definitely the more niche item of the two.
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Only nice thing about vlads is you can salvage it together with a roh and dismantling Aquila, kind of useful if you are doing a dual offlane and you need to throw it together for a quick team rosh. Kind of like a recovery thing if you aren't winning the offlane
Otherwise hotd, or just skip life steal entirely for a faster SNY bkb
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I played a game with troll last night where I was completely shut down by a viper and shadow demon who would slow me down so much that I couldn't get anything done in fights. BKB did nothing, and even with SNY + drums + phase I was running slower than everybody else.
Besides not picking troll into those two, is there anything else I could have done to make myself not such a huge paperweight in fights?
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I think u just accept that u have to be in range form most of the time in order to actually hit baddies in those games. If u eat both ults every fight then u just gotta hope that ur team can own with ur ulti buffing them. Otherwise hang around the outside of fights until spells are already cast or get ur teammates to initiate or w/e. Or just try ratting.
U can also try like blink + skadi to get in and prevent them running.
Keep in mind u interact better than most shitty carries when their attackspeed is slowed cuz u have battle trance and fervor both.
I'll admit i'm a bad troll player.
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If they're blowing two ults on you that won't even kill, that's free reign for your teammates.
Or you could play around it and let your teammates eat the ults and then jump in to focus on whoever you want.
Evade when you're vulnerable, attack when you're strong.
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blink on the supports in teamfights
splitpush if u can too troll demolishes towers
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In what situations should I get blink on troll? Is it something I should get every game? I use the phase, drums, aquila and SnY build.
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EVERY GAME!
Get bottle, skip aquila and maybe even drums to get blink faster.
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On January 21 2015 15:51 paper wrote:
EVERY GAME!
Get bottle, skip aquila and maybe even drums to get blink faster.
Thanks! I'm buying bottle already, forgot to add that. So the build you recommend most of the time is bottle -> phase -> S&Y -> blink? Or yasha -> blink -> S&Y?
Trying to learn about this hero a bit more, I feel like I haven't quite understood his strengths and weaknesses. Judging from this thread the consensus seems to be something along the lines of trying to set the tempo for the game by going mid, getting some fast levels and basic items -> non-stop fighting/pushing. Is that how you see it aswell?
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I was bad on troll and didnt understand the hero. So i picked up paper's build of which the discussion starts at post 50 page 3. Just read some posts after post 50, it discusses that bkb isnt a core item on troll and how you can crush every lane every game on troll (wkirling axes), why drums can be areally good item on troll etcetc.
Original BO : Phase - Bottle - Drums - SNY/HotD - BKB/Daed/Satanic/Blink/Bfly
I think the better you get on troll, the less statitems you need to survive battles, the greedier the itempickups can be. But in you go papers original build, i garantee that you wont die alot, will win 90% of the lanes you face, have plenty of mana, have descent farm and have a winrate over 50% very fast no matter if you play him mid, in a dual- or a trilane.
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On January 21 2015 18:14 govie wrote:I was bad on troll and didnt understand the hero. So i picked up paper's build of which the discussion starts at post 50 page 3. Just read some posts after post 50, it discusses that bkb isnt a core item on troll and how you can crush every lane every game on troll (wkirling axes), why drums can be areally good item on troll etcetc. Original BO : Phase - Bottle - Drums - SNY/HotD - BKB/Daed/Satanic/Blink/Bfly I think the better you get on troll, the less statitems you need to survive battles, the greedier the itempickups can be. But in you go papers original build, i garantee that you wont die alot, will win 90% of the lanes you face, have plenty of mana, have descent farm and have a winrate over 50% very fast no matter if you play him mid, in a dual- or a trilane.
Thanks for the response. I did check that post out and read a few pages in this thread and based my build and playstyle on what I read, but apparently I added the aquila from my own imagination. Maybe I should give it another read-through. What I haven't found though is an explanation of why blink is so highly regarded on troll, and how early to get it.
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Just read through the entire thread instead of the last few pages, and I didn't get this hero at all. I thought he could play like a luna or a 6.82 jug since he has fighting bonuses.
And I kept getting helm of the dominator.
Edit: I've been checking dotaflame's most recent troll stream archives, and most of them (bulldog,w3haa, lightofheaven, etc) are going phase helm of dominator. Only smash went drums. Now to be fair, none of them are troll specialists, but is dominator just better since 6.82 or are they itemizing poorly.
Pro games, looks like they're building him more as a carry, so what's best?
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I kinda dislike blink on troll too, at least not that early. Although the rationale is probably to just get in the face of the carry and bash him to death asap. I mean troll doesn't exactly need a farm advantage to do so as long as he gets the bashes and has a bkb. I think for pubs I find just straight up getting DPS items is better.
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Yeah blink is only good when you are owning already and everyone kites you instead of trying to fight. For normal games your main objectives will be farming and taking rosh, and i think lifesteal and Yasha is best for this.
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blink lets u pick one person and kill them during bkb
its really good
edit: i meant blink not rosh
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Why not just Shadowblade instead of Blink? I think both is viable but SB compliments the kind of racecar builds most Trolls lean toward anyway.
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On January 23 2015 05:35 Slardar wrote:
Why not just Shadowblade instead of Blink? I think both is viable but SB compliments the kind of racecar builds most Trolls lean toward anyway.
yeah Shadowblade better in pubs, since people hate buying detection, and also have no coordination.
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Shadowblade is awful: it has a relatively high mana cost and an easy counter.
Blink is amazing for its general mobility, chase ability, and initiation. It caters to skirmishing and dancing around battles and committing when you're stronger than the opponent. It's not just a "win more" item because you can come back with it very easily. You can't do this with sblade.
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Shadowblade is the best item in pubs.
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In AP shadowblade is great, but in CM it gets alot less efficient. The difference is truly noticable on any hero.
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On January 23 2015 12:45 paper wrote:
Shadowblade is awful: it has a relatively high mana cost and an easy counter.
Blink is amazing for its general mobility, chase ability, and initiation. It caters to skirmishing and dancing around battles and committing when you're stronger than the opponent. It's not just a "win more" item because you can come back with it very easily. You can't do this with sblade.
You're actually not gonna be using Shadowblade as an escape, but rather go up to people and bash them, like the same thing you'd do with Blink anyway.
But yes I agree with the counters, but in pubs, it's easier to pull off.
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in teamfights, blink is not specifically to get in the face of the enemy carry. its to get in the face of the enemy backline (usually supports) and fuck them up, it just so happens that some backliners are carries. all with a minimum of mana usage. its also a great gank/pressure item and we all know the other benefits of going dagger.
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Blink is very good when u jump into the backline of the enemies just use ur meele axes rightn before you jump and u will hit everyone with the dmg and miss chance, its amazing in teamfights because they wont hit anything for the first few seconds.
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lmao i'm back on the board ayyyyyyyyyy
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MJDCMlk.png)
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In my games this hero is 8-0 last 8 games with him in them. Just seems to have no weaknesses anywhere between minute 0 and however long games go. Feels like every time there a troll in the game he gets a bunch of kills in the lane and snowballs uncontrollably. Slark, PA or Jugg got nothing on this guy.
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I'm seriously hating this new pub meta with always Troll or Jugg. If you just lose a single fight which is inevitable he snowballs so damn hard the troll ultimate nets you an extra tower or an extra Rosh that you wouldn't normally get w/o Troll in the lineup.
Most success I've had was to just draft a high magic burst/kiter like QoP. Bully him around early, get Aghanims make him feel the pain.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On January 27 2015 01:36 Slardar wrote:
I'm seriously hating this new pub meta with always Troll or Jugg. If you just lose a single fight which is inevitable he snowballs so damn hard the troll ultimate nets you an extra tower or an extra Rosh that you wouldn't normally get w/o Troll in the lineup.
Most success I've had was to just draft a high magic burst/kiter like QoP. Bully him around early, get Aghanims make him feel the pain.
that's pretty much how you have to deal with him. you need to kite him and pray for no first hit bashes
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Unless he gets blink or Sblade and gets the jump and rng on you. God help you then.
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Not to mention S&Y + phase is near 522 MS, hard to kite that.
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paper, what's your typical build?
phase, sny, shadowblade?
do you get a dagger?
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On January 27 2015 06:55 danl9rm wrote:
paper, what's your typical build?
phase, sny, shadowblade?
do you get a dagger?
unless it's changed,
On December 31 2014 17:09 paper wrote:THE STREAK LIVES ON! you can watch one of the games from the other side here lmao http://www.twitch.tv/meepodota/b/605124892the deso and eagle are trolly purchases, but ive been picking up blink a LOT :D the rust is real tho after the holiday break
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I'll bottle before phase, but I end up selling it pretty fast. Sometimes I'll skip drums to get a faster blink. Lately I've been getting BKB to just counter the enemy line-up, and I need some sustain thru HotD once I sell bottle. MKB is to pre-emptively counter bfly pick-ups (so many AMs and SFs lately) and to have a +dmg item as well. If you're behind on farm, get a quelling to accelerate your CS.
Bottle > Phase > Drums/Yasha/Blink/SNY depending on the game. Maybe throw in quelling/stout/TPs/wards/dust whatever you need to win
I really should dominate creeps more to stack ancients but ancients are pretty harsh on troll without trance. I also don't like rushing HotD to solo rosh because if they catch you, you're dead and you give the enemy a free rosh.
Here are my most recent games on my main account:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/soUzvHv.png)
Blink is great vs AM because they never hit you before they blink away. Easy blink, trance, kill.
Shadow blade relies too much on the other team being retarded. Get a blink instead and buy smokes and wards with the rest of the money.
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Been having fun playing him. Mid game is troll really shines. People really underestimate the miss chance of whirling axe, so they just hit you while you laugh and wreck them.
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I've been doing a lot better with mid troll than safelane troll, seems like there's an earth spirit every time I go safe, and if I don't have backup I'm just dead.
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On January 27 2015 20:48 igotmyown wrote:
I've been doing a lot better with mid troll than safelane troll, seems like there's an earth spirit every time I go safe, and if I don't have backup I'm just dead.
You should win your lane vs. ES no problem. I don't know but i cant remember losing vs an ES in a 1v1 situation, he wont get a single last hit with his dmg unless he uses his stun/silence to lasthit some.
Ofc you have to be careful when he hits 6, but by that time you should already have an lvl and item advantage i guess.
Make sure you have enough regen to stay near full hp
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On January 27 2015 21:58 Lash- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2015 20:48 igotmyown wrote:
I've been doing a lot better with mid troll than safelane troll, seems like there's an earth spirit every time I go safe, and if I don't have backup I'm just dead. You should win your lane vs. ES no problem. I don't know but i cant remember losing vs an ES in a 1v1 situation, he wont get a single last hit with his dmg unless he uses his stun/silence to lasthit some. Ofc you have to be careful when he hits 6, but by that time you should already have an lvl and item advantage i guess. Make sure you have enough regen to stay near full hp
Laning isn't the problem, getting ganked by him is. You can just rely on max movement speed to survive most ganks, but not this guy.
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How many points in Fervor do I need to comfortably do Roshan? I usually leave Fervor at lvl 1 and do Rosh at min 15 with Helm and maybe Yasha, but I wanna do it earlier. Can I do rosh with only Helm and no other +dmg items?
Is there any item I should get earlier when playing Troll mid or do I go the same build (+ Bottle) like I would when playing him safelane?
This is the build: (Bottle if playing mid), Aquila, Phase, Helm, Yasha, BKB, Satanic/Manta/Daedalus/Skadi
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 03 2015 07:08 toemn wrote:
How many points in Fervor do I need to comfortably do Roshan? I usually leave Fervor at lvl 1 and do Rosh at min 15 with Helm and maybe Yasha, but I wanna do it earlier. Can I do rosh with only Helm and no other +dmg items?
Is there any item I should get earlier when playing Troll mid or do I go the same build (+ Bottle) like I would when playing him safelane?
This is the build: (Bottle if playing mid), Aquila, Phase, Helm, Yasha, BKB, Satanic/Manta/Daedalus/Skadi
phase+ Helm + max fervor + ult + plenty of time should be enough to solo rosh.
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I don't like to upgrade hotd so early. I usually just leave it at mask.
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It's actually a very good upgrade. You get +20 dmg, +5 armor and an useful active, if you use the dominated creep at all. If you don't then it's probably not worth it.
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On March 03 2015 16:16 robaq wrote:
It's actually a very good upgrade. You get +20 dmg, +5 armor and an useful active, if you use the dominated creep at all. If you don't then it's probably not worth it.
I think that troll's main need early on is hp. Mask is just for him to farm 24/7. Unlike gyro or Luna, he doesn't really clear stacks well. So it really depends on whether you are going to use the creep effectively.
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I'd say he is decent at clearing stacks once you get SnY, hellbear aura/frost armor and some levels. I honestly think you can't spend that 950 gold any better unless you're fighting non stop and want to get some hp like sange first (sounds bad but saved my ass quite a lot in games i went for it).
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Looking at dotabuff, everybody maxes W first, but then it's divided between maxing Q next or maxing E. Maxing Q has a higher win rate but maxing E is more common. Most of the time I max fervor second, but the bash stun of Q scales well and move speed never hurts either. On the other hand, maxing E second gets you 72 more attack speed on a target you're stuck to, and you get that attack speed faster.
How do you guys build troll? Do you always go max Q or max E first or do you decide to do one or the other in game? How do you decide?
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q is fighting u get ms
e is farming u get as (especially for rosh)
choice is urs
i'm an E maxer usually
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q is best for the 2 second bash duration!! and the move speed.
unless you will literally afk farm for the first 20 minutes, q is always better. And troll should be played aggressively in general, he isn't an afk farm hero
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I pretty much always dual offlane troll, so I go for q. I would say that in most cases going for q first is better. The increased kill potential will most likely always pay off, since you should use the fact that troll is a really strong laner and try to kill whoever you are up against as often as possible. And since you also get movespeed from q it will also increase your farm speed by a little bit. Only time I would go e first is if I am not laning against anyone at all, since it would help me take their towers faster.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
I mean, is not lvl1 fervor gives like half of the benefit of lvl4 in a phase of the game when getting damage nets larger gain than AS? q sounds better imo, even for farming.
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Max W and then Q with a value point in E.
Blindly following common builds on dotabuff is following your average 2k player.
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Max QW>WE. You can still solo rosh at level 11 with lvl1 fervor, it will take like a minute though. Checked with phase/hotd/aquila and without any creep buffs. I assume it would work with less items/levels if you get the frost armor creep.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
I mean common builds on dotabuff still has slark max pounce first
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Anybody see Bananaslamjamma's Jungle Troll Build? He posted a vid on YouTube. He got some favorable camps in the video but comes out level 6 by like 5 minutes which is pretty quick as far as I can tell. Curious for someone's more experienced opinion....
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As legit as any other jungling carries, so expect to be fucked over in CM matches and pubs higher than ~4.5k mmr. Also if they don't have a jungler of their own, your team will probably be heavily underfarmed before you get relevant. Just the reality of playing 4v5.
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what to do against Sniper? the little shit is always in the back kiting my troll.
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On March 05 2015 19:26 toemn wrote:
what to do against Sniper? the little shit is always in the back kiting my troll.
Get a shadow blade or a blink later in the game and bash his face in.
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On March 05 2015 18:35 robaq wrote:
As legit as any other jungling carries, so expect to be fucked over in CM matches and pubs higher than ~4.5k mmr. Also if they don't have a jungler of their own, your team will probably be heavily underfarmed before you get relevant. Just the reality of playing 4v5.
Don't know what is going on over 4.5K but jungle troll is really legit and you don't have to wait 25 minuted before entering the game. Troll rarely needs mana during jungling and can contribute with his ulti. In addition to that, value point on slow rekts enemy lanes against clueless players. The only real danger is a zoned out offlaner don't give a fuck about the game and going full parasite on you which you can alleviate the problem by bullying their easy lane and mid annoyance. After mask online, he is pretty much on par(slightly below probably but it is ok) with safe lane farm if uncontested.
Especially if the enemy team and your mates trade kills and efficiency equally, it is possible to get out of the jungle more farmed.
The only thing I focus on is keep the farm online, not commit every fight and keep the efficiency until 3rd item(boots + something + something bigger, phase+hotd+sb i.e)
Playing 4v5 lanes in early game doesn't have to be in heavily underfarmed situation depends on the picks. There are good picks can handle 2 man easy lane and 1 man offlane with a proper not losing(mostly winning) mid lane which allows you go actually get better in mid to late game by preserving tricore setup eventually hit harder in pubs.
I believe what you mention may possible if you cannot sustain easy lane against a retarded offlane (lich + something annoying) while the enemy safelane grab every last hit and mid got ganked 4 times in 10 minutes. Otherwise with a good jungler troll, you should be ahead in xp if not in farm.
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On March 05 2015 18:05 ahswtini wrote:
I mean common builds on dotabuff still has slark max pounce first
To be honest, in 3k dota where no one knows how to farm and peole just run around trying to kill shit, thats probably fine.
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The real problem with jungling troll is you are jingling probably the best laning carry in the game atm. He is so stupidly strong in lane. It's wasted potential.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 12 2015 03:37 ahw wrote:
The real problem with jungling troll is you are jingling probably the best laning carry in the game atm. He is so stupidly strong in lane. It's wasted potential.
Sniper is the best laning carry in the game nowadays, i thought we all agreed on that. It's a wasted potential, obviously, but it's greed can totally overcompensate for it.
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On March 05 2015 18:11 BoZiffer wrote:
Anybody see Bananaslamjamma's Jungle Troll Build? He posted a vid on YouTube. He got some favorable camps in the video but comes out level 6 by like 5 minutes which is pretty quick as far as I can tell. Curious for someone's more experienced opinion....
I've been forced into the jungle before by 5-carries line up (even buying courier... -_-) and it is usually ok. Not Enigma levels of farm and levels, but ok. Probably faster than level 1 naix which is so common......
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On March 12 2015 04:26 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 03:37 ahw wrote:
The real problem with jungling troll is you are jingling probably the best laning carry in the game atm. He is so stupidly strong in lane. It's wasted potential. Sniper is the best laning carry in the game nowadays, i thought we all agreed on that. It's a wasted potential, obviously, but it's greed can totally overcompensate for it.
I think troll's better in safe lane/ dual lanes. Axes OP. And troll can threaten rosh and rotate to the jungle between waves, sniper can't do it as quickly. Sniper kind of wants mid solo.
Problem is their offlaner will get a favourable 2v1. If troll is in the 2v1, it suddenly isn't favorable because troll is a beast
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 12 2015 05:44 ahw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 04:26 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 12 2015 03:37 ahw wrote:
The real problem with jungling troll is you are jingling probably the best laning carry in the game atm. He is so stupidly strong in lane. It's wasted potential. Sniper is the best laning carry in the game nowadays, i thought we all agreed on that. It's a wasted potential, obviously, but it's greed can totally overcompensate for it. I think troll's better in safe lane/ dual lanes. Axes OP. And troll can threaten rosh and rotate to the jungle between waves, sniper can't do it as quickly. Sniper kind of wants mid solo. Problem is their offlaner will get a favourable 2v1. If troll is in the 2v1, it suddenly isn't favorable because troll is a beast
But then again, if their offlaner can't straight out dominate the 2v1, your greed pays off. And let's be honest, troll does not farm slowly even in teh jungle (i mean, for the sake of test i did hit 5:30 dominator out of cliff jungling).
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United States47024 Posts
I don't know if I've ever played a pub game where there wasn't a lane for me to go to, and we needed another greedy farming hero.
Like, it's not that Troll is bad at jungling, but if the lanes you could put Troll in already have other heroes laning there, chances are it's because they're all already farming heroes and your team needs a tempo hero in the jungle, not another farmer.
There's definitely tempo safe lane heroes like Slardar or farming Centaur, so if you're playing with that it's probably fine, but you don't see that often in pubs.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 12 2015 07:54 TheYango wrote:
I don't know if I've ever played a pub game where there wasn't a lane for me to go to, and we needed another greedy farming hero.
Like, it's not that Troll is bad at jungling, but if the lanes you could put Troll in already have other heroes laning there, chances are it's because they're all already farming heroes and your team needs a tempo hero in the jungle, not another farmer.
There's definitely tempo safe lane heroes like Slardar or farming Centaur, so if you're playing with that it's probably fine, but you don't see that often in pubs.
Well, my pubs on average have a Slardar or Centaur every second game.
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makes me sad that this hero is so popular now when i was the only one playing it so long ago 
</hipster>
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Whats the best way to deal with this guy? I find he often gets out of control in my bracket and will end up raping face in fights despite attempts to shut him down.
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Artillery sniper with skadi/SNY is really annoying. I find storm hard to deal with - unless you get that first hit bash he kites well. WW too - healing targets you jump, and god help an ally that ww forces you to attack.
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On March 12 2015 12:30 Slendermang wrote:
Whats the best way to deal with this guy? I find he often gets out of control in my bracket and will end up raping face in fights despite attempts to shut him down.
Good luck kiting him. He can facerape a vast majority of the hero pool with equal farm unless you drag the game with a super carry who can soak up every gold he/she can get.
Sad for you if you play a not-that-core hero and your team try to facetank his mid game.
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Burst him before his bkb. After that it depends on what hero you have but its kind of annoying when you can't stick to a target after your bkb
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Heroes like brewmaster are good, haze debuff and useful spells. If you try to man fight you at least need an evasion core. Forcing an mkb before a bkb helps make him killable for a while, long enough for your cores to get online.
Dusa works. Lina is good mid game tempo with euls, you can slow his progression and he becomes really bad.
I think also you need strong supports who can do things while your cores get bkb or mkb.
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I was impressed by an ursa vs my troll recently, though I'd probably take that with a grain of salt (and there are probably better choices). Just the fact that Ursa is a carry-ish hero who naturally goes blink and has big burst means he could pick his initiation time and hit a big burst before axes could really make an effect (especially if it was off someone else's stun or disable). Plus he's able to also take rosh early making it more of a contested thing. A lot of this is game situation of course (he had a good mix of heroes to make him hard to kite and my team was lacking on reliable disables), but I thought it was interesting how annoying fury swipes was even as someone like troll.
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tinker's good too, although hes not too popular nowadays
Also beast master hawk can find him roshing or generally make rosh more difficult. Same with jug.
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Oh, also slark. You can purge off axes, and you ult when troll ults = useless troll ult in man fights. Slark actually matches up fairly well
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Just curious but why is this hero so popular. Dont see him much like Jugg and whenever I do he generally is kinda easy to beat.
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On March 14 2015 14:21 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:
Just curious but why is this hero so popular. Dont see him much like Jugg and whenever I do he generally is kinda easy to beat.
He can manfight most of the other rightclicking heroes and that's with equal farm, ult is like lycan howl and he can snowball really hard.
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he wins most lanes, scales well into mid game and late game, with a 2 second bash, he can manfight a shit ton of the cast, he is tanky, he can demolish towers, he can make your whole team demolish towers. He force enemy rightclickers to get mkb/bkb, he can solo rosh, and he can farm incredibly fast.
the dude is just so powerful in pubs.
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What do you guys think about sheepstick on troll against all these heroes that you can't actually catch up to, like 522ms sniper kiting you with skadi slow, or ember and shit ?
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well to use the sheepstick you also need to be in range of the sniper. i would get a blink in that situation. try to get in his face before he can attack you.
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I've seen sniper getting shit on by fast blink hotd into blink, a lot of games. On the other hand without blink, yeah troll suffers.
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Yeah, but what if you blink in and sniper insta manta, like you can't get your bash in, then he mom and skadi slow you in mid late game, what do ?
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 16 2015 06:46 Liebig wrote:
Yeah, but what if you blink in and sniper insta manta, like you can't get your bash in, then he mom and skadi slow you in mid late game, what do ?
Well, you probably need vision of Sniper and shift queue for this to work.
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United States47024 Posts
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On March 12 2015 04:26 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 03:37 ahw wrote:
The real problem with jungling troll is you are jingling probably the best laning carry in the game atm. He is so stupidly strong in lane. It's wasted potential. Sniper is the best laning carry in the game nowadays, i thought we all agreed on that. It's a wasted potential, obviously, but it's greed can totally overcompensate for it.
Sniper can't bully heroes as hard at earlier levels like Troll can. At level 2 you can't even fight Troll because if he lucky bashes you in lane you're 100% dead. I've killed so many mids with RNG bashes at level 2 I can't even begin to remember how much rage I've seen.
Sniper becomes a much stronger laner at 4 when he's got his whole kit setup with Level 2 Shrapnel/Headshot/Extra Range.
On March 16 2015 06:46 Liebig wrote:
Yeah, but what if you blink in and sniper insta manta, like you can't get your bash in, then he mom and skadi slow you in mid late game, what do ?
If Sniper gets touched by Troll mid to late game he should die in like 2 seconds. Blink Dagger is your friend here.
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On March 24 2015 14:48 superstartran wrote:
If Sniper gets touched by Troll mid to late game he should die in like 2 seconds. Blink Dagger is your friend here.
Eveything is in the "if"  . As a sniper, if troll can take you by surprise it usually means the game is fucked up (no warding, opponents free farming ur jungle etc.) and almost all heroes could have done the same.
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I think supports, and even some cores, needs to put really high emphasis on ghosts and forces against trolls. Beyond stuff like chrono and BH theres like not a single hero that can stand against a troll with BKB running at your team with ulti ready. The attack speed and bashing makes him out-manfight anything. You NEED to kite him. Just as an example: Had a WD the other day rushing Agh (which is like totally standard so I dont blame him at all really) but every fight he'd just die in 2sec when troll came rushing at him with BKB up. We had like a nothing else who could stand against him either so during those 5-10sec troll was litterally making a full 5man team run away all by himself. Had WD he went ghost+force instead he would both been able to survive and help others survive the BKB and ulti duration. After that troll is really not that scary.
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u need stuns and BKB piercing stuns like Wyvern ulit and bane ulti to control him, I have also found that early game if u just take the jungle away and deny him the ability to push , he is severely underfarmed and so I recommend just stomping him early becos in the late game if u ever lose a fight , there goes your base
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Wyvern is indeed amazing both because his ult and E which is like a ghost scepter but better on team mates. Anything that you can use to kite him and his BKB/ult is good. Probably one of the best support heroes against troll, if not the best.
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On March 24 2015 16:44 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 14:48 superstartran wrote:
If Sniper gets touched by Troll mid to late game he should die in like 2 seconds. Blink Dagger is your friend here. Eveything is in the "if" . As a sniper, if troll can take you by surprise it usually means the game is fucked up (no warding, opponents free farming ur jungle etc.) and almost all heroes could have done the same.
That's not necessarily true at all. A smoke gank, or simply out positioning can result in this.
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On March 24 2015 19:52 Kreb wrote:
I think supports, and even some cores, needs to put really high emphasis on ghosts and forces against trolls. Beyond stuff like chrono and BH theres like not a single hero that can stand against a troll with BKB running at your team with ulti ready. The attack speed and bashing makes him out-manfight anything. You NEED to kite him. Just as an example: Had a WD the other day rushing Agh (which is like totally standard so I dont blame him at all really) but every fight he'd just die in 2sec when troll came rushing at him with BKB up. We had like a nothing else who could stand against him either so during those 5-10sec troll was litterally making a full 5man team run away all by himself. Had WD he went ghost+force instead he would both been able to survive and help others survive the BKB and ulti duration. After that troll is really not that scary.
I'll point out that omnislash handles him pretty neatly after you have lvl 2 ult. Its one of the most dangerous things as troll.
Sniper is an interesting interaction.
If you can get on top of him, you'll tear his head off (using blink etc), but if you can't he can kite you and be a major pain as you engage his other teammates.
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Troll's a bullshit hero because of how strong he is in lane and catch up in jungle, like the pre-nerfed terrorblade. He gives so much freedom to his supports to roam early or catch up farm in lane later.
You just have to initiate on and burst him down in 1 go. Lina with aghs, jakiro with euls, axe with blademail are some really good heroes to initiate/burst him. I find Jakiro being one of the best solo offlaner to deal with troll. Axe is decent but is still forced to go into jungle if supports zone him out early, though axe's blademail is probably the strongest counter to troll midgame. Troll doesn't even give a shit to your +40 armor during call.
Strong dual lanes work too, but you have to control his jungle completely after winning the laning phase. Axe support with sniper is one combo i found coincidentally that is really strong. Also basically most combination of viper duolane. These are heroes that are really good against troll in mid game too.
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On March 25 2015 03:43 babysimba wrote:
Troll's a bullshit hero because of how strong he is in lane and catch up in jungle, like the pre-nerfed terrorblade. He gives so much freedom to his supports to roam early or catch up farm in lane later.
You just have to initiate on and burst him down in 1 go. Lina with aghs, jakiro with euls, axe with blademail are some really good heroes to initiate/burst him. I find Jakiro being one of the best solo offlaner to deal with troll. Axe is decent but is still forced to go into jungle if supports zone him out early, though axe's blademail is probably the strongest counter to troll midgame. Troll doesn't even give a shit to your +40 armor during call.
Strong dual lanes work too, but you have to control his jungle completely after winning the laning phase. Axe support with sniper is one combo i found coincidentally that is really strong. Also basically most combination of viper duolane. These are heroes that are really good against troll in mid game too.
Mid game, tinker is absolute hell to deal with as troll. He can perma blind you, and render you useless and also deal lots of magical damage (burst) to you. Yes, you get a bkb and can ignore this for a few seconds, but unless someone can get rid of the tinker he immediately starts screwing you over once your bkb wears out.
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I literally have like 300+ Troll games before he became flavor of the month due to the various buffs to his skills (and nerfs such as reducing his level 2 killing power which used to be absolutely absurd), etc.
He's not as broken as people believe he is; the main reason why he's so absurd right now is because he is one of the few strong scaling carries that also has absurd laning presence (easily one of the strongest laning carries in the game, and has ridiculous kill potential at even just level 2), he has an ultimate that greatly increases the overall damage output of his team (making him incredibly strong when paired up with a 2nd core mid that relies on auto attacks), and his ability to Roshan quickly makes him a very flavor pick in pubs (since disorganized pubs don't realize Troll can be doing Roshan at any time).
He is however highly susceptible to CC, more so then alot of other late game carries because he has no innate gap closers, and his defense is purely based on what items he has (and blind which I totally agree is absolutely absurd). Alot of his game is based on his ability to snowball and get out of control quickly; if you keep him in check early on by playing aggressive and forcing him to expend his mana (since his mana pool is absolutely atrocious) early in lane, you can actually make life very difficult for him. Strong initiation and CC is the best counter to him, which you could say for alot of other heroes, but Troll in fact struggles badly against strong initiation and CC, while other heroes that are strong late like Dusa, Spectre, PL, etc. don't mind CC as much as he does (if he's not hitting shit he's dying pretty fast).
So yeah, he's pretty absurd in pubs because most supports don't buy shit like Forcestaff, Ghost Scepter, Euls, etc. to kite Troll, nor do people pick shit that just wrecks him upside down like Beastmaster, Bane, blah blah blah. In competitive play though, he's much weaker than people think. iG nearly lost with a super stacked Troll Warlord because Empire had a crazy amount of CC for him; it's just that Empire basically threw the game down the drain with some critical key mistakes. He's a little too good in public play because it simply requires a coordinated effort to shut him down (far more coordinated then your prototypical standard pub coordination), but he's actually not quite as good as people think. Gonna be real sad days when they neuter him though.
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Let's not pretend the effects of 6.82 comeback mechanics and the following patches didn't lead to certain types of lineups excelling while the others flounder or are unviable. Just sayin this was forseen since 6.82. I agree with what you say generally super.
And no Troll is not as OP as people believe, it's just like 6.81 where everyone thought void/push was OP, or that comebacks were not possible and games ended too early for them to be possible. Those same people now can't deal with games going so late...go figure and want concede option.
Doesn't really matter when they nerf him, a new hero that is "impossible do deal with" will arise from his ashes and the whining continues.
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Troll is a good hero, but not op.
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On March 27 2015 16:26 DucK- wrote:
Troll is a good hero, but not op.
He's overpowered in public games in the sense that he punishes players so heavily for making very minor mistakes. Said minor mistakes don't happen in competitive play, so Troll in fact appears much weaker in competitive play than he does in public play. But he is a not fun hero to play against if you don't know how to properly kite and play to suppress his midgame tempo. For example, one fight mean Troll gets at least one, if not two towers. If he's in position, his team can do Roshan right away if they win one fight (at a much earlier time then other fast Roshan heroes can also). He's abit too strong in pubs, but it's going to be hard to balance him there when in all reality he gets absolutely neutered by heroes that can either kite him, or who can CC him through BKB.
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On March 27 2015 20:07 superstartran wrote:He's overpowered in public games in the sense that he punishes players so heavily for making very minor mistakes. Said minor mistakes don't happen in competitive play, so Troll in fact appears much weaker in competitive play than he does in public play. But he is a not fun hero to play against if you don't know how to properly kite and play to suppress his midgame tempo. For example, one fight mean Troll gets at least one, if not two towers. If he's in position, his team can do Roshan right away if they win one fight (at a much earlier time then other fast Roshan heroes can also). He's abit too strong in pubs, but it's going to be hard to balance him there when in all reality he gets absolutely neutered by heroes that can either kite him, or who can CC him through BKB.
I think that's more of being good than op. There are always ways to deal with troll regardless of team composition. Can't say the same of slark/ta/naga/pl.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On March 27 2015 21:55 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2015 20:07 superstartran wrote:On March 27 2015 16:26 DucK- wrote:
Troll is a good hero, but not op. He's overpowered in public games in the sense that he punishes players so heavily for making very minor mistakes. Said minor mistakes don't happen in competitive play, so Troll in fact appears much weaker in competitive play than he does in public play. But he is a not fun hero to play against if you don't know how to properly kite and play to suppress his midgame tempo. For example, one fight mean Troll gets at least one, if not two towers. If he's in position, his team can do Roshan right away if they win one fight (at a much earlier time then other fast Roshan heroes can also). He's abit too strong in pubs, but it's going to be hard to balance him there when in all reality he gets absolutely neutered by heroes that can either kite him, or who can CC him through BKB. I think that's more of being good than op. There are always ways to deal with troll regardless of team composition. Can't say the same of slark/ta/naga/pl.
I dunno about that. once he gets 1 item + BKB he's pretty strong. I think with the changes to max attack speed and how the gold mechanics of this patch work, he greatly benefits from mistakes bc he's a really strong hero. windranger is really strong bc of the attack speed max as well. they just blow things up.
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It's pretty stupid if you think this hero is not OP. He has only 1 weakness and his teammates composition can more than cover for it.
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On March 25 2015 02:55 StarMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 19:52 Kreb wrote:
I think supports, and even some cores, needs to put really high emphasis on ghosts and forces against trolls. Beyond stuff like chrono and BH theres like not a single hero that can stand against a troll with BKB running at your team with ulti ready. The attack speed and bashing makes him out-manfight anything. You NEED to kite him. Just as an example: Had a WD the other day rushing Agh (which is like totally standard so I dont blame him at all really) but every fight he'd just die in 2sec when troll came rushing at him with BKB up. We had like a nothing else who could stand against him either so during those 5-10sec troll was litterally making a full 5man team run away all by himself. Had WD he went ghost+force instead he would both been able to survive and help others survive the BKB and ulti duration. After that troll is really not that scary. I'll point out that omnislash handles him pretty neatly after you have lvl 2 ult. Its one of the most dangerous things as troll. Sniper is an interesting interaction. If you can get on top of him, you'll tear his head off (using blink etc), but if you can't he can kite you and be a major pain as you engage his other teammates.
If you blind a jugg before he omni's does he miss his auto attacks during the omni?
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I would assume yes, since i survived before a full aga omni as windrunner windrunning
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On March 28 2015 00:39 babysimba wrote:
I would assume yes, since i survived before a full aga omni as windrunner windrunning
thats not a blind thats evasion
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According to dota wiki, Jugg's omni slash shouldn't dispell debuffs, so the blind should apply.
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How about OD against troll? Force staff, atos, good against troll, astral to save allies, ulti blows him up.
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Just had a 36 kill game on troll. Single digit games played on him. What is this hero.
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On March 28 2015 23:29 See.Blue wrote:
Just had a 36 kill game on troll. Single digit games played on him. What is this hero.
balanced
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On March 28 2015 23:20 TheWestWind wrote:
How about OD against troll? Force staff, atos, good against troll, astral to save allies, ulti blows him up. . ive played that matchup, if you ever get behind as OD, you are just food to troll, and there is nothing you can do about it.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 29 2015 01:08 r_con wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2015 23:20 TheWestWind wrote:
How about OD against troll? Force staff, atos, good against troll, astral to save allies, ulti blows him up. . ive played that matchup, if you ever get behind as OD, you are just food to troll, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Well, you can: astral and blink out.
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Been playing more Troll.
Why don't more people get Quelling Blade? Seems worthwhile or because it causes us to 6-slot too early.
I like to go:
Starting: Stout, 2x Iron Branch, Salve, Tangoes
Early: RoA, Boots of Speed
Core: Phase, HotD, S&Y, BKB
Late-Game: Skadi, Satanic - but maybe MKB is more "core" so to speak
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QB is great for speeding up your farm (especially in the jungle). The downside is that if you go some combination of bottle/drums/RoA/HotD/stout/stick/phase with TPs/aegis early on, you won't have enough slots to hold onto it.
I would also add blink dag as core.
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United States47024 Posts
It depends on how your game develops, if you get a long jungle farming phase with QB+HoD+Aquila it rapidly makes itself worth it (even before you'd necessarily cap out on item slots).
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So far, I've been able to squeeze a Quelling Blade right after getting Helm of the Dominator.
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i would get a qb right after phase or at the very least after morbid mask
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if ur safelane im pretty sure you get qb asap every game
probably after phase, maybe before if ur lane is ez
if u go hotd before sny u definitely get qb
qb hotd phase solos rosh pretty ez
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SoCal8908 Posts
the reason you wanna ideally wait until after your morbid mask (at the earliest) is bc you don't really need it until you hit the jungle. you get it to cut through the trees and make your farming route shorter and your farming speed quicker when you're hitting the creeps.
push the wave out, hit the jungle, come back for the next wave, rinse and repeat.
you could get it before then to last hit the wave, but there really isn't a necessity for that.
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u can easily farm the jungle before morbid mask
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Is diffusal against medusa a thing as troll?
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Everything is a thing as troll.
Troll is a fine diffusal carrier. Although tbh at the moment he's probably a fine dagon carrier.
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On March 31 2015 16:08 Belisarius wrote:
Everything is a thing as troll.
Troll is a fine diffusal carrier. Although tbh at the moment he's probably a fine dagon carrier.
He is stupid though. Manaaaaa
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SoCal8908 Posts
On March 31 2015 10:41 Dead9 wrote:
u can easily farm the jungle before morbid mask
you sure can, but why would you want to if you have a lane to farm?
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On dire safelane in particular you want to start clearing the closest hardcamp asap between taking out lane creeps. If you feel you're strong enough to do it, stop waiting for creeps to hit 10% before you last hit. Instead shove the lane into enemy tower as fast as you can to give you maximum time to clear the camp. Clear it, get back to lane. Still a net win even if you miss 1-2 lane creeps, but done correctly you might miss zero. Repeat every minute. Efficiency.
A bit different on radiant, you'll likely miss more lane creeps. But top level players still judge whether leaving the lane to clear 1-3 camps and losing X amount of lane creeps is a win or loss compared to staying in lane .
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And it's always nice to leave the lane to give the supports some much needed xp/gold.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
yeah on dire safelane grab quelling, cut the tree to get back access to the hard camp, axes to clear it quickly and then you should make it back to the lane without missing any lane cs
radiant safelane, aggro the medium camp near the rune, move down and cut the tree at the back of the easy camp and then you can axe both camps for more efficiency
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SoCal8908 Posts
On March 31 2015 05:07 BluemoonSC wrote:
push the wave out, hit the jungle, come back for the next wave, rinse and repeat.
I'm well aware that this is what you can do. however, without items you will not be able to actually do that fast enough so picking up a QB before, say, phase boots, is not worthwhile..
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
right but you were arguing for buying quelling after morbid mask
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SoCal8908 Posts
i did say you could pick it up before right after that post if you wanted to. however, I still think the timing is a liiiiiittle too early to pick it up unless you still have left over regen but if people are farming efficiently picking it up before their morbid mask, ill have to check it out.
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Are Quelling Blade + Ring of Protection + Tangos + 1 Branch good start items?
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generally not
start with stout, pick up qb from sideshop when u need it since u sure don't need it to CS with, etc. 1 thing of tangos may be greedy depending on what ur lane is gonna look like.
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pre phase it takes like .5 tango to clear ez camp at lv3 if u go 111
2 or 3 for hard camp depending on spawn
at lv5 it takes like nothing for ez and 1 or 1.5 for hard
post phase its even ezier
im not saying u pick it up pre phase every game, but if ur lane is ez why not
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
i pick up qb as my first item in lane most of the time because im gonna take whatever edge i can get when last hitting.
this applies to like any melee safelane carry. i dont really buy the "you dont need it if you know how to last hit" excuse
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United States47024 Posts
On April 01 2015 08:56 ahswtini wrote:
i pick up qb as my first item in lane most of the time because im gonna take whatever edge i can get when last hitting.
this applies to like any melee safelane carry. i dont really buy the "you dont need it if you know how to last hit" excuse
It's not that "you don't need it if you know how to lasthit", but that past a certain level of ability, you get more lasthitting comfort by forcing the enemy laner away from the lane with items that make you more dangerous to them than by having higher lasthitting damage, but having the enemy laner still be there to bother you.
If your lane is free, go ahead and buy a QB.
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The hero needs to convert stats/damage into a meaningful threat, though.
Obviously troll contributes a ton with small items, but I wouldn't say that's a blanket rule. Stuff like spec/am/whatever don't have many other uses for 225g.
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United States47024 Posts
Well with those heroes, your stayability in lane also hinges heavily on when you get your Ring of Health, and a QB doesn't necessarily mean you get that Ring of Health sooner in difficult lanes.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On April 01 2015 05:59 Dead9 wrote:
pre phase it takes like .5 tango to clear ez camp at lv3 if u go 111
2 or 3 for hard camp depending on spawn
at lv5 it takes like nothing for ez and 1 or 1.5 for hard
post phase its even ezier
im not saying u pick it up pre phase every game, but if ur lane is ez why not
dunno. when you're safe lane and someone is pulling for you, i dont see much use in getting it if its gonna take you extra regen to make it through the hard camp (dire) or medium camp (radiant).
i personally value a quicker morbid mask so that if shit hits the fan you don't have to necessarily go back to base.
like yango said, its a matter of comfort by being able to stay in lane, however you choose to do it.
that's why i see the value in getting qb after morbid or after helm
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United States47024 Posts
On April 01 2015 10:06 BluemoonSC wrote:
like yango said, its a matter of comfort by being able to stay in lane, however you choose to do it.
You're arguing 2 different things.
I think you rarely want QB as the first 225 gold you spend after you get to lane, but after Boots/Basi it starts to get tricky. Especially if you have level 6+Phase, QB lets you push tower faster (since you kill creeps faster), so even if you aren't necessarily going straight to the jungle after, it has its uses once you no longer want to maintain creep equilibrium, especially with how fast Troll can break tower with ult + 1-2 supports.
Buying it just to go jungle with Mask isn't the only reason you buy QB.
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I guess it depends on the lane. I find it's fairly common that you run into a pub lane that you can't easily push out or kill, but that also doesn't heavily threaten you. QB's worth quite a few CS in dumb standoff lanes.
Sure, that usually means both teams have shitty lanes, but this whole pentacore thing produces a lot of shitty lanes.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On April 01 2015 10:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 10:06 BluemoonSC wrote:
like yango said, its a matter of comfort by being able to stay in lane, however you choose to do it.
You're arguing 2 different things. I think you rarely want QB as the first 225 gold you spend after you get to lane, but after Boots/Basi it starts to get tricky. Especially if you have level 6+Phase, QB lets you push tower faster (since you kill creeps faster), so even if you aren't necessarily going straight to the jungle after, it has its uses once you no longer want to maintain creep equilibrium, especially with how fast Troll can break tower with ult + 1-2 supports. Buying it just to go jungle with Mask isn't the only reason you buy QB.
true, but I think that comfort of getting the mask a little sooner is part of my reason for holding onto the 225 gold.
i'll play around with it some more, as I plan on spamming troll for a little while
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If you are radiant it's probably worth it for cutting trees in the jungle alone. That saves 10 seconds every minute
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Concerning all the troll issues...
I just yesterday started counterpicking wyvern against him... and it works REALLY well. And I mean I did it with a reason.: Her Q can kite him temporarly very easy; her W is a nice burst and slow (additional kiting); E obviously negates his physical dmg on one target ( and troll has issues switching targets, imo hes good and focusing one after another)
and her R disables him for ~3 sec and in the optimal case turns his ult against his own team! Seriously it feels like that hero is made against troll :D and my game sample size for now is 2!!! which is more than one, which means im right!
So for 6.84 just add ww to cm
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On April 22 2015 23:41 Gear 3rd wrote:Concerning all the troll issues... I just yesterday started counterpicking wyvern against him... and it works REALLY well. And I mean I did it with a reason.: Her Q can kite him temporarly very easy; her W is a nice burst and slow (additional kiting); E obviously negates his physical dmg on one target ( and troll has issues switching targets, imo hes good and focusing one after another) and her R disables him for ~3 sec and in the optimal case turns his ult against his own team! Seriously it feels like that hero is made against troll :D and my game sample size for now is 2!!! which is more than one, which means im right! So for 6.84 just add ww to cm
I did try WW too it works if your team coordinates well. Fundamentally, WW has some tools to deal with troll unlike many others.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
yeah ice dragon has one of the best skillsets to check troll with
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but quelling blade makes enemies deny less in hard lanes....
making ur next item even quicker
quelling blade also makes u take less harass. just coz u can kill that low creep easier meaning u are there (enemy range) for less time meaning u get hit less
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180 attack speed is pretty good. Could troll be viable again?
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The fervor change is strange. He is better at roshing and hitting towers i guess? I remember when this hero was a beast in lane, not so much anymore.
I guess he could work in some specific drafts where your objective is to take rosh and push towers as 5.
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Troll always struck me as a liability after the last round of new items. Glimmer Cape, Solar Crest, and Silver Edge all really mess with the way Troll likes to fight to some extent.
Maybe the recent changes buff him to be worth taking? But it seems like if he's popular you'd just see more heroes that bring break items/abilities out to make Troll dead in the water outside of getting BKB off before Silver Edge (or whatever break).
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SoCal8908 Posts
How is troll these days. sn0 and I were talking about him last night and he seemed to think he's garbage. I still think he's good if youre active and fight/push until you can't fight and push any more.
Does he need specific items to succeed? Is he a niche hero?
Also - paging beesa bc I know you were playing him the other day.
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Far from the 70% winrate era  Its a niche pick at best when there are carries like Sven, gyro, slark who get active with less items and farm faster early on.
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United States2186 Posts
If Troll's supports are good he farms faster in lane than anyone except maybe TB and Sven since he can kill anything at lvl 3. He's also quite nasty against a lot of these manfight carries since he can out-manfight them. He definitely gets online and fights well if he gets a good start.
Troll is quite strong if you get an easy lane, but when half the time the safelane is the suicide lane, he's really weak without excellent rotations since his midgame is quite bad playing from behind. The -15 dmg nerf just makes him so volatile.
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SoCal8908 Posts
how would you build him most games (assuming safelane isn't suicide lane)
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Phase + Aquila into Yasha/morbid/domi depending on how easy the lane is, finish domi stack ancients, bkb or finish sny/manta depending on game.
Usually mkb as 1st big item, satanic or fly/skadi again situational.
Only go crit if opponent carries got mkb already and u badly need damage, otherwise its not as good as skadi/fly/satanic.
(Only 4k altho 69% on tw)
Edit: played few games, as Ver said i just skyrocketed agains furion offlane. If team can secure freefarm its fkin fun to play tw, just facerush and see a gyro melt.
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One random thing about troll is that Phoenix is very much in the meta right now, and he's a very good counter to him. Whoever in the team is facing the egg, just ulti and watch the phoenix cry
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On May 21 2016 16:25 Shikada wrote:One random thing about troll is that Phoenix is very much in the meta right now, and he's a very good counter to him. Whoever in the team is facing the egg, just ulti and watch the phoenix cry
At the same time that would mean troll can't ulty until Phoenix does which is trading a core's effectiveness for a support's. It's the same reason giving up a core slot for a silencer doesn't work vs phoenix. Phoenix also likes enemies that tie themselves to a target like troll does with fervor and bashlord status.
Troll is decent, but you need a line up where he'd be doing well anyways and it's not the ult that helps, you just use your naturally fast attack speed and bashlord status to deal with phoenix, not the ult.
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Randomed this guy 2 times in my last 5 games, once laning against tide and a support tusk on my side, awful lane, jungle always empty because of our NP + SF flashfarmers, was a burden all game outside of accelerating objectives. We still won but wow it's tough to come back in the game. Second game, had an amazing support rubick against a timber, I thought he would wreck us but fervor prevents timber to be too cocky with his reactive armor shenanigans and rubick was damn on point with his telekinesis to cancel chains, zoning and pull timing. I snowballed super hard and the guy is easy to keep snowballing. Mates were super careful going out of their way to resplenish my mana with bottle or arcanes, it helped a lot to farm.
Overall I don't find he farms that fast, He loves to 1v1, lucky bashes happen and he's super fun to play though I feel as much as he's amazing at going forward, he's extremeley awful at retreating. I tried stacking ancients but he can't solo them in the way other heroes can, he needs the help of the team.
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I feel like troll is the hero to watch atm. He's being picked more and more this qualifier and his winrate seems good. So, what is the build here, dominator, sange yasha, bkb, manta/skadi? Should i go roshan and 5-man take all towers with him? How to counter him? And also is he really good or am i wrong.
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Troll was a case of "Nerfed therefore don't pick"; he went from broken to fair in my opinion but I guess meta changes made it seem like he was bad. Manta and S&Y overlap each other without increasing Troll abilities in anyway so either one or the other, preferably S&Y. But yeah the build is the same old 2014 build as far as I can see, Troll still does the same thing he was doing back then and you can't really do anything else with him.
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6.88 was a pretty major buff for him and his talents aren't bad. Waga said that Troll's probably a top 10 hero right now, so I'm not too surprised to see him come back into the pro scene.
Silver edge is pretty good on him, he has problems with getting kited and actually has solo kill potential on a lot of heroes.
He's probably one of the last heroes SnY is still build on, so it's going to be interesting to see where troll will end up when the item gets some serious love.
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Is Troll a good candidate for the Shadow Blade + Echo Sabre build? He doesn't really need the mana from Echo Sabre, but the ability to be melee when Echo Sabre's ready and ranged when it isn't seems pretty good.
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no
hotd sny bkb skadi satanic w/e
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I don't think echo gives you anything desirable with troll except for maybe the very minimal slow. SE can be a replacement for SnY I think.
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EPT
