EPT[Hero] Troll Warlord - Page 7
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Acetone
United States200 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
I tried the suggestions mentioned here about Q+both nukes to harras inlane but that drawed creepaggro. With a RoP i needed too many consumeables, a PMS is better suited for that job. So if you plan on being aggresive early with troll inlane, a PMS seems to save alot of gold. If you just want to farm in the early game, pms seems less usefull, Like tortedelini im just trying everything to find or experience what im doing wrong and seek and analyse small differences, | ||
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paper
13196 Posts
Bottle is worth considering in any lane. While PMS does reduce damage, it's not going to heal you back up, and the new rune change gives you a close rune every spawn. I'd rather have a faster bracer because the PMS gets sold way too fast. Tip: try to HP regen (tango or bottle) while in ranged mode, then swap back to melee mode (which is what you're going to be in most of the time). It's a small detail but easy to do. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On October 25 2014 19:23 paper wrote: Ideally you're using whirling to last-hit & harass at the same time. The miss chance reduces creep damage and you should come out on top. The only regen I go to lane with is a set of tangos (and maybe +salve if the lane looks annoying) which easily tides me over till bottle. Bottle is worth considering in any lane. While PMS does reduce damage, it's not going to heal you back up, and the new rune change gives you a close rune every spawn. I'd rather have a faster bracer because the PMS gets sold way too fast. Tip: try to HP regen (tango or bottle) while in ranged mode, then swap back to melee mode (which is what you're going to be in most of the time). It's a small detail but easy to do. Great advice, thanks for the tips. Do you regularly go Bracer and when in your item progression do you grab it? | ||
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paper
13196 Posts
I usually get 3x branch 1x tango and try to mid, but I'll offlane or safelane if my teammates take mid from me. My progression is Bottle > Phase > Bracer/Drums (with TPs thrown in there). You should definitely have bottle before the 2:00 rune. What I don't like about my build are as follow: 1) The branches don't build into anything I want. I might look into just starting with a circlet instead. 2) Drums have been nerfed over the past few patches. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On October 26 2014 18:02 paper wrote: Yes, I always go bracer to build drums. I usually get 3x branch 1x tango and try to mid, but I'll offlane or safelane if my teammates take mid from me. My progression is Bottle > Phase > Bracer/Drums (with TPs thrown in there). You should definitely have bottle before the 2:00 rune. What I don't like about my build are as follow: 1) The branches don't build into anything I want. I might look into just starting with a circlet instead. 2) Drums have been nerfed over the past few patches. What's wrong with getting a wand? Also why are you getting drums anyway. You don't need it at all, and it doesn't provide anything important to the hero. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On October 26 2014 22:01 DucK- wrote: What's wrong with getting a wand? Also why are you getting drums anyway. You don't need it at all, and it doesn't provide anything important to the hero. Troll is one of the few heroes that building Drums and S&Y is legit on considering how he is basically an all-in midgame type of hero. If he doesn't bust down your door and snowballs in the early/midgame, he fucking blows ass late game vs any decent hard carry hero. Drums is pretty solid on Troll, grants mspd, mana, attack speed, etc. that comes at a okish price. There's not many other items you'd rather get on Troll early in the game except maybe a BKB if you can manage to squeeze it in early, but then you're gonna have mana pool issues until you are level 11+ With Drums/Aquila, you can pretty much faceroll most heroes early on and they wouldn't dare fight you. And with S&Y you'll be 522 Mspd catching scrubs down at lightning speeds. Not the best way to play Troll, but certainly not the worst way either. It's all line-up dependent on what you want to do. I mean, he's one of the few heroes where Mspd stat really does actually matter alot, since his melee form is easy as balls to kite even with BKB on. There are extremely rare cases where you would be better off skipping Drums and rushing a core item, but that's very rare considering you pick Troll to play very aggressive early on and just smash kids into the ground. I'm not gonna say Aquila/Drums is core on him, but it's an extremely common pick-up among various top players who play Troll consistently. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
There are alot of value items in dota2 but that doesnt mean its a best fit for a hero in the current patch. Wand & RoA in the current patch are lower tier compared to the bottle just because of the double rune spawn i think. Drums should be core in 90% of the games, unless you snowballing so hard you can skip them. Drums bridges the gap to S&Y and make you more relevant early. I like papers build and i would advice anyone to try it, its solid. I think troll is a nice pick against void. When void jumps in and casts the chrono there is a delay in which you can easily hit whirling axes to give troll 60% misschance. Its so funny to see him miss all those attacks and then die after. Wierd we havent seen troll alot against void in promatches, felt pretty good counterpick in the trench. Seems im starting to understand the toggles and the nukes better  | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On November 03 2014 14:19 Ace wrote: Really dont see drums as core on Troll at all. Just use Phase boots + wand and you're set since he doesn't need the Attack speed or move speed from drums. No idea how people are kiting you when you have a ranged slow. Throw axes -> melee form and phase if needed. Once you have Yasha, which drums isn't helping you farm then you're set on move speed anyway. 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote: 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. I always think Drum recipe is too much of a gold considering what it has contribute. Keeping bracer on hand, relying on mates to slow or stun the enemy is better in my book. Drum is become a relatively expensive(let's say less efficient) item after last cost nerfs. Not saying xxx>drums but phase, bracer, RoA is a lot more easy to build and better build up than drum. Darn recipe. Troll can be kite-able even with drums since mostly the enemy has towers by that time.(if you rekt towers then why drums). Troll needs a formidable disabler rather than a %5 AS/MS expensive paper. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 03 2014 21:15 superstartran wrote: 1) Why would you ever farm on Troll outside of the first few minutes of laning phase? Troll should always be pushing or in the opposing team's face. 2) If you're not going Mek (which only works under certain line-ups that can provide Troll Warlord mana), Drums is pretty core on Troll because it gives so many stats that he likes. It gives him a bigger mana pool (and it's usable considering his mana costs are low, but his overall mana pool is small so the increase from Drums makes a significant difference), hp, movespeed, attack speed, and a useful activatable during fights or for chasing. 3) Drums is straight up better than Yasha as a first item. Not even debatable. Yasha gives you aspd/mspd/damage, drums gives you all that on top of better early game presence, along with other bonuses such as more staying power in fights and a useful activatable. Yasha is only better in the instance that you for whatever reason need to farm, which should never be your goal as Troll. 4) People kite the living daylights out of Trolls with no movespeed. Phase/Drums makes it much, much, much harder to kite you. Drums is a good bridge item along with Aquila as they provide you stats that are oh so good on Troll and much earlier than other items. Once you've got both and have dominated the game, you can continue to progress with bigger items. There's no better item better than Drums as a singular item early in the game for Troll. It provides way too many benefits that he wants. He needs mana, movespeed, survivability, attack speed, and damage. Until he gets enough levels, his mana pool will suck massively. Guess which item provides all of that? Drums. 1) Dunno, maybe because there is no action of the map and pushing can backfire? 2) The only thing that drum is worth to buy for is MS for troll in cases when having faster yasha/sny won't be as good/better. 3) Point booster + Yasha is straight up better than Drum + 2 components of yasha. 4) If people can kite the hell out of a hero with 350 base MS with phase boots and ranged slow , drum won't help you one bit, faster bkb will. So, your point again? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2014 21:49 Laserist wrote: I always think Drum recipe is too much of a gold considering what it has contribute. Keeping bracer on hand, relying on mates to slow or stun the enemy is better in my book. Drum is become a relatively expensive(let's say less efficient) item after last cost nerfs. Not saying xxx>drums but phase, bracer, RoA is a lot more easy to build and better build up than drum. Darn recipe. The recipe is actually fine, it's 875 gold for a 3/6/2 stats + aura + active, which is fine for something that saves a slot. The dealbreaker is whether you want a Robe of the Magi, which on Troll depends on what items you have/will get because while his spells are cheap, his base mana is also shit (e.g. something like Lothar's puts significant strain on his mana if you don't have some supplementary +Int). Put differently, 1325 gold for 3/6/6 + aura + active is too much for a hero that doesn't need the mana, but for a hero that already needs at least the Robe's mana anyway, the 875 additional recipe isn't that bad. Phase+Bracer+RoA is an additional item slot--and this hero tends to be fairly constrained for item slots as is, so the slight efficiency benefit of getting both RoA AND Bracer is pretty fleeting given how early you fill slots on this hero. | ||
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Vikeif
126 Posts
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
I put bracer there for those who like the early cheap hp buildup. I rather rely on armor(troll is pure armor in melee) and RoA depending on the opponent picks. Phase/RoA/Wand is my go-to build and will give you slot efficiency and hp problems can be alleviated by club into bkb. The build also has a very solid build-up with very cheap components, ramp up very fast. Current meta relies less early fighting rather farm into some early skirmishes so I believe the build is enough for that. I generally think 875 + 4 creeps = ogre axe > drum recipe. I am not trying to produce counter arguments to your build, drum is solid on its own. Just try to argue an alternative, smoother build to better item transition. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On November 04 2014 02:36 Vikeif wrote: IMO I only grab drums when I am not doing particularly well and I need SOMETHING to help me transition to a better item while I'm still participating with my team. IME grabbing a drum early vs just holding on to a bracer leads to pretty much the same level of effectiveness if I'm not behind. However it might be that I'm not abusing the timing at which I grab drums to get in the enemy's face to snowball even harder. My guess is that it has more to do with how passive or aggressive someone plays the hero. Like, eversince im practising papers build, i have shifted from a passive farmer until bkb (with lifesteal early) to a true warlord from lvl2 and onward. If troll is that aggressive that early and doesnt stop, the extra stats+bottleregen make it that he can sustain that level of harrasment continiously if he granted enough runes. If he would only have a bracer he would eventually be a bit less scary and./or have less chance to sustain the fighting continiously without eating consumables or tping to the fountain. If you are a bit more passive then i am then i guess a naked bracer+bottle could be suffient. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On November 04 2014 02:36 Vikeif wrote: IMO I only grab drums when I am not doing particularly well and I need SOMETHING to help me transition to a better item while I'm still participating with my team. IME grabbing a drum early vs just holding on to a bracer leads to pretty much the same level of effectiveness if I'm not behind. However it might be that I'm not abusing the timing at which I grab drums to get in the enemy's face to snowball even harder. One think you should know is that if you are not doing well, Drums will not help you much. In fact it makes things worst because you just wasted precious gold on something that doesn't change a thing. Drums is NOT a catch up item. On the contrary, Drums is an item to sustain your tempo. | ||
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