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On January 20 2015 17:36 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vlads or Helm on Troll? I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts about this because I've tried it both ways and I'm not sure. I don't find myself dominating creeps with the helm all that often (and I feel I should) and vlads scales better into lategame, leaves the attack modifier open and builds off Ring of basilius which I like to have early. But I find that helm's 20 damage is very useful to have in the early game compared to Vlad's ~10, plus helm of iron will is good if having trouble in lane.
If I wanna push fast with my team i am tending to go vlads, otherwise Hotd.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Vlads scales better? It's not like you can build HoD into a Satanic. Pretty much all of the benefits of vlads are in the form of an aura, so lategame ideally a support should be carrying it. The only attack modifier that doesn't work with HoD is desolator. Just turn your basi ring into an aquila.
imo people really overestimate the +damage aura that vlads gives. Making the assumption that your average core only has about 150 base damage lategame (which I think is actually being very liberal), vlads only gives you a paltry +22.5dmg. If we take a lvl 20 troll with phase, sny, daedalus vlads bkb and lothars, he's only doing 116-134 base damage
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On January 20 2015 18:20 Lash- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 17:36 ROOTiaguz wrote:
Vlads or Helm on Troll? I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts about this because I've tried it both ways and I'm not sure. I don't find myself dominating creeps with the helm all that often (and I feel I should) and vlads scales better into lategame, leaves the attack modifier open and builds off Ring of basilius which I like to have early. But I find that helm's 20 damage is very useful to have in the early game compared to Vlad's ~10, plus helm of iron will is good if having trouble in lane. If I wanna push fast with my team i am tending to go vlads, otherwise Hotd.
this basically. so for 90% of pub purposes you're going hotd
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Dotabuff winrates seem misleading to me: hotd has a 1% lower winrate then average and vlads has a 6% above average winrate. I think alot of people go for a hotd after boots on troll, which imo is too early and messes up his winrate and this comparison.
I think the farmspeed of troll in a specific game influences which item is more efficient. if you are having a good game a hotd will soon upgrade into a satanic, else a vlads could be more efficient and should have a slightly higher impact (which could partly explain the dotabuffs winrates).
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The only reason you should get hotd on this hero early is stack hard camps to clear out, and later stack ancient camps (though this hero sucks at killing ancients pretty much).
Vlads is pretty bad unless the aura is really good for your team and you are hitting some kind of pushing timing (which you dont have to do anymore on this hero since it scales ridiculously well).
Most of the time, i'd rather time aquila / drums or S&Y into bkb. Not sure about the timing on blink, some people do that.
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So, in harder games I tend to skip SnY in favour of faster BKB and crit/mkb, so my inventory in most games consists of TP scroll, PB, Yasha, HotD, BKB and a damage item. Is it worth to upgrade to Manta, or just sell the Yasha and get something else?
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20 damage, 5 armor, always starting fights at or near max hp, and getting back another 100-250 hp from lifesteal throughout the fight is pretty worth it in general for dominator's cost of 1850. Compared with 304 max hp and +10 damage from a sange, it's comparably even or better for staying alive in fights.
Stacking with the creep is bonus, as it helps accelerate your farm into your next item. Later in the game, a satanic is really good too, so it's not like it's a wasted slot.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that entering a team fight with sny is only marginally better than coming in with yasha/dominator, and yasha/dominator sets you up better since you don't have to go back to the fountain to heal between ganks/fights. Also, safer farm in the jungle and ez roshans is always nice,
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lifesteal also lets u solo rosh
hotd is way better than vlads
it increases ur farm speed by a lot
also the creep is useful for scouting/w.e
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sange also gives u 4% movespeed and maim
both r pretty important on troll
and 300 hp is much more valuable than 5 amor and a bit of lifesteal
by the time u buy sny u usually have sub max 1k hp
and u should be full hp regardless for teamfights
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Vlads is amazing on troll, I would never go hotd.
Even the mana regeneration is great. Makes you farm faster in the jungle, especially if you don't have bottle/or are out of slots.
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On January 21 2015 04:20 Dead9 wrote:
sange also gives u 4% movespeed and maim
both r pretty important on troll
and 300 hp is much more valuable than 5 amor and a bit of lifesteal
by the time u buy sny u usually have sub max 1k hp
and u should be full hp regardless for teamfights
Sange doesn't give movespeed, that's Yasha only.
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hotd farms like 20% faster than vlads
thats not even an exaggeration u get like 100~150 extra gpm if u control a wildkin and stack/nado constantly
u can get a lot more if u micro a creep in lane but that's a lot harder
orrr if that's too hard u can just have an aura creep follow u around ...
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u get 4% for completing sny is wat he means
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sny gives 4% bonus movespeed over yasha
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On January 21 2015 06:28 Sn0_Man wrote:
u get 4% for completing sny is wat he means
isn't it 6% then lol?
10% Yasha,
16% S&Y
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oh right icefraud made sny the "16" item i forgot
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On January 21 2015 05:20 ZieInverse wrote:
Vlads is amazing on troll, I would never go hotd.
Even the mana regeneration is great. Makes you farm faster in the jungle, especially if you don't have bottle/or are out of slots.
You have it in reverse. HotD is amazing troll, and I wouldn't agree to never go Vlads but it's definitely the more niche item of the two.
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Only nice thing about vlads is you can salvage it together with a roh and dismantling Aquila, kind of useful if you are doing a dual offlane and you need to throw it together for a quick team rosh. Kind of like a recovery thing if you aren't winning the offlane
Otherwise hotd, or just skip life steal entirely for a faster SNY bkb
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I played a game with troll last night where I was completely shut down by a viper and shadow demon who would slow me down so much that I couldn't get anything done in fights. BKB did nothing, and even with SNY + drums + phase I was running slower than everybody else.
Besides not picking troll into those two, is there anything else I could have done to make myself not such a huge paperweight in fights?
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EPT
