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On November 30 2014 15:11 B1nary wrote:
Is there a standard skill build for Ogre? (as support)
I see most people max Q first but I find that maxing W first is stronger for ganks. Though I suppose maxing Q is better for multicast at level 7.
I also see some people only getting 1 level in W to get E maxed faster. So I don't think there is a standard, depends on team compositions. If you need anti push W is the only one that does it.
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On November 30 2014 15:11 B1nary wrote:
Is there a standard skill build for Ogre? (as support)
I see most people max Q first but I find that maxing W first is stronger for ganks. Though I suppose maxing Q is better for multicast at level 7.
Ignite does more reliable damage (over time), but Fireblast does more burst damage (with multicasts). Depends on what you need in that particular game imo.
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You get nearly all of the utility of Ignite at level 1 though. I don't see much advantage in maxing it first unless you're playing an afk farming core ogre and want to farm stacked camps with it or something. After all you have pretty lame burst at 7 with 1 fireblast.
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I always tend to get the 2nd lvl of ignite at level 3 regardless of which route I'm going
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United States6450 Posts
On December 01 2014 06:04 synapse wrote:
i like w q w q q r q
Depends on lineups IMO. If you need a setup stun I think that fireblast is still the best, but if you can do something like boots first, I think ignite first is better.
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w-q-w or q-w-w are my usual openings. I think 2 points ignite is generally better than 2 fireblast unless you're facing someone like Slark or Abbaddon. Though with Slark you can sometimes bait the dispell with fireblast then ignite.
I generally think maxing ignite first is not the best idea. The average damage of 4-2-0-1 and 2-4-0-1 are close (540 vs. 520), but more important than damage is that fireblast with level 1 multi is a 10s cooldown compared to 15s for ignite. In a gank there's a real chance you can get off 2 fireblasts if you need to and that's far less likely to happen with Ignite. Especially for an early teamfight, being able to hit 2 or 3 fireblasts at 240dmg minimum is way more useful than ignite. Even if you never multicast, over the course of a fight 4-2-0-1 should deal more damage (not counting ignite's AoE potential).
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United States6450 Posts
This is another thing I feel is situational. If an opposing team is built around early push and 5 man then I would argue that ignite is better than fireblast. However if you're the aggressive team, I agree that it's better to get more points in fireblast as you can completely erase an enemy hero from the map with one good roll of the dice.
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On December 01 2014 06:04 synapse wrote:
i like w q w q q r q
I see very few reasons to not go this route.
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Ignite first feels like the typical theorycraft to me.
On paper it looks good, maybe even better than Fireblast, what with the much higher total damage and slow can be as good as stun sometimes.
Well, it's not^^
There is the cooldown as mentioned above, Ignite has a projectile rather than being instant, the slow is weak, closer to orb of venoms 12% slow than to respectable 40% slow like poison attack, gush or spirit lance.
The projectile is really sad though, it's already not a big aoe, but with the projectile it's even less likely to get multiple heroes in one ignite.
Oh and Fireblast can actually lead to kills in lane, while Ignite only leads to enemies buying some more tangoes.
And that killing someone quickly is actually important to minimize the damage you get in return. A stunned enemy can't cast spells, a slowed enemy can. That's where multicasted Fireblast is better than multicasted Ignite.
I can see where people are coming from with Ignite builds, but I can't really see a situation where it is noticably better than a Fireblast build.
/rant
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
thats why you buy an orb of venom as well :D
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After lvl 1 fireblast, Ignite > fireblast, because the slow scales and the stun doesnt and ignite can be aoe.
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jsut go ignite at level 1 then go standar
ffs
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On December 01 2014 19:20 Mataza wrote:
Ignite first feels like the typical theorycraft to me.
On paper it looks good, maybe even better than Fireblast, what with the much higher total damage and slow can be as good as stun sometimes.
Well, it's not^^
There is the cooldown as mentioned above, Ignite has a projectile rather than being instant, the slow is weak, closer to orb of venoms 12% slow than to respectable 40% slow like poison attack, gush or spirit lance.
The projectile is really sad though, it's already not a big aoe, but with the projectile it's even less likely to get multiple heroes in one ignite.
Oh and Fireblast can actually lead to kills in lane, while Ignite only leads to enemies buying some more tangoes.
And that killing someone quickly is actually important to minimize the damage you get in return. A stunned enemy can't cast spells, a slowed enemy can. That's where multicasted Fireblast is better than multicasted Ignite.
I can see where people are coming from with Ignite builds, but I can't really see a situation where it is noticably better than a Fireblast build.
/rant
i don't think its aoe before lvl 6
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On December 01 2014 23:36 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 19:20 Mataza wrote:
Ignite first feels like the typical theorycraft to me.
On paper it looks good, maybe even better than Fireblast, what with the much higher total damage and slow can be as good as stun sometimes.
Well, it's not^^
There is the cooldown as mentioned above, Ignite has a projectile rather than being instant, the slow is weak, closer to orb of venoms 12% slow than to respectable 40% slow like poison attack, gush or spirit lance.
The projectile is really sad though, it's already not a big aoe, but with the projectile it's even less likely to get multiple heroes in one ignite.
Oh and Fireblast can actually lead to kills in lane, while Ignite only leads to enemies buying some more tangoes.
And that killing someone quickly is actually important to minimize the damage you get in return. A stunned enemy can't cast spells, a slowed enemy can. That's where multicasted Fireblast is better than multicasted Ignite.
I can see where people are coming from with Ignite builds, but I can't really see a situation where it is noticably better than a Fireblast build.
/rant i don't think its aoe before lvl 6
zat iz correct
in other words, it only becomes aoe if you have multicast levelled
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I still like WQWQWRW. Guaranteed damage and extra seconds of slow are better during the laning phase. I dislike having to depend on luck to get multicast kills
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I like value point in bloodlust at lvl 4.
You mostly just ignite+ hit people with oov anyway.
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On December 01 2014 23:36 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 19:20 Mataza wrote:
Ignite first feels like the typical theorycraft to me.
On paper it looks good, maybe even better than Fireblast, what with the much higher total damage and slow can be as good as stun sometimes.
Well, it's not^^
There is the cooldown as mentioned above, Ignite has a projectile rather than being instant, the slow is weak, closer to orb of venoms 12% slow than to respectable 40% slow like poison attack, gush or spirit lance.
The projectile is really sad though, it's already not a big aoe, but with the projectile it's even less likely to get multiple heroes in one ignite.
Oh and Fireblast can actually lead to kills in lane, while Ignite only leads to enemies buying some more tangoes.
And that killing someone quickly is actually important to minimize the damage you get in return. A stunned enemy can't cast spells, a slowed enemy can. That's where multicasted Fireblast is better than multicasted Ignite.
I can see where people are coming from with Ignite builds, but I can't really see a situation where it is noticably better than a Fireblast build.
/rant i don't think its aoe before lvl 6
I just assumed everyone knows how ogres skillset works.
The entire thing almost doesn't matter after lvl 10, because at that point you can have both Fireblast and Ignite maxed.
Unless you are trying to invent a new meta or really want to play runny hitty ogre.
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Ignite over fireblast for me. I go Q W W E W R W then max either lust if we have 2 phy cores, or blast if we don't. Having the slow at lvl 2 + an oov is pretty much impossible to run from, and you can actually farm the jungle if you max W first which is incredibly useful in pubs. I find maxing the Q offers zero more utility beyond burst which is too unreliable until lvl 11 compared to W.
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On December 02 2014 06:40 Varth wrote:
Ignite over fireblast for me. I go Q W W E W R W then max either lust if we have 2 phy cores, or blast if we don't. Having the slow at lvl 2 + an oov is pretty much impossible to run from, and you can actually farm the jungle if you max W first which is incredibly useful in pubs. I find maxing the Q offers zero more utility beyond burst which is too unreliable until lvl 11 compared to W.
How can you not have blast maxed by level 11 though? It's an expected damage of 456 per nuke on a 8 second cooldown which is incredibly strong. With level 2 multicast each nuke level is +114 dmg on average which is really high value for an 8 second nuke. I can understand wanting bloodlust before both nukes maxed, but if that's the case I don't see how you can give up fireblast over ignite. Doubly so since the cooldown of bloodlust is pretty lackluster until at least multicast 2 so having bloodlust up on 2 core at the right moment for a fight is pretty spotty anyways.
On top of that anyone who gets a BKB before you hit level 14 will be able to negate a large amount of your damage. That happens of course in general with Ogre, but there's a big difference in that with fireblast maxed you can get someone either before the BKB or after it and deal a large amount of damage. With fireblast they'll negate the damage if you cast it before BKB and if you cast it afterwards you're talking about some seriously delayed damage on a core that needs to die and fast. One of the best parts of Ogre, especially late, is that you can throw your spells on supports while BKBs are up then still nail the carry when their bkb drops.
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EPT
