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On August 02 2014 03:06 HollowLord wrote:
Why the hell was KotL never picked at TI4
Although KotL is traditionally the go-to hero for anti-push, there were a few reasons I see that make him actually very weak.
1. A lot of the pushing is coming very early. The first tower is dropping at 4-5min into the game and the other Tier 1s usually just a few min later. Even if you prioritize your KotL a bit, he may have just picked up lvl3 by this time but then you are still too low lvl to sustain any kind of defense. KotL's anti-push doesn't really come online until he has a high lvl in both Illuminate and Chakra and there simply isn't the time/space to get there.
2. Most of the pushing at TI4 was also not dependent upon just having a massive creep wave, which is KoTL's only purpose here. He does nothing to stop a Razor/DP/rhasta wards from hitting on your towers.
3. KotL is squishy as hell and is helpless to above said heroes as well as other popular heroes like Skywrath, Brew, Doom, who can just rush at the KotL who has no defensive capabilites (no stun or silence, not even a slow).
For similar reasons, we also didn't see Lina and Jakiro, other classic lvl dependent wave clearing anti-pushers.
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Well we did see both those heroes picked although jakiro went like 1-7 or some shit.
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On August 02 2014 03:05 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 02:48 rob.au wrote:On August 01 2014 23:57 Rocket-Bear wrote:
Disruptor has pretty low solo kill potential. Bad flash farm, and bad rat / push potential. Yet I think he's like top 5 best soloqueue support heroes.
High impact would imply your hero made a big difference in the outcome of the game. And Tree is really good at that by keeping your towers alive.
But whatever. Tell all the teams who has faced PPD/Goblak's treant and say that hero does very little difference anyway el oh el. There's a difference between high impact heroes and heroes that you can potentially win nearly every game on. Disruptor is high impact, but he is pretty weak in lane and if your team loses the laning phase or early game your only option is to teamfight or gank...but the enemy heroes are stronger than you and the other team may have already proved they are better than the 4 other players on your team. If you compare him to Rhasta, he can gank better early on, and potentially create space for a losing team by pushing towers. I wouldn't say Rhasta really fits the category of potentially winning every game, but he might have more options than Disruptor. If you compare both of them to someone like QoP you can see you have more options on QoP. As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase, can solo kill people and be good at teamfights early. If you need to split push you can do so since the other team needs to commit a ton of resources to gank someone with blink. Plus she farms fast and scales reasonably well into the lategame. It means if you need to you can run around the map farming for a huge amount of time getting farm for yourself and creating space for your team. If you are really better than the MMR you are in you can get a way higher win rate with someone who can do as much as QoP than you could with Disruptor. It really just depends what you are aiming for though. Most players should be happy with anything over 50%, and playing high impact heroes like Disruptor, Tidehunter, etc... are going to get you over 50%. If you're some veteran with 6k party mmr and 3k solo, then maybe you wont be happy winning 55% of your 3k solo q games and want to pick someone like QoP to try get a 70% win rate. Disruptor is weak in lane? Rofl. Hitting from 600 range and having one of the most annoying spells in game + best spell in game ain't something to be shy of. And he's not bad in ganking because of best spell in game either, at least, not worse than Rhasta. >>As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase k Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 03:06 HollowLord wrote:
Why the hell was KotL never picked at TI4 No idea. Ignoring such waveclearing supports as CM and KotL whole tournament and seeing VG stomping people with mid-game timings whole tournament is hilarious.
Don't even know why I'm responding to an obvious dumbass but anyway.
Compared to other supports Disruptor is weak in lane, he has no burst and no hard cc. He sucks in a trilane and sucks at comboing with anyone in a dual lane. What supports do you think are worse in lane than Disruptor?
Disruptor is clearly worse than Rhasta at until at least level 3, if not 4. 3s of hard cc + higher burst from Rhasta...
QoP is solid in lane, but feel free to argue otherwise. Maybe you face Dendi on Viper or face dual lanes mid every game at 3k MMR. Even then you can survive so I have no idea.
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On August 02 2014 03:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
Well we did see both those heroes picked although jakiro went like 1-7 or some shit.
Lina got picked up once in a Na'Vi loss to C9. There wasn't really a lot of push on C9 to counter though and Lina went for a scepter.
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Thats wat i meant she was picked.
By 1-7 I meant games btw not kill score.
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On August 02 2014 04:17 rob.au wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 03:05 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On August 02 2014 02:48 rob.au wrote:On August 01 2014 23:57 Rocket-Bear wrote:
Disruptor has pretty low solo kill potential. Bad flash farm, and bad rat / push potential. Yet I think he's like top 5 best soloqueue support heroes.
High impact would imply your hero made a big difference in the outcome of the game. And Tree is really good at that by keeping your towers alive.
But whatever. Tell all the teams who has faced PPD/Goblak's treant and say that hero does very little difference anyway el oh el. There's a difference between high impact heroes and heroes that you can potentially win nearly every game on. Disruptor is high impact, but he is pretty weak in lane and if your team loses the laning phase or early game your only option is to teamfight or gank...but the enemy heroes are stronger than you and the other team may have already proved they are better than the 4 other players on your team. If you compare him to Rhasta, he can gank better early on, and potentially create space for a losing team by pushing towers. I wouldn't say Rhasta really fits the category of potentially winning every game, but he might have more options than Disruptor. If you compare both of them to someone like QoP you can see you have more options on QoP. As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase, can solo kill people and be good at teamfights early. If you need to split push you can do so since the other team needs to commit a ton of resources to gank someone with blink. Plus she farms fast and scales reasonably well into the lategame. It means if you need to you can run around the map farming for a huge amount of time getting farm for yourself and creating space for your team. If you are really better than the MMR you are in you can get a way higher win rate with someone who can do as much as QoP than you could with Disruptor. It really just depends what you are aiming for though. Most players should be happy with anything over 50%, and playing high impact heroes like Disruptor, Tidehunter, etc... are going to get you over 50%. If you're some veteran with 6k party mmr and 3k solo, then maybe you wont be happy winning 55% of your 3k solo q games and want to pick someone like QoP to try get a 70% win rate. Disruptor is weak in lane? Rofl. Hitting from 600 range and having one of the most annoying spells in game + best spell in game ain't something to be shy of. And he's not bad in ganking because of best spell in game either, at least, not worse than Rhasta. >>As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase k On August 02 2014 03:06 HollowLord wrote:
Why the hell was KotL never picked at TI4 No idea. Ignoring such waveclearing supports as CM and KotL whole tournament and seeing VG stomping people with mid-game timings whole tournament is hilarious. Don't even know why I'm responding to an obvious dumbass but anyway.
manners
On August 02 2014 04:17 rob.au wrote:
Compared to other supports Disruptor is weak in lane, he has no burst and no hard cc. He sucks in a trilane and sucks at comboing with anyone in a dual lane. What supports do you think are worse in lane than Disruptor?
Disruptor is clearly worse than Rhasta at until at least level 3, if not 4. 3s of hard cc + higher burst from Rhasta...
Disruptor is very strong in lanes.
Nyx Disruptor duo lane beats most tri lanes.
Disruptor in tri vs tri forces them to commit always otherwise someone just gets glimpsed and killed if you try to retreat from an engagement.
Disruptor nuke does more damage than rhasta level 1, his right click does more damage with longer range and he has higher movespeed. Obviously they are very different heroes but I disagree that disruptor is clearly worse than rhasta especially at low levels.
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On August 02 2014 05:13 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 04:17 rob.au wrote:On August 02 2014 03:05 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On August 02 2014 02:48 rob.au wrote:On August 01 2014 23:57 Rocket-Bear wrote:
Disruptor has pretty low solo kill potential. Bad flash farm, and bad rat / push potential. Yet I think he's like top 5 best soloqueue support heroes.
High impact would imply your hero made a big difference in the outcome of the game. And Tree is really good at that by keeping your towers alive.
But whatever. Tell all the teams who has faced PPD/Goblak's treant and say that hero does very little difference anyway el oh el. There's a difference between high impact heroes and heroes that you can potentially win nearly every game on. Disruptor is high impact, but he is pretty weak in lane and if your team loses the laning phase or early game your only option is to teamfight or gank...but the enemy heroes are stronger than you and the other team may have already proved they are better than the 4 other players on your team. If you compare him to Rhasta, he can gank better early on, and potentially create space for a losing team by pushing towers. I wouldn't say Rhasta really fits the category of potentially winning every game, but he might have more options than Disruptor. If you compare both of them to someone like QoP you can see you have more options on QoP. As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase, can solo kill people and be good at teamfights early. If you need to split push you can do so since the other team needs to commit a ton of resources to gank someone with blink. Plus she farms fast and scales reasonably well into the lategame. It means if you need to you can run around the map farming for a huge amount of time getting farm for yourself and creating space for your team. If you are really better than the MMR you are in you can get a way higher win rate with someone who can do as much as QoP than you could with Disruptor. It really just depends what you are aiming for though. Most players should be happy with anything over 50%, and playing high impact heroes like Disruptor, Tidehunter, etc... are going to get you over 50%. If you're some veteran with 6k party mmr and 3k solo, then maybe you wont be happy winning 55% of your 3k solo q games and want to pick someone like QoP to try get a 70% win rate. Disruptor is weak in lane? Rofl. Hitting from 600 range and having one of the most annoying spells in game + best spell in game ain't something to be shy of. And he's not bad in ganking because of best spell in game either, at least, not worse than Rhasta. >>As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase k On August 02 2014 03:06 HollowLord wrote:
Why the hell was KotL never picked at TI4 No idea. Ignoring such waveclearing supports as CM and KotL whole tournament and seeing VG stomping people with mid-game timings whole tournament is hilarious. Don't even know why I'm responding to an obvious dumbass but anyway. manners Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 04:17 rob.au wrote:
Compared to other supports Disruptor is weak in lane, he has no burst and no hard cc. He sucks in a trilane and sucks at comboing with anyone in a dual lane. What supports do you think are worse in lane than Disruptor?
Disruptor is clearly worse than Rhasta at until at least level 3, if not 4. 3s of hard cc + higher burst from Rhasta...
Disruptor is very strong in lanes. Nyx Disruptor duo lane beats most tri lanes. Disruptor in tri vs tri forces them to commit always otherwise someone just gets glimpsed and killed if you try to retreat from an engagement. Disruptor nuke does more damage than rhasta level 1, his right click does more damage with longer range and he has higher movespeed. Obviously they are very different heroes but I disagree that disruptor is clearly worse than rhasta especially at low levels.
Nyx Disruptor? wtf is their combo? what makes disruptor better than any other support + nyx?
If a trilane is winning with disruptor in it, it means that they would have won even harder with just about any other support.
I said Rhasta is better at ganking early, but I guess you misread that.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On August 02 2014 04:17 rob.au wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 03:05 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On August 02 2014 02:48 rob.au wrote:On August 01 2014 23:57 Rocket-Bear wrote:
Disruptor has pretty low solo kill potential. Bad flash farm, and bad rat / push potential. Yet I think he's like top 5 best soloqueue support heroes.
High impact would imply your hero made a big difference in the outcome of the game. And Tree is really good at that by keeping your towers alive.
But whatever. Tell all the teams who has faced PPD/Goblak's treant and say that hero does very little difference anyway el oh el. There's a difference between high impact heroes and heroes that you can potentially win nearly every game on. Disruptor is high impact, but he is pretty weak in lane and if your team loses the laning phase or early game your only option is to teamfight or gank...but the enemy heroes are stronger than you and the other team may have already proved they are better than the 4 other players on your team. If you compare him to Rhasta, he can gank better early on, and potentially create space for a losing team by pushing towers. I wouldn't say Rhasta really fits the category of potentially winning every game, but he might have more options than Disruptor. If you compare both of them to someone like QoP you can see you have more options on QoP. As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase, can solo kill people and be good at teamfights early. If you need to split push you can do so since the other team needs to commit a ton of resources to gank someone with blink. Plus she farms fast and scales reasonably well into the lategame. It means if you need to you can run around the map farming for a huge amount of time getting farm for yourself and creating space for your team. If you are really better than the MMR you are in you can get a way higher win rate with someone who can do as much as QoP than you could with Disruptor. It really just depends what you are aiming for though. Most players should be happy with anything over 50%, and playing high impact heroes like Disruptor, Tidehunter, etc... are going to get you over 50%. If you're some veteran with 6k party mmr and 3k solo, then maybe you wont be happy winning 55% of your 3k solo q games and want to pick someone like QoP to try get a 70% win rate. Disruptor is weak in lane? Rofl. Hitting from 600 range and having one of the most annoying spells in game + best spell in game ain't something to be shy of. And he's not bad in ganking because of best spell in game either, at least, not worse than Rhasta. >>As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase k On August 02 2014 03:06 HollowLord wrote:
Why the hell was KotL never picked at TI4 No idea. Ignoring such waveclearing supports as CM and KotL whole tournament and seeing VG stomping people with mid-game timings whole tournament is hilarious. Don't even know why I'm responding to an obvious dumbass but anyway. Compared to other supports Disruptor is weak in lane, he has no burst and no hard cc. He sucks in a trilane and sucks at comboing with anyone in a dual lane. What supports do you think are worse in lane than Disruptor? Disruptor is clearly worse than Rhasta at until at least level 3, if not 4. 3s of hard cc + higher burst from Rhasta... QoP is solid in lane, but feel free to argue otherwise. Maybe you face Dendi on Viper or face dual lanes mid every game at 3k MMR. Even then you can survive so I have no idea.
Rofl, you could at least think before typing something.
Worse than Disruptor in lane? ES, Omniknight, Wisp, SK, 50/50 against Alchemist in 2v2 based on lane partners, same with VS/Lina, better than Nyx, CM, Rhasta, THD, OM, Rubick, okay against KotL if you use brains, Warlock, Bane, Venomancer, SD, okay against Lich/Lion.
Dazzle is stronger than him, AA, Abaddon is stronger in 2v2, Visage and SM obviously, and probably, Leshrac with E max.
How sad, that at 3k mmr people have no idea about Disruptor ;/
And in trilanes Disruptor is hilariously annoying to play against, especially when people run trilanes without sustain, thinking that they're that good.
Actually, if you didn't know, Disruptor's Q is one of the most if not the most damaging skill on level 1 in game.
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The reason I would pick Rhasta in solo queue is because of his ability to solo split push with wards. Pubs deal badly with split push and a Rhasta can have a big impact on a game simply split pushing with Aghs into Refresh without ever interacting with a teammate once. That's the biggest reason anyone should suggest this hero in solo-queue, that you are not entirely reliant on teammates (of course you are still counting on your teammates to teamfight/get caught on the other side of the map).
Rhasta is actually really weak in a trilane. His nuke is great but his disables are pretty crappy for trilane standards, all single-target and one of them is channeling. Unless their team has limited disables or is retarded, you'll never actually chain your combo.
( Pro tip for all you people new to trilanes, if you see someone get initiated upon in your lane, don't panic and just stun the enemy closest to your teammate. After the first guy has used his stun, ignore him and stun the next guy who is supposed to chain some sort of combo. Usually that break in the combo alone is enough to halt the aggression )
Anyways, I don't like Rhasta as a ganker in general, mostly because of that shitty movespeed and channeling shackle. While Disrupter doesn't have hard disables, he can constantly be right clicking and improving his positioning throughout the gank and I feel ganking in higher skilled games is more about positioning rather than just having disables. I can see circumstances where either hero could have an advantage though. Neither is clearly better than the other at any stage of the game except lvl1.
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shaman doesnt get strong until he has items and levels. disruptor needs neither to be effective. for a solo q pub game disruptor is much easier to be higher impact if you are the support.
if you are playing with other people shaman is stronger. hence the much higher wr in competitive games compared to pub games.
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Rhasta has high solo kill and push potential, but wants much more exp and gold than Disruptor.
The problem I would have with Disruptor in low mmr is that trusting your teammates is hard. If for some reason the team is entirely dysfunctional and keep losing teamfights(for whatever reason, really), then Disruptor has no plan B.
IF, and that is a big if, if you are much better than everyone else you get matched with, you will have a higher win rate with Rhasta.
Then again the majority of people think they are better than they actually are, so take this with a grain of salt.
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On August 02 2014 05:36 rob.au wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2014 05:13 Jaeger wrote:On August 02 2014 04:17 rob.au wrote:On August 02 2014 03:05 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On August 02 2014 02:48 rob.au wrote:On August 01 2014 23:57 Rocket-Bear wrote:
Disruptor has pretty low solo kill potential. Bad flash farm, and bad rat / push potential. Yet I think he's like top 5 best soloqueue support heroes.
High impact would imply your hero made a big difference in the outcome of the game. And Tree is really good at that by keeping your towers alive.
But whatever. Tell all the teams who has faced PPD/Goblak's treant and say that hero does very little difference anyway el oh el. There's a difference between high impact heroes and heroes that you can potentially win nearly every game on. Disruptor is high impact, but he is pretty weak in lane and if your team loses the laning phase or early game your only option is to teamfight or gank...but the enemy heroes are stronger than you and the other team may have already proved they are better than the 4 other players on your team. If you compare him to Rhasta, he can gank better early on, and potentially create space for a losing team by pushing towers. I wouldn't say Rhasta really fits the category of potentially winning every game, but he might have more options than Disruptor. If you compare both of them to someone like QoP you can see you have more options on QoP. As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase, can solo kill people and be good at teamfights early. If you need to split push you can do so since the other team needs to commit a ton of resources to gank someone with blink. Plus she farms fast and scales reasonably well into the lategame. It means if you need to you can run around the map farming for a huge amount of time getting farm for yourself and creating space for your team. If you are really better than the MMR you are in you can get a way higher win rate with someone who can do as much as QoP than you could with Disruptor. It really just depends what you are aiming for though. Most players should be happy with anything over 50%, and playing high impact heroes like Disruptor, Tidehunter, etc... are going to get you over 50%. If you're some veteran with 6k party mmr and 3k solo, then maybe you wont be happy winning 55% of your 3k solo q games and want to pick someone like QoP to try get a 70% win rate. Disruptor is weak in lane? Rofl. Hitting from 600 range and having one of the most annoying spells in game + best spell in game ain't something to be shy of. And he's not bad in ganking because of best spell in game either, at least, not worse than Rhasta. >>As QoP you can't really get shut down in laning phase k On August 02 2014 03:06 HollowLord wrote:
Why the hell was KotL never picked at TI4 No idea. Ignoring such waveclearing supports as CM and KotL whole tournament and seeing VG stomping people with mid-game timings whole tournament is hilarious. Don't even know why I'm responding to an obvious dumbass but anyway. manners On August 02 2014 04:17 rob.au wrote:
Compared to other supports Disruptor is weak in lane, he has no burst and no hard cc. He sucks in a trilane and sucks at comboing with anyone in a dual lane. What supports do you think are worse in lane than Disruptor?
Disruptor is clearly worse than Rhasta at until at least level 3, if not 4. 3s of hard cc + higher burst from Rhasta...
Disruptor is very strong in lanes. Nyx Disruptor duo lane beats most tri lanes. Disruptor in tri vs tri forces them to commit always otherwise someone just gets glimpsed and killed if you try to retreat from an engagement. Disruptor nuke does more damage than rhasta level 1, his right click does more damage with longer range and he has higher movespeed. Obviously they are very different heroes but I disagree that disruptor is clearly worse than rhasta especially at low levels. Nyx Disruptor? wtf is their combo? what makes disruptor better than any other support + nyx?
Glimpse. Disruptor is one of the most abusive positioning heroes in the game. Once his lane initiates glimpse is a guaranteed kill, especially once it hits level 3 with it's ridiculous range.
Once he has mana to support kinetic field + glimpse spam it becomes trivial to break up the other team's positioning advantage. Also very easy to create space near towers with field vs non-blink heroes.
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what was sandkings ability before sandstorm? I can't recall it.
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On August 02 2014 14:54 SilverSkyLark wrote:
what was sandkings ability before sandstorm? I can't recall it.
Darude.
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United States12281 Posts
Depleted Uranium. Powerful projectile actually used frequently in modern tanks. A lot of players miss this old ability though, so often when Sandstorm is used, Twitch viewers will spam chat with DUDUDUDUDUDUDU.
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Seriously guys. Hahaha. I remember he had Burrowstrike before in Dota 1. He also had Caustic Finale which was skilled to farm faster, I can't remember his third skill. It can't be Impale cuz he'll get 2 stuns. I doubt it's depleted Uranium. Did he have Sandstrom already from waaaaay back?
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he had those 3 spells for atleast 5 years other than that i dont recall
i mean i could check liquipedia then again that takes me 5 seconds so writing the answer has already been longer
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is ember a hard counter to PL? (2-3k pubs)
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United States47024 Posts
On August 02 2014 19:21 teddyoojo wrote:
he had those 3 spells for atleast 5 years other than that i dont recall
i mean i could check liquipedia then again that takes me 5 seconds so writing the answer has already been longer
Liquipedia's patch history only goes back to 6.48 anyway, since IIRC it's taken from the hero change compilation thread on PlayDota IIRC.
Sand King's had Sandstorm since I started seriously playing DotA in 6.37 (released 2006). So if you really remember a version where he didn't have Sandstorm, you're either mis-remembering or thinking of some super old DotA version.
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Playdota has some old patchnotes of as far back as 5xx. They are probably incomplete though, as Icefrog didn't always document every change(old version - new version) as extensive as he does nowadays.
I suspect some changes haven't even been documented. I could swear PotM(Mirana) was added between 6.32 and 6.34
www.playdota.com
Thought I'd share.
edit: Apparently I can't? Are playdota links blocked or is there something I'm missing?
One should be able to find the list by googling "changelogs from 6.47 to 5.72"
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EPT
