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On February 28 2013 07:22 Nevuk wrote:
Weren't there quite a few games a while back with supports pulling the easy camp for the radiant mid? (I mean even after the leash time changes)
it's a lot more difficult now, but certainly still possible. watch ixmike from Team Liquid vs 3D!Clan in The Premier League a few nights ago to see how he did it.
here's the vod!
http://www.twitch.tv/thepremierleague/b/371319717
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I'm aware of the 3 branches + Tango fast Bottle start for mid, but lately I've been trying supplementing it with a Stout Shield when I'm a melee going up against an orb walker (e.g. I'm Nyx or Magnus facing Clinkz or Huskar). It seems to work out okay, but I'm wondering if it's worth not just spending all my starting gold in this case, given that I'm longer able to get my Bottle by the 2 minute rune anyway. Is it something other people have tried?
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On February 28 2013 09:06 GentleDrill wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm aware of the 3 branches + Tango fast Bottle start for mid, but lately I've been trying supplementing it with a Stout Shield when I'm a melee going up against an orb walker (e.g. I'm Nyx or Magnus facing Clinkz or Huskar). It seems to work out okay, but I'm wondering if it's worth not just spending all my starting gold in this case, given that I'm longer able to get my Bottle by the 2 minute rune anyway. Is it something other people have tried?
The timing for bottle is pretty dependent on rune spawn times. A 2:15 bottle may as well be a 3:45 bottle since they both miss the first rune spawn. Tango and 3 branches leaves you with 450-ish gold in your inventory, leaving you only 3-4 last hits from bottle, but stout shield costs around 5-6 last hits worth of gold leaving you about 10 CS from bottle, which will probably cause you to miss the first rune spawn, unless your farm is perfect. As such, it really depends on the hero your facing, and how much hurt they can put on you at the beginning of the game, but the safe route is probably to buy some extra regen, like a salve or an extra set of tangoes, just to ensure you dont get in the awkward spot of running out of regen, and getting forced off the lane so you can't farm up your bottle. Also, while bottle does bring a boost of regen when you first get it, bringing enough regen to lane mitigates your need for this. Its true beauty is the ability for you to refill it from runes and fountain, allowing you to spam spells and trade hits more effectively, and specifically use your spells more freely in lane for both harass and lane control.
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In pubs i play faceless void and I usually get battlefury. My question is, in what minute mark should I already have
battlefury, boots and slippers of agility? Assuming I'm in the safelane.
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On February 28 2013 11:53 Discarder wrote:
In pubs i play faceless void and I usually get battlefury. My question is, in what minute mark should I already have
battlefury, boots and slippers of agility? Assuming I'm in the safelane.
Why would you have a slipper of agility at all? If you aren't taking harass in lane then just don't bother with PMS at all. Six agility is nice, but 300 gold is almost a minute faster battlefury in the case that you don't actually need it.
In a free farm lane I think 13 minutes is a good guesstimate though assuming you're skipping treads for the faster battlefury.
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if it's an easy lane bfury + treads should be going up in around 15~18 minutes, earlier if you can get some kills
18~20 is usually more reasonable for a pub game
subtract 4~5 minutes if you're skipping treads
also you should be opening tango hppot branch*3 shield the vast majority of the time, so u shouldn't have slippers of agility
also a 2:15 bottle lets you bottle crow before the next rune spawns
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im not a big fan of battlefury first/or at all on void. . i prefer to get a fast midas into watever i feel like building (i prefer maelstrom or crit over bf)
but for a bf rush you should have it by 12mins unless the game is hard. and if the game is hard you you shouldnt be going bf anyways.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On February 28 2013 13:54 aintz wrote:
im not a big fan of battlefury first/or at all on void. . i prefer to get a fast midas into watever i feel like building (i prefer maelstrom or crit over bf)
but for a bf rush you should have it by 12mins unless the game is hard. and if the game is hard you you shouldnt be going bf anyways.
Disagreeing with you here on two fronts. While perfectly doable, 12 minutes (translating into around 5.5 CS/minute) is quite exceptional for a pub game, especially since lower-level games don't run trilanes. With Void being not the strongest weak laner, an enemy dual lane can slow down and disrupt his farm easily enough.
Also, the cleave from Battlefury not only opens up farming potential to generate a potential tempo swing, but also deals extra damage to clumped units within a Chronosphere.
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On February 28 2013 09:38 Dr. Dumptruck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 09:06 GentleDrill wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm aware of the 3 branches + Tango fast Bottle start for mid, but lately I've been trying supplementing it with a Stout Shield when I'm a melee going up against an orb walker (e.g. I'm Nyx or Magnus facing Clinkz or Huskar). It seems to work out okay, but I'm wondering if it's worth not just spending all my starting gold in this case, given that I'm longer able to get my Bottle by the 2 minute rune anyway. Is it something other people have tried? The timing for bottle is pretty dependent on rune spawn times. A 2:15 bottle may as well be a 3:45 bottle since they both miss the first rune spawn. Tango and 3 branches leaves you with 450-ish gold in your inventory, leaving you only 3-4 last hits from bottle, but stout shield costs around 5-6 last hits worth of gold leaving you about 10 CS from bottle, which will probably cause you to miss the first rune spawn, unless your farm is perfect. As such, it really depends on the hero your facing, and how much hurt they can put on you at the beginning of the game, but the safe route is probably to buy some extra regen, like a salve or an extra set of tangoes, just to ensure you dont get in the awkward spot of running out of regen, and getting forced off the lane so you can't farm up your bottle. Also, while bottle does bring a boost of regen when you first get it, bringing enough regen to lane mitigates your need for this. Its true beauty is the ability for you to refill it from runes and fountain, allowing you to spam spells and trade hits more effectively, and specifically use your spells more freely in lane for both harass and lane control.
That being said, on a lot of melee heroes where you don't need the initial health and mana from the branches as much (think melee mids with large HP pools to start like Magnus or something) it's a totally valid option to open with no branches, stout shield and tango - still leaves you with 250g toward bottle as opposed to 350 meaning it's totally reasonable to get it by first rune spawn. Mostly for hard lanes where you're going to be taking a ton of right click harass - ie. a Clinkz or Huskar or Drow who will orbwalk you to death before you can even get your bottle without stout shield.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On February 28 2013 13:54 aintz wrote:
im not a big fan of battlefury first/or at all on void. . i prefer to get a fast midas into watever i feel like building (i prefer maelstrom or crit over bf)
but for a bf rush you should have it by 12mins unless the game is hard. and if the game is hard you you shouldnt be going bf anyways.
Typical flameboy. 'Are you new to dota/low mmr? Ok, get battlefury by 12 minutes or you're bad and shouldn't get it at all.'
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When do the trees grow back after being cut? When you stand on the growing spot in the moment they are growing and then move away, will it immediately grow or in the next "spawntime"?
Asking because of chain pulling in radiant jungle.
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Get Treads before Battle Fury on Void, leave timewalk at level 2, maybe 3. With just that and a leveled-up timelock you can get a kill at least once every time your Chrono is up. Unless you're playing at a high enough level where people actually pick strong laners and know how to harass you can probably skip Stout Shield entirely in favor of a faster RoH.
IMO you buy the three branches and your tango+salve and then you can get your shield or a QB from there depending on the lane you have. As dead9 stated 15-18 mins is a decent time for treads+bfury in pub.
The tougher question is what do you get from here if the game is already going downhill. You want attackspeed to have sufficient DPS to kill heroes in your Chrono but typically I find that I need some HP here and now to get back into midgame fights without dying. Point booster is an option if you plan on Aghanim's later otherwise you're probably looking at an Ogre Axe if BKB seems necessary at some point. After that you really need that Yasha to catch up on your offensive capability.
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How do you play SF?
In DOTA1 i could use SF...in DOTA2 the slightest twitch and i miss my razes. And the animation seems to be damn slow...
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Fast-razing is more difficult in dota2. Either you time it right when his hands are up in the air and chain-razes that way(but the slightest mistake can make the raze slower/of different speed than you would like), or just spam the button and hope you get the timing right.
yxxcc doesn't work anymore for some reason. As far as direction goes it feels the same to me, maybe you're still used to WC3's engine?
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Last time I was told that 2 melee heros in a lane is generally bad to play. My question this time is, if you are playing a melee support like earthshaker, sand king, tidehunter, etc., how are you meant to harass? Are you usually just paired up with a ranged hero on the hard lane, or are you meant to play a trilane configuration? How does your role differ from a ranged support?
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On February 28 2013 23:28 Nazza wrote:
Last time I was told that 2 melee heros in a lane is generally bad to play. My question this time is, if you are playing a melee support like earthshaker, sand king, tidehunter, etc., how are you meant to harass? Are you usually just paired up with a ranged hero on the hard lane, or are you meant to play a trilane configuration? How does your role differ from a ranged support?
It depends. In general melee supports prefer to either burst the hell out of someone with certain combos or otherwise farm the pull since most of them are pretty farm dependent.
If there is no way to burst the enemy down they usually have a hard time zoning people, depending on what you're running in your lane, so, yeah: Ideally you want to trilane most of them or abuse certain strong combos (AA+ES comes to mind) that can easily rape people in 2n2 lanes.
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On February 28 2013 23:28 Nazza wrote:
Last time I was told that 2 melee heros in a lane is generally bad to play. My question this time is, if you are playing a melee support like earthshaker, sand king, tidehunter, etc., how are you meant to harass? Are you usually just paired up with a ranged hero on the hard lane, or are you meant to play a trilane configuration? How does your role differ from a ranged support?
2 Melee heroes in lane is generally bad because they can get zoned out pretty fast & easily. In the situation you guys do have to run 2 melee in lane, i hope both of you have some sort of spells to synergize as a combo to kill people. If not the laning phase is just a bust.
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why would you suggest backtrack at lvl 1 in your guide?
10% chance to dodge attacks is hardly a reason to get it at lvl 1, when you could get either timewalk or timelock for a first blood attempt or to run away. if there arent any ganks to run from or engage in then getting timelock, just for the harrass potential and maybe helping with last hits if you mistime an attack and get lucky on the stun, is more important.
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On February 28 2013 22:56 Andr3 wrote:
Fast-razing is more difficult in dota2. Either you time it right when his hands are up in the air and chain-razes that way(but the slightest mistake can make the raze slower/of different speed than you would like), or just spam the button and hope you get the timing right.
yxxcc doesn't work anymore for some reason. As far as direction goes it feels the same to me, maybe you're still used to WC3's engine?
Yep I cant get the old super quick razes. SF feel slow doing his trademark razes now. The direction is definitely way more sensitive than it was in DOTA1 for me. My SF cant do much even in a Bot game testing it. I feel useless using SF, ends up he just become a right clicker for me.
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EPT
