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On December 10 2012 04:37 njt7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 08:10 Unleashing wrote:On December 09 2012 06:51 njt7 wrote:On December 08 2012 09:10 evilfatsh1t wrote:On December 07 2012 22:03 njt7 wrote:On December 07 2012 13:48 evilfatsh1t wrote:
I agree with dropping bloodstone
ideally you should go phase and euls for the movespeed. bloodstone on top of that gives you a whole bunch of useless stats besides the hp and hp regen. the mana and mana regen isn't needed because you won't run out assuming there's at least 1 arcane boots holder and you still have your bottle. 110 mana for swarm plus 90? for silence and a couple hundred for ultimate still leaves a huge amount of mana for your swarm spam mid game. don't agree with the above build (yasha and to a lesser extent drums) however, because dp isn't tiny. getting yasha solely for movespeed purposes isn't a worthy investment. drums is a decent item but the speed dp farms at with his swarm and ultimate allows her to go for a bigger item quicker without losing effectiveness early. just don't get over confident with your ultimate early on and rambo in, position yourself decently and you should survive early game skirmishes allowing yourself to save up for a bigger item. shivas, heart, pipe, hex or even skadi would be better imo The lvl 4 swarm is actually 165. It is quite a lot. One pair of arcane boots will barely let you cast one more swarm each 55:e second. big mana regen is really important to not run out of mana during a drawn out fight. Euls is awesome on death prophet sure. But I still think bloodstone is really good for her. You are supposed to push and win rather early with her. You are supposed to be the main target for the enemy team when going 5v5. Having bloodstone will boost your team if they actually manage to kill you. And if they do you will respawn shortly because of the reduced respawn time with some charges letting you comeback into the fight before your enemies respawn to push those precious raxes. I think bloodstone is needed because it fits so well with the way you are supposed to play her. Force the issue and push their base everytime your ult is off cd. With witchcraft it is 110. At lvl 9 and 11 you will have roughly 1000mana and at the very least half a euls. Fights at those levels dont last long enough for you to deplete your mana especially if you have a bottle at later lvls your swarm spam isnt enough to deplete your mana because by then you have a euls already and perhaps a shivas or hex. on paper 110 mana being constantly spammed looks like it calls for a bloodstone but the fact is when you actually play, there are times when youre just not in lane and a euls solves all your mana problems in that time https://dotabuff.com/heroes/death-prophet/items What point are you trying to make? bloodstone > euls for death prophet. But both are good!
win% doesn't tell you anything about items
radiance, manta, and bfly are at the top
it just tells you that players that finish expensive items tend to win games, which isn't very surprising
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On the Krob discussion: My two cents is that Bloodstone doesn't give what DP needs. She needs tankiness, and that's about it. With bloodstone, you're sinking a lot into mana/mana regen and the charges aren't too useful when you have no escape, so there is no way you can be sure you'll keep them. If you have mana problems with DP, build a soul ring. It is hands down the only thing you need to make up for mana costs. So what do you build instead of bloodstone? It depends how well you're doing. In most AP games I'll have farmed up fast enough to just go straight heart, and 2.2k hp 18 minutes in really sucks for the other team. If you can't get a heart quickly then it makes sense to delay it and go for midgame items like drum, mek, or Eul's if you're really getting destroyed. I still think Eul's is a gimmicky item because it's not real survivability, it just delays your death for 2.5 seconds. You can't stand in a fight for its entire duration if all you have is a Eul's.
Source: While I don't enjoy playing Krob as much as other heros, she has the highest winrate for any hero I've played more than 10 games with: https://dotabuff.com/players/32507375
For a few matches to back that up: https://dotabuff.com/matches/74094750 <- didn't get optimal farm, so I went Mek after Vit-booster and finished heart later. My KDA wasn't so great, but I contributed.
https://dotabuff.com/matches/70808451 <- 16/3 with the above snowballing build.
https://dotabuff.com/matches/49431246 <- very stressful game in which my heart start went well, but because of how hard Krob can fall off my KDA isn't as flashy as the above game. Nevertheless, I transitioned into support items (pipe/BoT/gem) and provided enough space for Spectre and LD to carry us.
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Saying that win% does not tell you anything about items does not make any sense. And for this particular case it tells a lot because Bloodstone has been used about five times more then any other item that has an above average win rate and it still maintains above 70%.
The more an item is used the closer to 50% it is supposed to get because it is then used by a wider range of players in a wider range of skill levels. This item is used so fucking much that the statistics tells a big story.
To get something out of these statistics look at matches played and see what items are used much but still mantain a high win rate.
On December 07 2012 02:50 TheSubtleArt wrote:
What items should i get as death prophet to remain competitive in the late game? It seems like she doesnt scale well with other heros once all the abilities are maxed.
Dream inventory would be(most used items > 70%) Bloodstone, Heart, Shiva's, Travels, Schyte, "Mystic Staff".
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On December 09 2012 07:09 whereismymind wrote:
Every time I go to lane and try to farm as Huskar, they hardly harass me.. My company is Death Prophet, but he just can't do anything.. Combination was Axe + drow.
What to do in that case? Is only gank solution or? This is question for any hero.. And I play pub so I can't actually count on other players so much, so what should I do by myself the best? This is hard lane..
"My company is Death Prophet" is your main issue here. DP is not a support, and provides very little space that Huskar needs to farm. Other than that, it's difficult to tell what your issue may be without seeing you play, but huskar is a hero you man up with. If you trade damage in lane while Drow is orb-walking you, you'll be surprised at how low she'll get.
(If you didn't know, orb-walking is when you manually cast a unique attack modifier on an opponent. Because this counts as a spell cast, you won't draw aggro from creeps or towers. This can be done with both burning spears and frost arrows).
On December 10 2012 08:50 njt7 wrote:
Saying that win% does not tell you anything about items does not make any sense. And for this particular case it tells a lot because Bloodstone has been used about five times more then any other item that has an above average win rate and it still maintains above 70%.
There's a difference between "going for an item" and "getting an item". The reason items like Bloodstone and Heart are so high is because most of the games you lose going for those items, you don't get them, or are forced into building something else. It's also build a lot because it's recommended-core. Reasons like this is why you should never base your item builds off of DotaBuff.
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Except going bottle-> phase->Perseverance->Point Booster is really stress free and one of the smothest item transitions.
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On December 10 2012 08:50 njt7 wrote:
Saying that win% does not tell you anything about items does not make any sense. And for this particular case it tells a lot because Bloodstone has been used about five times more then any other item that has an above average win rate and it still maintains above 70%.
The more an item is used the closer to 50% it is supposed to get because it is then used by a wider range of players in a wider range of skill levels. This item is used so fucking much that the statistics tells a big story.
To get something out of these statistics look at matches played and see what items are used much but still mantain a high win rate.
do you know how the win% on items in dotabuff works?
it only looks at your final inventory, so it doesn't take into account all the games where players went for bloodstone and failed to finish it. basically if you finish expensive items bloodstone that means you had enough income to finish big items and then you won
soul booster has a 40% winrate and perse/point booster have a 30% winrate because that's what happens when you can't finish big items
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I know, but in the case when you are not able to finish your Bloodstone I do not think much else would have helped you either. And the main question was what he needed for maintaining late game presence.
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yeah, all the statistic really tells you is that dprophets who do well almost always buy bloodstone.
(I like bloodstone on dp btw)
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On December 10 2012 09:01 njt7 wrote:
Except going bottle-> phase->Perseverance->Point Booster is really stress free and one of the smothest item transitions.
Okay, because this argument is going nowhere, I'm going to go a bit more in-depth with your single-line reply to my post.
When you pan out what you're building on a hero, you ask three questions:
1) What problems of the hero am I solving?
2) What strengths of the hero am I augmenting?
3) How much does it all cost?
With Krob, you can answer the first question with a soul ring. Every other crypt swarm now costs no mana at all, and for only 800 gold. Your proposed solution relys on A) rune control from bottle and B), a 875 cost void stone that doesn't do a whole lot without int items.
Going off of that, #2 is answered with the following: Krob deals awesome damage in a teamfight with only levels in her ult, and the only limiting factor is how long you're in the middle of the enemy team. In the early game, you augment your strengths by building flat HP. In terms of efficiency, your opening build goes for a 1200 gold item for 200 hp, while the early vit booster is 100 cheaper for 50 more hp. The mana you get from point booster, and even the HP regen from perseverance is going to absolute waste.
As for #3: At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how many "Base components" our two options have, as HP is the only thing we're concerned with and you build the vit booster last (that's an assumption, I know). Both items have very similar gold costs in the end, with heart providing twice the flat HP.
Now, as much as I'd hate to pull this card, I got so impatient when I saw a one-line counter-argument that I looked you up on DotaBuff and, assuming you use the same ID, you have TWO GAMES as Krobelus. I don't know where your arguments are coming from, but you don't have much leverage if the only reply you can make doesn't even address the points made in my initial post.
On December 10 2012 09:12 njt7 wrote:
I know, but in the case when you are not able to finish your Bloodstone I do not think much else would have helped you either. And the main question was what he needed for maintaining late game presence.
In absolute lategame, sell the Bloodstone unless you have 20+charges, there are better items. My optimal ending inventory would be something like: BoT, Heart, Shiva's, Pipe OR AC, Deso, Sheep. Survivability thourgh flat HP combined with armor, mres, and the Shiva's aura with the godly-sheep and a little negative armor to improve your ulti's damage.
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On December 10 2012 09:12 njt7 wrote:
I know, but in the case when you are not able to finish your Bloodstone I do not think much else would have helped you either. And the main question was what he needed for maintaining late game presence.
really now?
if you want to look in terms of raw winrate, mek has a 60% winrate and it's half the price of bloodstone
jango and euls also have a 60% winrate
also, the main question isn't what dp needs to maintain late game presence (hint: the answer is way more money than the other team), we were talking about how strong bloodstone is as a first item
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It is getting late but can pick this up tomorrow but I dont want to leave you frustrated. The thread is called Simple questions, simple answers. Thats why I wanted to try to keep it short. To me who have played dota/hon* on and off for about 10 years on different levels, ranging from publics to competetive. Bloodstone is the simple answer Back in my days everyone played Necrolyte and Death prophet instead of Magnus and Sven. The Bloodstone for Death Prophet is like Black King Bar for Sven. Bloodstone is the simple answer. It does of course not work in all cases but everyone who played abit of dota should know that. Bloodstone is the general rule.
When you pan out what you're building on a hero, you ask three questions:
1) What problems of the hero am I solving?
2) What strengths of the hero am I augmenting?
3) How much does it all cost?
1) We need to solve that Death prophet is very mana intensive. You should cast silence and swarm and ulti as soon as it is off cd. You should always be fighting(pushing). The ulti does massive dmg if you are able to hit people that are actually standing still. But the main damage to heroes comes from your swarm. With only a heart you will only have the ability to pop ult and a couple of swarms in a fight. But with Charged bloodstone you can cast everything you have endlessly.
2)^
3)5005
The thing people seem to miss out on is that you actually get experience when you are dead aswell as heal your allies for 400 HP + 30 HP per charge. With 10 charges that is 700 hp. It really helps. As well as reducing your GOLD lost when dying. As well as reducing your time spent dead. It is the best item to get first to get another bigger item later(heart).
I am not saying other items are bad. But your suggestion of rushing heart just is not right. In some cases you might even get your heart faster if you buy a bloodstone first.
Ps. you are not supposed to stand in the middle of the fight you are supposed to be on the outskirt spamming them with swarm your ulti has a range of 700 longer then all heroes except sniper.
 eath Prophet is called Defiler
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bloodstone was way better before it was nerfed
honestly bloodstone isn't that bad, but it's weaker when compared to cheaper teamfight items like arcanes + mek + jango
with just arcanes you already have enough mana for 20~30 seconds of spamming your spells constantly, which should be more than enough in most cases
edit: also, since bloodstone got nerfed, phase was also nerfed, which is a big deal considering most of the old bloodstone heroes don't have very much armor
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United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2012 09:43 njt7 wrote:
Ps. you are not supposed to stand in the middle of the fight you are supposed to be on the outskirt spamming them with swarm your ulti has a range of 700 longer then all heroes except sniper.
If you are playing DP as a back-line hero, you are wasting two of the major defining components of her ultimate:
a) the tremendous healing component in drawn-out engagements
b) it's extremely powerful siege potential
DP allows a team to siege high ground towers by allowing her to go up, pop her ultimate, and let her spirits wail on the high ground tower while her team waits safely behind her to counter-initiate if the enemy tries to kill her. If she has enough survivability to last through the initial burst and back off, she can re-engage as she gets topped up to full from Mek, Heart regen, and later, her ultimate. But in order to do that at all, she needs to have the survivability to survive the entire first round of abilities from the enemy team and successfully disengage.
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Yes they both fit her worse then before but I still think they are both the best starting items for her. You need Phase to kite and you need Bloodstone to spam. The only reason I see for getting Arcane boots on her would be to build into a Bloodstone later not sure what your point is with those.
I dont really follow the logic some arguments are against bloodstone because it is expensive but the only reasonable substitution for it that is suggested is Heart which is even more expensive and even more akward to build..
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On December 10 2012 10:05 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 09:43 njt7 wrote:
Ps. you are not supposed to stand in the middle of the fight you are supposed to be on the outskirt spamming them with swarm your ulti has a range of 700 longer then all heroes except sniper.
If you are playing DP as a back-line hero, you are wasting two of the major defining components of her ultimate: a) the tremendous healing component in drawn-out engagements b) it's extremely powerful siege potential DP allows a team to siege high ground towers by allowing her to go up, pop her ultimate, and let her spirits wail on the high ground tower while her team waits safely behind her to counter-initiate if the enemy tries to kill her. If she has enough survivability to last through the initial burst and back off, she can re-engage as she gets topped up to full from Mek, Heart regen, and later, her ultimate. But in order to do that at all, she needs to have the survivability to survive the entire first round of abilities from the enemy team and successfully disengage.
You can hit the tower from max range aswell. Yes you are supposed to be the main target for the enemy team but you dont have to make it easy for them.
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phase is okay but arcanes is much more useful when you're pushing towers with your team
either way jango's just as good, plus the aura and stats help out
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Okay lets get back on topic:-
How do you guys maintain Empower buff on magnus & another hero. I keep forgetting to buff it. I am pretty sure you can have Empower on 2 heroes at any 1 time...but I find myself forgetting about that skill a LOT...even if i remember,when it expires i didnt even notice (yeah only 3games as Magnus,liking him so far)
Any tips/tricks?
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On December 10 2012 11:10 Mithhaike wrote:
Okay lets get back on topic:-
How do you guys maintain Empower buff on magnus & another hero. I keep forgetting to buff it. I am pretty sure you can have Empower on 2 heroes at any 1 time...but I find myself forgetting about that skill a LOT...even if i remember,when it expires i didnt even notice (yeah only 3games as Magnus,liking him so far)
Any tips/tricks?
Keep it on cooldown 100% of the time is probably the easiest way, alternating three heroes.
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United States47024 Posts
It's actually 3 heroes. 12 sec CD, 40 sec duration.
And yeah, it's as Blitz said. Just rotate heroes in your head and keep the skill on CD. If you can't remember to do it every 12 seconds, then just practice till it's second nature. Not really any special tricks to it.
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On December 10 2012 11:10 Mithhaike wrote:
Okay lets get back on topic:-
How do you guys maintain Empower buff on magnus & another hero. I keep forgetting to buff it. I am pretty sure you can have Empower on 2 heroes at any 1 time...but I find myself forgetting about that skill a LOT...even if i remember,when it expires i didnt even notice (yeah only 3games as Magnus,liking him so far)
Any tips/tricks?
Set a timer if you have such bad mechanics.
Alternatively, set it on autocast
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EPT
