EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 239
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
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canikizu
4860 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 18 2012 06:04 Fruscainte wrote: I was talking to some steam friends yesterday and one was saying that he began getting Mek on semi-carries lately, what are thoughts on this? I always looked at Mek as like, a first support item for heroes such as Lich or something. I never really thought to get it on heroes like Kunkka, Undying, Centaur. Said he even likes getting it on Natures Prophet for dat enhanced pushing. I mean, I always had the perception of it being used basically, like I said before, on mostly INT heroes to support their team as I felt STR heroes needed other items in greater priority. Someone mind explaining this for me? Kunkka and Centaur are strange Mek holders because they generally don't have have the mana to use it (the have mediocre mana pools with lots of spells they want to cast, and generally don't want to buy Arcane Boots or similar mana-buffering items). Undying is pretty typical as a Mek carrier. So is Furion. Both have the mana to support it, and both are generally going to be able to use it at a good time for the team (Furion because Teleport allows him to enter the fight with whatever positioning he chooses, and Undying because he's going to be extremely tanky regardless. On November 18 2012 07:43 canikizu wrote: Unless you want to do some mek timing push, it's not really a good idea to get mek on some carry/semi-carry because each of those heroes usually needs a specific items to make them really strong, and getting mek will delay those items quite a bit. The thing is, a lot of those heroes would be itemizing a survivability item in the 1500-2500 gold range anyway (Vanguard, Hood, Janggo, etc.), and unless your team already has one, Mek is almost always better for this purpose. 2306 for 5 all-stats, 5 armor, and an additional 250 HP + 2 armor already blows many of the comparable items out of the water even if you never used it to heal anyone but yourself. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 18 2012 07:54 TheYango wrote: The thing is, a lot of those heroes would be itemizing a survivability item in the 1500-2500 gold range anyway (Vanguard, Hood, Janggo, etc.), and unless your team already has one, Mek is almost always better for this purpose. 2306 for 5 all-stats, 5 armor, and an additional 250 HP + 2 armor already blows many of the comparable items out of the water even if you never used it to heal anyone but yourself. So would you really want to get mek on TA, Brewmaster, Puck, Magmus instead of blinkdagger? or mek on Invoker, qop, storm spirit instead of mana regen items? or mek on Night Stalker, Chaos Knight instead of tanky items? In theory, Mek is always a good items on everybody for the cost, noone can deny it, but semi-carry heroes are those who always need specific items to make them really shine, Going mek just because your team don't have it is not a good enough reason. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 18 2012 08:47 canikizu wrote: So would you really want to get mek on TA, Brewmaster, Puck, Magmus instead of blinkdagger? Blink Dagger isn't a survivability item, so naturally Mek doesn't replace it. On November 18 2012 08:47 canikizu wrote: or mek on Invoker, qop, storm spirit instead of mana regen items? or mek on Night Stalker, Chaos Knight instead of tanky items? None of these heroes have the mana to spare to actually use a mek. Mek is good on semicarries when they 1) would be buying a similar survivability item anyway but the team doesn't have a Mek yet, and 2) have the mana to use it. You listed a bunch of semicarries who either aren't getting a survivability item first, or don't have the mana to use a Mek reliably and called them counterexamples--when nobody is actually arguing that you should get Mek on those heroes. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
If yes and you have crit, can an orb effect on an ethereal unit crit? | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
... Way to totally ignore what I wrote Blink Dagger isn't a survivability item, so naturally Mek doesn't replace it. Blinkdagger isn't a survivability item, sure, but those heroes qualify your point (need survivability item and have good mana pool), but some items (in this case blinkdagger) is too big of an item for those semi-carry/high impact heroes to opt out to get mek just because team doesn't have it. On November 18 2012 09:05 TheYango wrote: Mek is good on semicarries when they 1) would be buying a similar survivability item anyway but the team doesn't have a Mek yet, and 2) have the mana to use it. You listed a bunch of semicarries who either aren't getting a survivability item first, or don't have the mana to use a Mek reliably and called them counterexamples--when nobody is actually arguing that you should get Mek on those heroes. Can you list some semi-carries that need survivality items and have enough mana to cast mek? Please don't list DarkSeer, Death Prophet, Shadow Fiend because people have been going mek on them forever, and people get mek because they can abuse certain mek timing (pushing and forcing teamfight). I might have been wrong, but I don't think there're new unexplored semi-carries in the hero pool that can opt to use mek. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 18 2012 09:24 canikizu wrote: Blinkdagger isn't a survivability item, sure, but those heroes qualify your point (need survivability item and have good mana pool), but some items (in this case blinkdagger) is too big of an item for those semi-carry/high impact heroes to opt out to get mek just because team doesn't have it. What? Brew and Magnus have shit mana pools, and being able to spend 2k on a 0-stat item is indicative of a hero that DOESN'T need a survivability item that early. On November 18 2012 09:24 canikizu wrote: Can you list some semi-carries that need survivality items and have enough mana to cast mek? Please don't list DarkSeer, Death Prophet, Shadow Fiend because people have been going mek on them forever, and people get mek because they can abuse certain mek timing (pushing and forcing teamfight). I might have been wrong, but I don't think there're new unexplored semi-carries in the hero pool that can opt to use mek. Who says there's new unexplored territory? The person who originally asked the question listed Undying and Furion as heroes he was surprised at going Mek on--when Mek on those two is just as common as it is on DS or DP. All that's being asked/answered is a clarification on these types of heroes that go Mek. We're not suggesting Mek on some subset of heroes that otherwise have never gotten Mek before. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 18 2012 09:33 TheYango wrote: What? Brew and Magnus have shit mana pools, and being able to spend 2k on a 0-stat item is indicative of a hero that DOESN'T need a survivability item that early. Who says there's new unexplored territory? The person who originally asked the question listed Undying and Furion as heroes he was surprised at going Mek on--when Mek on those two is just as common as it is on DS or DP. All that's being asked/answered is a clarification on these types of heroes that go Mek. We're not suggesting Mek on some subset of heroes that otherwise have never gotten Mek before. Brew and Magmus have shit mana pool like Undying (all either require manaboot or bottle to ), and Undying doesn't desperately need survivability item either (all the heal and slow). How is Undying a better choice to get mek than Brew and Magmus? Your point is all over the place now. Why can't a simple answer "Every semi-carries need different items to make them shine" satisfy you? The original question was I was talking to some steam friends yesterday and one was saying that he began getting Mek on semi-carries lately, what are thoughts on this? And I gave my opinion on the whole: Unless you want to do some mek timing push, it's not really a good idea to get mek on some carry/semi-carry because each of those heroes usually needs a specific items to make them really strong, and getting mek will delay those items quite a bit. I haven't even touched Undying or Furion, you're the one that quoted me out and made it like I was wrong. You're the one that make it like as long as semi carries qualiy for 2 conditions, you can carry mek, and it blows many of the comparable items out of the water even if you never used it to heal anyone but yourself. If you don't have anything to agree or disagree with me, don't quote me for the sake of having nothing to do but quote. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 18 2012 10:05 canikizu wrote: Brew and Magmus have shit mana pool like Undying (all either require manaboot or bottle to ), and Undying doesn't desperately need survivability item either (all the heal and slow). How is Undying a better choice to get mek than Brew and Magmus? Your point is all over the place now. Why can't a simple answer "Every semi-carries need different items to make them shine" satisfy you? Because Undying doesn't have a shit mana pool? He has an Intelligence growth of 2.0 which is fairly high for a non-Intel hero, and a base Intel of 27, which is THE highest starting Intel for a non-Intel hero in the game (and is tied with a sizeable list of Intel heroes for 3rd highest starting Intel in the game, behind DS at 29 and Jakiro at 28). Brew on the other hand has the third-worst Intel growth in the game, and the 2 heroes with lower intel growth are PA and Troll, both of which have among the lowest mana costs in the game. Saying Undying's mana pool is shit is just completely wrong, because he has base intel/intel growth comparable to actual intelligence heroes. On November 18 2012 10:05 canikizu wrote: I haven't even touched Undying or Furion, you're the one that quoted me out and made it like I was wrong. You're the one that make it like as long as semi carries qualiy for 2 conditions, you can carry mek, and it And it's true. Your counterexamples still haven't shown otherwise, because the heroes you've listed more or less don't qualify for those 2 conditions. | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7596 Posts
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On November 18 2012 10:12 TheYango wrote: Because Undying doesn't have a shit mana pool? He has an Intelligence growth of 2.0 which is fairly high for a non-Intel hero, and a base Intel of 27, which is THE highest starting Intel for a non-Intel hero in the game (and is tied with a sizeable list of Intel heroes for 3rd highest starting Intel in the game, behind DS at 29 and Jakiro at 28). Brew on the other hand has the third-worst Intel growth in the game, and the 2 heroes with lower intel growth are PA and Troll, both of which have among the lowest mana costs in the game. Saying Undying's mana pool is shit is just completely wrong, because he has base intel/intel growth comparable to actual intelligence heroes. And it's true. Your counterexamples still haven't shown otherwise, because the heroes you've listed more or less don't qualify for those 2 conditions. Undying does have a lot of spells he wants to cast, much more than centaur. Semi-directly related I've noticed there's mana pool for pushing/laning and mana pool for team fighting. Team fighting you usually start out at full mana and can cast all your spells once or twice, and it's fine. If your team isn't ahead and is just positioning for a team fight, a few extra stats might help more than a 1000 gold into arcane boots (thinking earthshaker, especially pubs that go soul ring and arcane boots). Undying is constantly casting during laning, especially if you ever level up decay. The problem is ideally undying is constantly fighting/pushing, so I'm often running out of mana (can't imagine undying without arcanes, and I'm not sure mek on undying would work without arcane boots). The armor on mek is really nice. Edit: invoker probably has mana to spare for mek midgame. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 18 2012 10:12 TheYango wrote: Because Undying doesn't have a shit mana pool? He has an Intelligence growth of 2.0 which is fairly high for a non-Intel hero, and a base Intel of 27, which is THE highest starting Intel for a non-Intel hero in the game by a wide margin (and is tied with a sizeable list of Intel heroes for 3rd highest starting Intel in the game, behind DS at 29 and Jakiro at 28). Brew on the other hand has the second-worst Intel growth in the game, and the 2 heroes with lower intel growth are PA and Troll, both of which have among the lowest mana costs in the game. Oh please, Undying only gain 0.75int more than Brew's. At level 11, he only has 100+ mana than Brewmaster, and he has 4 active spells that require 100+ mana each, one of them is spammable (hell, even his 2nd skill has less cd than Brew's stomp). Undying in no way have enough mana to use all the spells more than Brewmaster using his. If Undying can get mek, so can Brew. And it's true. Your counterexamples still haven't shown otherwise, because the heroes you've listed more or less don't qualify for those 2 conditions. That's because there're not that many semi-carries can qualify your 2 points. Your 2 conditions are so generic that it can apply for any heroes, regardless that it's carry/semi-carry/support/initiators. Your tldr is like: stats gives stats to survive, need 150mana in the mana pool to cast the spell, qualify for 2, get a mek. Take a look back alright, your opinion is completely unrelated to mine, my opinion don't say that yours is wrong, and yours should also not say mine is wrong. So don't quote and post it like my opinion is wrong. I stopped reading when you suggested Undying has a poor mana pool, thats just fucking outrageous. Read between the line. It's not about mana pool, Brew can afford to spend 150 mana if he don't have to blink and have +5 int from mek. It's not like Mek is spammable or something (only use every 45sec). The problem is Mek on Brew is not as effective as blink on Brew, and it brings us to my original point Unless you want to do some mek timing, it's not really a good idea to get mek on some carry/semi-carry because each of those heroes usually needs specific items to make them really strong, and getting mek will delay those items quite a bit. Anyway, I'm not gonna talk about this topic anymore, it's getting boring. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
Undying is a tanky asshole who does his job by running around, simply being alive in his ulti form and spamming his spells. ...now guess why Mek on Undying makes more sense than Mek on Panda. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
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hkimmy
Korea (South)61 Posts
Can orb effects be used on ethereal units (from what I understand-yes, right? If you cast them manually) If yes and you have crit, can an orb effect on an ethereal unit crit? To question 1, yes. Heroes such as Outworld Destroyer, Silencer can cast their orb effect (Arcane skill wtv, Glaive) while they are in ethereal form if you cast it manually. However, I see no reason to this (unless Silencer) as manually casting is not as fast as just simply auto attacking in the later stages of the game. To question 2, most orb effects I believe deal pure damage which merely acts as a bonus to your base attack. Critical strike is a physical type of attack which is modified based on your original base attack. Thus, you will not be able to crit on an ethereal unit, casting an orb effect. Correct me if I am wrong though. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8939 Posts
it youre not getting survivability items on undying what are you going for? Undyings influence in teamfights benefits from staying in the middle of everything more than any other hero. Why would you build him to not be tanky when thats all he needs to be an insanely good hero | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On November 18 2012 12:18 hkimmy wrote: To question 1, yes. Heroes such as Outworld Destroyer, Silencer can cast their orb effect (Arcane skill wtv, Glaive) while they are in ethereal form if you cast it manually. However, I see no reason to this (unless Silencer) as manually casting is not as fast as just simply auto attacking in the later stages of the game. To question 2, most orb effects I believe deal pure damage which merely acts as a bonus to your base attack. Critical strike is a physical type of attack which is modified based on your original base attack. Thus, you will not be able to crit on an ethereal unit, casting an orb effect. Correct me if I am wrong though. You can orb walk while you're ethereal, but you cannot orb walk ethereal units (either that or vice versa, 95% sure it's that). Otherwise ghost scepter would be pretty mediocre against clinks. Orb effect damage type is entirely dependent upon the orb. Glaives/annihilation orb/impetus is pure, fire arrows physical, poison probably physical. I don't think fire arrows crits. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On November 18 2012 12:52 evilfatsh1t wrote: Question directed at canikizu it youre not getting survivability items on undying what are you going for? Undyings influence in teamfights benefits from staying in the middle of everything more than any other hero. Why would you build him to not be tanky when thats all he needs to be an insanely good hero Of course you have to get tanky items for Undying. I didn't say that we shouldn't get it on him. I just say the logic that you should get a mek because your team doesn't get it, or you need some stats and some heal is not really a good reason. Like DarkSeer, you have to juggle between getting a mek or a hood, depending on your team need. Frankly, I think mek on Undying is worse than Hood on Undying or Mek on DarkSeer because: - DS's spell is less spammable, and he's intel hero and gets soulring as core, so he usually has enough mana to cast his stuff and mek. On the other hand, Undying has spammable spell, and it costs 130mana/4sec. His mana pool is always tight. - Undying doesn't really need more +armor item, he got +3 from ring of basillius already. Getting mek to have another +5 armor is kind of overkill. He usually doesn't die from physical attack anyway. On the other hand, without Hood, he will have a hard time to stay in the middle of all the spells from the enemies. Basically, if the total spell damage you estimate that will be used on you is under 1000 damage, mek is a decent choice (rarely though, because the longer the battle goes, the more spell damage you will take), if it's above 1000 damage, hood is a must since even with 250hp heal from mek, you won't be able to tank it. - Moreover, Undying is not the best farmer out there, you can't play like DS, getting both mek and hood. Choosing Hood can let you have pipe much much faster. That was why I said, if you go mek on semi-carries, it should serve some other purposes purpose asides from giving tanky stats and spend mana. People opt to go mek all the time on DS, DProphet, NProphet, or SF because they realize that they can push hard with it, or they can punish the enemy for not having counterpushers. Going early mek and not pushing is like going early vanguard and not diving tower, it's just not worth it that much. On November 18 2012 11:28 r.Evo wrote: Panda is an initiator that won't even have access to active items when he does his job properly most of the time. Undying is a tanky asshole who does his job by running around, simply being alive in his ulti form and spamming his spells. ...now guess why Mek on Undying makes more sense than Mek on Panda. Thank you for agreeing with me that each semi-carries need different specific to make him strong, and you can't just build mek because you need some stats and have mana to spare. | ||
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