EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 17
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
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jambam
United States324 Posts
On September 05 2011 22:40 Qbek wrote: So what about nessaj , the chaos knight? His damage was ranging from like 40 to 70, fitting his theme perfectly and making last hitting versus him just hilarious loterry. I don't see the damage going flat tbh. Are a lot of heroes like this? I know ogre magi has random multicast. Is this a theme with many of the dota heroes? Perhaps its my competitive mentality but i think randomness takes some fun away from games like this. You can spend an entire game working for small advantages and taking little victories only to have your carry killed by a lucky ogre spell. Basically what I'm asking is if randomness is a big part of the game, at least at a competitive level, and if so, how do you feel about it? | ||
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
If you don't like random element, play sc. Dota is actually all about random stuff, depending on hero ofc. | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
On September 06 2011 01:37 jambam wrote: Are a lot of heroes like this? I know ogre magi has random multicast. Is this a theme with many of the dota heroes? Perhaps its my competitive mentality but i think randomness takes some fun away from games like this. You can spend an entire game working for small advantages and taking little victories only to have your carry killed by a lucky ogre spell. Basically what I'm asking is if randomness is a big part of the game, at least at a competitive level, and if so, how do you feel about it? There's an element of randomness to quite a few of the heroes, but at a competitive level the more random heroes just aren't used, ogre magi has been in the past occasionally, but that's because he has a low cd stun, decent early roamer, and bloodlust is one of the best buffs you can give. There is an element of randomness, but it is vastly outweighed by everything else. You can have utterly nuts moments with void where he backtracks elventybillion points of damage in five seconds, but randomness is not an important factor. I have had a few times where people get away from ganks with 1 hp, and you think to yourself "one high roll on an attack and they'd have been dead" but it's just an excuse for a poorly executed gank, tbh. So, uh, sort of, but it's not a big thing. Randomness is the least influential factor in a game, behind the amount of coffee you've drunk earlier that day, and far far far behind positioning or map awareness. On September 06 2011 01:42 Qbek wrote: The problem with randomness is that its fun when ur lucky,and sucks when u got "lucked". The random element plays huge role in dota nowadays, many random skills , like bash and crit are core for heroes. The damage, except for nessaj, is a minor issue compared to criticals of hroes like mortred or bash of troll. Overally, removing random elemet would simply mean removing certain heroes. If you don't like random element, play sc. Dota is actually all about random stuff, depending on hero ofc. I very much disagree with this. Crits are based on a PRD, which makes them more reliable, and lets you do finesse things like forcing a crit proc when you really need it. PA's crit is the only truly random thing I can think of, and if you're talking about a competitive setting and worrying about PA's critical, then something has changed. Troll too. Yeah, you can end up with a PA 2-shotting someone with two crits back to back, but you know what - if it's got to the point where PA can blink into your team, with that sort of damage, and your team can't do anything about it/hasn't already won then there's a bigger problem with your gameplay than PA critical being random. | ||
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
 I am not supried random based heroes aren't picked in competetive games, and I totally agree random isn't that big of a deal most of the time( while still a factor) | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
Also what are the best starting heroes? I've been learning AA, Doom, Drow, Prophet, and Earthshaker. | ||
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mdma-_-
Nauru1213 Posts
On September 08 2011 10:07 Fishgle wrote: Hi I just started playing DotA (vs Ai, lol) but i was wondering where should i start playing games online, dotacash, garena, or iccup? Also what are the best starting heroes? I've been learning AA, Doom, Drow, Prophet, and Earthshaker. try playing garena first. the game quality is rly bad and the leaver percentage is quite high, so once u dont feed anympre switch to a better platform (dotalicious, dotacash, iccup etc.) | ||
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Aruno
New Zealand748 Posts
For example: Void's backtrack: at lvl 4 he has a 25% chance of 'backtracking'/dodging a spell/attack on him Critical Strike: Blademaster, Chaos Knight, Skeleton King, Phantom Assassin, Lycan's Ulti form Crit, pandaren's dodge+crit Bash: SpiritBreaker, Void, Slardar. Spells: Orgi Magi ulti that causes randomly mulitplied spell amplifications of either fireblast, bloodlust or ignite. Randomness is common in Dota. I personally love it. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
However, I'd like to point out that even in their case, they can't eliminate some element of unpredictability. That is: predicting the movement and action of the enemy. No matter how much you are "in their head" and have enforced their position, and figured out their behavioral patterns, in the end you never know for sure how they will move. So there's still gambling, because many abilities are thrown, and have delay, with you hoping the enemy to be where you expect them to be. So in reality, when they talk about 100% player-controlled events, that doesn't eliminate relative randomness (if you don't know how something operates, it becomes random, relative to you). | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On September 08 2011 10:07 Fishgle wrote: Hi I just started playing DotA (vs Ai, lol) but i was wondering where should i start playing games online, dotacash, garena, or iccup? Also what are the best starting heroes? I've been learning AA, Doom, Drow, Prophet, and Earthshaker. ES is a big feed warning for new players and isnt that effective without good coordination (you should be roaming somewhat). I think Lion is the best way to start out, everyone has their opinions though. | ||
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Yurie
12076 Posts
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shostakovich
Brazil1429 Posts
On September 08 2011 10:42 Aruno wrote: Anyone worried about "randomness", should know that Dota is full of skills that use random chances. For example: Void's backtrack: at lvl 4 he has a 25% chance of 'backtracking'/dodging a spell/attack on him Critical Strike: Blademaster, Chaos Knight, Skeleton King, Phantom Assassin, Lycan's Ulti form Crit, pandaren's dodge+crit Bash: SpiritBreaker, Void, Slardar. Spells: Orgi Magi ulti that causes randomly mulitplied spell amplifications of either fireblast, bloodlust or ignite. Randomness is common in Dota. I personally love it. Not really. It's not completely random, but semi-random. The difference is that, if you don't get your thing on the first chance, the second chance will have higher chance. If you don't get it on the second chance, the third chance will be even higher. And then, when you finally get your thing, the whole process starts again. So, say, if you have 15% chance of doing 4x DMG and you got like 5 strikes without getting the crit, you'll likely get it on the fifth strike. | ||
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Kaemon
Spain52 Posts
Personally I was more frustrated on WoW Arenas, or even when playing a Crit-Char on LoL that on DotA. Is more about knowing to play in general, and positioning and start/avoid the battles than "OMG I WAS UNLUCKY, I COUNTED ON CRIT TO KILLING YOU!". (Also, as someone mentioned, DotA procs are more reliable; there is a built-in system that kinda quarantees 25% of crits when having 25% chance of crit). Ofc you can sometime get a "lucky" Multi/Crit/Stun, specially noticeable if the one performing is was low and going to die and got saved by it; but it's not diferent from Dodge/Crit runes in LoL. Also, I think I kinda prefer my hero doing 30-50 damage over 40 damage; since having basic numbers could lead to situations (based on maths and experience) where you know exactly how many hits in how many time you have to do to X enemy with X HP/Armor/Regen... Doesn't sound fun. XD (Or where you KNOW he is going to die by that flying proyectile; instead of being ready for the chances of him surviving). And now... A question of my own... I stopped playing DotA for LoL some time ago (all friends in LoL mostly, still prefer original DotA over LoL) so I missed some of the last aditions (took me a while to understand that new gank smoke; I was watching the replays and like: WTF? They are all invisible?) Mostly I think I understand everything going on in any DotA game; but on the DotA2 matches I was kinda surprised to see many times items in the ground (many times in the place of broken towers). Has this any purpouse? They are GGBranches/Tangoes/Whatever not even worth selling? Is a DotA2 bug of somehow? I don't see why they were left there. (Also saw one on the rune spawning place; does it stop the rune from spawning or moves it or anything?) Also, on a note... Was DotA2 (or normal DotA) Roshan buffed at some point? Or is just that it looks thougher (takes longer to kill) when seeing people with Vanguards/Wards instead of the custom "DPS Build" you see in pubs? I feel like I do solo-roshan Lv7 with Venomancer faster than those guys do with Lv10-15 being all there. | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
Dropping items just becase it's not worth the hassle to sell them. They're less than one creep - if you even spend 3 seconds doing it, you may well be losing money overall. | ||
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asdfman
Finland34 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:07 Kaemon wrote: And now... A question of my own... I stopped playing DotA for LoL some time ago (all friends in LoL mostly, still prefer original DotA over LoL) so I missed some of the last aditions (took me a while to understand that new gank smoke; I was watching the replays and like: WTF? They are all invisible?) Mostly I think I understand everything going on in any DotA game; but on the DotA2 matches I was kinda surprised to see many times items in the ground (many times in the place of broken towers). Has this any purpouse? They are GGBranches/Tangoes/Whatever not even worth selling? Is a DotA2 bug of somehow? I don't see why they were left there. (Also saw one on the rune spawning place; does it stop the rune from spawning or moves it or anything?) Also, on a note... Was DotA2 (or normal DotA) Roshan buffed at some poin? Or is just that it looks thougher (takes longer to kill) when seeing people with Vanguards/Wards instead of the custom "DPS Build" you see in pubs? I haven't played dota since HoN beta started but I believe I can still answer your questions (sorry if I'm wrong). The items on the ground should be for the reason you've guessed, a branch sells for 26g, tango for less than 50 (and it's safe to assume the ditched tangos do not have full charges anymore), if you miss out on even 1 creep kill while selling them it's not worth it (not even considering the potential xp loss). I guess tangos can be used from the ground aswell with some fast item switching and it's doubtful that your enemy would dive into a tower just to kill a tango, at least in early game (They can destroy the item 'for free' with creep support though, obviously). A wild guess why you saw one on the rune spawning spot would be that someone bought their bottle while going for rune and just dropped the tango there to make room. The items most certainly don't affect rune spawns in any way. As for Roshan, he should be the same. You already pretty much answered why he dies slowly, you see far more defensive builds in higher level games, lots of vanguards etc. -Armor is absolutely huge against Roshan, teams without it will kill him quite slowly while a team with say, Slardar, can destroy him in seconds. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On September 08 2011 17:26 shostakovich wrote: Not really. It's not completely random, but semi-random. The difference is that, if you don't get your thing on the first chance, the second chance will have higher chance. If you don't get it on the second chance, the third chance will be even higher. And then, when you finally get your thing, the whole process starts again. So, say, if you have 15% chance of doing 4x DMG and you got like 5 strikes without getting the crit, you'll likely get it on the fifth strike. I thought it worked like 1st time 15% second time 15% third time 15% fourth time 15% 5th time 15% and so on or am I missing something. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:47 Kipsate wrote: I thought it worked like 1st time 15% second time 15% third time 15% fourth time 15% 5th time 15% and so on or am I missing something. He is not completelly correct, some skills do work like that, as an usual random chance, but most don't. Warcraft 3 uses a "pseudo RNG", don't remember the exact name, but in that example, the of procing on the first time would actually be lower than 15%, rising up with each hit, passing 15%, until you actually proc, then it resets. In the end, the average is still 15%. I don't remember which skills use a true RNG, but Multicast is probally one of them, maybe backtrack as well because it isn't a real dodge. Crits and dodge are ussually not. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [tldr] + words words words numbers numbers words words | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
These skills: crit bash hardened skin (vanguard) % orbs (maelstrom) pulverise (from warlocks infernal) all increase in chance for each failure, and then drops back down. You do not start at the full %, you go lower, then the chance increases, until you're guaranteed a crit. This makes crits both more reliable, and less prone to absurd double crits. The following you think could follow, but don't: Bash from basher backtrack from void. greater bash lancer's juxtapose all evasion There's very little practical dota application to it. With an orb effect that also has a cooldown (syllabear's bear's engangle) the PRD counter increases, even whilst the cooldown is still going. Essentially this means with enough attack speed you can quite easily make it at most 2-3 hits before guaranteeing another entangle from the bear, as the % goes up. You can also force a critical by chaining non crit attacks for 25% criticals (buriza) you need to attack, according to the above article, 10 times consecutively without crit, and your next hit will be one. I had always heard 8 times before, though that might be the 90/95% boundary. This is rather spiffy for heroes like kunnka, where a crit tidebringer on a farmed kunka can easily do upwards of 1000 pure AoE damage, and with additional cleave from battlefuries can one-shot heroes. Like this: that's near 1600 damage in one go, when the kunka only has ~600 damage, due to the stacking cleave damage, throw a crit on that, and you're looking at upwards of 2k pure aoe damage. This is not advised in serious games, and is for the lolz only. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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