EPTif you die instead of a core, its probably okay earlier in the game. but like yurie said your deaths begin to add up after a while and you will have zero item progression. you'll constantly be buying wards and TP's and never be able to save up for the all important blink dagger or it will take you forever to save up for the components of a force staff.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 1082
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
if you die instead of a core, its probably okay earlier in the game. but like yurie said your deaths begin to add up after a while and you will have zero item progression. you'll constantly be buying wards and TP's and never be able to save up for the all important blink dagger or it will take you forever to save up for the components of a force staff. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On April 21 2015 22:47 DinoMight wrote: Is "give the carry 100% of the farm" necessarily the best way to play the game? I know that at the pro level a lot of teams tend to do this but there was a big article on how Alliance won TI3 by letting their supports get some early farm too. This strategy just seems like it requires everyone to play perfectly. Sure, a carry can utilize the farm better than a support, but without good coordination, map awareness, etc. that carry will just get 3v1 ganked in the forest a dozen times and then you end up with everyone on your team being compeletly useless. Or your super farmed carry will be out of position for a team fight and the ensuing 4v5 will be really really lob-sided net worth-wise. Not to mention that at lower skill levels carries can't even reliably GET all the last hits in the first place. EDIT - I mean, sure you want to give your carry most of the farm. But should you really encourage zero last hit supports in the 2k MMR bracket? This seems to be in response to your getting dogpiled in the QQ thread for complaining that your carries didn't like you contesting lasthits, so I'm going to answer the underlying issue. "My carry gets farm or I get farm" is a false dichotomy. Being a good support is directly related to your ability to find your farm and levels elsewhere on the map via pulls, stacks, bounty runes and - most importantly - kills. By getting gold and levels from these sources, you directly increase the networth of your team, because your cores have full access to the lanes in addition to what you generate. You absolutely should not be a 0cs support at 30 mins, but if the only way you can avoid that is by leeching off the allocation of your cores, you have failed anyway. Even worse, if you try to take their allocation without the core's consent you create an unbelievably inefficient distribution of resources. Even for two players who could each score 80cs in an empty lane, if they are fighting they waste cs trying to beat each other, and the final split will be something like 25/25 with 30 lost. That is absolutely awful considering that your team is dedicating two heroes to that task in an empty lane. Never contest cs. Bonus anecdote: + Show Spoiler + I play with a 2k guy pretty regularly, and I remember back when we started he would give a dramatic sigh whenever i picked a self-sufficient laner like weaver, because he knew it meant I would ask him to leave the lane quite early. He would usually come back about 5 minutes later, still level 1, and beg that he needed farm too. That is a textbook low-tier support phrase, and if you find yourself using it you should really look at that game later and try to identify the mistakes that got you there. As my friend got better, he learned to find his levels without leeching off the lane, and now he is usually pleased when I pick weaver because he knows that his carry being self sufficient means we both end up richer because he doesn't have to waste time babysitting me. | ||
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BeeLz
Belgium52 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On April 22 2015 09:47 Belisarius wrote: This seems to be in response to your getting dogpiled in the QQ thread for complaining that your carries didn't like you contesting lasthits, so I'm going to answer the underlying issue. "My carry gets farm or I get farm" is a false dichotomy. Being a good support is directly related to your ability to find your farm and levels elsewhere on the map via pulls, stacks, bounty runes and - most importantly - kills. By getting gold and levels from these sources, you directly increase the networth of your team, because your cores have full access to the lanes in addition to what you generate. You absolutely should not be a 0cs support at 30 mins, but if the only way you can avoid that is by leeching off the allocation of your cores, you have failed anyway. Even worse, if you try to take their allocation without the core's consent you create an unbelievably inefficient distribution of resources. Even for two players who could each score 80cs in an empty lane, if they are fighting they waste cs trying to beat each other, and the final split will be something like 25/25 with 30 lost. That is absolutely awful considering that your team is dedicating two heroes to that task in an empty lane. Never contest cs. Bonus anecdote: + Show Spoiler + I play with a 2k guy pretty regularly, and I remember back when we started he would give a dramatic sigh whenever i picked a self-sufficient laner like weaver, because he knew it meant I would ask him to leave the lane quite early. He would usually come back about 5 minutes later, still level 1, and beg that he needed farm too. That is a textbook low-tier support phrase, and if you find yourself using it you should really look at that game later and try to identify the mistakes that got you there. As my friend got better, he learned to find his levels without leeching off the lane, and now he is usually pleased when I pick weaver because he knows that his carry being self sufficient means we both end up richer because he doesn't have to waste time babysitting me. Well my QQ was more about standing in lane watching my carry miss every single last hit and then flaming me whenever I got one that he was clearly not getting, but it got me thinking about this. Wouldn't you rather have your support finish their Force Staff so they can get you out of the Clockwerk cogs / Chronosphere / whatever? Some people are really stubborn about "shut up and buy wards." | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On April 22 2015 22:54 BluemoonSC wrote: just an FYI you can't forcestaff anyone out of chronosphere. you can force staff the void, but he's pretty speedy in there so you're better off with a eul's for that situation (before BKB) Lol, thx... I didn't realize that. I usually play Venge and Stun/Swap Void anyway. But you know what I mean. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
How do you deal with the offlane Axe backdoor thing? Played a game yesterday as VS (other in my lane was bounty) where axe got to level 4 and I was still level 1 because he was just killing creeps between towers and I couldn't do anything to him at all. My range/attack animation doesn't let me harass him because he's faster than me and BH is melee so obviously can't fight him. Axe also had a Pugna with him slowing us down and dealing huge damage pretty early so trying to do anything was instant death really. I kind of sat back at my T2 tower and just tried not to die. But it put me way behind. Out team was Sniper, Windranger, Bounty, VS, and Alchemist. Do we ask Sniper to leave mid and come kill him with us? He's laning vs a Storm Spirit. Should I have changed places with Windranger and just gone offlane with Alchemist? A lot of issues on our team... but advice on how to deal with this particular situation would be helpful. | ||
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On April 23 2015 00:01 Buckyman wrote: In that situation you can skill Wave of Terror first to punish Axe for tanking the creep wave. I think the rest of your team laned that wrong; Alchemist should have been safelane with Bounty Hunter on the offlane, and you can contest the Axe with a double stun in an acid cloud. But if you did neither of the above, and your team doesn't want to change their lanes, I agree with Velzi; you should be roaming. OK thanks, that makes sense. And yeah... I asked Alchemist to come top with me and Bounty to go down but obviously nobody listened to me. LIke I said this Axe wasn't our only problem.. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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ADSRelease
United States37 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
and it's because the summons are tied to the item. If you had a 2nd necrobook you could use one (both go on cooldown), refresh, then use the other to have 2 sets of summons if you really wanted (not worth the money). As for reasons, you'd have to ask icefrog or something. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Like, for things that are such fringe cases in normal gameplay, they just follow the default behavior in War3 because why would you go through the effort of changing it if it doesn't matter? | ||
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eieio
United States14512 Posts
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Necronomicon#Balance_Changelog says it was removed in 6.28 iirc refresher necrobook warlock was the build for a bit | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Also, the random "Necro units can't attack Ancients" restriction that was in for years lolol. | ||
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eieio
United States14512 Posts
and yeah yango do you have any idea why that restriction was there because it baffles me lol it was even removed and then re-added so it doesn't seem to be technical? | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On April 23 2015 06:32 Kupon3ss wrote: It was put into place during the age of the "paper roshan", during which time if necrobook was able to attack rosh any hero with a necro3 would have been able to solo rosh relatively easily sounds like the way to fix MoM is to disable hitting ancient-status units when its active XD | ||
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