EPTAnother question: why is batrider always so important in the pro scene? He seems really risky for his rewards, and linkens poops on him
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Howie_Dewitt
United States1416 Posts
Another question: why is batrider always so important in the pro scene? He seems really risky for his rewards, and linkens poops on him | ||
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goody153
44311 Posts
On April 21 2015 11:46 Howie_Dewitt wrote: What supports are almost never bad (no huge counters like shaker beating brood) Another question: why is batrider always so important in the pro scene? He seems really risky for his rewards, and linkens poops on him 1st question : ES ? i mean the hero can function without farm at all and is almost good in any situation .. outside that i can't think of any cause i play more core than support 2nd question : Think about it batrider just needs blink dagger and they get it super early. And think about this how many carries actually want and are good with linkens outside weaver and morphling ? and think about it i'm not even mentioning the supports and other cores who would need linkens if the counter is just to buy linkens and don't forget that you can't rush linkens it's expensive and it delays other items for most heroes to go online sooner. Another thing is that batrider is super viable due to the flying vision it gives from firefly. Remember that for higher level of play vision is incredibly important. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12267 Posts
On April 21 2015 11:46 Howie_Dewitt wrote: What supports are almost never bad (no huge counters like shaker beating brood) Another question: why is batrider always so important in the pro scene? He seems really risky for his rewards, and linkens poops on him Venge is still firstpick/firstban material. She packs a high-damage stun, a low-cost wave that can be used for scouting and -armor, a physical damage aura that doubles as a physical damage debuff aura when she's dead, and the most powerful positioning spell in the game. She's extremely versatile and a born position 5. Swap can save allies from Void, Troll, and Batrider, bring Sniper into your team's range, and prevent a BKB'd target from TPing away. Witch Doctor is also a super powerful hero especially as a trilane support with heal. Once he gets Agh's his ult dominates teamfights. Morphling is an excellent support capable of shutting down a single target for over 4 seconds while having a ridiculous health pool. He also has great utility with Replicate and is very slippery with Waveform. Lion has an instant cast Hex and a second stun plus a ton of burst damage. EDIT: Also Linken's isn't a perfect counter to Batrider because he can just Force Staff you before Lassoing. It doesn't pull you away as far, but it's still a long-duration disable. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
- She allways has gold to ward/deward/smoke without stealing farm from cores, even if you are solo support; - Each game has a couple of roshan fights, the new pitdesign helps to get a full duration ultimate off every roshan fight; - Proactive support that can setup some kills (2 nukes). If you have strong lanes and are a bit of a lunatic: frostbite 2 big creeps early and around 1 or 2 minutes, you can buy a bottle for mid/offlane. Basically 700 free gold for your core & maiden will be lvl2. 700 gold advantage at midlane that early could be gamechanging for pubs. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I expect that satanic is at least good on a hero like Morphling, because he inherently has high damage, high attack speed, and is hard to control because he's ranged, and has mobility/surviveability skills that allow him to almost guarantee actually sustaining his dps during the duration of satanic active. I've been under the impression that satanic is generally not the right item to build on easily controlled melee heroes who thus are unlikely to make use of the satanic active. So for example I know a lot of people like satanic on PA because for some reason they make dominator on her, and it's really cool when you use satanic and crit someone for 4x your hp in lifesteal; but I don't build it because I don't want to blinkstrike satanic active someone after my bkb's worn off and get entangled by frostbite or something and not actually be able to hit anything during satanic active. Are my assumptions thus-so-far at least generally correct? After the last major patch which made Weaver's geminate proc orbs among other things, I began to favour item builds that gave him more farming capacity for greater lategame relevancy-- so a maelstrom instead of deso which gives me more farm, the end result being having items like butterfly and satanic over items like mkb and heart. If I have the attack speed from butterfly, is satanic good because of my overall dps and the fact that I'm ranged, or am I looking at this the wrong way? I ask because I'm not entirely sure I'm building him correctly at all in the lategame, and think that maybe heart or skadi is perhaps a superior lategame tank/sustain item. I realize heart has good synergy with his kit because of his ability to disengage and reengage easily. I realize skadi is specifically good against melee carries. But I don't know if one of those is obviously better than satanic a greater percent of the time. I don't know when one of those for the sole purpose of keeping me alive and letting me sustain my dps lategame is clearly superior. I've always assumed that satanic was the clear best item on Luna following butterfly, if something else wasn't obviously better. So I recognize that maybe an mkb is more important as the next item slot in a game where my end-game kit needs to include truestrike because the enemy has or is building evasion, but in games where I had no obvious reason to deviate from an itembuild involving bkb and butterfly during my progression, I was under the assumption that I wanted satanic next for surviveability and allowing for sustained dps during endgame fights. Am I wrong? Are there broad scenarios (not super exactly scenario/full-draft specific scenarios) where satanic is clearly inferior to another item for her with this kind of item progression? Is saving bkb cd until you're low enough that you're seriously considering activating satanic a thing, vs using it at the onset of the fight to prevent being immediately controlled? On heroes who felt they needed a bkb in midgame (for example, Luna still), is bkb usually still a 6slot item? I ask all of these questions because far more frequently now than in the past I am having to seriously reconsider which items I want to literally end the game on, regardless of what I needed or built earlier. I fairly frequently have long enough games where my 6slot is changing several times before the literal last fight/push. Sometimes, even on heroes who aren't Naga or Medusa I end the game with end-game items in my stash both because I had enough farm to change my 6slot without selling the other 6slot items and because I really couldn't tell, even after changing my 6slot between fights (or during, involving buyback), what the best 6slot was. Satanic and bkb in particular seem like they aren't relevant 6slot items sometimes, which is a huge affront to how I used to view endgame item builds in the past. Sometimes I'll be in an endgame fight and hit my satanic and not live any longer because even with satanic I can't survive the combined dps of 2-3 4-6 slotted carries because everyone and their mother picks a carry and survives to get good items now. Or fights will go on so long that the 5s I have of bkb seems to make less of a difference than if I just had a skadi or heart instead, of conversely a daedalus or abyssal blade because maybe I skipped one or the other to make mkb instead, etc. If you're playing vs a glass cannon carry like Jugg or Sniper with let's say a hypothetical generic ranged agility carry, do you try and build defense/sustain to withstand their firepower, or build glass cannon too, maybe with a pre-6slot blink and just jump on them and try and crit them down instantly? Are the trends and phenomena I describe real? Is this something that's changed, or am I caught up in my own personal meta / dota understanding? Does a satanic or bkb have a place in a perfect 6slot on any hero? Do you still need a lategame surviveability item at all? Seems like skadi is far more popular than heart now. Does every carry's perfect 6slot include a skadi now, instead of a heart or satanic? Would the skadi even be necessary in a perfect 6slot, or do carries just continue the arm's race and have 5 endgame dps items + bots? Are bots even part of a perfect 6slot, especially if you're on the defensive? I understand there's still more to endgame dota than which carry you have and which items you have, and far more involved in how you ended up in that scenario lategame, but I feel like these things are still important considerations. Maybe I've leveled myself into a certain play-style or tricked myself into false understanding that blinded me from hitting my optimum timing windows as a hero or as a team, but the frequency at which I encounter these kind of scenarios forces me to consider the best adaptation having already arrived at them. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
On April 21 2015 00:03 DinoMight wrote: Carry Aba is not very good, IMO. He doesn't do that much damage, has not burst, no stun. You just attack him, Euls when his ulti is up, and finish him off when he lands. I think the biggest reason carry Aba works is because people panic and focus on him rather than the other heroes. He ends up getting farmed a bunch of kills and snowballs to the point where he can just dive forever because nobody can kill him. TLDR; dont hit him when his ult is up, focus higher DPS heroes first. EDIT - but it's super fun to play against people who are bad :p I occasionally play Swaggadon, but im only 2.2k so people don't know how to fight it. Yeah I know how to deal with him during teamfights since we've seen people play that way and they won... I think I phrased my question wrong, how can you win against Abbaddon in the laning phase? Do you pick ranged heroes and try to zone him out to prevent farm while making sure you don't zone aggressively to get ganked by supports? | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
lunas generally a frontline carry so i rly like satanic or heart since she tends to take random damage sieging towers and stuff. her dps is naturally high so satanic is generally preferred. hotd is also great on her u cant tank a sniper, hell just kite u forever, u have to jump him. u have to tank a jugg. generally skadis much weaker lategame when sheeps, forces, ghosts, etc start coming out. except on sniper 9999 range skadi is pretty bs i think ideal 6slot depends heavily on lineup. | ||
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VelJa
France1109 Posts
On April 21 2015 21:10 SilverSkyLark wrote: Yeah I know how to deal with him during teamfights since we've seen people play that way and they won... I think I phrased my question wrong, how can you win against Abbaddon in the laning phase? Do you pick ranged heroes and try to zone him out to prevent farm while making sure you don't zone aggressively to get ganked by supports? Well Abaddon is weak in early game, specially if hes carry :D If hes safelane, put a fucking Bristleback in front of him, he will get 0 farm You can run a dual lane too. with some ranged abuse support as Lina (Aclick 700range) Skywrath (Spamm spell) Lion (manadrain) there is 2 support that completely ruin abaddon in midd/late game (and all other rightclick melee carry) that I used to play a lot but NOBODY plays them: Oracle and WinterWyvern. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
On April 21 2015 22:24 VelJa wrote: Well Abaddon is weak in early game, specially if hes carry :D If hes safelane, put a fucking Bristleback in front of him, he will get 0 farm You can run a dual lane too. with some ranged abuse support as Lina (Aclick 700range) Skywrath (Spamm spell) Lion (manadrain) there is 2 support that completely ruin abaddon in midd/late game (and all other rightclick melee carry) that I used to play a lot but NOBODY plays them: Oracle and WinterWyvern. Oohh right! Thanks for the tips! And yeah I've been itching to play Winter Wyvern but I haven't come across an enemy team dumb enough to pick at least 3 melee heroes. | ||
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VelJa
France1109 Posts
They are range, tanky, escape mechanics, heal over time, ultimates still usefull (even more usefull) in the end game (WW ult works on BKB right?) | ||
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Lavitage2
198 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On April 21 2015 22:40 Lavitage2 wrote: is there a way to mute the in the bag taunts ROFL. They can be annoying but they don't last that long at least. And I don't think you can mute those since Valve makes money off those things... Separate question: Is "give the carry 100% of the farm" necessarily the best way to play the game? I know that at the pro level a lot of teams tend to do this but there was a big article on how Alliance won TI3 by letting their supports get some early farm too. This strategy just seems like it requires everyone to play perfectly. Sure, a carry can utilize the farm better than a support, but without good coordination, map awareness, etc. that carry will just get 3v1 ganked in the forest a dozen times and then you end up with everyone on your team being compeletly useless. Or your super farmed carry will be out of position for a team fight and the ensuing 4v5 will be really really lob-sided net worth-wise. Not to mention that at lower skill levels carries can't even reliably GET all the last hits in the first place. EDIT - I mean, sure you want to give your carry most of the farm. But should you really encourage zero last hit supports in the 2k MMR bracket? | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On April 21 2015 22:56 ahswtini wrote: that implies that you as a 2k support are immune to having bad coordination and map awareness and being 3v1 ganked No, but as a broke as hell 8th position support that wasn't going to get any farm anyway, my deaths are less meaningful. Point is that we are not coordinated well, so we can't always necessarily rely on the one person we need to win a fight to be there. Therefore it would make sense that at least in the early stages of the game you spread the farm out a little bit more. If you have the coordination to always be in the right place at the right time then going all-in on two of your characters seems more reasonable. | ||
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VelJa
France1109 Posts
On April 21 2015 22:47 DinoMight wrote: ROFL. They can be annoying but they don't last that long at least. And I don't think you can mute those since Valve makes money off those things... Separate question: Is "give the carry 100% of the farm" necessarily the best way to play the game? I know that at the pro level a lot of teams tend to do this but there was a big article on how Alliance won TI3 by letting their supports get some early farm too. This strategy just seems like it requires everyone to play perfectly. Sure, a carry can utilize the farm better than a support, but without good coordination, map awareness, etc. that carry will just get 3v1 ganked in the forest a dozen times and then you end up with everyone on your team being compeletly useless. Or your super farmed carry will be out of position for a team fight and the ensuing 4v5 will be really really lob-sided net worth-wise. Not to mention that at lower skill levels carries can't even reliably GET all the last hits in the first place. EDIT - I mean, sure you want to give your carry most of the farm. But should you really encourage zero last hit supports in the 2k MMR bracket? Well here you have my 2c I'm a support player since always and I'm at 4k MMR I mostly play with friends of my level. I think that support need some farm. Its not good to have a free kill walking on the map. But support need less farm than core. You can get it from different ways. Don't forget that it's not because you are a support that you have to be a bitch. Here's how u can get gold in early stage of the game : -pulling (always Stack or double pull to avoid pushing your lane) -ganks (midd with smoke or on your lane with a good coordination) -rotating. if one of your core leave his lane (midd/offlane mostly) don't hesitate to TP and take farm AND xp. -kill towers -don't hesitate to ask your carry 1 or 2 lasthit if u need gold to finish major item (manaboots basilus etc) HEre's another advices : -Use your no-reliable gold to buy wards tp and smoke. keep your reliable to buy items (urn mek force dagger stuff like that) -WARDS WIN GAMES everyone know that but DEWARDS WINS IT FASTER -BAIT. Bait the offlaner by staying solo on the safelane taking farm, while your carry and 2nd support or jungle hide in the jungle.Put you in danger, force the offlaner to attack you. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
On April 21 2015 22:39 VelJa wrote: I really love WW and oracle. People are underestimating them soo hard. I bet right here that we gonna see them soon in pro games. They are range, tanky, escape mechanics, heal over time, ultimates still usefull (even more usefull) in the end game (WW ult works on BKB right?) WW ulti goes thru BKb, that is right. | ||
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Rodrak
United States165 Posts
On April 21 2015 11:46 Howie_Dewitt wrote: What supports are almost never bad (no huge counters like shaker beating brood) Another question: why is batrider always so important in the pro scene? He seems really risky for his rewards, and linkens poops on him I'm gonna answer the first question Dazzle; He has no "counters" (no hero shuts him down entirely). I often play games of dazzle by being a "ward bitch" and only having Arcanes, which is fine. His skill set is great, his heal is nice and it does some damage aswell. His Ult provides 24 seconds of strength. His shallow grave buys time (personally SG only saves in short engagements, in fights it only buys time). His Poison Touch is a nice early game slow but falls off, quickly. Some people consider Axe a counter to Dazzle because his chop goes through SG. People shouldn't think like that. I've used my heal to get people above the kill threshold ten times more than my shallow grave has pierced. He is good in any lineup he tanks up your squishy heroes, weakens their tanks heroes (even more so on their squishy) and keeps you in fits for a long time. | ||
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Rodrak
United States165 Posts
On April 21 2015 22:47 DinoMight wrote: ROFL. They can be annoying but they don't last that long at least. And I don't think you can mute those since Valve makes money off those things... Separate question: Is "give the carry 100% of the farm" necessarily the best way to play the game? I know that at the pro level a lot of teams tend to do this but there was a big article on how Alliance won TI3 by letting their supports get some early farm too. This strategy just seems like it requires everyone to play perfectly. Sure, a carry can utilize the farm better than a support, but without good coordination, map awareness, etc. that carry will just get 3v1 ganked in the forest a dozen times and then you end up with everyone on your team being compeletly useless. Or your super farmed carry will be out of position for a team fight and the ensuing 4v5 will be really really lob-sided net worth-wise. Not to mention that at lower skill levels carries can't even reliably GET all the last hits in the first place. EDIT - I mean, sure you want to give your carry most of the farm. But should you really encourage zero last hit supports in the 2k MMR bracket? In every game I play as support I find space and use it. I get my items faster than enemy support a because of it. Usually if I'm solo support I won't get the 12 minute wards until I have Arcanes (Urn if 1450 gold is too far, boots and wand if I can't get urn). To answer your question, 100% farm carry is impossible to do. Giving him as much as possible is the most you can do, giving him is third item before you have Arcanes/Stick is a shitty playstyle. Figure out how much money YOU can survive with and play with your team around that amount. After that just work on surviving with less money, and ur get more. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
On April 22 2015 03:32 Rodrak wrote: I'm gonna answer the first question Dazzle; He has no "counters" (no hero shuts him down entirely). I often play games of dazzle by being a "ward bitch" and only having Arcanes, which is fine. His skill set is great, his heal is nice and it does some damage aswell. His Ult provides 24 seconds of strength. His shallow grave buys time (personally SG only saves in short engagements, in fights it only buys time). His Poison Touch is a nice early game slow but falls off, quickly. Some people consider Axe a counter to Dazzle because his chop goes through SG. People shouldn't think like that. I've used my heal to get people above the kill threshold ten times more than my shallow grave has pierced. He is good in any lineup he tanks up your squishy heroes, weakens their tanks heroes (even more so on their squishy) and keeps you in fits for a long time. I'd say tanky supports like ogre , jakiro are the best safe bets since you can get out of nasty situations most support cannot. Lich is an another example you shit on the enemy team from level 1 by eating your own creeps and maintain high level during the game. Nuke + being able to stay full mana is quite good. He is also easy to play. About batrider, it is nearly impossible to stop batrider initiation after blink & force, he can jungle pretty fast after getting a few levels, linken is a damn luxury item with a huge price tag. When anyone in your team buy linkens, bat should have count enough kills to justify himself. It is very hard to stop getting picked off if you have given up the map control, and the batman will contain the enemy team in their base. | ||
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Yurie
12175 Posts
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