On January 22 2015 01:49 Andre wrote: Thanks for a great reply. My question still remains though.
In the guide you linked there's these two priorities: 1.Closest enemy hero attacking a friendly hero with auto attack 2.Closest enemy creep attacking a friendly hero with auto attack
They don't seem to be true if you watch this video(ignore the point of the video, just focus on that particular moment where he attacks the sven). VIDEO
Even the guy probably gets confused, because he's waiting for the tower to switch to him lol.
I've always thought enemy hero attacking a friendly hero by rightclicking will force the tower to switch, but it's not the case. It seems the tower will only switch to the hero if he's in front of the creeps. Which in practice means you can harass people under their tower if you have range/movement speed advantage.
At least I think it's like that..
I can't watch the video since I'm on dumpster tier internet but those rules are not exactly correct, which is why I stated earlier that NOBODY in dota guide history to my knowledge has ever described ' aggro ' or what I like to refer to as ' threat ' in a simple precise way.
The actual rule for tower aggro is: 1. Closest enemy hero attacking a friendly hero with auto attack command issued WITHIN tower attack range WHILE threat is off cooldown. 2. Closest enemy creep attacking a friendly hero with auto attack command issued WITHIN tower attack range WHILE threat is on cooldown.
To test this and show you that ' threat ' is global you can do it very easily in a game [ I do it most games ] or just in a lobby. Let's say you're a ranged carry hero in the safe lane. You want to harass the enemy offlaner.
So, normally what you would do is go to where the creepwave meets, draw the initial threat AND trigger the cooldown to begin by right clicking the enemy offlaner [ HERO ] outside of the creeps attack range, but still in vision. So for the remaining 1.8 or whatever seconds you are free to literally do whatever the fuck you want and enemy creeps will not switch target to you.
That should be pretty basic, if its confusing its basically just the routine way range heroes harass other heroes in a lane without drawing aggro. I just put it in more specific words.
Now, here's the test: When the creepwave is pushed up to the T1 enemy tower you can do the same thing. Except, instead of right clicking the offlaner in your lane, switch your screen over to the mid laner or enemy safe laner [ any enemy hero away from your lane ] As soon as you do this, you have done the same thing as the basic scenario I described. You are again now completely free to harass the hero in your lane without fear of drawing creep aggro. The hero in this scenario I am describing is in front of his tower but behind or inside his creep wave. You are also entering tower attack range after you have triggered threat. This essentially proves that the mechanic that I refer to as ' threat ' is global as long as enemys have vision of your hero. Even though the guide I linked gives a finite number for the tower to aggro you, and then another finite number to be inside its attack range, that is in practice false.
As long as whatever tower it is that I want to trigger it's threat/aggro cd has sight of my hero. So theoretically if there was a cheat/skill/hero who could instantly move himself to another lane [ maybe kunkka x or disruptor glimpse could help test this ] you could trigger aggro in your own lane using the basic method then go to a completely different lane and be free to harass under the same conditions as long as the target lane you teleported had vision of you the whole time. I can trigger it by clicking any hero anywhere on the map and then proceed to use whatever's left of the 2 second window to do what I want knowing 100% the tower will not attack me unless I'm literally the only unit inside its range. I've tried explaining this in words before so if you're confused that's probably natural. But if you get what I'm saying you should be able to use it in practice and I believe it also explains the scenario in the video you linked. He's surprised that the tower didn't switch to him, but he probably doesn't know that he triggered threat and that the tower physically CANNOT attack him since it's waiting for its threat detect to be off cooldown so it can then follow the priorities listed in that guide I linked.
the tower only switches from attacking a creep when its current creep target dies
this is how you can stay under a tower and keep attacking opponent hero, just dont attack him as a creep is about to die then resume attacking again after tower hits a new creep
no idea what above post is saying, just stop attacking everything when tower is about to switch targets , then you can do what you want afterwards
On January 22 2015 17:51 FFGenerations wrote: the tower only switches from attacking a creep when its current creep target dies
this is how you can stay under a tower and keep attacking opponent hero, just dont attack him as a creep is about to die then resume attacking again after tower hits a new creep
no idea what above post is saying, just stop attacking everything when tower is about to switch targets , then you can do what you want afterwards
That's nonsense, if you issue an attack command on an enemy hero right next to an enemy tower, that tower WILL switch aggro to you. Go test it out.
UNLESS
the enemy tower is on aggro cooldown, which is what ack said.
This is a Dota 1 video, but it definitely works the same in Dota 2. Here, Super (on the weaver) manages to harass Dendi's pudge under tower because he issues an attack command on Dendi outside the 500 aggro range of the tower. This puts the tower aggro ai on cooldown, during which he is free to attack Dendi under the tower without drawing aggro.
Taken from that steam guide posted earlier, here is the priority of targets for a tower: 1. Closest enemy hero attacking a friendly hero with auto attack 2. Closest enemy creep attacking a friendly hero with auto attack 3. Closest enemy creep or hero attacking the tower itself with auto attack 4. Closest enemy creep or hero attacking any friendly unit with auto attack 5. Closest enemy creep or hero 6. Closest enemy catapult
And here is a list of actions/events that will cause the tower to choose a new target (resetting)
The targeted enemy creep or hero dies
The targeted enemy creep or hero becomes unattackable.
An enemy creep or hero targets a friendly hero
An enemy hero being attacked by the tower manually attacks an enemy creep or hero (This is the famous tower target switch technique, where you A-attack one of your creeps to "reset the aggro")
Focusing specifically on 'An enemy creep or hero targets a friendly hero', this is where the aggro ai cooldown comes in. I think we need to look at the aggro cooldown as being independent of the list of actions that reset the tower. There is no cooldown for the tower reset. If a tower kills a creep, chooses a new creep and that creep dies soon after, the tower won't sit there for 2 seconds wondering what the next target is.
What happens is that when you trigger the tower aggro (by issuing an attack command on any enemy hero in vision of the tower), the reset list changes to
The targeted enemy creep or hero dies
The targeted enemy creep or hero becomes unattackable.
An enemy creep targets a friendly hero
An enemy hero being attacked by the tower manually attacks an enemy creep or hero (This is the famous tower target switch technique, where you A-attack one of your creeps to "reset the aggro")
for the next 2 seconds. Basically, the 'enemy hero targets friendly hero' condition is removed.
Additional note: From the priority list, you can see that the catapult is always last to be targeted by the tower. With that in mind, you can prolong the life of the catapult by drawing tower aggro to your hero (by clicking on any enemy hero on the map while being within 500 range of that tower) and thus increase the potency of your push. When your new creep wave arrives, you can then switch aggro off yourself and onto your new creeps.
On January 22 2015 01:49 Andre wrote: Thanks for a great reply. My question still remains though.
In the guide you linked there's these two priorities: 1.Closest enemy hero attacking a friendly hero with auto attack 2.Closest enemy creep attacking a friendly hero with auto attack
They don't seem to be true if you watch this video(ignore the point of the video, just focus on that particular moment where he attacks the sven). VIDEO
Even the guy probably gets confused, because he's waiting for the tower to switch to him lol.
I've always thought enemy hero attacking a friendly hero by rightclicking will force the tower to switch, but it's not the case. It seems the tower will only switch to the hero if he's in front of the creeps. Which in practice means you can harass people under their tower if you have range/movement speed advantage.
At least I think it's like that..
that video is really fucking weird though, the tinker literally sits within range of tower issueing attack commands for several seconds on the sven without drawing aggro. I'm willing to bet though that it's because of -wtf mode enabled or some janky interaction with bots
ok so I found this video demonstrates a few things. I'm going to refer to the antimage on the left who is just attacking as the 'static antimage'
so at 0:05, the antimage on the right issues an attack command and immediately runs away. however, the tower aggro stays on the static antimage. if you pay close attention though, you can see that the attack command was given before the tower fired. by the time the tower was ready to attack again, the antimage was running away and no longer attacking. therefore, if we remind ourselves of the priority list again
1. Closest enemy hero attacking a friendly hero with auto attack 2. Closest enemy creep attacking a friendly hero with auto attack 3. Closest enemy creep or hero attacking the tower itself with auto attack 4. Closest enemy creep or hero attacking any friendly unit with auto attack 5. Closest enemy creep or hero 6. Closest enemy catapult
we can see that the tower continued to attack the static antimage because he's #1 on that list (the antimage running away is #5). from this, I think i think it's safe to say that the tower chooses its target just before it starts a new attack. this also explains those moments where I'm pushing a tower with my creeps, my creeps are attacking the enemy creeps and I'm the only one attacking the tower. When the tower starts attacking me, I a-click my own creeps, target the tower again but the tower continues to attack me. This is because while I reset the tower aggro, I was at a higher priority because i immediately resumed attacking the tower (I was at #3, my creeps were at #4). What I should do is a-click my creeps, wait until the tower actually attacks one of my other creeps, and then resume attacking the tower.
now fast forward to 0:16
the antimage this time successfully draws tower aggro and runs back to a distance where he is still in range of the tower. the tower hits him two more times, before attacking the static antimage again. this corresponds to the two seconds of aggro cooldown. as soon as the two seconds elapsed, the tower aggro was reset by the static antimage's autoattacks.
That AM video is really great. I thought the priorities change inbetween the 2sec aggro timing but it seems to be between every attack. If you had two people who really knew how to abuse these priorities you could dive all day.
although that shit at 0:38 is weird. the tower hits the static antimage, then attacks the other antimage once, before going back to the static. I really can't explain that one
its possible that he became the nearest unit to the tower (he moves forwards and doesnt quite look the nearest but its impossible to tell for sure)
it makes sense that tower can change aggro before the current creep dies because thats how catapults survive before the next creep wave comes, they take 1 or 2 hits but then the next creeps come along
so maybe 1) tower aggro changes at any time based on unit distance (NOT MENTIONED BY THE WIKI) 2) otherwise tower aggro changes when the current creep dies (what i thought happens)
I think that's just a very special exception for the catapult - a tower will immediately switch aggro if any non-catapult unit enters its range even if none of the reset events occured. I don't think the tower will otherwise spontaneously switch to another target just because it's closer.
why are there literally 680,000 people watching Burning play pubs right now, and what is all that shit text spam on the screen http://www.liquiddota.com/stream/BurNIng
all i can see is that he moves closer then it suddenly changes target without the creep dying
there is definitely something wrong with the interactions there, I'll test it when I get home but the tower should have aggro'd onto tinker long before he moved closer
On January 22 2015 22:07 FFGenerations wrote: why are there literally 680,000 people watching Burning play pubs right now, and what is all that shit text spam on the screen http://www.liquiddota.com/stream/BurNIng
You can turn off the chat on the screen by pressing the << or >> button in the bottom next to the volume bar.
On January 23 2015 00:04 Comeh wrote: Okay there is a reddit thread on this, but I don't trust the source.
Do multiple layers of linkens stack? Does the user first have to cast it on themselves, and then the next one on top of that?
Is there a limitation?
Well from the videos in that reddit thread, it looks like you need to buff yourself with your own linkens in order for it to stack with an ally's linkens buff.
What happens if all four teammates put their linkens buffs on you? Well I'm at work so I can't test that
You can only cast one level of Linkens on a person, if that pops you can re-cast another shield. *shawdy dota 1 knowledge
As for the Tinker Tower video, he re-right clicked Sven as he moved closer to the tower than the creep. Therefore the tower readjusted it's aggro and switched to closer proximity Tinker.
On January 23 2015 01:01 Slardar wrote: You can only cast one level of Linkens on a person, if that pops you can re-cast another shield. *shawdy dota 1 knowledge
As for the Tinker Tower video, he re-right clicked Sven as he moved closer to the tower than the creep. Therefore the tower readjusted it's aggro and switched to closer proximity Tinker.
Why didn't he draw aggro from the tower for the 4-5 seconds of attacking the sven before that?
edit: omg I'm an idiot and didn't even pay attention to the fact that the creeps were also hitting the sven. So tinker WAS resetting the tower aggro, but the creeps both attacking sven AND closer to the tower, so they were hit. The tower doesn't differentiate between heroes and creeps when deciding which target to attack
ok that's explained now, tower AI working as thought
On January 23 2015 01:15 Slardar wrote: He didn't reissue a right click command that's why. If you're auto attacking away it's 1 chain of command understood by the tower.
Once you move and attack something again, the Tower reassesses the threat levels of the targets based on proximity etc.
at 0:18 the tower suddenly switches aggro off the antimage that ran back and back onto the autoattacking antimage. Note that the autoattacking antimage just autoattacked throughout the entire duration of that video, no orders were issued to it.
This would also make tower diving super imba because you could click on an enemy hero outside of aggro range of the tower, and then you'll be able to tower dive indefinitely because the tower would never aggro you. This doesn't happen and you can test it for yourself
I can't watch with sound because I'm at work, but it was the same pattern as the Tinker Video. At 0:20ish he went in and issued a right click, the tower swapped to the closer Antimage. Under fire AM ran further back, but was still being attacked because the other AM didn't issue any right click command he was auto attacking away. What seems to be the problem here officer?
EPT
