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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On January 23 2015 01:22 Slardar wrote:
I can't watch with sound because I'm at work, but it was the same pattern as the Tinker Video. At 0:20ish he went in and issued a right click, the tower swapped to the closer Antimage. Under fire AM ran further back, but was still being attacked because the other AM didn't issue any right click command he was auto attacking away. What seems to be the problem here officer?
Ok keep watching, the tower hits the am that ran away 2 more times, and then suddenly switches to the autoattacking AM. How do you explain this?
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Because there are other ways towers assess than just a manual right click. He TOOK the cookie from the other AM by issuing a right click, ran further away and attacked nothing. The other AM is still wailing away on another hero building up threat. Therefore he took aggro back from the farther away AM.
This is how I've understood tower aggro from Dota 1, it's all experience no technical knowledge so I may be wrong. The WoW analogy makes the most sense to explain it though from how I learned it.
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I'm sure it has to do with the 2 second aggro cd
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On January 23 2015 01:27 Slardar wrote:
Because there are other ways towers assess than just a manual right click. He TOOK the cookie from the other AM by issuing a right click, ran further away and attacked nothing. The other AM is still wailing away on another hero building up threat. Therefore he took aggro back from the farther away AM.
This is how I've understood tower aggro from Dota 1, it's all experience no technical knowledge so I may be wrong.
???
but according to you, because the other AM didnt' issue any attack commands and was just autoattacking, it shouldn't take tower aggro.
"building up threat"? lol towers don't have a threat meter, there's no "oh this hero has attacked a friendly hero 3 times, i should switch aggro to him now"
Your explanations are basically handwavey at this point. You don't even elaborate what "other ways" towers assess aggro. There is no difference between a manual attack command and an autoattack when it comes to aggro ai.
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It's all just experience playing, so I precursor everything with how it's not technical knowledge just playing.
These are different scenarios, both Tinker & the creeps are attacking Sven. In this video AM takes aggro through a manual right click and runs away doing nothing. The other AM still is attacking an enemy hero under the range of a tower, auto attack or manual doesn't take precedence over a hero being under attack in closer proximity to the tower.
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Wasn't there something really wonky with Dota 1 aggro whenever there were observers in the game?
Maybe there's some weird stuff going on from the single player with bots mode. Someone should try in a private lobby with a friend to see if this works. That tinker sven video looks incredibly dubious to me. I've never seen that happen in a real game. I've certainly been farther away from creeps attacking an enemy hero under a tower and had the tower aggro to me when I attacked the hero.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On January 23 2015 01:36 Slardar wrote:
It's all just experience playing, so I precursor everything with how it's not technical knowledge just playing.
These are different scenarios, both Tinker & the creeps are attacking Sven. In this video AM takes aggro through a manual right click and runs away doing nothing. The other AM still is attacking an enemy hero under the range of a tower, auto attack or manual doesn't take precedence over a hero being under attack in closer proximity to the tower.
Can you please stop? I mean, you're makign excuses that everything you're saying is based off experience and no technical knowledge, and then using that excuse to justify your increasingly convoluted explanations.
how does this
The other AM still is attacking an enemy hero under the range of a tower, auto attack or manual doesn't take precedence over a hero being under attack in closer proximity to the tower.
not apply to the tinker and sven case??? the tinker is attacking the sven. the creeps are attacking the sven. The tower doesn't distinguish between them, so it attacks the closest enemy unit that is attacking the sven. It's only when the tinker is the closest unit to the tower that the tower starts attacking it. That the tinker was just autoattacking or manually attacking IS IRRELEVANT
this entire debate is centred around proving why this:
On January 23 2015 01:15 Slardar wrote:
He didn't reissue a right click command that's why. If you're auto attacking away it's 1 chain of command understood by the tower.
Once you move and attack something again, the Tower reassesses the threat levels of the targets based on proximity /defending heroes etc.
is a load of bs
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On January 23 2015 01:39 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
I've certainly been farther away from creeps attacking an enemy hero under a tower and had the tower aggro to me when I attacked the hero.
Are you sure your creeps weren't attacking enemy creeps or the tower, and not the hero? Because that would put them further down the aggro priority list
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On January 23 2015 01:49 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 01:36 Slardar wrote:
It's all just experience playing, so I precursor everything with how it's not technical knowledge just playing.
These are different scenarios, both Tinker & the creeps are attacking Sven. In this video AM takes aggro through a manual right click and runs away doing nothing. The other AM still is attacking an enemy hero under the range of a tower, auto attack or manual doesn't take precedence over a hero being under attack in closer proximity to the tower.
Can you please stop? I mean, you're makign excuses that everything you're saying is based off experience and no technical knowledge, and then using that excuse to justify your increasingly convoluted explanations. how does this Show nested quote +The other AM still is attacking an enemy hero under the range of a tower, auto attack or manual doesn't take precedence over a hero being under attack in closer proximity to the tower. not apply to the tinker and sven case??? the tinker is attacking the sven. the creeps are attacking the sven. The tower doesn't distinguish between them, so it attacks the closest enemy unit that is attacking the sven. It's only when the tinker is the closest unit to the tower that the tower starts attacking it. That the tinker was just autoattacking or manually attacking IS IRRELEVANT
Okay look it makes sense, I just suck at explaining. Like I said there are multiple ways a tower assess what to attack. (Heroes being attacked, proximity to the tower itself, manual right clicking etc are the 3 relevant here.)
The tinker was closest AND he issued a manual right click, which is why he drew aggro. Carbon copy with the Antimage video. The two videos aren't the same scenario though. This auto attack rule is irrelevant in relation to the AM Video, because the means he uses to draw Aggro are walking in A) Closer Proximity and B) Attacking a hero. Then he does not maintain threat, if he stood there and attacked he would hold the aggro.
He ran farther away, and is attacking nothing. So the tower bounces back to defend a hero being attacked and in closer range. Right, yes?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On January 23 2015 01:56 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 01:49 ahswtini wrote:On January 23 2015 01:36 Slardar wrote:
It's all just experience playing, so I precursor everything with how it's not technical knowledge just playing.
These are different scenarios, both Tinker & the creeps are attacking Sven. In this video AM takes aggro through a manual right click and runs away doing nothing. The other AM still is attacking an enemy hero under the range of a tower, auto attack or manual doesn't take precedence over a hero being under attack in closer proximity to the tower.
Can you please stop? I mean, you're makign excuses that everything you're saying is based off experience and no technical knowledge, and then using that excuse to justify your increasingly convoluted explanations. how does this The other AM still is attacking an enemy hero under the range of a tower, auto attack or manual doesn't take precedence over a hero being under attack in closer proximity to the tower. not apply to the tinker and sven case??? the tinker is attacking the sven. the creeps are attacking the sven. The tower doesn't distinguish between them, so it attacks the closest enemy unit that is attacking the sven. It's only when the tinker is the closest unit to the tower that the tower starts attacking it. That the tinker was just autoattacking or manually attacking IS IRRELEVANT Okay look it makes sense, I just suck at explaining. Like I said there are multiple ways a tower assess what to attack. (Heroes being attacked, proximity to the tower itself, manual right clicking etc are the 3 relevant here.) The tinker was closest AND he issued a manual right click, which is why he drew aggro. Carbon copy with the Antimage video. The two videos aren't the same scenario though. This auto attack rule is irrelevant in relation to the AM Video, because the means he uses to draw Aggro are walking in A) Closer Proximity and B) Attacking a hero. Then he does not maintain threat, if he stood there and attacked he would hold the aggro. He ran farther away, and is attacking nothing. So the tower bounces back to defend a hero being attacked and in closer range. Right, yes?
Well it seems you disagree with the Aggro Priority List and with the Aggro Reset List, since you're lumping Heroes being attacked (which imo is part of the aggro priority list) with Manual right click (which is part of the Aggro reset list).
Yes, the tinker was closest AND issued a manual right click, and yes that is why he drew aggro. This has nothing to do with the fact that he issued a manual right click and wasn't just autoattacking. An autoattack and a manual attack is the SAME THING to tower/creep aggro ai, and you just can't seem to accept this.
Basically, what you're saying is an autoattack won't cause towers/creeps to reset their aggro?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
Look, in the Tinker video it may look like the tower aggro wasn't resetting because the tinker was autoattacking the sven. This is wrong, the tower aggro was definitely resetting throughout that. It's just that everytime it resets, it goes through its Aggro Priority List and targets the nearest enemy unit that is attacking an allied hero. Which happens to be the creep it was attacking before its aggro was reset. Therefore it doesn't look like its aggro ever reset but it definitely was resetting.
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Can you explain these two sentences for me?
+ Show Spoiler +Heroes being attacked (which imo is part of the aggro priority list) with Manual right click (which is part of the Aggro reset list).
An autoattack and a manual attack is the SAME THING to tower/creep aggro ai, and you just can't seem to accept this.
How are they the same thing, you yourself made a distinction. They CAN be the same if you use auto-attack in some scenarios, in others Manual will reset the threat as you said.
As for the Tinker video, yes I could be wrong or not. For the sake of argument, let's say it was technically resetting. My only focus was to explain the tower's behavior, not on technicality which was already prefaced.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On January 23 2015 02:15 Slardar wrote:Can you explain these two sentences for me? + Show Spoiler +Heroes being attacked (which imo is part of the aggro priority list) with Manual right click (which is part of the Aggro reset list).
An autoattack and a manual attack is the SAME THING to tower/creep aggro ai, and you just can't seem to accept this. How are they the same thing, you yourself made a distinction. They CAN be the same if you use auto-attack in some scenarios, in others Manual will reset the threat as you said.
I was using your words there when you said 'manual right click'. Both manual right clicks AND autoattacks are part of the Aggro Reset List. That list is a list of actions/conditions that will cause a tower/creeps to re-evaluate what target to attack. That evaluation uses the Aggro Priority List. The two lists are otherwise completely independent of each other.
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On January 23 2015 02:18 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 02:15 Slardar wrote:Can you explain these two sentences for me? + Show Spoiler +Heroes being attacked (which imo is part of the aggro priority list) with Manual right click (which is part of the Aggro reset list).
An autoattack and a manual attack is the SAME THING to tower/creep aggro ai, and you just can't seem to accept this. How are they the same thing, you yourself made a distinction. They CAN be the same if you use auto-attack in some scenarios, in others Manual will reset the threat as you said. I was using your words there when you said 'manual right click'. Both manual right clicks AND autoattacks are part of the Aggro Reset List. That list is a list of actions/conditions that will cause a tower/creeps to re-evaluate what target to attack. That evaluation uses the Aggro Priority List. The two lists are otherwise completely independent of each other.
Either way, like I already prefaced my focus is not on technicality or the lists. I was trying to explain why the tower was doing what it's doing and I did so correctly in both videos. Did I not?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
Right, but that isn't the issue. This issue is this post
On January 23 2015 01:15 Slardar wrote:
He didn't reissue a right click command that's why. If you're auto attacking away it's 1 chain of command understood by the tower.
Once you move and attack something again, the Tower reassesses the threat levels of the targets based on proximity /defending heroes etc.
which is wrong. Autoattacking is not one chain of command. Think of it like this - everytime a hero or creep autoattacks, they are making a manual attack order. You were saying that the reason the tower never targeted tinker beforehand was because he didn't reissue a right click command. That's wrong. The tower didn't target tinker because there were closer threats.
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I don't know why I said that second sentence, I know it's not a chain of attack how else could I explain that when we were talking about the AM Video only moments later. Chalk it up due to multitasking at work/brain/etc?
You could be right about the manual / auto attack thing though. I never play with Auto Attack on so I have no knowledge about it vs manual. I'm just sure on how the tower operates.
Okay then let's go back to this Tinker. If he hypothetically moved around not closer to the tower and then right clicked Sven, you're saying he wouldn't draw aggro because the creeps are closer threats? Is that not incorrect? The ACT of manual right clicking draws aggro from the tower, yes?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On January 23 2015 02:44 Slardar wrote:
I don't know why I said that second sentence, I know it's not a chain of attack how else could I explain that when we were talking about the AM Video only moments later. Chalk it up due to multitasking at work/brain/etc?
You could be right about the manual / auto attack thing though. I never play with Auto Attack on so I have no knowledge about it vs manual. I'm just sure on how the tower operates. Let me make a hypothetical.
Okay then let's go back to this Tinker. If he hypothetically moved around not closer to the tower and then right clicked Sven, you're saying he wouldn't draw aggro because the creeps are closer threats? Is that not incorrect? The ACT of manual right clicking draws aggro from the tower, yes?
Yes he wouldn't draw aggro, provided that the creeps are also attacking the sven. The act of manual right clicking (or autoattacking) will cause the tower aggro to reset (PROVIDED the aggro ai is not on cooldown). When tower aggro resets, the tower will go down the priority target list in order to decide which target to attack. In the case of the tinker, both the tinker and his creeps are attacking the sven. They are on the same priority level, and so the tower uses distance as a 'tiebreaker' so to speak.
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I'm pretty damn sure you can thief aggro by manual right clicking, you don't have to be necessarily the closest target to the tower. Manual is higher up on threat list than proximity?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
Manual is no different to autoattacking, stop trying to treat them separately. Proximity is used to tiebreak between units that are at the same threat tier. The threat tier is purely determined by what those units are attacking.
Highest tier is when a unit is attacking a friendly hero. Second highest is when a unit is attacking the tower itself. Third is when the unit is attacking any other friendly unit (ie. creeps). The final tier is a unit that running around or standing there. Actually I lied, the final tier are catapults, the tower will only target them if they are the only unit in range.
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Is it possible the tinker is outside the aggro range? Though I think that's not very likely as he's quite close to the tower initially.
If heroes/creeps would be on the same priority level wouldn't you just be able to attack a hero under tower anytime a creep would also attack the hero, as long as you'd time it right? Even in aggro range that is.
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EPT
