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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 1024

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
January 22 2015 20:07 GMT
#20461
Ok I went into a sandbox game and recorded some tests. I'll annotate bits of it.


So at 0:07, the Morty Antimage is aggro'd by the tower simply because he is the only enemy unit in range.

At 0:12, Antimage starts attacking the enemy Gob Bot, but he does so OUTSIDE of the 500 tower aggro range. The tower aggro range is much shorter than the tower attack range. Because of this, the tower continues to attack Morty.

At 0:25, I move Gob Bot closer to his tower. Because Antimage is autoattacking him, he follows him and continues to attack. Now that he is closer to the tower than Morty, the tower attacks him. Note that I didn't give Antimage any manual order to attack.

At 0:33, I move Gob Bot away from his tower again, and then move Flo Bot closer to the tower so that Morty follows follows him and ends up closer to the tower. The tower switches to Morty. I'm not giving any orders to the radiant antimages, I'm only moving the dire antimages.

At 0:57, I order both radiant antimages to stop attacking. The aggro is currently on Morty. I move Morty away from the tower, and Antimage closer to the tower. Then I select Morty, and a-click on Antimage (this causes the tower aggro to reset). Both antimages are on the same threat tier (they are just standing there), but the tower attacks Antimage because he is closer.

At 1:05, I order Morty to attack. This again triggers the tower aggro reset. The tower prioritises Morty now, because he's attacking.

At 1:17, I move Antimage right next to the tower and have him attack Gob. The tower aggros him (as it should, because he's closer to the tower than Morty is). Now I select Morty and spam attack commands on Flo. Despite this, the tower continues to fire on Antimage. Now, the tower does shoot once at Morty. This is because just as the tower was evaluating who to attack, Antimage was in between autoattacks. The tower didn't judge him to be attacking, and so attacked Morty instead. Note that Morty has a butterfly, whereas Antimage just has three evasion talismans (so Morty attacks faster).

At 1:38, I move Gob away from the tower, dragging Antimage with him (and out of the 500 tower aggro range). Then I order Morty to stop attacking. The tower continues to attack Morty. I move Antimage back within aggro range, and the tower switches to him.


The basic take-home point is, autoattacks and manual attacks are the same when it comes to aggro.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
January 22 2015 20:18 GMT
#20462
On January 23 2015 05:04 Andre wrote:
Is it possible the tinker is outside the aggro range? Though I think that's not very likely as he's quite close to the tower initially.

If heroes/creeps would be on the same priority level wouldn't you just be able to attack a hero under tower anytime a creep would also attack the hero, as long as you'd time it right? Even in aggro range that is.

I think you're right actualy, the tinker was outside the aggro range.

[image loading]
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
January 22 2015 21:24 GMT
#20463
I was thinking since morbid mask is the cheapest option for lifesteal would it be too op to have lifesteal item with less cost (lets say 500) and like 7-8% lifesteal? Would make multiple heroes early jungling a lot more viable i think?
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-22 21:37:56
January 22 2015 21:30 GMT
#20464
those are called tangoes

lifesteal itself is just farming sustain early game and doesn't outperform cheap regen

its power is lategame when u hit for 250+ dmg at which point 900g is super cheap anyway and u want it to build into something GG

Notable exceptions are heroes who can rosh with lifesteal, who both need the high% and for balance reasons generally really don't need a way to do faster rosh lol
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7596 Posts
January 22 2015 21:34 GMT
#20465
Well TIL Ahswtini there is no difference. At 1:19 you spam manual right click then the tower switches, but then you switch to the other AM do the same thing and no reaction. Kind of what? Tower is drugged, his testimony thrown out the court!
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
January 22 2015 22:37 GMT
#20466
On January 23 2015 06:34 Slardar wrote:
Well TIL Ahswtini there is no difference. At 1:19 you spam manual right click then the tower switches, but then you switch to the other AM do the same thing and no reaction. Kind of what? Tower is drugged, his testimony thrown out the court!


It chooses the closest hero that is attacking.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7596 Posts
January 22 2015 22:49 GMT
#20467
Yeah nevermind lol. For some reason the manual was too hard wired into my brain had to irrationally defend that chunk of knowledge.
Jaeger
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1150 Posts
January 22 2015 23:16 GMT
#20468
On January 23 2015 04:32 ahswtini wrote:
Actually I lied, the final tier are catapults, the tower will only target them if they are the only unit in range.


IIRC it targets catapults before wards.
https://www.dotabuff.com/players/8137911
khy
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States475 Posts
January 23 2015 22:21 GMT
#20469
why is juggernaut high tier these days?
Unleashing
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark14978 Posts
January 23 2015 22:24 GMT
#20470
His buffed BAT and +6 agi made him incredibly strong both early and late making him overall just strong.
From the Ghastly Eyrie I can see to the ends of the world, and from this vantage point I declare with utter certainty that this one is in the bag!
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
January 23 2015 22:24 GMT
#20471
On January 24 2015 07:21 khy wrote:
why is juggernaut high tier these days?

He's been on the cusp but the boost in his starting agility pretty much put him over the top. He's a crazy right clicker with a devastating ult, high, built-in magic immunity uptime, great farming ability, great pushing utility with his healing ward, and now his early laning is the best it's ever been, even after the compensatory -AC nerf.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Kreb
Profile Joined September 2010
4834 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-23 22:28:47
January 23 2015 22:27 GMT
#20472
On January 24 2015 07:21 khy wrote:
why is juggernaut high tier these days?

Multiple buffs throughout patches and people discovered his right click power. Before he was considered a very weak manfighter and people would mostly build Agh on him just to maximize his ult (which has always been good). The drums -> Agh build still wasnt seeing much success but when people started with the mass-stats and mom/yasha/maestrom/basher/etc builds then right click power coupled with strong farming and roshing ability he really had after all buffs really showed.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 24 2015 00:20 GMT
#20473
Stats build just opened up a ton of item options for him that weren't reasonable before. The hero badly needs +all stats early game to support his overall gameplay, but Drums and Agha being the only reasonable sources before limited the kinds of games you could use the hero in. With stats from skill points though, you open up a ton of other items since you no longer need to buffer a ton of stats from items.
Moderator
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
January 24 2015 21:11 GMT
#20474
What does the note on Troll's Rage about Manta Style mean?
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Unleashing
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark14978 Posts
January 24 2015 21:23 GMT
#20475
That melee illusions can't bash.
From the Ghastly Eyrie I can see to the ends of the world, and from this vantage point I declare with utter certainty that this one is in the bag!
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
January 24 2015 22:04 GMT
#20476
On January 25 2015 06:23 Unleashing wrote:
That melee illusions can't bash.

It says "Manta Style's cooldown time will be based on whether Troll Warlord was in his ranged or melee form when the item was used."

I understand illusions not bashing but wtf does this mean?
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Unleashing
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark14978 Posts
January 24 2015 22:05 GMT
#20477
That manta style's cooldown will be based upon wether he was in ranged or melee form when he used manta? I don't know man that's pretty self explanatory.
Manta has different stats and cooldowns for melee and ranged heroes.
From the Ghastly Eyrie I can see to the ends of the world, and from this vantage point I declare with utter certainty that this one is in the bag!
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
January 24 2015 22:13 GMT
#20478
On January 25 2015 07:05 Unleashing wrote:
That manta style's cooldown will be based upon wether he was in ranged or melee form when he used manta? I don't know man that's pretty self explanatory.
Manta has different stats and cooldowns for melee and ranged heroes.

Ah, that last part I was not aware of. I almost never build manta on a ranged hero. Makes sense now.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12273 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-24 22:44:04
January 24 2015 22:42 GMT
#20479
It should say "Manta Style's active ability will be based upon" or "Manta Style's illusions will be based upon", not "Manta Style's cooldown time" which makes it sound like the item has a different cooldown whether Troll is in ranged or melee form.

e: Just looked it up and it's a 15 sec cd difference for ranged vs melee heroes. Learn something new about this damn game everyday.
Moderator
Unleashing
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark14978 Posts
January 24 2015 22:46 GMT
#20480
But it does have a different cooldown depending on if he's ranged or melee?
From the Ghastly Eyrie I can see to the ends of the world, and from this vantage point I declare with utter certainty that this one is in the bag!
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