EPT1. Why are Asians bad vs Meepo?
2. 6th Slot - 2nd Skadi or Manta or DIFFUSAL (wow)?
3. Is there a point in balance theorycrafting a hero that only 1% of the competitive players play and provide data for?
[Hero] Meepo - Page 19
| Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy |
|
hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
1. Why are Asians bad vs Meepo? 2. 6th Slot - 2nd Skadi or Manta or DIFFUSAL (wow)? 3. Is there a point in balance theorycrafting a hero that only 1% of the competitive players play and provide data for? | ||
|
DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On November 20 2015 05:13 hariooo wrote: Relevant topic is now relevant. 1. Why are Asians bad vs Meepo? 2. 6th Slot - 2nd Skadi or Manta or DIFFUSAL (wow)? 3. Is there a point in balance theorycrafting a hero that only 1% of the competitive players play and provide data for? 1. The Chinese generally are stubborn and inflexible in their play style and approach to the game. Meepo is a hero that is very very different from their traditional picks. So they probably do not want to practise the hero at all. Add that not every player has the ability to play a meepo. Some just can't handle multiple units. I don't really think that Chinese are bad against meepo. It is more like because of their approach to the game, they don't expect a meepo pick to appear (unless against certain players like w33). It simply doesn't register as a pick to be wary of. Hence when the meepo pick comes, they are totally unprepared and outdrafted, and hence they look 'bad'. 2. Bot blink agha hex skadi eblade. 3. I'd say they should only change when you can skill your ulti. | ||
|
BobMcJohnson
France2916 Posts
Manta probably has uses in games where you have to rat really hard to win, but I never really was in a situations where I would have built it, and it's way harder to use to its full potential than the other alternatives. Though there are certainly a shitload of really fun next level plays that you can make with the poof to illus. 3. It's has such a ridiculously high skillfloor at pro level that only two people bother playing him and have good results. It's such a niche hero it would be stupid to nerf him because 90% of the pro teams wont bother learning how to play with or against him. I mean it's their fucking job to win at dota. It's in a kinda similar situation as techies at TI5 on a pro-level perspective, except it's mechanically wayyyyyyyyyy harder to play, easier to counter, and it doesn't ruin pubs like techies did. Aka. he's perfectly fine, a super niche surprise pick, with a super high skill cap but still powerful enough to win games when the player masters him near perfectly. If that's not some kind of game designer wet dream i dunno what is. If all the pro teams decide that he's op and they all start playing him, yeah go ahead and nerf him but whiles theres only w33ha and notail who play him he's fine in my book. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On November 20 2015 05:22 DucK- wrote: 1. The Chinese generally are stubborn and inflexible in their play style and approach to the game. Meepo is a hero that is very very different from their traditional picks. So they probably do not want to practise the hero at all. Add that not every player has the ability to play a meepo. Some just can't handle multiple units. I don't really think that Chinese are bad against meepo. It is more like because of their approach to the game, they don't expect a meepo pick to appear (unless against certain players like w33). It simply doesn't register as a pick to be wary of. Hence when the meepo pick comes, they are totally unprepared and outdrafted, and hence they look 'bad'. 2. Bot blink agha hex skadi eblade. 3. I'd say they should only change when you can skill your ulti. i feel like vs some of the meta heroes this patch, bots first may be slightly greedy. and if you're going bot blink THEN agha, you have like no hp and are just asking to have your shit pushed in which further makes me think that the build is greedy. fairly positive there are only a few situations where going blink THEN agha is better unless something in the current patch has changed. i know in the past ive said that blink first CAN work, but i dont think its meant to be an every game kinda thing. its meant to be something you get bc you know you can do work with it and even still..im not sure its worth picking up first anyway bc you can farm it quickly once you get your agha up and running. | ||
|
DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On November 20 2015 09:42 BluemoonSC wrote: i feel like vs some of the meta heroes this patch, bots first may be slightly greedy. and if you're going bot blink THEN agha, you have like no hp and are just asking to have your shit pushed in which further makes me think that the build is greedy. fairly positive there are only a few situations where going blink THEN agha is better unless something in the current patch has changed. i know in the past ive said that blink first CAN work, but i dont think its meant to be an every game kinda thing. its meant to be something you get bc you know you can do work with it and even still..im not sure its worth picking up first anyway bc you can farm it quickly once you get your agha up and running. I wasn't saying that as an item order. Just listing the 6 slot  | ||
|
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
| ||
|
Archeon
3253 Posts
On November 20 2015 08:50 BobMcJohnson wrote: 2. (disclaimer: I'm bad at dota but meepo is my 2nd most played) Yeah eblade is the default, better rightclick and blink > eblade > poof wrecks faces, though a 2nd skadi can help if you're having survivability troubles vs magic damage. Manta probably has uses in games where you have to rat really hard to win, but I never really was in a situations where I would have built it, and it's way harder to use to its full potential than the other alternatives. Though there are certainly a shitload of really fun next level plays that you can make with the poof to illus. 3. It's has such a ridiculously high skillfloor at pro level that only two people bother playing him and have good results. It's such a niche hero it would be stupid to nerf him because 90% of the pro teams wont bother learning how to play with or against him. I mean it's their fucking job to win at dota. It's in a kinda similar situation as techies at TI5 on a pro-level perspective, except it's mechanically wayyyyyyyyyy harder to play, easier to counter, and it doesn't ruin pubs like techies did. Aka. he's perfectly fine, a super niche surprise pick, with a super high skill cap but still powerful enough to win games when the player masters him near perfectly. If that's not some kind of game designer wet dream i dunno what is. If all the pro teams decide that he's op and they all start playing him, yeah go ahead and nerf him but whiles theres only w33ha and notail who play him he's fine in my book. Dunno, I'd change him for the same reason why I'd change brood or huskar. While dota is a game full of specialists, some specialists are too strong if against a lineup that's bad at handling them. So i'd prolly reduce poof damage a bit and make him a bit more resistant to splash damage (especially bfury). Try to make him less hit or miss. | ||
|
evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
shit's brutal you're lvl 20 when everyone's lvl 10 you die you die for YEARS! is the true way to rat until a good opening and avoid bad team fights and just rat more? | ||
|
hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On November 20 2015 10:14 Blackfeather wrote: Dunno, I'd change him for the same reason why I'd change brood or huskar. While dota is a game full of specialists, some specialists are too strong if against a lineup that's bad at handling them. So i'd prolly reduce poof damage a bit and make him a bit more resistant to splash damage (especially bfury). Try to make him less hit or miss. Nah that's LoL style balancing no thanks. | ||
|
Archeon
3253 Posts
On November 21 2015 00:34 hariooo wrote: Nah that's LoL style balancing no thanks. You are overexaggerating. Atm meepo in pro games is pretty akin to Broodmother or Huskar. If he's drafted in the right situation as fourth or fifth pick you can just stop watching the match. I don't mind outdrafts, but dealing with meepo needs too many heroes and there are too little available that deal really well with him. In addition the best one is a top pick, so even if you ban ember the enemies don't necessarily see it coming. | ||
|
hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
| ||
|
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On November 20 2015 17:27 evanthebouncy! wrote: how to deal with the death timer shit's brutal you're lvl 20 when everyone's lvl 10 you die you die for YEARS! is the true way to rat until a good opening and avoid bad team fights and just rat more? Doesn't he still have a 20% shorter respawn? Yeah use your bots to constantly push out lanes with your other meepos. Keep your prime meepo's bots off cd to bots mass poof and then blink-hex an unsuspecting enemy. Just make sure other heroes are accounted for otherwise you might be getting baited. | ||
|
Thetwinmasters
3578 Posts
On November 22 2015 03:55 BluemoonSC wrote: Doesn't he still have a 20% shorter respawn? Yeah use your bots to constantly push out lanes with your other meepos. Keep your prime meepo's bots off cd to bots mass poof and then blink-hex an unsuspecting enemy. Just make sure other heroes are accounted for otherwise you might be getting baited. reduced timer got canned in 6.84 | ||
|
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
Ah I thought that was a nerf reverting the scaling 30% shorter to 20%. That must have been the previous patch. Dunno, don't think that it's too huge of an issue more than say an am. If you're THAT much higher you're probably soaking up too much farm from your team? | ||
|
Archeon
3253 Posts
On November 21 2015 05:15 hariooo wrote: Brood/Meepo/Huskar are not top picks though. How are they OP? They aren't op per se. They are op in situations and special drafts or against drafts that lack counters. Example in Frankfurt (roughly 100 games): Meepo is 2:0. Huskar is 6:3. Brood is 6:2. Now you can argue that the sample size is very small, which is true, especially for Meepo, and that there are multiple heroes who have similar stats (Abbadon is 2:0 f.e. as well). The difference is that all three received numerous bans, especially in the fourth and fifth phase. Meepo was banned in 10 games, with only two teams playing him. Now both teams got to the finale and OG played lots of matches, but still, being banned in 10% of the matches is no small feat for a hero who is like never first picked. Huskar got banned 28 times. Brood got only picked 8 times, but received 39 bans, overall being picked or banned in 47% (!) of the matches. Compare that to other heroes who have a winrate as high or higher than huskar (mostly thanks to low number of games played): The only hero who received more bans than meepo (who as I said was played only by two teams) was bh, who received 12 picks and 11 bans. All of them received pretty much exclusively 2nd and 3rd phase bans. | ||
|
goody153
44115 Posts
On November 21 2015 05:15 hariooo wrote: Brood/Meepo/Huskar are not top picks though. How are they OP? In competitive scenario picking meepo/huskar/brood requires a special draft around it since those heroes don't compliment draft(like those heroes need to be worked around) but rather are engines of it (unlike qop/sf which are pretty much good pick most of the time .. ok maybe brood too can be a complement but it's pretty rare ) and the enemy draft needs to be terrible against it. All 3 are very good 4th/5th material where it works as a surprise pick(outdraft) and there's little to no room for enemy drafters to draft against it but 1st/2nd picking can pretty much end up in a disaster. In pubs just hits towers+heroes and pubs aren't coordinated enough to stop the hero if played correctly it'll end up people running at the hero 1 by 1. Meepo is kinda the same and much easier you'll just rip through teamfights if you keep dying or your team does you just farm your way into 1 teamfight or wait till they run 1 by 1 unto you that's pretty normal pub phenomenon ( pretty funny to see your teammates see you as a god for meepo-ing them even though the way you won is kinda like more luck and less to do how good you are lol ). | ||
|
hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
It's like saying they should nerf AA because he's so specialized in being the only hero to prevent healing. Except that is the entire concept of the hero. | ||
|
Archeon
3253 Posts
On November 23 2015 01:59 hariooo wrote: That isn't the point at all. My post was a response to someone who wants to homogenize those heroes. That's a LoL style of balancing and it's not appropriate. It's like saying they should nerf AA because he's so specialized in being the only hero to prevent healing. Except that is the entire concept of the hero. I didnt say that i want to homogenize the heroes. I said that I want their strengths and weaknesses to be a littlebit less extreme. I'm not against heroes having concepts or being good in special situations, or against outdrafts, I'm against heroes who have very few counters and change the game massively. I don't mind the AA Doom interaction in the slightest (btw I wouldnt say that preventing healing is the main selling factor of AA anyways). I would mind scorched earth being so strong that he runs over your entire team in the duration if you don't disable healing. Because that's precisely the interaction of Huskar with low physical damage below the 25th minute, of Brood with no lane counters and to a lesser extend Meepo with low burst sustain lineups. A lot of the Huskar wins were straight up over the moment Huskar was picked, because the other side had only one or two picks to answer and there are very few heroes who can take him down during his timing. | ||
|
hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
| ||
|
Archeon
3253 Posts
On November 23 2015 02:29 hariooo wrote: That's like saying you don't like when picking a healing lineup into AA is an auto lose. If you don't like drafts losing the game then you're going to have a problem with more than just these few heroes. Nope, not at all. I don't have a problem with a specialized lineups having one hard counter. I'm having a problem with 2/3rds of the standard lineups having a hard counter that as a result gets banned every time and never sees play. If you think differently, in what way is doom silencer qop tusk alch a specialist lineup? Meepo participated in 16 of 20 kills, snatched more than the entire rest of the team together. | ||
| ||
