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On March 25 2013 15:24 Discarder wrote:
The most standard build is urn of shadows. It goes very well with the purpose of killing enemy heroes when your skills have leveled up. Of course, balanar is supposed to do this and you will get the charges.
I disagree with using an armlet of Mordigan. I would go for a vanguard and continue roaming around the map with an ally to do his thing.
There is one small thing that matters very much when playing him. There are some heroes that dish out a powerful spell
that can kill you/slow you down. This usually makes the difference of success in the ganking phase. PLEASE put 1 level of silence at level 4. Unless your opposing lane is kardel/traxex who doesn't do anything but right click.
If the game still somehow goes on with some hard carries, you just have to react with a specific counter item (blademail/halberd). You don't have to be a super carry with buriza and luxury items etc etc.
Magic stick can do wonders if you have the apm. It gives you another round of spells and a reason to tower dive.
Vanguard is just a waste of money. Armlet gives you 475 HP, 8hp regen, tons of damage (more so since you're a STR hero), attack speed and armor. It's pretty much all you want for 2600g. Vanguard gives you same regen, a little bit of dmg block, and less hp. It's pretty much the worst item in the game, especially for a hero as NS, which needs to be super aggressive in night time. You need to kill people quickly, not avoid damage. Armlet gives you stability through huge hp again and armor anyway.
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United States47024 Posts
Both Vanguard and Armlet are situational. Generally the most stable follow-up to your early game stuff is BKB.
The thing about Armlet is that NS doesn't really need damage out of his first item. The sticking power of BKB is actually more influential in a teamfight because at that point you have high enough damage from Void's base damage and Hunter in the Night's attack speed. You just need to actually be able to stay on a target without getting stunned. If the enemy team lacks good disables or the game demands solo-killing/gank ability rather than teamfighting power, Armlet can be better, but most players figure out very quickly to play 5-man DotA during the 2nd night time rather than running around solo so typically you want the BKB.
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On March 25 2013 23:59 TheYango wrote:
Both Vanguard and Armlet are situational. Generally the most stable follow-up to your early game stuff is BKB.
The thing about Armlet is that NS doesn't really need damage out of his first item. The sticking power of BKB is actually more influential in a teamfight because at that point you have high enough damage from Void's base damage and Hunter in the Night's attack speed. You just need to actually be able to stay on a target without getting stunned. If the enemy team lacks good disables or the game demands solo-killing/gank ability rather than teamfighting power, Armlet can be better, but most players figure out very quickly to play 5-man DotA during the 2nd night time rather than running around solo so typically you want the BKB.
Well unless you're trying to gank 3 or more heroes at once, damage as your first item is a good choice. BKB is important, and what I go for after the Armlet. However, even on a team with tons of disables, as long as you know how to gank properly, disables won't be an issue. You already have a silence with a huge duration at night, and as long as you communicate well with your team and pick your targets, you can dominate easily.
Of course if they stay together and go for 5-man Dota, BKB is gonna be more important. However I assume most of us here aren't playing for top level teams.
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United States47024 Posts
You're not going to have either item by the first night, and by the second night (~20 mins), most teams at all levels of play are going to be 5-manning and pushing/teamfighting in some capacity.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Vlads is a rather underated item on NS(although it is arugably more suited for non-pub play)
What it does:
For cost it gives good regen, armor(and thus, survivability), lifesteal(which is enough to tank through some support shots even at such a low level combined with the armor you have).
It allows you to push towers better(aura) and allow you to farm the (enemy) jungle in between ganks, as such when no gank opperuntities present itself you can still farm the jungle and be off the map(which means the enemy team has to be wary of you). Aside from this it obviously also gives the aura to your carry which is always nice.
It is also only 2k gold or so, this means that it won't delay your BKB by a significant amount, which is one of the significant things actually. You want to get a BKB but you don't want to get it too early(because youl end up with a 5 seconds to soon) but you won't get it too late because 5man doto requires you to have one. Thus Vlads is a nice ''Pitstop'' item.
Do mind that you should only get it when you have a decent to good start, if you get behind, you have to get the BKB first.
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On March 26 2013 02:46 Kipsate wrote:
Vlads is a rather underated item on NS(although it is arugably more suited for non-pub play)
What it does:
For cost it gives good regen, armor(and thus, survivability), lifesteal(which is enough to tank through some support shots even at such a low level combined with the armor you have).
It allows you to push towers better(aura) and allow you to farm the (enemy) jungle in between ganks, as such when no gank opperuntities present itself you can still farm the jungle and be off the map(which means the enemy team has to be wary of you). Aside from this it obviously also gives the aura to your carry which is always nice.
It is also only 2k gold or so, this means that it won't delay your BKB by a significant amount, which is one of the significant things actually. You want to get a BKB but you don't want to get it too early(because youl end up with a 5 seconds to soon) but you won't get it too late because 5man doto requires you to have one. Thus Vlads is a nice ''Pitstop'' item.
Do mind that you should only get it when you have a decent to good start, if you get behind, you have to get the BKB first.
To be honest Vlads is such an underrated item, it is so great for all it gives, i can recall multiple early teamfight that vlads gave us a significant edge.
Especially since now the metagame is so 5 man oriented, i believe it has a place in any team composition, ive started going early vlads on bh alot now
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Hmm.. It depends on match. But general rules are always same.
-You are not a carry hero.
-Your first 2 nights are extremely important!!! You have to do damage. Otherwise you are on backfoot.
-Use your ulti if you think you can guarantee to kill an enemy between first and second nights.
-Did I mention your first 2 nights are the key?
I really don't like rushing for bkb at NS. Its meaningless. Yes you can even dive into tower and get rid of all disable thx to BKB. But as you know tower diving and going for kill requires at least 1 more teammate. Think about a enemy defensive trilane. Generally there is a hard carry and 2 support heroes. You have 1 slow and 1 silence. Your teammates also can help you to get in range of them.
You are a hardcore ganker. My general build is classic tango+3gg branch to rush for bottle. After bottle and boots i look for Stick, Urn, Armlet and medallion.(Generally in this order) All of these items are very cheap and extremely powerful at beginning of the game. Urn gives some str, and mana+health regen active; Medallion gives mana regen and some str too(with a very cheap version of deso); Stick gives some stats too, Armlet gives... Armlet gives you almost everything. Damage, AS, armor, extra life.. Everything except magic immunity. Its components are really cheap and gives a huge impact at second night. You don't need huge damage items and magic immunity. You need life and armor to charge your opponents.
After 2nd night. Everything depends. Just build something. I really don't care about it. You have slow, silence and some right click damage. Just play the game. But as i said before, You must do heavy damage at first 2 nights!!!
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i have played both ns in 1 position and 2. if mid 3x branch + tango into bottle into treads, should have plenty time to finish those items by the first night. if 1 position just skip the bottle. in both cases you should be around lvl 6-7 and have treads when the first night hits. then just run around the map and get kills (with teammates perferably, since if u dive alone and ppl tp in you're dead) nothing worse than dying with ns at night
rush bkb if your opponents are disable heavy. get an armlet if you are ahead. if they have something like a huskar/any range clicker, get a halberd, that item is op.
use your ults to extend the night. you should have the game won before the 3rd day. if not the enjoy the longest day of your life.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 26 2013 22:09 Aceace wrote:
I really don't like rushing for bkb at NS. Its meaningless. Yes you can even dive into tower and get rid of all disable thx to BKB. But as you know tower diving and going for kill requires at least 1 more teammate. Think about a enemy defensive trilane. Generally there is a hard carry and 2 support heroes. You have 1 slow and 1 silence. Your teammates also can help you to get in range of them.
You're thinking in terms of the enemy defensive trilane during the second night (you won't finish BKB during the first night anyway)? The second night starts around 20 mins and its rare that laning is preserved that long. The predominant action during the second night is going to be 5-man (pushing and teamfighting) which is why BKB is desirable.
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On March 27 2013 02:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:09 Aceace wrote:
I really don't like rushing for bkb at NS. Its meaningless. Yes you can even dive into tower and get rid of all disable thx to BKB. But as you know tower diving and going for kill requires at least 1 more teammate. Think about a enemy defensive trilane. Generally there is a hard carry and 2 support heroes. You have 1 slow and 1 silence. Your teammates also can help you to get in range of them.
You're thinking in terms of the enemy defensive trilane during the second night (you won't finish BKB during the first night anyway)? The second night starts around 20 mins and its rare that laning is preserved that long. The predominant action during the second night is going to be 5-man (pushing and teamfighting) which is why BKB is desirable.
Pretty much. Also, they are going to gank you at the daytime, and you will need that BKB for survival.
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Try Phaseboots, armlet, basher, and aghanims scepter
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I find this interesting because I find Bala to be one of the easiest heroes and also my strongest hero. I basically don't even bother getting higher than ~70cs and just roam the whole game because its fun.
http://dotabuff.com/players/39902410/matches?hero=night-stalker&game_mode=&match_type=real
Basically Armlet/Heart/BKB depending on the situation. I also find treads to be much better than phase, you can cycle to int when you need to eek out a void but you also have the constant bonus str to dive towers like crazy.
Also once you get level 2 void you need to be extremely aggressive, I've beaten batrider mid in CM just by being uber-aggressive with lots of +str and regen, harassing with void and then picking the right time to walk through fire and go all-in and escape with a sliver of hp. At level 1 void you want to be playing the opposite though, conserve as much mana and regen as possible till level 2 void, basically the savings allow you to hit like a freight train once you get level 3 (level 2 void), level 1 void is too weak to get kills reliably.
Basically I get 2 levels of void, then max Hunter and don't bother with silence unless they have many stuns and level my ult after the first night time finishes. Silence is not necessary because you aren't going to be teamfighting in the first night time, basically just go for the squishies who don't have reliable stuns, otherwise I just get level 1 silence when I think its necessary. After void/hunter is maxed I get 1 level of silence, and max stats with 3-1-3-3 and max silence last.
Maxing Hunter first allows me to get a lot more kills in the first night time than maxing void, often I will run out of mana after the first gank, and the extra mobility allows me to search and destroy more squishies in the short time frame that I have.
I also save my ult for counter initiation, it has often allowed me to net a ton of kills when the other team runs in. Basically teams will try to 5 man dota in daytime when there is a nightstalker on the other team, so I always save my ult and proceed to kill everyone instead of being stuck having to team fight during daytime.
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I have a lot of success using this guide
basic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn.
follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well.
Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day.
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On May 22 2013 14:03 hacklebeast wrote:I have a lot of success using this guidebasic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn. follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well. Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day.
Dotafire makes me facepalm so hard sometimes.
Quelling blade is unnecessary unless your last hitting is terrible, its much better to get an extra glove for a faster urn and more branches or regen. Even so, you can just bottle crow last hits with void if you are that bad. You are also going to receive a lot of harass in mid, having more hp to eat damage while you last hit is a lot more important.
Aghs is a waste of money to get early, its not enough to be able to see them, you also need to kill them, as if finding lone heroes is that difficult. The only thing Euls provides is movespeed and the last thing you need is more movespeed, HoD will nullify the strong early game you desperately need, and early basher is very very situational because it limits your options. Having more tank-ability is most important early game, because you will be diving towers and eating spells to the face non-stop, you are almost always going to get the kill as long as you don't die before you finish them so basher seems useless in this regard.
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On May 22 2013 14:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 14:03 hacklebeast wrote:I have a lot of success using this guidebasic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn. follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well. Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day. Dotafire makes me facepalm so hard sometimes. Quelling blade is unnecessary unless your last hitting is terrible, its much better to get an extra glove for a faster urn and more branches or regen. Even so, you can just bottle crow last hits with void if you are that bad. You are also going to receive a lot of harass in mid, having more hp to eat damage while you last hit is a lot more important. Aghs is a waste of money to get early, its not enough to be able to see them, you also need to kill them, as if finding lone heroes is that difficult. The only thing Euls provides is movespeed and the last thing you need is more movespeed, HoD will nullify the strong early game you desperately need, and early basher is very very situational because it limits your options. Having more tank-ability is most important early game, because you will be diving towers and eating spells to the face non-stop, you are almost always going to get the kill as long as you don't die before you finish them so basher seems useless in this regard.
While I don't necessarily agree with that guide (like, at all, from what I gather) I kind of do take issue with the stance 'aghs is a waste of money to get early'. Combined with a gem at the same time, it's a free moving maphack, and if you get it quickly enough that you still have some decent levels on the other heroes in the game and that level advantage is still significant (think level 11-12, other heroes are level 8-9 if you've been doing well), your advantage in map control can pay off in massively easier ganks, not to mention the ability to judge a situation WAY better due to being able to see all reinforcements well before they arrive.
If you get aghs fast enough that you have it + gem around the start of the second night (as well as some small things like urn, upgraded boots obviously, whatever you feel really) it can be one of the best first item choices on NS.
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well, i can see that you have never gotten aghs, so I would recommend trying it. It's a pretty cool item.
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Another thing that I think a lot of people forget on gank-orientated mid heroes is smoke of deceit. It's all well and good to bottle a dd rune and run up for a gank but a competent support will have you telegraphed a mile away and you'll just end up wasting a lot of time.
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You would want a Medallion on balanar and if possible make it in the first night after your urn asap. Medallion is highly underrated item with cheap price and it works wonders on balanar believe me.
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On May 22 2013 14:03 hacklebeast wrote:I have a lot of success using this guidebasic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn. follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well. Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day.
That guide has a lot of flaws. Quelling blade is unnecessary, Stout Shield is one of the best items for melee heroes at the start of the game. Balanar also have very good starting damage, you really don't need Quelling Blade except against Nature's Prophet or something like that.
Next up, you need at least one point of Fear in first 5 levels for your ganking to be effective. You also don't need Darkness at level 6. Up to level 6, skill build should be 3-1-2.
Aghanim is good item, but almost every item on NS is situational.
On May 22 2013 17:50 Aelfric wrote:
You would want a Medallion on balanar and if possible make it in the first night after your urn asap. Medallion is highly underrated item with cheap price and it works wonders on balanar believe me.
It is underrated, but Medallion is ~1100 less gold in your pocket, which means you need a lot more for Armlet/BKB/Whatever you are making. You will gank together with your teammates most of the time anyway, you don't really need Medallion, and when you get Armlet, you will have a lot higher survivability and you will hit like a truck. It is a lot better option for your supports to get the Medallion if they don't need any other items asap.
Getting smaller items(Drums, Urn, Medallion etc.) is a good way to snowball out of control, because you will probably be in advantage with those items than saving for major item, problem is, if you are getting a lot of small items, you are not really boosting your utility while you are delaying your major items by a lot.
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From what I've seen in pro games lately early game core on night stalker is bottle urn treads and a wand. I don't always see before the BKB pick up, I guess it would be situational upon how hard you snow ball. Late game core seems to be abyssal blade a lot of the time, or even a halberd.
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EPT
