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Hey guys!
I'm currently having trouble with my Night Stalker...
I just want to say I'm still a noob, but I really want to learn more...
I also understand that Night Stalker is a really good hero, though I can't seem to win with him...
My record with Night Stalker in pubs is 2 wins and 8 losses, so I began to worry.
Starting items are 2 gaunts, 2 branches, tango and salve.
Basically I know how to last hit and lane. By night time I can get my boots of speed and urn of shadows finished.
I can kill at the very least 4 heroes by the end of the first night, though I seem kinda lost on what to do next.
Item Build:
Starting: Mentioned above.
Staple: Phase boots, dominator, urn of shadows, battle fury, bkb, skull basher
Luxuries: Divine(friend says so. never dropped it once when using NS), AC, AB, Daedalus, Dagon, Aghanim's
What am I doing wrong? Please help...
PS: Basically I want to carry the team though they're doing poorly. Tips and tricks on where to go/what to do at night/day, who to kill, item suggestions are greatly appreciated.
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
dominator and battle fury are not good items on night stalker because he's more of a lockdown hero in teamfights instead of a huge rightclicking hero like antimage or void. balanar isn't a farming-oriented hero like antimage, lone druid or pl either. instead, what you would want are tanking items (BKB, heart, armlet) and/or some utility items (aghanims, casual cloak, sange -> heaven's halberd etc). in teamfights, what you want to do is to lockdown carries (with silence or void slow) or pick off supports quickly or providing the initiation for teamfight by turning on ult, using bkb and charging in, making space for your other heroes (magnus, panda etc) to follow up.
a bottle is more or less a must on night stalker as he does suffer a bit from lack of mana pool/regen. treads is also a better item for this same reason (switching from str treads to int treads when needed).
after the first night, you should be trying to create pressure along lanes, especially on supports. don't be afraid to use ur ult if you can get a pickoff, even on a support. depending on what your team needs (more tank if there isn't one who can charge in, such as heart or bkb, or aghanims if you are playing push-style and you want map control).
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Go mid with 1 tango 3 branches. Buy bottle asap
Go treads + bottle + magic wand + urn
Get BKB and then there are a lot of viable options. Like skull basher / armlet / heart / heavens halbeard / agh scepter etc All depending on what you face
First and Second night are 2 very important moments for you. Especially first night (in pubs). That's when you have quite high moevement speed and supports barely even have boots at this point. Try to get as much kills as possible during this phase.
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Thanks for the inputs guys! Really appreciate it! Especially the Heaven's halberd part...never thought of that item before...
Just a few things...
First, NS really doesn't need lifesteal? All inputs don't mention lifesteal.
Second, how do you deal with jukes as NS?
Third, what is usually done when it's daytime as NS? Kinda lost in this part...
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You don't need Lifesteal with Urn and Bottle, if you need Lifesteal in fights, that won't do much since you don't have high damage for Lifesteal to matters. Lifesteal can be good if you go to the late game, so you already have full inventory, but on NS I would still go with the Heart.
You can gank even when it is daytime, it is just harder. You usually sit on the lane, and farm when it is daytime. Also, if you have trouble on the lane, don't hesitate to use first spell for very needed last hit, since it has very low mana cost, and you need that early bottle.
About leveling up, you should have 2-1-2 at level 5, or 3-1-1, but at level 6 you shouldn't level up ulti, since night will come around that time, and you can level it up next level.
What do you mean by Jukes? I mean, it is not different than with every other hero at day, and at night, you are faster than them + you have Silence and Slow.
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On March 24 2013 21:13 Checkm8 wrote:
Thanks for the inputs guys! Really appreciate it! Especially the Heaven's halberd part...never thought of that item before...
Just a few things...
First, NS really doesn't need lifesteal? All inputs don't mention lifesteal.
Second, how do you deal with jukes as NS?
Third, what is usually done when it's daytime as NS? Kinda lost in this part...
I farm during the day, unless my team really needs me or if i can see a support on his way to ward
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Jukes , you mean after you start with Void, supporter tend to teleport?
If that so , u can start auto attacking + silence on supporter so that he cant jukes tele you (mindgames) 
for jukes spot. its all about experience and play more as NS or any ganking train hero
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Aghanim's scepter is so amazingly good on NS if game heads toward the later stages of the game. Vision is key.
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On March 24 2013 23:06 Unleashing wrote:
Aghanim's scepter is so amazingly good on NS if game heads toward the later stages of the game. Vision is key.
True, you see 1/4 of the map lol(not really but you still see a lot). :D
But to be honest, if they don't have high damage spells or too many disables, you can rush straight for the Aghanim, using only Urn and Treads for HP.
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After the first night cycle, you have to decide what your team needs. NS is more of a utility hero after the first 2 nights of ganking cause he loses effectiveness. There are usually 2 main build, tanking/initiation or map control.
Tanking/initiation build you want to go for cheap cost effective items since NS is naturally quite beefy to start with. Armlet + bkb is generally a good choice as you want to rush in and tank the damage for your team. Most players will panic when they see a NS rushing towards them. Use the chaos that you cause to catch heroes out of position and pick them off.
Map control builds always include a scepter and gem. It gives great vision and you will never be caught out at NIGHT. You can deward and basically blind the opponents map vision. Smokes dont work against Agh+gem NS because You see them before they can get close.
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You don't need the Battle Fury and the Helm as a Nightstalker. Some people actually go Armlet on the hero, it's a great item to have as a Nightstalker and then maybe go for a Vlad's and then BKB. That's usually how I build my Nightstalker as I don't like rushing a BKB. After that, go for an AC if nobody has it on your team yet and then maybe go for your Basher.
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my personal build with ns is like, 2x gauntlet tango and ironwoods into treads urn and armlet. from there it depends on the other teams comp if i get bkb or basher etc. if you want to grab lifesteal youd want to do that fairly mid to late game since you shouldnt be getting in long drawn out fights with him anyway. armlet is the key for ns, it is sooo jacked. urn very helpful for your night time ganks since youll get a lot of hp and some mana regen which lets you stay out longer. you can only really "carry" your team if you are very successful early game and the other team has a squishy hero on the other team you can abuse. otherwise youll be delegated to silencing/slowing in teamfights and going for pickoffs when you can.
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United States47024 Posts
Either start with Stout Shield or with 3 Branch->Bottle Rush. Double gauntlet is inferior to either of those starts, as Stout provides superior low-level survivability due to damage block's high value at low levels. You shouldn't need the +6 damage to lasthit as Night Stalker's base damage is already fairly high.
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I go for Tango+4 Branches for rushing Bottle. I get a fast Bottle and then Phase Boots. After that, I go for Armlet, BKB, and then Basher. If I need aoe, for example against PL, I get BF after BKB.
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The most standard build is urn of shadows. It goes very well with the purpose of killing enemy heroes when your skills have leveled up. Of course, balanar is supposed to do this and you will get the charges.
I disagree with using an armlet of Mordigan. I would go for a vanguard and continue roaming around the map with an ally to do his thing.
There is one small thing that matters very much when playing him. There are some heroes that dish out a powerful spell
that can kill you/slow you down. This usually makes the difference of success in the ganking phase. PLEASE put 1 level of silence at level 4. Unless your opposing lane is kardel/traxex who doesn't do anything but right click.
If the game still somehow goes on with some hard carries, you just have to react with a specific counter item (blademail/halberd). You don't have to be a super carry with buriza and luxury items etc etc.
Magic stick can do wonders if you have the apm. It gives you another round of spells and a reason to tower dive.
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NS is one of my favorite (and best) heroes.
I like an armlet rush on him; generally I go stout + 3 branch + tango to start, but if I'm against a weaker lane opponent and am feeling greedy I'll go 3 branch + tango to bottle rush. Generally the stout pays for itself though, because you take a ton of harassment against ranged lane opponents like QoP.
Urn is usually my first item after bottle, followed generally by armlet. Sometimes if I have enough gold and we need the vision I will rush aghs instead, but aghs costs a lot more and doesn't give you as much in terms in stats/cost in comparison to armlet.
After armlet or aghs I'll usually go one of AC/BKB/Heart. AC is great for pushing and 5 manning, BKB is good for teams with a lot of stuns and magical damage, and heart is just an all-around good item.
Your itemization really just depends on the game and your opponents/needs. Sometimes you might want to get a BKB right away, because there are too many stuns or nukes on the opposing team. Sometimes another player has bought urn, and you might even consider getting medallion or just rushing your first item. Sometimes your team needs you to build vlads. It's all situational and usually it's best to think about what the team needs and what you need to be a good ganker, since that's what NS does best.
I usually itemize treads over phase. I used to get phase, but realized that the active wasn't really that great, particularly after watching ferrari play NS. I also found that it's much better to skip ult until the first night is over, since during the first night you will benefit more from more points in hunter in the night rather than a night extended by 25s. Sometimes Ferrari will even skip the point in silence until level 9; if you don't need it, it's not really worth it over a point in hunter.
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lots of good advice here. i would just like to add that during day time you want to be using your ult as much as possible (the more you use your ult the higher % of the game is played during night). i'm not saying to just blindly use it every cooldown but you should be planning out what you're going to do after first night is over so that you can make the most of your ultimate. you can group up to push a tower or tp gank if you see the opportunity.
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On March 25 2013 18:20 meijin wrote:
lots of good advice here. i would just like to add that during day time you want to be using your ult as much as possible (the more you use your ult the higher % of the game is played during night). i'm not saying to just blindly use it every cooldown but you should be planning out what you're going to do after first night is over so that you can make the most of your ultimate. you can group up to push a tower or tp gank if you see the opportunity.
I assume it's a typo and you meant that you should use your ult during NIGHTIME not daytime. Using your ult during daytime will delay the next night, so don't do it unless to secure a kill.
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Yes you essentially want second night to come as soon as possible so you try not to ult during the daytime unless absolutely necessary.
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On March 25 2013 18:20 meijin wrote:
lots of good advice here. i would just like to add that during day time you want to be using your ult as much as possible (the more you use your ult the higher % of the game is played during night). i'm not saying to just blindly use it every cooldown but you should be planning out what you're going to do after first night is over so that you can make the most of your ultimate. you can group up to push a tower or tp gank if you see the opportunity.
Nah you do NOT use your ult in daytime, you spam it during Night time. NS ult freezes time, thus it should only be used at night if possible to extend the night as long as possible.
Of course feel free to ult during the day to run away/join fights.
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On March 25 2013 15:24 Discarder wrote:
The most standard build is urn of shadows. It goes very well with the purpose of killing enemy heroes when your skills have leveled up. Of course, balanar is supposed to do this and you will get the charges.
I disagree with using an armlet of Mordigan. I would go for a vanguard and continue roaming around the map with an ally to do his thing.
There is one small thing that matters very much when playing him. There are some heroes that dish out a powerful spell
that can kill you/slow you down. This usually makes the difference of success in the ganking phase. PLEASE put 1 level of silence at level 4. Unless your opposing lane is kardel/traxex who doesn't do anything but right click.
If the game still somehow goes on with some hard carries, you just have to react with a specific counter item (blademail/halberd). You don't have to be a super carry with buriza and luxury items etc etc.
Magic stick can do wonders if you have the apm. It gives you another round of spells and a reason to tower dive.
Vanguard is just a waste of money. Armlet gives you 475 HP, 8hp regen, tons of damage (more so since you're a STR hero), attack speed and armor. It's pretty much all you want for 2600g. Vanguard gives you same regen, a little bit of dmg block, and less hp. It's pretty much the worst item in the game, especially for a hero as NS, which needs to be super aggressive in night time. You need to kill people quickly, not avoid damage. Armlet gives you stability through huge hp again and armor anyway.
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United States47024 Posts
Both Vanguard and Armlet are situational. Generally the most stable follow-up to your early game stuff is BKB.
The thing about Armlet is that NS doesn't really need damage out of his first item. The sticking power of BKB is actually more influential in a teamfight because at that point you have high enough damage from Void's base damage and Hunter in the Night's attack speed. You just need to actually be able to stay on a target without getting stunned. If the enemy team lacks good disables or the game demands solo-killing/gank ability rather than teamfighting power, Armlet can be better, but most players figure out very quickly to play 5-man DotA during the 2nd night time rather than running around solo so typically you want the BKB.
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On March 25 2013 23:59 TheYango wrote:
Both Vanguard and Armlet are situational. Generally the most stable follow-up to your early game stuff is BKB.
The thing about Armlet is that NS doesn't really need damage out of his first item. The sticking power of BKB is actually more influential in a teamfight because at that point you have high enough damage from Void's base damage and Hunter in the Night's attack speed. You just need to actually be able to stay on a target without getting stunned. If the enemy team lacks good disables or the game demands solo-killing/gank ability rather than teamfighting power, Armlet can be better, but most players figure out very quickly to play 5-man DotA during the 2nd night time rather than running around solo so typically you want the BKB.
Well unless you're trying to gank 3 or more heroes at once, damage as your first item is a good choice. BKB is important, and what I go for after the Armlet. However, even on a team with tons of disables, as long as you know how to gank properly, disables won't be an issue. You already have a silence with a huge duration at night, and as long as you communicate well with your team and pick your targets, you can dominate easily.
Of course if they stay together and go for 5-man Dota, BKB is gonna be more important. However I assume most of us here aren't playing for top level teams.
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United States47024 Posts
You're not going to have either item by the first night, and by the second night (~20 mins), most teams at all levels of play are going to be 5-manning and pushing/teamfighting in some capacity.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Vlads is a rather underated item on NS(although it is arugably more suited for non-pub play)
What it does:
For cost it gives good regen, armor(and thus, survivability), lifesteal(which is enough to tank through some support shots even at such a low level combined with the armor you have).
It allows you to push towers better(aura) and allow you to farm the (enemy) jungle in between ganks, as such when no gank opperuntities present itself you can still farm the jungle and be off the map(which means the enemy team has to be wary of you). Aside from this it obviously also gives the aura to your carry which is always nice.
It is also only 2k gold or so, this means that it won't delay your BKB by a significant amount, which is one of the significant things actually. You want to get a BKB but you don't want to get it too early(because youl end up with a 5 seconds to soon) but you won't get it too late because 5man doto requires you to have one. Thus Vlads is a nice ''Pitstop'' item.
Do mind that you should only get it when you have a decent to good start, if you get behind, you have to get the BKB first.
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On March 26 2013 02:46 Kipsate wrote:
Vlads is a rather underated item on NS(although it is arugably more suited for non-pub play)
What it does:
For cost it gives good regen, armor(and thus, survivability), lifesteal(which is enough to tank through some support shots even at such a low level combined with the armor you have).
It allows you to push towers better(aura) and allow you to farm the (enemy) jungle in between ganks, as such when no gank opperuntities present itself you can still farm the jungle and be off the map(which means the enemy team has to be wary of you). Aside from this it obviously also gives the aura to your carry which is always nice.
It is also only 2k gold or so, this means that it won't delay your BKB by a significant amount, which is one of the significant things actually. You want to get a BKB but you don't want to get it too early(because youl end up with a 5 seconds to soon) but you won't get it too late because 5man doto requires you to have one. Thus Vlads is a nice ''Pitstop'' item.
Do mind that you should only get it when you have a decent to good start, if you get behind, you have to get the BKB first.
To be honest Vlads is such an underrated item, it is so great for all it gives, i can recall multiple early teamfight that vlads gave us a significant edge.
Especially since now the metagame is so 5 man oriented, i believe it has a place in any team composition, ive started going early vlads on bh alot now
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Hmm.. It depends on match. But general rules are always same.
-You are not a carry hero.
-Your first 2 nights are extremely important!!! You have to do damage. Otherwise you are on backfoot.
-Use your ulti if you think you can guarantee to kill an enemy between first and second nights.
-Did I mention your first 2 nights are the key?
I really don't like rushing for bkb at NS. Its meaningless. Yes you can even dive into tower and get rid of all disable thx to BKB. But as you know tower diving and going for kill requires at least 1 more teammate. Think about a enemy defensive trilane. Generally there is a hard carry and 2 support heroes. You have 1 slow and 1 silence. Your teammates also can help you to get in range of them.
You are a hardcore ganker. My general build is classic tango+3gg branch to rush for bottle. After bottle and boots i look for Stick, Urn, Armlet and medallion.(Generally in this order) All of these items are very cheap and extremely powerful at beginning of the game. Urn gives some str, and mana+health regen active; Medallion gives mana regen and some str too(with a very cheap version of deso); Stick gives some stats too, Armlet gives... Armlet gives you almost everything. Damage, AS, armor, extra life.. Everything except magic immunity. Its components are really cheap and gives a huge impact at second night. You don't need huge damage items and magic immunity. You need life and armor to charge your opponents.
After 2nd night. Everything depends. Just build something. I really don't care about it. You have slow, silence and some right click damage. Just play the game. But as i said before, You must do heavy damage at first 2 nights!!!
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i have played both ns in 1 position and 2. if mid 3x branch + tango into bottle into treads, should have plenty time to finish those items by the first night. if 1 position just skip the bottle. in both cases you should be around lvl 6-7 and have treads when the first night hits. then just run around the map and get kills (with teammates perferably, since if u dive alone and ppl tp in you're dead) nothing worse than dying with ns at night
rush bkb if your opponents are disable heavy. get an armlet if you are ahead. if they have something like a huskar/any range clicker, get a halberd, that item is op.
use your ults to extend the night. you should have the game won before the 3rd day. if not the enjoy the longest day of your life.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 26 2013 22:09 Aceace wrote:
I really don't like rushing for bkb at NS. Its meaningless. Yes you can even dive into tower and get rid of all disable thx to BKB. But as you know tower diving and going for kill requires at least 1 more teammate. Think about a enemy defensive trilane. Generally there is a hard carry and 2 support heroes. You have 1 slow and 1 silence. Your teammates also can help you to get in range of them.
You're thinking in terms of the enemy defensive trilane during the second night (you won't finish BKB during the first night anyway)? The second night starts around 20 mins and its rare that laning is preserved that long. The predominant action during the second night is going to be 5-man (pushing and teamfighting) which is why BKB is desirable.
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On March 27 2013 02:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:09 Aceace wrote:
I really don't like rushing for bkb at NS. Its meaningless. Yes you can even dive into tower and get rid of all disable thx to BKB. But as you know tower diving and going for kill requires at least 1 more teammate. Think about a enemy defensive trilane. Generally there is a hard carry and 2 support heroes. You have 1 slow and 1 silence. Your teammates also can help you to get in range of them.
You're thinking in terms of the enemy defensive trilane during the second night (you won't finish BKB during the first night anyway)? The second night starts around 20 mins and its rare that laning is preserved that long. The predominant action during the second night is going to be 5-man (pushing and teamfighting) which is why BKB is desirable.
Pretty much. Also, they are going to gank you at the daytime, and you will need that BKB for survival.
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Try Phaseboots, armlet, basher, and aghanims scepter
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I find this interesting because I find Bala to be one of the easiest heroes and also my strongest hero. I basically don't even bother getting higher than ~70cs and just roam the whole game because its fun.
http://dotabuff.com/players/39902410/matches?hero=night-stalker&game_mode=&match_type=real
Basically Armlet/Heart/BKB depending on the situation. I also find treads to be much better than phase, you can cycle to int when you need to eek out a void but you also have the constant bonus str to dive towers like crazy.
Also once you get level 2 void you need to be extremely aggressive, I've beaten batrider mid in CM just by being uber-aggressive with lots of +str and regen, harassing with void and then picking the right time to walk through fire and go all-in and escape with a sliver of hp. At level 1 void you want to be playing the opposite though, conserve as much mana and regen as possible till level 2 void, basically the savings allow you to hit like a freight train once you get level 3 (level 2 void), level 1 void is too weak to get kills reliably.
Basically I get 2 levels of void, then max Hunter and don't bother with silence unless they have many stuns and level my ult after the first night time finishes. Silence is not necessary because you aren't going to be teamfighting in the first night time, basically just go for the squishies who don't have reliable stuns, otherwise I just get level 1 silence when I think its necessary. After void/hunter is maxed I get 1 level of silence, and max stats with 3-1-3-3 and max silence last.
Maxing Hunter first allows me to get a lot more kills in the first night time than maxing void, often I will run out of mana after the first gank, and the extra mobility allows me to search and destroy more squishies in the short time frame that I have.
I also save my ult for counter initiation, it has often allowed me to net a ton of kills when the other team runs in. Basically teams will try to 5 man dota in daytime when there is a nightstalker on the other team, so I always save my ult and proceed to kill everyone instead of being stuck having to team fight during daytime.
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I have a lot of success using this guide
basic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn.
follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well.
Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day.
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On May 22 2013 14:03 hacklebeast wrote:I have a lot of success using this guidebasic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn. follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well. Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day.
Dotafire makes me facepalm so hard sometimes.
Quelling blade is unnecessary unless your last hitting is terrible, its much better to get an extra glove for a faster urn and more branches or regen. Even so, you can just bottle crow last hits with void if you are that bad. You are also going to receive a lot of harass in mid, having more hp to eat damage while you last hit is a lot more important.
Aghs is a waste of money to get early, its not enough to be able to see them, you also need to kill them, as if finding lone heroes is that difficult. The only thing Euls provides is movespeed and the last thing you need is more movespeed, HoD will nullify the strong early game you desperately need, and early basher is very very situational because it limits your options. Having more tank-ability is most important early game, because you will be diving towers and eating spells to the face non-stop, you are almost always going to get the kill as long as you don't die before you finish them so basher seems useless in this regard.
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On May 22 2013 14:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 14:03 hacklebeast wrote:I have a lot of success using this guidebasic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn. follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well. Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day. Dotafire makes me facepalm so hard sometimes. Quelling blade is unnecessary unless your last hitting is terrible, its much better to get an extra glove for a faster urn and more branches or regen. Even so, you can just bottle crow last hits with void if you are that bad. You are also going to receive a lot of harass in mid, having more hp to eat damage while you last hit is a lot more important. Aghs is a waste of money to get early, its not enough to be able to see them, you also need to kill them, as if finding lone heroes is that difficult. The only thing Euls provides is movespeed and the last thing you need is more movespeed, HoD will nullify the strong early game you desperately need, and early basher is very very situational because it limits your options. Having more tank-ability is most important early game, because you will be diving towers and eating spells to the face non-stop, you are almost always going to get the kill as long as you don't die before you finish them so basher seems useless in this regard.
While I don't necessarily agree with that guide (like, at all, from what I gather) I kind of do take issue with the stance 'aghs is a waste of money to get early'. Combined with a gem at the same time, it's a free moving maphack, and if you get it quickly enough that you still have some decent levels on the other heroes in the game and that level advantage is still significant (think level 11-12, other heroes are level 8-9 if you've been doing well), your advantage in map control can pay off in massively easier ganks, not to mention the ability to judge a situation WAY better due to being able to see all reinforcements well before they arrive.
If you get aghs fast enough that you have it + gem around the start of the second night (as well as some small things like urn, upgraded boots obviously, whatever you feel really) it can be one of the best first item choices on NS.
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well, i can see that you have never gotten aghs, so I would recommend trying it. It's a pretty cool item.
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Another thing that I think a lot of people forget on gank-orientated mid heroes is smoke of deceit. It's all well and good to bottle a dd rune and run up for a gank but a competent support will have you telegraphed a mile away and you'll just end up wasting a lot of time.
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You would want a Medallion on balanar and if possible make it in the first night after your urn asap. Medallion is highly underrated item with cheap price and it works wonders on balanar believe me.
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On May 22 2013 14:03 hacklebeast wrote:I have a lot of success using this guidebasic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn. follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well. Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day.
That guide has a lot of flaws. Quelling blade is unnecessary, Stout Shield is one of the best items for melee heroes at the start of the game. Balanar also have very good starting damage, you really don't need Quelling Blade except against Nature's Prophet or something like that.
Next up, you need at least one point of Fear in first 5 levels for your ganking to be effective. You also don't need Darkness at level 6. Up to level 6, skill build should be 3-1-2.
Aghanim is good item, but almost every item on NS is situational.
On May 22 2013 17:50 Aelfric wrote:
You would want a Medallion on balanar and if possible make it in the first night after your urn asap. Medallion is highly underrated item with cheap price and it works wonders on balanar believe me.
It is underrated, but Medallion is ~1100 less gold in your pocket, which means you need a lot more for Armlet/BKB/Whatever you are making. You will gank together with your teammates most of the time anyway, you don't really need Medallion, and when you get Armlet, you will have a lot higher survivability and you will hit like a truck. It is a lot better option for your supports to get the Medallion if they don't need any other items asap.
Getting smaller items(Drums, Urn, Medallion etc.) is a good way to snowball out of control, because you will probably be in advantage with those items than saving for major item, problem is, if you are getting a lot of small items, you are not really boosting your utility while you are delaying your major items by a lot.
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From what I've seen in pro games lately early game core on night stalker is bottle urn treads and a wand. I don't always see before the BKB pick up, I guess it would be situational upon how hard you snow ball. Late game core seems to be abyssal blade a lot of the time, or even a halberd.
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Thanks a bunch for the great help guys!
So far, as what I've read in the comments, it seems like I really have to be flexible and determine the needed items according to the situation (example BKB for teams with many disables/nukes, armlet/halberd for more damage oriented teams)
Also gonna drop the Bfury hahah xD
Imma try it out tomorrow ^^
PS: Sorry for the uber late response...was busy the last month...
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The most important thing with NS are the first 2 nights, if you cant kill anybody or at least stop your enemy farm you will have a lot of problems trying to stay strong in the game. If you see the other team has wards buy a smoke of deceit, use it when you want to gank, far from enemy sight, with that you can walk over wards without being spoted (you become invisible when arent enemy heroes nearby).
I like to buy a casual point booster, during the 2nd day. It helps with mana, is cheaper and can be used in a Agha in the lategame, if necessary. Do get your ult level 6, but try to get level 1 and 2 before the second night and use it as soon as the night started.
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United States47024 Posts
The issue with Medallion is not so much it's cost-effectiveness, it's that it's not slot-effective at the time you'd want it.
If you already have Treads Bottle Wand Urn TP, you have 1 slot left. If you buy another small item, you'd have to immediately sell something, and selling something already by the 10-15 minute range isn't all that effective--so you generally want to build something bigger into that 6th item slot.
If you're comparing it to the other 3 items you could replace, it has a hard time beating those. Bottle is more or less a necessity for your early laning and runes enhance your night time ganking a lot. Wand beats pretty much anything for early fighting effectiveness, and Urn is just better than Medallion for the first 1-2 nights--it's cheaper, the active is stronger until later when there is enough physical damage for -armor to outperform the 150 damage nuke, doesn't have the dual utility of being a healing item, and Strength is a better stat than plain Armor until mid-lategame on NS (since he has 5 base armor and high Agi gain for a Strength hero).
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Remember that Balanar isnt a lategame carry, his effectiveness wears off at min 35ish. Try to have an impact before that.
And as stated before, refrain from using your ult in daytime(unless it means kills, and lots of them ) as it prolongs the day, which is a bad thing for NS.
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Just played about 6 games, with 5 games being with NS, and I actually won 5! Thanks for all the help guys!
Armlet works wonders, both for the tankiness and damage output. Still haven't been able to try out halberd though. And I do agree, vlads is a great item on NS, though most of the time the melee carry players buy the vlads themselves, so I don't need to bother buying another one.
Still, I need more experience with jukes...I really hate blind spots...
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^ or buy aghs, no more jukes for enemy lol
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I get the idea of why you wouldn't use ult during the day since without using it during the day the nights come right at his good timings AND you don't run the risk of ult wearing off, but it's not really prolonging the amount of time spent in the day (since the ult is 'night'); it's just prolonging how long until the next natural night, right? Does it have an extra effect for night's duration beyond just pausing time?
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On May 24 2013 03:21 Logo wrote:
I get the idea of why you wouldn't use ult during the day since without using it during the day the nights come right at his good timings AND you don't run the risk of ult wearing off, but it's not really prolonging the amount of time spent in the day (since the ult is 'night'); it's just prolonging how long until the next natural night, right? Does it have an extra effect for night's duration beyond just pausing time?
Yes, the total duration of day time (and night time) doesn't change because you used the ult during the day. It "extends" the day light only in the sense that it takes longer until the next natural night.
Fun fact: at level 16, there's about 40 seconds of natural night per ult cd. That means you'll get about 12 ults off. 12 ults + 6 min natural night = 22 minute night O_O
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Well, you know, if you are having a key fight during daytime, use that ultimate.
But typical NS builds skip his ultimate until 10+11
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United States47024 Posts
On May 24 2013 05:30 Comeh wrote:
Well, you know, if you are having a key fight during daytime, use that ultimate.
But typical NS builds skip his ultimate until 10+11
Its situational. You don't get it at 6, but you also don't wait till you're 4-1-4 either.
Essentially, you only ever plan on getting to ult twice during the first night (since even if you ulted right at 6:00, the 3rd day would start with a lot of time on your ult CD). This means you can get ult sometime later than 6 minutes, but generally not so late as level 10.
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On May 24 2013 05:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 05:30 Comeh wrote:
Well, you know, if you are having a key fight during daytime, use that ultimate.
But typical NS builds skip his ultimate until 10+11 Its situational. You don't get it at 6, but you also don't wait till you're 4-1-4 either. Essentially, you only ever plan on getting to ult twice during the first night (since even if you ulted right at 6:00, the 3rd day would start with a lot of time on your ult CD). This means you can get ult sometime later than 6 minutes, but generally not so late as level 10.
*shrug* I typically will grab it to get the extra 40 seconds on the first night, but a lot of pros (iirc when I've seen IG run it, back when they picked it a lot) seem to at least grab 4-0-4 (sometimes they skipped silence...it was weird.)
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On March 24 2013 20:41 DrPandaPhD wrote:
Go mid with 1 tango 3 branches. Buy bottle asap
Go treads + bottle + magic wand + urn
Get BKB and then there are a lot of viable options. Like skull basher / armlet / heart / heavens halbeard / agh scepter etc All depending on what you face
First and Second night are 2 very important moments for you. Especially first night (in pubs). That's when you have quite high moevement speed and supports barely even have boots at this point. Try to get as much kills as possible during this phase.
Whoa whoa whoa, wait a minute. I like reading your advice on here Panda, but one thing confused me a bit, Treads > Phase for NS mid? I was under the impression that Phase would be better, it just offers so much utility, and great burst speed to slip through creeps to kill, or to slip through creeps to escape. Clarification on this?
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Honestly, I think NS is less about getting the right items and more about being very aggressive and ganking in the first night. I like to start with 3 branches and tango then rush into bottle, magic wand, and phase, but it's up to you what you do after that. Armlet, bkb, urn, halberd and even hotd are viable but I personally prefer BKB. I choose phase over treads because phasing is very helpful when chasing and the extra damage helps when the enemy is running, but treads gives more life and some emergency mana.
As people have said, the first two nights are very important but the first night is probably the most crucial. If you solo mid you should get to 6 before the first night (usually you will be around 6-7). Void should be maxed first but you will want one point in silence and one point in his passive buff when you start ganking. You should also have brown boots, bottle, and 3 gg branches at this time so you can chase down most enemy heroes. From here on out your main job is to pay attention to the map and see if there are any weak heroes to pick off. 2 voids and a few smacks are enough to pick off most heroes at that point of the game, so find an easy target and just go for it. Your ally should be able to assist you and even if the enemy hugs the tower, you have a good chance of securing the kill. You will be roaming most of the time so just repeat this, occasionally staying in the lane to help push and returning to mid so the other hero doesn't free farm. Pick up runes along the way so you can keep your life/mana up and continue to gank. Don't forget to spam your ult as much as you can during the night time to extend the duration of the night!
I don't play NS much because he's pretty imba in pubs but I do pretty well when I do.
http://dotabuff.com/players/15553165/matches?hero=night-stalker&game_mode=&match_type=real
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On May 24 2013 06:57 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 20:41 DrPandaPhD wrote:
Go mid with 1 tango 3 branches. Buy bottle asap
Go treads + bottle + magic wand + urn
Get BKB and then there are a lot of viable options. Like skull basher / armlet / heart / heavens halbeard / agh scepter etc All depending on what you face
First and Second night are 2 very important moments for you. Especially first night (in pubs). That's when you have quite high moevement speed and supports barely even have boots at this point. Try to get as much kills as possible during this phase. Whoa whoa whoa, wait a minute. I like reading your advice on here Panda, but one thing confused me a bit, Treads > Phase for NS mid? I was under the impression that Phase would be better, it just offers so much utility, and great burst speed to slip through creeps to kill, or to slip through creeps to escape. Clarification on this?
Personally, I'm a fan of phase on this hero, but one of the biggest strength of treads on a good NS player would be the strength of tread switching. Also, the movement speed boost is a bit lost on NS, so the stats feel really nice. Sometimes, not having the phase ability to go through creeps will screw you on NS, though.
Its up to preference, though, and compelling arguments to both boots.
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On May 24 2013 07:15 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:57 deadmau wrote:On March 24 2013 20:41 DrPandaPhD wrote:
Go mid with 1 tango 3 branches. Buy bottle asap
Go treads + bottle + magic wand + urn
Get BKB and then there are a lot of viable options. Like skull basher / armlet / heart / heavens halbeard / agh scepter etc All depending on what you face
First and Second night are 2 very important moments for you. Especially first night (in pubs). That's when you have quite high moevement speed and supports barely even have boots at this point. Try to get as much kills as possible during this phase. Whoa whoa whoa, wait a minute. I like reading your advice on here Panda, but one thing confused me a bit, Treads > Phase for NS mid? I was under the impression that Phase would be better, it just offers so much utility, and great burst speed to slip through creeps to kill, or to slip through creeps to escape. Clarification on this? Personally, I'm a fan of phase on this hero, but one of the biggest strength of treads on a good NS player would be the strength of tread switching. Also, the movement speed boost is a bit lost on NS, so the stats feel really nice. Sometimes, not having the phase ability to go through creeps will screw you on NS, though. Its up to preference, though, and compelling arguments to both boots.
I see, I guess there will never be a for sure answer since it's all situational, however, I run into this predicament ALL the time. The thing about you mentioning Treads better, but you get so punked often by being blocked by creeps as melee, I sometimes feel obligated to forgo the benefits of Treads, and just B-line for Phase boots.
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On March 24 2013 21:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
About leveling up, you should have 2-1-2 at level 5, or 3-1-1, but at level 6 you shouldn't level up ulti, since night will come around that time, and you can level it up next level.
On March 25 2013 18:34 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 18:20 meijin wrote:
lots of good advice here. i would just like to add that during day time you want to be using your ult as much as possible (the more you use your ult the higher % of the game is played during night). i'm not saying to just blindly use it every cooldown but you should be planning out what you're going to do after first night is over so that you can make the most of your ultimate. you can group up to push a tower or tp gank if you see the opportunity. I assume it's a typo and you meant that you should use your ult during NIGHTIME not daytime. Using your ult during daytime will delay the next night, so don't do it unless to secure a kill.
On May 22 2013 21:47 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 14:03 hacklebeast wrote:I have a lot of success using this guidebasic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn. follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well. Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day. Next up, you need at least one point of Fear in first 5 levels for your ganking to be effective. You also don't need Darkness at level 6. Up to level 6, skill build should be 3-1-2.
Halps please, I know that I want to extend night as long as possible by using ult during night, but this 1st night part I'm supposed to not have ult so I can have an extra point elsewhere? But don't I want ULT by first night so i can get as long a 1st night as possible?
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On May 24 2013 07:45 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 21:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:
About leveling up, you should have 2-1-2 at level 5, or 3-1-1, but at level 6 you shouldn't level up ulti, since night will come around that time, and you can level it up next level.
Show nested quote +On March 25 2013 18:34 Jetaap wrote:On March 25 2013 18:20 meijin wrote:
lots of good advice here. i would just like to add that during day time you want to be using your ult as much as possible (the more you use your ult the higher % of the game is played during night). i'm not saying to just blindly use it every cooldown but you should be planning out what you're going to do after first night is over so that you can make the most of your ultimate. you can group up to push a tower or tp gank if you see the opportunity. I assume it's a typo and you meant that you should use your ult during NIGHTIME not daytime. Using your ult during daytime will delay the next night, so don't do it unless to secure a kill. Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 21:47 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 22 2013 14:03 hacklebeast wrote:I have a lot of success using this guidebasic idea is have boots, bottle, quelling blade, and gauntlet before the first night, and have upgraded boots and helm (and usualy an ogre club) by the second night. I like helm because it gives you something to do during the day. I don't go AM level of afk farming, but i would really prefer if there wasn't a whole lot of fighting during day time. Also it is a not insignificant source of regen during night. Tower dive a squishy hero->kill ancient stack-> have enough health to do it again when they respawn. follow up is aghs->basher->bkb->heart/ab. I get aghs just about every game, usually first major item. The only exception is in the games you dominate so hard that they are already playing 5 man dota 20 min in. Bkb can be gotten earlier if either they have lots of stuns, or you personally aren't doing so well. Something I see a lot of NS do wrong that is really easy to fix is not using the ultimate at night. It should constantly be on cool down during night time. If you keep using it makes the second night almost 50% longer (depends on things like what level you are, and when you die relative to the cooldown timer). The only reasons not to use it is if you are about to level up, and you will get more night time if you wait another 30 sec, or if natural night is about to end, and using it will leave you with no escape mechanism for 60 sec in the following day. Next up, you need at least one point of Fear in first 5 levels for your ganking to be effective. You also don't need Darkness at level 6. Up to level 6, skill build should be 3-1-2. Halps please, I know that I want to extend night as long as possible by using ult during night, but this 1st night part I'm supposed to not have ult so I can have an extra point elsewhere? But don't I want ULT by first night so i can get as long a 1st night as possible?
You will have your ulti during your first night, you just don't need it at level 6, at that level point in Void/Fear/Hunter in the Night is better spent, and if you are solo mid, Night will come around your level 7 - 10 anyway when you are going to pick Darkness and use it to extend the Night.
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ult is rarely worth it on NS before level 8 or 9. In fact, in most games I play as NS I get double level in ult at 10/11.
There are games where I go 4/0/4/0 and some games where I go silence @ level 2 - primarily if you're going to be diving stunners or blinkers, take a point in silence. Else, it's a waste of mana.
Bottle, urn, and wand are definitely core IMO, and in almost all situations I prefer treads to phase-you're so fast already that the movespeed bonus and even the clipping are not that great-the damage is nice, but you don't need it. Treads, on the other hand, give you a lot of flexibility, and tread switching allows you to maximize your time on the map, even if you miss a rune for some reason.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 24 2013 10:12 wherebugsgo wrote:
There are games where I go 4/0/4/0 and some games where I go silence @ level 2 - primarily if you're going to be diving stunners or blinkers, take a point in silence. Else, it's a waste of mana.
An important thing--don't use your skill points on silence or passive until either the night time, or (in the case of silence) if you absolutely need it. They do virtually nothing during the day, so you may as well just save the skill points. Decide whether you need them then.
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On May 24 2013 10:49 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 10:12 wherebugsgo wrote:
There are games where I go 4/0/4/0 and some games where I go silence @ level 2 - primarily if you're going to be diving stunners or blinkers, take a point in silence. Else, it's a waste of mana.
An important thing--don't use your skill points on silence or passive until either the night time, or (in the case of silence) if you absolutely need it. They do virtually nothing during the day, so you may as well just save the skill points. Decide whether you need them then.
Generally I find silence before night useful in mid lane to keep myself alive, especially if I didn't go stout shield. Against someone like QoP or puck or a gank it can be the difference between dying and living with 50 HP.
I haven't saved points in practice, mostly because I feel like if I need the silence, it would be in a stressful situation, and I don't trust my skill enough to not panic and place the point + cast properly. Generally just by looking at the enemy lineup you'll know if you will need the silence or not, at least for pubs.
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It can also be worth it in lane to not spend the extra points in void at level 1(while saving the skill points) to keep the low mana cost for last hitting.
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Btw, don't forget that some teams are harder to play against with NS than others.
If there is any trouble killing people during the night, going into a aghs & gem might be way more helpful to the team thn, let's say a armlet + heart
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EPT
