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On November 26 2013 04:08 ref4 wrote:
Your team will have to be really 4 protect 1 (all of them protecting you) for Void to work. He comes online later than all carries, can't split push and have terrible laning phase. He shines at the 50 minute mark, 6 slotted with beastly items. Problem is getting him there and not dying to the enemy team push.
Because of the above I belive Void, while super fun to play and powerful in pub games, has his niche in a place that pro teams don't visit too often, and that is afk farming without too much team utility in the early to mid game (early to late in worst case scenarios). Some other carries filling that niche would be PL or prolly the shining example: Medusa. She was unusable for quite some time and we see some of her, but I would say she is a complete anti-thesis of everything that patching as of late is trying to incorporate: changes that fasten the gameplay.
But I would die to actually see Faceless Void played with a 4p1 mindset of supoer-duper farming 50 mins no rush plox :D
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United States15275 Posts
On November 26 2013 04:08 ref4 wrote:
Your team will have to be really 4 protect 1 (all of them protecting you) for Void to work. He comes online later than all carries, can't split push and have terrible laning phase. He shines at the 50 minute mark, 6 slotted with beastly items. Problem is getting him there and not dying to the enemy team push.
He comes online faster than most carries. Unless you exclusively rush for BF every game, Void can start fighting very early as he prefers cheaper IAS/damage items early on instead of stats items. Level 6 Chronosphere starts off very powerful and only improves incrementally.
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Which carries comes online later than void outside of AM, PL and medusa?
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Arguably spectre but it depends on your build.
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what do you mean by online?
like 1v5 capability?
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not getting carried but carrying
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On November 26 2013 07:49 mizU wrote:
what do you mean by online?
like 1v5 capability?
doesn't require his team to keep him up. Can start tearing it up
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Netherlands45349 Posts
He does not come online faster then most carries, maybe faster then most hard carries(which are limited to AM, Dusa, and arguably PL and Spectre).
He has the potential to do significant things early with Chrono but those oppertunities are not very common.
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United States47024 Posts
AM comes online faster because of how much faster AM farms.
On November 26 2013 05:16 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 04:08 ref4 wrote:
Your team will have to be really 4 protect 1 (all of them protecting you) for Void to work. He comes online later than all carries, can't split push and have terrible laning phase. He shines at the 50 minute mark, 6 slotted with beastly items. Problem is getting him there and not dying to the enemy team push. He comes online faster than most carries. Unless you exclusively rush for BF every game, Void can start fighting very early as he prefers cheaper IAS/damage items early on instead of stats items. Level 6 Chronosphere starts off very powerful and only improves incrementally.
He can split-push. He can't teamfight effectively without BKB, damage, and attack speed, which is 2 small items + BKB at the earliest (e.g. MoM BKB Mael).
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Spectre is relevant early on because of haunt and desolate. That alone makes her very effective in the early phase.
FV is junk until the late game. You could go support fv or farmed fv, it doesn't matter early on. That's because the only thing you contribute is chrono. Regardless of how farmed you are, the quality of the chrono is what win or lose fights.
Its only late game where fv is relevant damage wise. Even then, his entire game is still dependent on the quality of the chrono.
PS. It is for this reason that I rush Agha on fv in pubs. Chrono is a game defining spell, and the ability to use it freely makes it a good investment. Of course there shoukd be other DPS outlets in your team too.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 26 2013 11:02 Kipsate wrote:
He does not come online faster then most carries, maybe faster then most hard carries(which are limited to AM, Dusa, and arguably PL and Spectre).
He has the potential to do significant things early with Chrono but those opportunities are not very common.
Sorry, I meant he can start fighting earlier than most carries. It takes him a long time to come online.
On November 26 2013 12:44 TheYango wrote:AM comes online faster because of how much faster AM farms. Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 05:16 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 26 2013 04:08 ref4 wrote:
Your team will have to be really 4 protect 1 (all of them protecting you) for Void to work. He comes online later than all carries, can't split push and have terrible laning phase. He shines at the 50 minute mark, 6 slotted with beastly items. Problem is getting him there and not dying to the enemy team push. He comes online faster than most carries. Unless you exclusively rush for BF every game, Void can start fighting very early as he prefers cheaper IAS/damage items early on instead of stats items. Level 6 Chronosphere starts off very powerful and only improves incrementally. He can split-push. He can't teamfight effectively without BKB, damage, and attack speed, which is 2 small items + BKB at the earliest (e.g. MoM BKB Mael).
He can split-push...kinda? He has a good escape and can make anyone pause with the threat of Chrono, but he's not great at it. He's not even efficient at clearing creep waves until he gets BF or Maelstrom.
FV will not have the damage output to threaten more than 2 opponents without either a MoM-oriented build (which I feel is deficient in several ways) or 2 IAS items. But the way his ultimate works, he doesn't need to build the former or wait for the latter to start picking fights.
On November 26 2013 13:49 DucK- wrote:
Spectre is relevant early on because of haunt and desolate. That alone makes her very effective in the early phase.
FV is junk until the late game. You could go support fv or farmed fv, it doesn't matter early on. That's because the only thing you contribute is chrono. Regardless of how farmed you are, the quality of the chrono is what win or lose fights.
Its only late game where fv is relevant damage wise. Even then, his entire game is still dependent on the quality of the chrono.
PS. It is for this reason that I rush Agha on fv in pubs. Chrono is a game defining spell, and the ability to use it freely makes it a good investment. Of course there shoukd be other DPS outlets in your team too.
Or you can go midgame FV, which can be more relevant in fights than AFK-farm FV and not as useless as support FV?
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It's hard to conclude whether Void's relevant in the early, mid, or the late game because it all depends on the situation in-game. And yes, I can't deny that Void's so useless until he's ultra-farmed, but all in all with the Yasha-Maelstrom (as in my experience) you can almost make your presence felt throughout the mid-game (in case where you are able to outfarm / on an equal footing with the opposing carry).
I never get a BKB for Void. Any personal thoughts about BKB for him (to motivate me)?
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On November 26 2013 15:19 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 11:02 Kipsate wrote:
He does not come online faster then most carries, maybe faster then most hard carries(which are limited to AM, Dusa, and arguably PL and Spectre).
He has the potential to do significant things early with Chrono but those opportunities are not very common. Sorry, I meant he can start fighting earlier than most carries. It takes him a long time to come online. Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 12:44 TheYango wrote:AM comes online faster because of how much faster AM farms. On November 26 2013 05:16 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 26 2013 04:08 ref4 wrote:
Your team will have to be really 4 protect 1 (all of them protecting you) for Void to work. He comes online later than all carries, can't split push and have terrible laning phase. He shines at the 50 minute mark, 6 slotted with beastly items. Problem is getting him there and not dying to the enemy team push. He comes online faster than most carries. Unless you exclusively rush for BF every game, Void can start fighting very early as he prefers cheaper IAS/damage items early on instead of stats items. Level 6 Chronosphere starts off very powerful and only improves incrementally. He can split-push. He can't teamfight effectively without BKB, damage, and attack speed, which is 2 small items + BKB at the earliest (e.g. MoM BKB Mael). He can split-push...kinda? He has a good escape and can make anyone pause with the threat of Chrono, but he's not great at it. He's not even efficient at clearing creep waves until he gets BF or Maelstrom. FV will not have the damage output to threaten more than 2 opponents without either a MoM-oriented build (which I feel is deficient in several ways) or 2 IAS items. But the way his ultimate works, he doesn't need to build the former or wait for the latter to start picking fights. Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 13:49 DucK- wrote:
Spectre is relevant early on because of haunt and desolate. That alone makes her very effective in the early phase.
FV is junk until the late game. You could go support fv or farmed fv, it doesn't matter early on. That's because the only thing you contribute is chrono. Regardless of how farmed you are, the quality of the chrono is what win or lose fights.
Its only late game where fv is relevant damage wise. Even then, his entire game is still dependent on the quality of the chrono.
PS. It is for this reason that I rush Agha on fv in pubs. Chrono is a game defining spell, and the ability to use it freely makes it a good investment. Of course there shoukd be other DPS outlets in your team too. Or you can go midgame FV, which can be more relevant in fights than AFK-farm FV and not as useless as support FV?
When I say support fv, its just meant to emphasise on the point that it doesn't matter how fat fv is, his entire early mid game is based on his chrono usage.
Even if you go for a 'mid game' build, you are still essentially useless outside of chrono. Being melee and with no burst or steroids, Fv needs attack speed, damage, magic immunity, and hp to be useful as a DPS source outside chrono. Unfortunately all this means you need massive farm and levels. Which then all leads back to the same thing: his early mid game solely revolves around his chrono usage.
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On November 26 2013 17:47 Eriksen wrote:
It's hard to conclude whether Void's relevant in the early, mid, or the late game because it all depends on the situation in-game. And yes, I can't deny that Void's so useless until he's ultra-farmed, but all in all with the Yasha-Maelstrom (as in my experience) you can almost make your presence felt throughout the mid-game (in case where you are able to outfarm / on an equal footing with the opposing carry).
I never get a BKB for Void. Any personal thoughts about BKB for him (to motivate me)?
Its to be useful without chrono. Otherwise with his low HP, he just dies to the random aoe nukes. Also sometimes its essential to bkb in your chrono, as any disables coming from outside the chrono will ruin your output during the chrono duration. Lastly, its used to counter the amplify effect of MoM, given fv's paper hp
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On November 26 2013 17:47 Eriksen wrote:
It's hard to conclude whether Void's relevant in the early, mid, or the late game because it all depends on the situation in-game. And yes, I can't deny that Void's so useless until he's ultra-farmed, but all in all with the Yasha-Maelstrom (as in my experience) you can almost make your presence felt throughout the mid-game (in case where you are able to outfarm / on an equal footing with the opposing carry).
I never get a BKB for Void. Any personal thoughts about BKB for him (to motivate me)?
What DucK- said in his previous post, and if enemy has at least 2 longer disables, BKB is a must in my opinion.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 26 2013 19:42 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 15:19 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 26 2013 11:02 Kipsate wrote:
He does not come online faster then most carries, maybe faster then most hard carries(which are limited to AM, Dusa, and arguably PL and Spectre).
He has the potential to do significant things early with Chrono but those opportunities are not very common. Sorry, I meant he can start fighting earlier than most carries. It takes him a long time to come online. On November 26 2013 12:44 TheYango wrote:AM comes online faster because of how much faster AM farms. On November 26 2013 05:16 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 26 2013 04:08 ref4 wrote:
Your team will have to be really 4 protect 1 (all of them protecting you) for Void to work. He comes online later than all carries, can't split push and have terrible laning phase. He shines at the 50 minute mark, 6 slotted with beastly items. Problem is getting him there and not dying to the enemy team push. He comes online faster than most carries. Unless you exclusively rush for BF every game, Void can start fighting very early as he prefers cheaper IAS/damage items early on instead of stats items. Level 6 Chronosphere starts off very powerful and only improves incrementally. He can split-push. He can't teamfight effectively without BKB, damage, and attack speed, which is 2 small items + BKB at the earliest (e.g. MoM BKB Mael). He can split-push...kinda? He has a good escape and can make anyone pause with the threat of Chrono, but he's not great at it. He's not even efficient at clearing creep waves until he gets BF or Maelstrom. FV will not have the damage output to threaten more than 2 opponents without either a MoM-oriented build (which I feel is deficient in several ways) or 2 IAS items. But the way his ultimate works, he doesn't need to build the former or wait for the latter to start picking fights. On November 26 2013 13:49 DucK- wrote:
Spectre is relevant early on because of haunt and desolate. That alone makes her very effective in the early phase.
FV is junk until the late game. You could go support fv or farmed fv, it doesn't matter early on. That's because the only thing you contribute is chrono. Regardless of how farmed you are, the quality of the chrono is what win or lose fights.
Its only late game where fv is relevant damage wise. Even then, his entire game is still dependent on the quality of the chrono.
PS. It is for this reason that I rush Agha on fv in pubs. Chrono is a game defining spell, and the ability to use it freely makes it a good investment. Of course there shoukd be other DPS outlets in your team too. Or you can go midgame FV, which can be more relevant in fights than AFK-farm FV and not as useless as support FV? When I say support fv, its just meant to emphasise on the point that it doesn't matter how fat fv is, his entire early mid game is based on his chrono usage. Even if you go for a 'mid game' build, you are still essentially useless outside of chrono. Being melee and with no burst or steroids, Fv needs attack speed, damage, magic immunity, and hp to be useful as a DPS source outside chrono. Unfortunately all this means you need massive farm and levels. Which then all leads back to the same thing: his early mid game solely revolves around his chrono usage.
That's why I think a 'mid game' build is essential for him. All he has is Chrono and he needs to get whatever he can off that. At least his Maelstrom-centric builds let you transition to Mjollnir/AC. Most of the other ones lack smooth item progression so Void stalls out just when he has to contribute.
I feel that if you picking Void to wait until he gets fat, then you should just pick another carry. His skill set only makes him a hard carry by coincidence. He's more an anti-carry carry that scales really well.
On November 26 2013 17:47 Eriksen wrote:
It's hard to conclude whether Void's relevant in the early, mid, or the late game because it all depends on the situation in-game. And yes, I can't deny that Void's so useless until he's ultra-farmed, but all in all with the Yasha-Maelstrom (as in my experience) you can almost make your presence felt throughout the mid-game (in case where you are able to outfarm / on an equal footing with the opposing carry).
I never get a BKB for Void. Any personal thoughts about BKB for him (to motivate me)?
Backtrack only removes damage, not status effects. If your team relies on you for late game damage output, you absolutely need it. If you have Dark Seer-Jakiro, meh.
How's S&Y on him? I'm itching for practical ways to improve his MS.
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On March 26 2013 11:06 idscy wrote:Welcome to dota, you should call them heroes  In terms of pure 1v1 manfight 6 item (any 6 in the game, your choice), there are three heroes which are the top dogs. Void, ursa and tiny. Of these three, void will win because of chrono--the skill which really defines void. That being said, using void with less than 6 items isnt quite as scary. What makes void a good pick is having the chrono for use in team fights. This and his jump allows your team to engage on any hero which gets caught in the chrono. This skill also makes requires the player on void to have very good decision making and good micro, especially at a high level, because a botched chrono could very quickly become a loss. Often times void is easy to disable in his chrono assuming some support hero with a stun has very good positioning in fights, and this usually requires that void have a bkb. Other items like heaven's halbard and hex are also quite good against him. Note hex removes evasion but not backtrack. The best time to pick void is when you know that you can secure your safelane--that is the combined power of your two supports plus void in lane isnt greater than the combined power of theirs. For this, and a few other reasons I will outline below, void has become less popular lately in the metagame. The other main reason to pick void, is if the other team is relying on one or two heroes for sources of damage in teamfights. Chronosphere will allow you to simply kill these heroes outright most times which usually allows you to take the fight and eventually the game. Reasons not to pick void: He requires quite a bit of time to farm. To compare him and another popular hero right now, Phantom lancer, void is your smart missile while PL is the carpet h-bomb. What makes pl the more attractive pick, is with heart and diffusal he can push your towers with only illusions, kill the supports with 1-2 lances (manaburn against low hp int heroes is very very good) and is ok enough at fighting to carry against a few different types of lategame heroes. Void on the other hand sucks at pushing, farms slower than pl unless he has some farm item (and then usually still farms slower) and needs to initiate full on, often with chrono to get any kills. Pl arguably takes the same amount of farm to come online as a carry but does a better job of controlling space in teamfights as well as being incredibly fucking good at pushing. In the current meta, space controlling carries as well as ones which assist in pushes are more popular because it is easier to take fights on the high ground as well as retain map control by splitpushing/pushing/threatening towers. That being said there are two main builds on void, both can be done with or without a midas. Maelstrom, and Battlefury. battlefury gives you cleave but doesnt really kick in until you have attackspeed. The ais granted by maelstrom allows void to be more useful faster (the attack speed allows him to fight earlier) while his overall farm rate might be less than if you had gone battlefury. The rest of his inventory is largely situational, although a few popular items are bkb, mkb, buriza and butterfly. Things which are good with void: many heroes. Void does in some sense require your supports to be dangerous at early levels or at least competent at lane control so that the other team cant do some visage luna +1 trilane or whatever and shut down your gameplan. He combos well with heroes that do burst damage (qop, lesh, sk, lina, rubick) and does not work well with a team that takes a long time to kill anything throughout the game although can be used very effectively with them (as long as you dont have too many on your team you shouldnt be worried). Other than that, heroes that can spam things in chrono--sk's ulti, lich, etc. But without getting too much into what makes a good team composition ill end my post here! GL HF using void
So to sum up, the answer is...... Never.
lol
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On March 26 2013 11:06 idscy wrote:Welcome to dota, you should call them heroes In terms of pure 1v1 manfight 6 item (any 6 in the game, your choice), there are three heroes which are the top dogs. Void, ursa and tiny. Of these three, void will win because of chrono--the skill which really defines void. -snip-
I know this is a 6 month old post, but I have a minor quibble. Ursa is a terrible hero ultra late game in the 6 slot stage. The fixed damage from fury swipes doesnt scale into the late game, and requires you to get a lot more auto attacks in to build up the stacks, whereas most other late game carries hit like a truck in the ultra late game. Ursa usually has many wasted item slots like blink (as a gap closer), bkb and vlads (along with boots), which give him only 2 slots for DPS items. Couple that with the fact that Ursa is a horrible flash farmer, and you can see why he is like chaos knight. His strength is at its peak when he has just acquired blink + vlads around 18 minutes into the game, and you're pretty much hoping that he can snowball carry your team to a victory before 30 minutes. After that he's just a shit hero.
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On November 27 2013 02:37 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 11:06 idscy wrote:Welcome to dota, you should call them heroes In terms of pure 1v1 manfight 6 item (any 6 in the game, your choice), there are three heroes which are the top dogs. Void, ursa and tiny. Of these three, void will win because of chrono--the skill which really defines void. -snip- I know this is a 6 month old post, but I have a minor quibble. Ursa is a terrible hero ultra late game in the 6 slot stage. The fixed damage from fury swipes doesnt scale into the late game, and requires you to get a lot more auto attacks in to build up the stacks, whereas most other late game carries hit like a truck in the ultra late game. Ursa usually has many wasted item slots like blink (as a gap closer), bkb and vlads (along with boots), which give him only 2 slots for DPS items. Couple that with the fact that Ursa is a horrible flash farmer, and you can see why he is like chaos knight. His strength is at its peak when he has just acquired blink + vlads around 18 minutes into the game, and you're pretty much hoping that he can snowball carry your team to a victory before 30 minutes. After that he's just a shit hero.
Ursa is a gimmicky hero only useful for the fact that he can solo Rosh/take down Rosh really fast so the only time he's picked in competitive matches is for cheesy shit like level 1 Rosh (I think Alliance did this vs. DK sometimes back)
Yeah other than that he is shut down by the enemy team's forcestaffs
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On November 27 2013 03:14 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 02:37 Piledriver wrote:On March 26 2013 11:06 idscy wrote:Welcome to dota, you should call them heroes In terms of pure 1v1 manfight 6 item (any 6 in the game, your choice), there are three heroes which are the top dogs. Void, ursa and tiny. Of these three, void will win because of chrono--the skill which really defines void. -snip- I know this is a 6 month old post, but I have a minor quibble. Ursa is a terrible hero ultra late game in the 6 slot stage. The fixed damage from fury swipes doesnt scale into the late game, and requires you to get a lot more auto attacks in to build up the stacks, whereas most other late game carries hit like a truck in the ultra late game. Ursa usually has many wasted item slots like blink (as a gap closer), bkb and vlads (along with boots), which give him only 2 slots for DPS items. Couple that with the fact that Ursa is a horrible flash farmer, and you can see why he is like chaos knight. His strength is at its peak when he has just acquired blink + vlads around 18 minutes into the game, and you're pretty much hoping that he can snowball carry your team to a victory before 30 minutes. After that he's just a shit hero. Ursa is a gimmicky hero only useful for the fact that he can solo Rosh/take down Rosh really fast so the only time he's picked in competitive matches is for cheesy shit like level 1 Rosh (I think Alliance did this vs. DK sometimes back) Yeah other than that he is shut down by the enemy team's forcestaffs
Ursa is strong to pick against Naix. Also a good hero to run Wisp with.
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EPT
