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Adrian_mx
Mexico1880 Posts
Im just wondering since I play captains mode, whats the best time to pick void ? What kind of team comps would be good with him ? I really like him and I would like to learn more about captains mode and certain characters. I started about a month ago now. | ||
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idscy
United States256 Posts
 In terms of pure 1v1 manfight 6 item (any 6 in the game, your choice), there are three heroes which are the top dogs. Void, ursa and tiny. Of these three, void will win because of chrono--the skill which really defines void. That being said, using void with less than 6 items isnt quite as scary. What makes void a good pick is having the chrono for use in team fights. This and his jump allows your team to engage on any hero which gets caught in the chrono. This skill also makes requires the player on void to have very good decision making and good micro, especially at a high level, because a botched chrono could very quickly become a loss. Often times void is easy to disable in his chrono assuming some support hero with a stun has very good positioning in fights, and this usually requires that void have a bkb. Other items like heaven's halbard and hex are also quite good against him. Note hex removes evasion but not backtrack. The best time to pick void is when you know that you can secure your safelane--that is the combined power of your two supports plus void in lane isnt greater than the combined power of theirs. For this, and a few other reasons I will outline below, void has become less popular lately in the metagame. The other main reason to pick void, is if the other team is relying on one or two heroes for sources of damage in teamfights. Chronosphere will allow you to simply kill these heroes outright most times which usually allows you to take the fight and eventually the game. Reasons not to pick void: He requires quite a bit of time to farm. To compare him and another popular hero right now, Phantom lancer, void is your smart missile while PL is the carpet h-bomb. What makes pl the more attractive pick, is with heart and diffusal he can push your towers with only illusions, kill the supports with 1-2 lances (manaburn against low hp int heroes is very very good) and is ok enough at fighting to carry against a few different types of lategame heroes. Void on the other hand sucks at pushing, farms slower than pl unless he has some farm item (and then usually still farms slower) and needs to initiate full on, often with chrono to get any kills. Pl arguably takes the same amount of farm to come online as a carry but does a better job of controlling space in teamfights as well as being incredibly fucking good at pushing. In the current meta, space controlling carries as well as ones which assist in pushes are more popular because it is easier to take fights on the high ground as well as retain map control by splitpushing/pushing/threatening towers. That being said there are two main builds on void, both can be done with or without a midas. Maelstrom, and Battlefury. battlefury gives you cleave but doesnt really kick in until you have attackspeed. The ais granted by maelstrom allows void to be more useful faster (the attack speed allows him to fight earlier) while his overall farm rate might be less than if you had gone battlefury. The rest of his inventory is largely situational, although a few popular items are bkb, mkb, buriza and butterfly. Things which are good with void: many heroes. Void does in some sense require your supports to be dangerous at early levels or at least competent at lane control so that the other team cant do some visage luna +1 trilane or whatever and shut down your gameplan. He combos well with heroes that do burst damage (qop, lesh, sk, lina, rubick) and does not work well with a team that takes a long time to kill anything throughout the game although can be used very effectively with them (as long as you dont have too many on your team you shouldnt be worried). Other than that, heroes that can spam things in chrono--sk's ulti, lich, etc. But without getting too much into what makes a good team composition ill end my post here! GL HF using void | ||
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drew-chan
Malaysia1517 Posts
Some better lineups I personally like to use with void include heroes that are great when you land that big ult, or can bail you out if the chrono goes wrong. Jakiro has a nice ice path macropyre which does just that. Shadow demon is great to help burst down and chase heroes while having a good defensive spell. Rubick you pretty much have to pick/ban as he can steal your ult pretty easily especially with a blink. | ||
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/The_Defense/Season_3/Playoffs mouz vs Dignitas (Feb 6) game 2. I personally feed like an Anti-Mage would have been better than a Void here. nth vs 3D Max (Feb 7) game 1. I actually like 3D Max's draft better, but they were just outclassed by the better team in this game. Just a couple of games with Void that I saw while quickly browsing through the page. Void doesn't look like a perfect fit in either comp, but maybe you can see what kind of team the pros were going for in their drafts. | ||
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Adrian_mx
Mexico1880 Posts
On March 26 2013 11:06 idscy wrote: Welcome to dota, you should call them heroes In terms of pure 1v1 manfight 6 item (any 6 in the game, your choice), there are three heroes which are the top dogs. Void, ursa and tiny. Of these three, void will win because of chrono--the skill which really defines void. That being said, using void with less than 6 items isnt quite as scary. What makes void a good pick is having the chrono for use in team fights. This and his jump allows your team to engage on any hero which gets caught in the chrono. This skill also makes requires the player on void to have very good decision making and good micro, especially at a high level, because a botched chrono could very quickly become a loss. Often times void is easy to disable in his chrono assuming some support hero with a stun has very good positioning in fights, and this usually requires that void have a bkb. Other items like heaven's halbard and hex are also quite good against him. Note hex removes evasion but not backtrack. The best time to pick void is when you know that you can secure your safelane--that is the combined power of your two supports plus void in lane isnt greater than the combined power of theirs. For this, and a few other reasons I will outline below, void has become less popular lately in the metagame. The other main reason to pick void, is if the other team is relying on one or two heroes for sources of damage in teamfights. Chronosphere will allow you to simply kill these heroes outright most times which usually allows you to take the fight and eventually the game. Reasons not to pick void: He requires quite a bit of time to farm. To compare him and another popular hero right now, Phantom lancer, void is your smart missile while PL is the carpet h-bomb. What makes pl the more attractive pick, is with heart and diffusal he can push your towers with only illusions, kill the supports with 1-2 lances (manaburn against low hp int heroes is very very good) and is ok enough at fighting to carry against a few different types of lategame heroes. Void on the other hand sucks at pushing, farms slower than pl unless he has some farm item (and then usually still farms slower) and needs to initiate full on, often with chrono to get any kills. Pl arguably takes the same amount of farm to come online as a carry but does a better job of controlling space in teamfights as well as being incredibly fucking good at pushing. In the current meta, space controlling carries as well as ones which assist in pushes are more popular because it is easier to take fights on the high ground as well as retain map control by splitpushing/pushing/threatening towers. That being said there are two main builds on void, both can be done with or without a midas. Maelstrom, and Battlefury. battlefury gives you cleave but doesnt really kick in until you have attackspeed. The ais granted by maelstrom allows void to be more useful faster (the attack speed allows him to fight earlier) while his overall farm rate might be less than if you had gone battlefury. The rest of his inventory is largely situational, although a few popular items are bkb, mkb, buriza and butterfly. Things which are good with void: many heroes. Void does in some sense require your supports to be dangerous at early levels or at least competent at lane control so that the other team cant do some visage luna +1 trilane or whatever and shut down your gameplan. He combos well with heroes that do burst damage (qop, lesh, sk, lina, rubick) and does not work well with a team that takes a long time to kill anything throughout the game although can be used very effectively with them (as long as you dont have too many on your team you shouldnt be worried). Other than that, heroes that can spam things in chrono--sk's ulti, lich, etc. But without getting too much into what makes a good team composition ill end my post here! GL HF using voidBest advice, thank you so much Also thank you two for posting as well much appreciated! | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
Hes a good pick if you're planning on going ultra late game as he will kill everyone once he gets 6 slotted no matter what. The other team has a good 30 minutes to mess with you and your team as you're not too strong however, and you need good ultimates to stay in the game. A bad ultimate can lose you the game if you catch your team in it. | ||
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Enzymatic
Canada1301 Posts
Void is typically only ran in a defensive trilane (Void + 2 supports). (In your teams safe lane). So thats top with dire, and bot with radiant. He lanes well with supports like Venomancer, or anything else with a decent slow. Veno's gale allows void to get a good amount of auto attacks off which gives you many chances to get bash procs and take advantage of that damage and the stun. A Void + Veno + Slow/Stun support is always a really good trilane. In a decently high level Captains mode game.. Good players will always aggressive trilane against void as he is typically weaker then the more early game carries out there in tri v.s tri (carries such as gyro, naix, luna, even a bit weaker than AM). That's why in higher level CM games its a lot more difficult to get away with running a void in your line-up as the good players will automatically just try to shut him down. | ||
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MotherOfRunes
Germany2862 Posts
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
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Pkkktz
Finland14 Posts
On March 26 2013 19:50 Sickkiee wrote: Void is often used to counter PL (most times anyway) as his Chrono also reveals invis units and if used right can catch out PL multiple times (if the PL is bad). I don't see Void as good counter to PL. As you said you can catch him if the player is bad, but against good PL you will have problems catching him with chrono if your team doesn't have dusts. PL is great at pushing and can be very painful for 4-protect-1 line-ups to deal with. Not saying you can't play Void against PL, but Void alone is not going to counter him. | ||
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tada.hts
1968 Posts
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maru~
2345 Posts
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Skamtet
Canada634 Posts
On March 26 2013 19:50 Sickkiee wrote: often? examples, pleaseVoid is often used to counter PL (most times anyway) as his Chrono also reveals invis units and if used right can catch out PL multiple times (if the PL is bad). | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
People are right when they tell you he is really weak in lane though. Bash is good for the occasional harass/last hit and Backtrack helps with your sustainability, but his only active ability is an escape/weak slow at low levels. You need a solid trilane to protect him and allow him to get farm so he can be that mid/late game powerhouse. | ||
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
Then again if u alwais get 3+ chrono u should win the fights anyway | ||
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ViZe
United States1513 Posts
Void is awesome at lower levels because he is just very good at what he does and scales extremely well into the lategame. At higher levels he has more problems and is not usually picked above other more versatile and early-game relevant carries such as Antimage, Lone Druid, and Luna. | ||
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Adrian_mx
Mexico1880 Posts
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idscy
United States256 Posts
When compared to pl, void is much stronger in a 1v1 manfight especially with chrono. I want to point out that a significant portion of pl damage comes from manaburn, and void does not have a large mana pool to play around with...even lategame it is much lower than other agi carries meaning that against void, a pl's dps will fall off quite quickly while the void does more of a constant level of dps. Another thing to note in this matchup is that you cannot lifesteal from illusions...a small nuance which can become the difference between winning the game and losing it if the void is unable to hit the correct pl in fights--something which is not hard but requires a certain amount of experience and focus to do. Now how would a team with void on it push successfully against a pl on high ground? This is the most essential question because you cannot win the game without being able to win a fight on high ground, something which becomes particularly easier when the t3 tower is gone. Void cannot sit and attack the tower with his team behind because illusion spam from pl will eliminate void's mana and he will not be able to use chrono in the fight unless there is some stack (2-3) of manaboots or a kotl on your team. This means that after a certain amount of time you will be unable to push, requiring void to have mana again which will significantly delay any objectives (by at least 2-3 minutes each time). Having another semicarry with void is one way, which means you can do greater damage per push to buildings but still isnt the best solution. Furthermore being able to do this requires the lanes which you are not currently pushing down to be in a particular state--pushed and without a phantom lancer in them splitpushing. Another small nuance here is that playing against pl forces void to go bfury to deal with illusions (maelstrom becomes ineffective after pl gains a heart) which means that void requires a free lane in the early game to have his battlefury at a reasonable time (maelstrom is considered the 'i had a bad early game' 2nd choice in many cases, and would be particularly here because the cleave is necessary against pl with heart to kill the illusions fast enough so that your support can take up a more aggressive position in pushes and fights) Another thing to point out is that the opportunity to aggressive trilane against the pl (another hero who is quite bad in the early game or at lane controlling) is gone once you pick void. This sets your lanes quite nicely for your opponent who should be quite happy to trade farm on void for farm on pl, safely assuming that the illusion split push from pl will be adequate in the midgame to resist taking 5v5 fights (where void would have the advantage, particularly when not in a high ground siege setting). Furthermore, if you should still try to take an aggressive trilane with another hero and leave void to solo safelane (or perhaps even mid) the likely trade to occur is that the void loses his lane and you, to whatever extent, win your lane. Let's assume best case scenario with void losing his lane-- you win top (void losing WILL happen against 99% of heroes put mid or in offlane...consider, for a moment heroes in the offlane: wr, enigma, bounty hunter, weaver, ds, qop (not as popular), furion, clockwork, brood, etc; all of these heroes will absolutely CRUSH void-- so what you are trading again, is a void getting crushed for a pl getting crushed, assuming that they will either sacrifice the pl in lane, move another hero to sacrifice and change lanes, or can farm the woods with supports. In this case the simpler and less chaotic (also more practiced) trade would be to just leave the pl to farm while farming your void. I would also like to point out that pl with low NW inventory farms much quicker than void with low NW inventory due to illusions so it is likely that overall he will be farming faster than the void who really requires at least one farm item to even make pace. All that being said picking void still gives you a distinct advantage in teamfights allowing you the 'win now' option which against better and better teams will be increasingly hard to realize. To the people debating void as a common 'counter' to pl, it is certainly not a common one but certainly one experimented with. It was a solution played around with briefly but many teams found that to choose to take the game lategame with void is too difficult because you cannot very easily handle splitpushing and you are leaving the game down to winning teamfights (usually regardless of who has a gold/xp lead in the game) which is a significantly risky gameplan. People found that the much simpler and safer gameplan would be to either pick a strong offensive trilane with decent(+) pushing power, shutdown the pl's farm early as well as doing your best against their supports, take a strong advantage in items and be in a position to go high ground very early in the game (15-20minutes) (further restricting pl's room to farm as it is likely he would be needed in the defense as losing a rax so early is tremendously crippling as a low NW pl); OR to choose strong pushing/snowball heroes such as luna, ck, lycan, syllabear, and do the same thing: take very early towers and take many of them, constrict pl's room to farm and be able to go high ground at a very early point. Currently a very popular strat against pl is to pick jugg to push with the healing ward as well as syllabear to sustain high ground sieges even against very spammy heroes (kotl, rubick, lina, sd). To summarize in a tl;dr: There are much stronger and safer ways to play against pl than to pick void although it is true he was used against pl in the past. | ||
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Noak
Sweden84 Posts
During these fights you dont play as the massive dps monster but rather as initiator, pop your buble and try not to get picked off, note that you have to be making something happen with this kind of build as you're delaying your damage. | ||
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Archeon
3253 Posts
Which is exactly why he isnt picked anymore. He would be great in an even 50 minute game, but before he has 3 slots finished, he is a burden. He has a great disable (with huge cooldown), but needs some follow-up damage in teamfights and most common damage-dealer dont work good with chrono. The fact that he lacks a inherent farming skill means that he would have to fight a 6slot flashfarmer around minute 40, who will crush your supports in seconds and afterwards fight 3v1 or 4v1 against you, when you still cant do that. Heroes like kotl and jakiro do well with him, since both are potent laner and antipusher and have long duration spells that deal lots of damage. Dark Seer is pretty cool in conjunction with chronosphere, since both vacuum and shell have great synergy with it. Death Prophet and leshrac can work, although their positioning must be perfect and they really suffer from the fact that void cant contribute much to their great pushing potential. On paper warlocks slow is pretty op with chrono and he has a nice follow-up-ulty. Luna as well as gyro have great synergy with chrono but would needed to be played as slot two heroes at best, and the less farm these two get, the less useful they would be. Dont pick him when the enemy has sth that looks like an aggressive tri-lane or lots of long-range disabler (especially bane, rubik). | ||
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