EPTBest time to pick Faceless Void? - Page 5
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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idscy
United States256 Posts
On November 27 2013 02:37 Piledriver wrote: I know this is a 6 month old post, but I have a minor quibble. Ursa is a terrible hero ultra late game in the 6 slot stage. The fixed damage from fury swipes doesnt scale into the late game, and requires you to get a lot more auto attacks in to build up the stacks, whereas most other late game carries hit like a truck in the ultra late game. Ursa usually has many wasted item slots like blink (as a gap closer), bkb and vlads (along with boots), which give him only 2 slots for DPS items. Couple that with the fact that Ursa is a horrible flash farmer, and you can see why he is like chaos knight. His strength is at its peak when he has just acquired blink + vlads around 18 minutes into the game, and you're pretty much hoping that he can snowball carry your team to a victory before 30 minutes. After that he's just a shit hero. The situation I was discussing was pretty theoretical and not relevant to actual dota games, but is good to know nevertheless because it can frame a few heroes in a certain way, highlighting some of their abilities in pure 1v1 situations. That being said, the 6-slot stage in this hypothetical 1v1 involves true 6slot, and does not include items that are more or less absolutely necessary in a real dota game (bkb, blink, forcestaff, eb/ghost scepter in some cases,, BoT's (treads better dps), and maybe even things like radiance, etc). We did add in the caveat that you had to have boots on your hero. I also wanna note a few * situations as well, because the last time I tested this it was admittedly a fairly long time ago and before the swipes change (although it was back when craggy was less op) but I still think it is pretty relevant, enough so to include in a discussion here. It was also pre-abyssal era dota, so we actually used hex on ursa then. It turned out that we found vlads to be optimal for ursa lategame as well (has no chance of sustaining against void after chrono, even with no bash from void). Anyway it happened that tiny vs, void was almost entirely up to number of craggy vs. number of bash, and void was beating ursa solely because of chrono (and satanic timing) but still slightly relied on bash proc (still pre-abyssal era ursa, but we did test bash once). I mention the abyssal thing because it seems quite correct that abyssal should be stronger than hex for keeping enemies near you (or, more relevant in this case, keeping them from attacking you). On November 27 2013 02:19 emythrel wrote: So to sum up, the answer is...... Never. lol I'm not sure what you are using my post to sum up...perhaps I am misreading something =) On November 27 2013 05:56 TheYango wrote: One of the things people don't notice but is very significant against Ursa is that while Magic Immunity does not reset Fury Swipes stack count, Manta/Purges DO. Consequently this means that intelligent usage of either of these neuter Ursa's damage output in a man-fight against another carry. However, many carries (Naix being one of them) do not practically buy the relevant items for this. Yes, we did not consider this in our testing and is quite a good point, as well as a reasonable way to play against ursa. Back to some main points about void: Different carries work differently. I want to conceptualize a few things about the way some different carries work. AM- farm faster than your opponent carry, strong pusher and mobility carry, slightly better at killing teams than heroes, burst damage carry (blink ->abyssal ->manta->ult) medusa- teamfight space creator; attack move into a fight and hit everything in your aoe (the colo of dota kindof)--better at killing teams than killing one hero. Pl- teamfight space creator (illus zone many heroes out so fucking bad), better at killing team than any 1v1centric carries, also strong splitpusher; is bad at fighting directly against carries niax-- early-midgame tempo carry, can still go late. Burst damage carry. low mobility, good sustain in fights, weak to strong 1v1 heroes and -armor heroes or big physical damage. Specializes against high magic damages/stuns lineup (I could continue but I dont want to wall of text the shit out of you guys) Void: Potentially strongest 1v1, relies HEAVILY on chrono; positioning. Very difficult to go high ground with only void on your team (easy to spam things on void and initiate on him before he can chrono--almost makes aegis necessary or at least very attractive). Potential to teamwipe with just ulti placement. Great synergies with many offensive heroes. Easy to kite when bkb/chrono is down. (totally useless against halbard spam in ultralate game, also forcestaff spam. Doesnt build reliable disable usually (abyssal, hex). Farms at medium pace (if good start), slow otherwise. Highly item dependant. Arguably he is better at creating space in teamfights and killing a team rather than just 1 hero because of chrono and its usually critical application to win the fight. Bkb is almost necessary at reasonably high level games due to the fact that if he gets disabled during chrono, like 90% of his damage goes away. Also necessary to remove halbard and various other annoying things (sigil, other various slows, etc) Eternalenvy showed that another viable build on void is maskofmadness rush (with or without midas). I omitted this in my first post because I am very cautious to rate MoM on any hero as viable, but with proper positioning, as well as chrono usage EE has proven to me that this is a good way to build void. It is also the most fighting centric build as it doesnt offer the same farming advantages as others. I also believe manta (and yasha) is not a good item on void who requires bigger items faster (much similar to gyro) and giving him illusions holds little advantage because they are melee, and unlike antimage do not burn damage (unless you go for the ultra old diffusal build from back when you needed that first before manta). Furthermore void is not ranged, and already wants bkb, meaning that the defensive pseudo-purge from manta has overlap. Other items give better bonuses (baby crit+, maelstrom+, or even the old deso/vg build championed by babyknight of all people way back in the day with drayich's old new last dota 1 (?) team. Personally I rate midas/maelstrom as the best build because it is safer than MoM (pseudo-slow farm: spamming it to farm is required but it doesnt help you against bigger waves; very strong but very risky fighting) and provides better farming advantages (medium farm, medium+ fighting). The battlefury build is too slow for my taste (and imo the current metagame), which furthermore severely limits void's attack speed which is actually a critical part of his dps in the midgame. This build is too greedy (highest farm, lowest fighting). MoM does have some 'defensive' synergy with void (aoe you-will-not-be-doing-anything-for-x-seconds aka chrono + backtrack hack is op skill) as opposed to getting it on other heroes as a core item (in 99% of cases I believe it is bad, but is an amusing pubstomp item, as well as hilarious on sa in pubs or even potentially competitively---unsure due to sa's rarity) Also I want to note that the first post here that I made was in an older metagame and I made likewise comparisons. I think void currently is very unexplored in this metagame and is actually quite strong in this version and may even be rediscovered soon. Void + TC is actually the fucking dumbest most op fucking shit in all the land =)))) TC didnt exist in dota 2 when I made my first post. hilarious pub teams that might be worth trying: Warlock+void+tc+ds+naga | ||
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IcED Bk
Canada245 Posts
Good for involving team that have aoe like lich etc. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
Midas -> Armlet -> Maelstrom might be his safest and most flexible build. | ||
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Eriksen
Micronesia720 Posts
On November 27 2013 00:05 CosmicSpiral wrote: Backtrack only removes damage, not status effects. If your team relies on you for late game damage output, you absolutely need it. If you have Dark Seer-Jakiro, meh. How's S&Y on him? I'm itching for practical ways to improve his MS. I had never tried S&Y on Void, though I keep making Yasha onto Manta. To be honest I always build him using the old meta (replace MoM with Midas): Manta ; Mjollnir ; Butterfly ; Cuirass / Desolator / Skadi ; + Travel I may try BKB later, still curious with various builds actually. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 27 2013 15:11 Eriksen wrote: I had never tried S&Y on Void, though I keep making Yasha onto Manta. To be honest I always build him using the old meta (replace MoM with Midas): Manta ; Mjollnir ; Butterfly ; Cuirass / Desolator / Skadi ; + Travel I may try BKB later, still curious with various builds actually. I've never tried it either, mostly because it seems counter-intuitive on the surface. S&Y is not a late-game item and Void doesn't hit his peak around the time when you will assemble it; S&Y's base stats are pretty mediocre compared to what you could get for a little more money. But the Greater Maim passive should stack with Time Lock PRD and Void struggles to chase down wounded enemies without Time Walk. Why not try Midas -> Armlet -> Maelstrom -> Hyperstone -> Mjollnir/AC instead? | ||
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Eriksen
Micronesia720 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 27 2013 15:52 Eriksen wrote: Anyway, what is TC? I can't comprehend that acronym :O All I got is our Liquid's 1-spot player, which is also TC lol Dota 1 Tauren Chieftain = Dota 2 Elder Titan. | ||
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Eriksen
Micronesia720 Posts
On November 27 2013 15:40 CosmicSpiral wrote: I've never tried it either, mostly because it seems counter-intuitive on the surface. S&Y is not a late-game item and Void doesn't hit his peak around the time when you will assemble it. S&Y's base stats are pretty mediocre compared to what you could get for a little more money. Why not try Midas -> Armlet -> Maelstrom -> Hyperstone -> Mjollnir/AC instead? I find it strange if Void uses Armlet. I mean, I've used PA-Armlet in the past and it was outrageous (added with her massive critical output). But IMO, Void with Armlet would be very strange, in addition he doesn't have the lifesteal effect unless he bought one. I do understand it gives massive strength (health), damage, and IAS, but I can't say it will benefit Void. Yea I will give them a try. | ||
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
Why not try Midas -> Armlet -> Maelstrom -> Hyperstone -> Mjollnir/AC instead? nice idea. armlet looks like a good idea because you want to get the regen (helm of iron will) and you can fight earlier instead of getting battlefury (yuck). Threads is also important because you would want to switch to buy another timewalk/chrono at a crucial time. mine will go: Midas -> Armlet -> Power Threads ->crystalys -> whatever.. | ||
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rkffhk
474 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 27 2013 15:56 Eriksen wrote: I find it strange if Void uses Armlet. I mean, I've used PA-Armlet in the past and it was outrageous (added with her massive critical output). But IMO, Void with Armlet would be very strange, in addition he doesn't have the lifesteal effect unless he bought one. I do understand it gives massive strength (health), damage, and IAS, but I can't say it will benefit Void. Yea I will give them a try. With Void you can never give him exactly what he wants. He demands health, HP regen, damage, IAS, MS, a farming mechanism, and mana regeneration. Armlet gives him the first four and Unholy Strength toggle works wonderfully with level 4 Backtrack. The buildup gives you lane sustenance (HoIW) and the pieces are individually cheap, so there's little chance the progression gets thrown off. He can start to effectively jungle right after Armlet finishes. It's a stable compromise that doesn't force you to commit to a certain approach. On November 27 2013 19:21 Discarder wrote: nice idea. armlet looks like a good idea because you want to get the regen (helm of iron will) and you can fight earlier instead of getting battlefury (yuck). Threads is also important because you would want to switch to buy another timewalk/chrono at a crucial time. mine will go: Midas -> Armlet -> Power Threads ->crystalys -> whatever.. I assume Power Treads because it's standard on all FV builds. You only stay on Boots of Speed if you're rushing Battlefury. | ||
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idscy
United States256 Posts
On November 28 2013 03:02 CosmicSpiral wrote: With Void you can never give him exactly what he wants. He demands health, damage, IAS, MS, a farming mechanism, and mana regeneration. Armlet gives him the first three and Unholy Strength toggle works wonderfully with level 4 Backtrack. The buildup gives you lane sustenance (HoIW) and the pieces are individually cheap, so there's little chance the progression gets thrown off. He can start to effectively jungle right after Armlet finishes. It's a stable compromise that doesn't force you to commit to a certain approach. I assume Power Treads because it's standard on all FV builds. You only stay on Boots of Speed if you're rushing Battlefury. Firstly, on power treads: There has been a bit of a debate about antimage and battlefury which is a bit telling regarding the usefulness of power treads as a farming (and sustaining a la switching) tool. Classically the argument has been to 'always' rush battlefury, the -farming- item as fast as possible, going back for treads later. However due to the pace of the game becoming much faster... especially now with the first night coming at 4:00, it is MUCH riskier to sit around for the next 6-10 minutes in lane farming (although can still be done if picks, strategy, vision, dedicated babysit support, etc exist for you, but this is rarely the case nowerdays with more greedy and active support play, the 'position 4' has become a pseudo-core of sorts) So it seems like there would be some time where lots of enemies are off the map, antimage the highest priority target, etc... It then becomes not only prudent, but necessary for any high level antimage to get his ass into the woods. Farming the woods take a fucking long time if you have basic boots, quelling, maybe pms, and a perse. It goes MUCH faster when you have treads. Furthermore it is easier to pressure lanes with treads, and farm waves faster (allowing you to go back to the jungle), and you can even 'participate' in fights earlier with the added agi/health. So the theory is that getting treads before battlefury doesnt slow down your farm (you get them immediately after anyway) and allow you to be a bit more flexible than the classic afk farm antimage. This is entirely applicable to void--even moreso because am has a sick animation whereas void is slow. So that being said, power treads after midas seems optimal, obtaining your first core after this rather than keeping regular boots and 'rushing' the core item (theory holds that the timing doesnt change much on the item after the first core item if you go treads->core or core->treads BUT the former is much safer and more practical). On armlet: There are reasons this item appears attractive on void, but there are also numerous ones outlining why it is not. Firstly, void is a hero that is VERY strapped on items. The hero does not farm very quickly, and doesnt want to buy 'setup' items like drums because it severely delays his ability to have the teamfight impact he wants (read: get more than 4 attacks off during chrono before 20minutes). Therefore he requires the bigger items faster, or at least items which allow his ais to become usuable (MoM). This build midas->armlet->mael->dps item is simply WAY too slow to be applicable in contemporary comp dota, and is even a bit risky in pubs because you are waiting too long to get up any 'farming dps' item. Your bkb timing will be slower than if you went midas->treads->battlefury->X (bkb) or (eaglesong/hyperstone/baby crit/demon edge/deso/etc)->bkb because battlefury kills mad creeps while armlet lets you maybe not die once or twice when you would have with proper micro. Armlet is giving you meager damage output in a nonactive state, and its strength gain during active state is being almost totally wasted on void who is not a strength hero, so armlet is not amplifying his dps even close to the same level as it would a niax. While active: +31 damage, +10 attack speed, and +25 strength, 31 damage good, 10 attack speed okay, 25 str.........well maybe thats ok since void doesnt have much hp, but armlet is draining his limited hp pool and this str doesnt contribute to his damage (it does with ck, niax, alche, etc) While nonactive: +7 HP regeneration +9 Damage +5 Armor +15 Attack speed Compared to maelstrom (nonproccing) : +24 Damage +25 Attack speed okay so armlet is giving you more sustain with the armor and hp regen, but doesnt provide even close to the same passive damage/ais--things which void really needs. (void has reasonable sustain just from backtrack or even better if youre a hacking piece of shit like me :DDD) Getting midas->treads/armlet->treads/armlet->mael is more greedy than battlefury and your bkb timing is going to be very late unless lots of tower gold etc are coming in (that is a special case, if you team is winning so hard you can argue for a dagon, and this case is not relevant to our discussion). Furthermore I argue that MoM is strictly better than armlet. +100 attack speed and +30% movement speed but causes you to take extra 30% damage and 17% lifesteal The sustain away from fights is good (lifesteal) and the 100 attack speed is superior to both armlet and mael. The 30% extra damage is maybe a bit more severe than armlet's life drain, but armlet doesnt provide lifesteal. The idea is that MoM minimizes the time it takes void to fight (armlet still seems more of a transition item) while providing him passive sustain. It also relies a bit more on positioning and skill with chrono whereas armlet is more of a blunt object (I WILL HAVE 25 STR; I CHRONO WHERE I WANT------ BITCH) :D Well I didnt mean to make this into a wall of text but that happened anyway. Sorry guys. I have a bit more to say but ill stop here. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Honestly though, void is far more about having money and hitting chronospheres properly than he is about "specific" itemization. 20K worth of damage items on void is gonna win you the game, regardless of which items those are (within reason). Just buy whatever kinda fits in that game. If they have a ranged carry consider butterfly for example. If they have a PA or Brew you need to look at MKB. The hardest balance with void is determining when to buy defensive items (BKB, Satanic), when to buy hybrid items (Manta, butterfly, AC) and when to buy pure offensive items (Mjollnir, Daedalus, MoM). That basically relies upon what other disables your team has and what disables THEY have that you won't be able to chrono reliably. And what their damage looks like. | ||
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idscy
United States256 Posts
On November 28 2013 06:01 Sn0_Man wrote: Cosmic is obsessed with Armlet void for unknown reasons. Its clearly awful lol. Honestly though, void is far more about having money and hitting chronospheres properly than he is about "specific" itemization. 20K worth of damage items on void is gonna win you the game, regardless of which items those are (within reason). Just buy whatever kinda fits in that game. If they have a ranged carry consider butterfly for example. If they have a PA or Brew you need to look at MKB. The hardest balance with void is determining when to buy defensive items (BKB, Satanic), when to buy hybrid items (Manta, butterfly, AC) and when to buy pure offensive items (Mjollnir, Daedalus, MoM). That basically relies upon what other disables your team has and what disables THEY have that you won't be able to chrono reliably. And what their damage looks like. Pretty much correct. I would argue that butterfly is almost core for void (not as like the first item you get, but that he should get it at some point--- I prefer as the first item after whatever farming choice you select, MoM, mael, bfury. If evasion, mkb. Deadalus should be made regardless. Crit is very necessary for void to stay relevent. Upgrading maelstrom should be timed after you get first big pure damage item (mkb, bfly, crit) to maximize on dps. (getting it before tends not to be as effective (dps output)/(gold cost) AC is your luxury lategame item. Satanic+Buriza=best lategame dual items in the game. Satanic is your aegis on a 30 second cd (provided no disable) and buriza lets you do the damage to make this recovery relevant. Bkb I still think is going to be necessary at some point in almost 100% of games. You can get away without one in pubs for sure but at decent comp levels you want to not be hexed during chrono. :D | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Real men go boots mom 4x hyperstones tho :D | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 28 2013 06:01 Sn0_Man wrote: Cosmic is obsessed with Armlet void for unknown reasons. Its clearly awful lol. Honestly though, void is far more about having money and hitting chronospheres properly than he is about "specific" itemization. 20K worth of damage items on void is gonna win you the game, regardless of which items those are (within reason). Just buy whatever kinda fits in that game. If they have a ranged carry consider butterfly for example. If they have a PA or Brew you need to look at MKB. The hardest balance with void is determining when to buy defensive items (BKB, Satanic), when to buy hybrid items (Manta, butterfly, AC) and when to buy pure offensive items (Mjollnir, Daedalus, MoM). That basically relies upon what other disables your team has and what disables THEY have that you won't be able to chrono reliably. And what their damage looks like. I really do love the item and I don't understand the rationale of "it's awful" on him. He's not a strength hero so clearly he fails to get the sheer damage output that a Lifestealer would with toggle. That's not why you buy it though. There are plenty of good reasons to buy it; none of them are apparent if you buy into the traditional philosophy of "Void should only be built with DPS items". I should probably just explain all the reasons why I prefer Armlet/Maelstrom over all his other builds.
In short, I build Armlet because I want to safely reach the late game without completely relying on Chronosphere in the midgame. I don't put all my eggs in one basket during a fight and I have the luxury of being effective in more types of fights than with MoM. Overall the build is the most stable one I've found besides Battlefury, yet I don't have to demand 4 protect 1 for 25-35 minutes. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
If you feel like you are getting harassed unduly in lane, stats are better than backtrack for damage mitigation (after level 1 backtrack). Beyond that, if you are being harassed in lane then YES you have an issue but NO helm of iron will is not the way to fix it. Grab a poor mans shield. Ferry yourself a set of tangoes. Realize that without a free lane you probably shouldn't be playing void. Anyway, the deal is that armlet sucks mostly since it doesn't give you the damage to kill them in chrono and it doesn't give you the survivability to kill them out of chrono. The regen sucks compared to lifesteal (if you don't like mom go HoTD on the way to satanic) and hurting yourself makes it uniquely bad at farming since void lacks the kind of innate regen that most armlet heroes have. Void needs items that help him farm. Wodota armlet toggles got worse not better and are a terrible reason to use the item in the first place. Void doesn't need to extricate himself from fights at 1hp or whatever. Void needs ways to make sure the fight works out. I'd take blink dagger void over armlet void every time I think. At least theres a key reason why you would get blink (Better chronos that are harder to respond to). Armlet's just inefficient. ALL THAT SAID yeah whatever void works with most items. As long as you can keep farming most games armlet doesn't just lose you the game. Just be aware that it is STRICTLY suboptimal and realistically you shouldn't ever actually get it. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 28 2013 07:19 CosmicSpiral wrote: [*]Accommodates an early Hand of Midas. Midas + Battlefury delays your core items too much for my liking. Midas + MoM delays your fighting potential and the impact of +30 IAS diminishes just due to simple math. This is just wrong. I don't know if it's you that tried to convince people of Orchid Void, but the argument is essentially the same. You don't try to pair a hodgepodge of items that do different things to try and do everything well. You assess the needs of the particular game and get focused, sometimes lopsided item choices that suit those needs. If you need to fight, commit to fighting items. If you need to farm, commit to farming items. Midas + Armlet is just schizophrenic and bad because the Midas weakens your Armlet timing from the fact that it hasn't kicked in yet when you finish Armlet. In fact, this entire discussion seems like you're searching for a one-size-fits-all item that fits every possible scenario, when there is none. Every item seems imperfect and the ones that don't are just bad at everything so they seem well rounded. That's the depth of itemization in this game. You pick from items that are not well rounded to accomplish specific needs, and correctly assessing those needs in a particular game puts you ahead. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
Saying that Midas + MoM "delays your fighting potential" as Void is completely nuts and could hardly be farther from the truth. MoM is the best single early fighting item you can build on Void. Void's biggest problem early game is that he is not very threatening except in a supporty kind of way. MoM + Chronosphere makes him a legitimate threat from the moment he gets MoM. Armlet does give a very good all-around collection of stats, but it does not provide the level of threat that MoM does to let Void fight. Armlet + Chronosphere is not even comparable to MoM + Chronosphere. The regen is not very effective if you're using the armlet all the time (same as on almost every other hero) and really what results is that your non-toggled HP is always going to be well below 100%. MoM has you at 100% HP all the time if you're farming, and there's no reason not to spam the ability if you're just jungling. | ||
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