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On July 28 2016 15:00 Comeh wrote: idk it depends on the offlaner but most of the time i go 8 tango circlet/rop 4 branches. w/e ur all wrong get rop first u plebs
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thank you all for the help....now what do I do in a classic morphling vs AM matchup? I don't recall any recent meta where this MU consistently happened so I didn't really know what to do. Here's the matchid http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2538558432
Basically I had a really good start with me and AA zoning out Void and I hit my item timings really on point. Mid game we rolled them pretty hard, took mid rax and bottom range rax. I understood that as a morphling that's the window of opportunity to close out the game as that is when morphling is at the power peak(~30-35min, items linken+eb+ 1 more).
However due to some clowny plays and slight throwing we could not finish the game then and there. And that's where it hits me that I do not have a good understanding of the Morphling AM matchup. Seriously what the fuck do I do?
How do I itemize against AM? When I had eb+linkens he had bf+offering, I was doing my job picking off people with the shotgun combo, he was just jungling and split pushing(but always gets ganked by legion). I went mantas because I wanted to manta dodge Axe calls and also because that's usually what I go for next, then Skadi for more hp and stats But come late game I realized that EB+Manta+Skadi does nothing against AM. When it comes to manfighting we both pop manta and fight, maybe I combo him for about 1/3 of his HP then that's about it, I could never finish him off, and he couldn't really kill me as well. Once he went butterfly that was it, I couldn't stand up to him anymore.
Play-wise when it came to late game both of us were split pushing. I always used replicate on my teammate and used that to get around the map and make sure creep waves were in their half of the map. If I group up with my team and 5 man high ground, he's gonna split push. So I replicate my teammate to get back to my team but then a teamfight happens and I couldn't replicate on the AM.
Should I dissemble EB into a faster butterfly? But that would lose the shotgun combo and the kinda make it all pointless?
Was manta/Skadi necessary? Should I just go BKB+butterfly(without dissembling EB) after Linkens+eb and just try to end the game ?
Please help....
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On July 31 2016 16:22 Eetee wrote:thank you all for the help....now what do I do in a classic morphling vs AM matchup? I don't recall any recent meta where this MU consistently happened so I didn't really know what to do. Here's the matchid http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2538558432Basically I had a really good start with me and AA zoning out Void and I hit my item timings really on point. Mid game we rolled them pretty hard, took mid rax and bottom range rax. I understood that as a morphling that's the window of opportunity to close out the game as that is when morphling is at the power peak(~30-35min, items linken+eb+ 1 more). However due to some clowny plays and slight throwing we could not finish the game then and there. And that's where it hits me that I do not have a good understanding of the Morphling AM matchup. Seriously what the fuck do I do? How do I itemize against AM? When I had eb+linkens he had bf+offering, I was doing my job picking off people with the shotgun combo, he was just jungling and split pushing(but always gets ganked by legion). I went mantas because I wanted to manta dodge Axe calls and also because that's usually what I go for next, then Skadi for more hp and stats But come late game I realized that EB+Manta+Skadi does nothing against AM. When it comes to manfighting we both pop manta and fight, maybe I combo him for about 1/3 of his HP then that's about it, I could never finish him off, and he couldn't really kill me as well. Once he went butterfly that was it, I couldn't stand up to him anymore. Play-wise when it came to late game both of us were split pushing. I always used replicate on my teammate and used that to get around the map and make sure creep waves were in their half of the map. If I group up with my team and 5 man high ground, he's gonna split push. So I replicate my teammate to get back to my team but then a teamfight happens and I couldn't replicate on the AM. Should I dissemble EB into a faster butterfly? But that would lose the shotgun combo and the kinda make it all pointless? Was manta/Skadi necessary? Should I just go BKB+butterfly(without dissembling EB) after Linkens+eb and just try to end the game ? Please help.... item wise - dont get a skadi vs am. Ever. On any hero. vs am, you will likely need a bkb, butterfly, or a mkb (two of those three. In fihgts, you are typically better off not man fighting the am and kill the supports with ur eblade or some other core. If you can help to save replicate for fights (you typically can't), save it and make one of am - it helps. in that game you needed a bkb and mkb instead of skadi (manta is fine). Keep the eblade, you just have to learn around fighting against am. Takes practice, and you have to keep farming if there is no opportunity to push.
thing about morph is that he fights much better than am does early on, so if your team is playing agressive and pushing down towers (which they should b edoing vs am around 10-12 mins), then join them if you can help it, or take down t1 + t2 of your safelane.
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Thanks...that game was a really tough call. There was axe call and Void chrono which makes bkb useless...But I also needed bkb for invoker and disruptor...
But I think I got it..against AM less stats padding more manfighting items.
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On July 31 2016 16:59 Eetee wrote: Thanks...that game was a really tough call. There was axe call and Void chrono which makes bkb useless...But I also needed bkb for invoker and disruptor...
But I think I got it..against AM less stats padding more manfighting items. having +int items is literally counter productive vs am, so try not to do that when possible
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On July 31 2016 17:00 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2016 16:59 Eetee wrote: Thanks...that game was a really tough call. There was axe call and Void chrono which makes bkb useless...But I also needed bkb for invoker and disruptor...
But I think I got it..against AM less stats padding more manfighting items. having +int items is literally counter productive vs am, so try not to do that when possible
Yeah but the thing is he gets all ur mana which is super important to morphling...I get that you don't want to have a huge mana pool for the mana void bomb...but your shotgun combo doesn't really hurt him
I'll just get a quick mkb/butterfly next time, I think 1 of those 2 is minimum to fight am
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you'll probably end up farming in the same lane as AM at some point. there's a blurry point where if he's slowed down slightly through the early game and then ends up getting contested a bit later, it wastes an important chunk of the player's time on that hero.
they may be forced to build an early headdress, a completed vanguard (you'll be able to tell from if he finishes the PMS early in lane) or just dawdle around in jungle camps with RoH. when you end up in the same lane, little to no risk to you, just walk up and place AM's replicate on himself. this isn't an insignificant nuisance and depending on the player, it might just force him to wane off pressuring a lane to blink into jungle instead. each time you do this, he has to spend 10 seconds or more to deal with the illusion that he doesn't want to deal with. now he can't come to ganks or fights with no mana. he can farm creeps though. that's great, you know where he is exactly.
if you've got linkens eblade before he has manta, that's great imo. you're ahead by a good margin. and because you're ahead, you can fight earlier than he can. i would have made bkb or butterfly instead most of the time. imo, there's nothing wrong with skadi if you've got a teamfight plan from start to finish and it involves the slow with 450 more HP. that's not the plan for AM, that's the plan for the rest of his team.
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Ya don't go skadi this is pretty much the only time u want butterfly on morph. Am does not / can't afford to go mkb in a tight game.
Also 30 mins is the window where am is at his peak, not morph. Don't feel like you have to end the game. If you itemize properly linkens/shotgun/manta/butterfly/satanic or bkb, and you use replicate well, you can fight him late
You want to avoid mana pool items beyond linkens (can't mana void/abyssal as ez) and manta (sieging tool). Mana burn in to void is his only play against you but it's a strong one and will kill you mid game
Also be aware of ur team mates mana pool and keep your distance. I have died frustratingly to an ally mana void when I'm on full agi despite being far far ahead
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the biggest advantage of morph that i haven't seen mentioned here is role versatility. they fifth pick AM while you still have a pick? Why not just pick a hero like Sven that shitstomps AM throughout the game and go support morphling (itself a counter to AM).
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On August 01 2016 08:29 juracule wrote: the biggest advantage of morph that i haven't seen mentioned here is role versatility. they fifth pick AM while you still have a pick? Why not just pick a hero like Sven that shitstomps AM throughout the game and go support morphling (itself a counter to AM). Cause honestly support morph is a bit stretchy and unless you waveform from trees or get blink, you'll never stun am before he gets blink out or just mantadodges adaptive strike. Add to that that morph needs levels to do stuff and can't really pressure am in the laning stage and I'm not convinced support morph is anywhere near being a counter.
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I'm sure against AM you get an early dragon lance and tp to his lane when you are level 9, not much he can do about that. Also fast butterfly is really good against AM, sometimes I skip eblade in this matchup for a straight butterfly if there aren't any other decent eblade targets. Don't get skadi it won't help you manfight AM and just makes you a juicy target for mana void. If your team has a couple of stunners you are fine playing ultra lategame, with satanic+bkb+replicate he loses the manfight advantage and you have the mobility to deal with his rat dota.
Also a cheesy tactic if you are having trouble catching a ratting AM is to morph strength so that you get the full duration stun, stun him then morph agi and hope your allies back you up to finish the job.
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On August 01 2016 11:06 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 08:29 juracule wrote: the biggest advantage of morph that i haven't seen mentioned here is role versatility. they fifth pick AM while you still have a pick? Why not just pick a hero like Sven that shitstomps AM throughout the game and go support morphling (itself a counter to AM). Cause honestly support morph is a bit stretchy and unless you waveform from trees or get blink, you'll never stun am before he gets blink out or just mantadodges adaptive strike. Add to that that morph needs levels to do stuff and can't really pressure am in the laning stage and I'm not convinced support morph is anywhere near being a counter.
A support morph should get lvl 5 at about 5 or 6 mins in, which is really all he needs as it is already a 3.25s stun at that point. This timing is still squarely in the laning stage. Most AMs won't have a manta before 20 mins. And if the enemy AM has to save his Manta and his blink for my 4.25s stun hows he ever gonna kill anyone? Morphling can also Waveform from fog so you better have some quick reaction times.
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i'd like to see you manta dodge adaptive strike, hahaha. if by dodge you mean hoping he chooses the illusion, then totally.
i'd also like to see a legit morphling support game the way you describe. personally and truthfully i'd barf if i had someone in the 6k+ range picking and playing the hero to be a 3, 4 or a 5. maaaybe offlane if there's a drow on the team and playing against solo LD or something.
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On August 02 2016 01:06 nanaoei wrote: i'd like to see you manta dodge adaptive strike, hahaha. if by dodge you mean hoping he chooses the illusion, then totally.
i'd also like to see a legit morphling support game the way you describe. personally and truthfully i'd barf if i had someone in the 6k+ range picking and playing the hero to be a 3, 4 or a 5. maaaybe offlane if there's a drow on the team and playing against solo LD or something.
you just go cliffjungle with him for 5 mins and in return you get a stunbot. Dunno why you barf at a 4.25s stun every 10s. even if they try to mess with you with a riki or whatever who cares - this means that riki is not bothering your mid or your offlaner. All you need is lvl 5 really and you're nearly completely item-independent. clan_iraq has made a more thorough guide to supp morphling.
I just played a game with a supp morphling at ~5.4k, although he didn't itemize or play like i would.
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On August 02 2016 01:06 nanaoei wrote: i'd like to see you manta dodge adaptive strike, hahaha. if by dodge you mean hoping he chooses the illusion, then totally.
i'd also like to see a legit morphling support game the way you describe. personally and truthfully i'd barf if i had someone in the 6k+ range picking and playing the hero to be a 3, 4 or a 5. maaaybe offlane if there's a drow on the team and playing against solo LD or something. lol just by saying you can't manta dodge adaptive strike you tell us how bad you are i've seen plenty of 6k+ support/offlane morph and played a couple of myself. Works totally fine.
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Yeah I can see him work as a 3 or greedy pos 4 who aoe-nukes jungle stacks, I just don't see him do much vs am either way until you have blink, which is likely after am got manta.
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Manta dodging adaptive is the easiest thing in the world wat. big slow easy to see projectile
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Support morph is legit, but you need a good team to capitalize on your stun. Help setup Pudge hooks, arrows, sky ulti etc. Otherwise you'd feel a severe lack of damage.
Support morph timing is also kinda too late to counter AM.
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The way Wings used support morph against OG (Miracle AM) is a great, although not likely repeatable, example if you're looking for how to do it. That team had stuns for days and was so well coordinated..again, not your standard issue pub.
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Support Morph is great if, and this is a big if, you can get through the laning stage.
You're awful at harassing offlaners. You're awful at zoning. You cant use the jungle. You cant roam. You can pretty much stack, pull, soak exp. Which is absolutely fine if your safelane is secure and your mid is ok. But there will also be those pub games where you have a WK carry against a timber offlane. Or you're up against a strong duo offlane. And you're supposed to secure WK his farm. Which.... wont go well.
Support/offlane morph really needs lvl 5 before hes a hero, preferably lvl 7 since thats when his stun is maxed. Offlane is the safer choice for that reason. You're "supposed to" lose the offlane, so sitting there soaking exp while being hard to kill with waveform is fine. As support you cant just always sit and leach exp from a lane and be fine, as offlane you can most of the time.
That said, if you can get through those early levels its probably preferable with sup morph over offlane. Neither will scale well and both will buy utility stuff. The offlane version will get slightly more and get items slightly faster, but thats really not game breaking. Its better you're sup and you have a somewhat better scaling offlaners in that case. But remember the big if.
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