It's said that a centaur's road is paved with the corpses of the fallen. For the one called Warrunner, it has been a long road indeed. To outsiders, the four-legged clans of Druud are often mistaken for simple, brutish creatures. Their language has no written form; their culture lacks pictographic traditions, structured music, formalized religion. For centaurs, combat is the perfect articulation of thought, the highest expression of self. If killing is an art among centaurs, then Bradwarden the Warrunner is their greatest artist. He rose to dominance on the proving grounds of Omexe, an ancient arena where centaur clans have for millennia gathered to perform their gladiatorial rights. As his fame spread, spectators came from far and wide to see the great centaur in action. Always the first to step into the arena, and the last to leave, he composes a masterpiece in each guttering spray, each thrust of blood-slickened blade-length. It is the poetry of blood on steel, flung in complex patterns across the pale sands of the killing floor. Warrunner defeated warrior after warrior, until the arena boomed with the cheering of his name, and he found himself alone, the uncontested champion of his kind. The great belt of Omexe was bestowed, wrapped around his broad torso, but in his victory, the death-artist found only emptiness. For what is a warrior without a challenge? The great centaur galloped out of Omexe that day with a new goal. To his people, Warrunner is the greatest warrior to ever step into the arena. Now he has set out to prove he is the greatest fighter who has ever lived.
So with the increased popularity of this hero, let's get some discussion going.
He's currently mainly being played as a solo offlane in the pro scene, but I feel he's actually strongest in a dual offlane. With partners such as Lich (shoutout to team Page 1) he can absolutely crush the enemy safelane farmer. Another partner I think he'd be really strong with is CM through pure nuke damage.
Items? Blink is obvious. Mek is good but I feel you need Arcanes to be able to support it. Blademail and Heavens Halberd are other situationally strong choices. I've never seen anyone build Necro 3 on him but I think it could be strong, but you could say that for almost any hero out there. Heart/AC/Sheep are obvious luxuries.
I've seen him played extremely effectively as a smoke ganker early game with first item boots into tranqs. Using the high hp to run onto lane from behind the enemy heroes and the high burst damage from his W to nuke them when supported by any hero on lane with a good high damage spell.
The problem with Centaur dual off-lane is that while he's good in 2v2s, he's not really a hero that creates more pressure 2v3 than 1v3. There are some heroes that can do this especially when paired with strong defensive supports (the obvious one being Phoenix, but this is also true of heroes like Windrunner and Clockwerk).
Centaur's primary strength in even lanes is his disable and burst damage, but in a 2v3 these aren't useful advantages given how low range his skills are.
EDIT: Centaur is also quite good mid. While not exceptional as a laner, he's somewhat like a mid Tiny in that the early level advantage presents a large solo kill threat against many heroes on the map--on top of which, Centaur has a global ultimate that also comes into play earlier with the level advantage.
On April 10 2014 03:53 TheYango wrote: The problem with Centaur dual off-lane is that while he's good in 2v2s, he's not really a hero that creates more pressure 2v3 than 1v3. There are some heroes that can do this especially when paired with strong defensive supports (the obvious one being Phoenix, but this is also true of heroes like Windrunner and Clockwerk).
Centaur's primary strength in even lanes is his disable and burst damage, but in a 2v3 these aren't useful advantages given how low range his skills are.
EDIT: Centaur is also quite good mid. While not exceptional as a laner, he's somewhat like a mid Tiny in that the early level advantage presents a large solo kill threat against many heroes on the map--on top of which, Centaur has a global ultimate that also comes into play earlier with the level advantage.
Take this with a grain of salt (Please), but I've had a lot of success with this hero 2v3 in pubs with another nuking stunner that's also tanky. Just being able to get in the face of the trilane and take out any hero that overextends is very nice.
In professional play, probably wouldn't work - this hero is really strong in the offlane in that he's really difficult to harass out of because he can trade harassment so successfully due to return.
Items? Blink is obvious. Mek is good but I feel you need Arcanes to be able to support it. Blademail and Heavens Halberd are other situationally strong choices. I've never seen anyone build Necro 3 on him but I think it could be strong, but you could say that for almost any hero out there. Heart/AC/Sheep are obvious luxuries.
In terms of items, I've seen a lot of pros favor Hood of Defiance on him, sometimes even before blink. The extra magic resist helps mitigate his double-edge self-damage, and it can be built into a pipe later.
As far as skill-build goes, what do you guys like (offlane)? I've preferred a casual point in return early on, but I've seen a lot of pro-games skip return all together and favor maxing stomp and double-edge quickly.
Items? Blink is obvious. Mek is good but I feel you need Arcanes to be able to support it. Blademail and Heavens Halberd are other situationally strong choices. I've never seen anyone build Necro 3 on him but I think it could be strong, but you could say that for almost any hero out there. Heart/AC/Sheep are obvious luxuries.
In terms of items, I've seen a lot of pros favor Hood of Defiance on him, sometimes even before blink. The extra magic resist helps mitigate his double-edge self-damage, and it can be built into a pipe later.
As far as skill-build goes, what do you guys like (offlane)? I've preferred a casual point in return early on, but I've seen a lot of pro-games skip return all together and favor maxing stomp and double-edge quickly.
i would only get points in return if you can comfortably 1v2 that lane. otherwise you're missing out on damage for when your supports / mid rotate and gank (or when you gank).
Items? Blink is obvious. Mek is good but I feel you need Arcanes to be able to support it. Blademail and Heavens Halberd are other situationally strong choices. I've never seen anyone build Necro 3 on him but I think it could be strong, but you could say that for almost any hero out there. Heart/AC/Sheep are obvious luxuries.
In terms of items, I've seen a lot of pros favor Hood of Defiance on him, sometimes even before blink. The extra magic resist helps mitigate his double-edge self-damage, and it can be built into a pipe later.
As far as skill-build goes, what do you guys like (offlane)? I've preferred a casual point in return early on, but I've seen a lot of pro-games skip return all together and favor maxing stomp and double-edge quickly.
i would only get points in return if you can comfortably 1v2 that lane. otherwise you're missing out on damage for when your supports / mid rotate and gank (or when you gank).
2/2/1 is just fine. If they auto attack you 3 times you about break even missing the extra point in Double Edge. It's too useful not to take a point in lane unless it's a lane that won't be hitting you for some reason.
Return is also taken at the point where you transition into farming because it's quite efficient for helping you clear jungle camps. In a reasonably good early game, you won't do this because it's a sizable loss of burst damage, but it can be the case where you just need to farm.
On April 10 2014 03:53 TheYango wrote: The problem with Centaur dual off-lane is that while he's good in 2v2s, he's not really a hero that creates more pressure 2v3 than 1v3. There are some heroes that can do this especially when paired with strong defensive supports (the obvious one being Phoenix, but this is also true of heroes like Windrunner and Clockwerk).
Centaur's primary strength in even lanes is his disable and burst damage, but in a 2v3 these aren't useful advantages given how low range his skills are.
EDIT: Centaur is also quite good mid. While not exceptional as a laner, he's somewhat like a mid Tiny in that the early level advantage presents a large solo kill threat against many heroes on the map--on top of which, Centaur has a global ultimate that also comes into play earlier with the level advantage.
I feel like you're really underestimating exactly how much pressure can be applied 2v3 with him +1. He's already amazingly hard to harass out of lane, but unless you get pretty lucky (or the opponent misplays) you don't have a lot of kill potential in a 1v3. In 2v3 you can force your opponents to have to babysit the carry or else he will 100% die repeatedly because with any kind of slow/stun initiation on the enemy it's practically a guaranteed kill.
The part I think you're going wrong with is that you're considering defensive supports when he really doesn't need much help surviving. The key is to have an aggressive support that relies on centaur being a meat shield to protect them while they harass down the enemy carry.
On April 10 2014 08:05 B1nary wrote: Why tranquil boots instead of phase/treads/arcanes? The +armor is nice but you're rarely idle long enough for the passive regen to kick in, right?
You absolutely 100% need a way to offset the continous damage you'll be taking from duoble edge. Be it team fights, ganks or just DE's for farm. Tranq is just the easiest and cheapest way to get one most of the time in a lane when your farm wont be amazing. If you for whatever reason find yourself in 1v1 matchups because either teams run aggressive tri's you might consider taking other routes imo, most likely hood->blink. But for just about every typical offlane situation you'll delay blink a bit too much if you try to go greedy and go like hood->blink or so.
Honestly even in cases you can get away with not going tranqs i kinda feel you're better off leaving the boots unupgraded until eventually travels, though that might definitely be up for discussion.
On April 10 2014 08:29 Kreb wrote: Honestly even in cases you can get away with not going tranqs i kinda feel you're better off leaving the boots unupgraded until eventually travels, though that might definitely be up for discussion.
After your initial engagement, subsequent Stomps become much easier in fights if you have a movespeed advantage over other heroes. This is the draw of both Tranquils and Phase, and which heavily discourages leaving just Brown Boots, unless you're specifically in the kind of game where fights are decided before the second round of spells.
Also, Urn is probably the best alternative regen source to Tranquils, though it demands heavy fight participation to get a stack of Urn charges going.
One trick that I haven't see any team abuse yet is to 5 stack a jungle hard camp and then clear it with Smoke+Double Edge spam for a faster blink.
The other trick that is being used situationally is to drop tranquils ->hit by neutrals + double edge to kill them -> pickup tranquils (although it's more of an item specific trick, it's very viable on Centaur because 400 damage double edge just insta clears most jungle camps).
On April 10 2014 08:41 TheYango wrote: Also, Urn is probably the best alternative regen source to Tranquils, though it demands heavy fight participation to get a stack of Urn charges going.
The thing with hood though is that its absolutely amazing buildup to it during the lane. In many 1v1 matchups, especially against other melees, picking up the 3 regen components for hood as first 3 items can give you a massive advantage (or lessen the disadvantage) compared to both tranqs and Urn. Or compared to just about anything. Hitting people for casual 325 damage DE's at lvl 5 and not care about the self damage because you're back to full health in ~25sec is great fun! =)
On April 10 2014 09:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Why do people go Tranquils on this guy? I am just curious about the answer I would go treads
Unless you're fed enough to transition into a physical damage lategame, Treads waste a lot of gold on a low-value stat.
Even if Tranquils stay deactivated most of the time, Tranquils provides armor and MS (both valuable stats for Centaur) at competitive amounts for it to be well worth it.
On April 10 2014 08:41 TheYango wrote: Also, Urn is probably the best alternative regen source to Tranquils, though it demands heavy fight participation to get a stack of Urn charges going.
The thing with hood though is that its absolutely amazing buildup to it during the lane. In many 1v1 matchups, especially against other melees, picking up the 3 regen components for hood as first 3 items can give you a massive advantage (or lessen the disadvantage) compared to both tranqs and Urn. Or compared to just about anything. Hitting people for casual 325 damage DE's at lvl 5 and not care about the self damage because you're back to full health in ~25sec is great fun! =)
The 3 regen components also give you no fighting power. 1500+ gold in regen feels satisfying in lane, but is a recipe for disaster entering fights compared to 1500 gold in items that give combat stats/utility.
On April 10 2014 09:58 TheYango wrote: The 3 regen components also give you no fighting power. 1500+ gold in regen feels satisfying in lane, but is a recipe for disaster entering fights compared to 1500 gold in items that give combat stats/utility.
Personal preference maybe, but I'd definitely argue you're better off with those 1500g into regen because you're only another 550g away from a really good fighting item. And on top of that an item you'll get eventually anyway 90% of the times or more. It's not like you're completely taking a new route to get your items, you're rather taking a shortcut. If anything going Urn feels like an itemization detour since its about the same cost as tranqs.
We are, after all, talking about situations where you can afford to play greedy (which probably happens less than 10% of the games), but if you wanna exploit your unexpected farm potential you dont wanna take detours, you wanna take shortcuts. Thats on top of the laning power all the regen gives you.
Im interested to know what people think about the not so common item builds on him. Veil of discord seems to be almost a core item as its good in pretty much every situation on him. The item buildup is amazing and relevant bonuses are better than on any other hero that would build veil. So far for offlane centaur Ive been getting tranquils>cloak>blink>hood>veil>blademail on him. Ive seen force staff being built on him and it seems weird as its more of a support item that would be used on your team more than yourself, since you already get blink and a mobility skill. He doesnt need mana that much either. Ive theorycrafted linkens as a possible hood alternative (that is if it still blocks your own recoil like it used to at one point) as it has other uses as well, in which case eblade might work situationally. Ive seen armlet being built on him, without even a cloak it feels like you can sustain your hp after using double edge very well with this item. Might be a great item to rush in a farming role even before blink. Also bkb > heart in most situations.
On April 10 2014 14:18 NeoRussia wrote: Im interested to know what people think about the not so common item builds on him. Veil of discord seems to be almost a core item as its good in pretty much every situation on him. The item buildup is amazing and relevant bonuses are better than on any other hero that would build veil. So far for offlane centaur Ive been getting tranquils>cloak>blink>hood>veil>blademail on him. Ive seen force staff being built on him and it seems weird as its more of a support item that would be used on your team more than yourself, since you already get blink and a mobility skill. He doesnt need mana that much either. Ive theorycrafted linkens as a possible hood alternative (that is if it still blocks your own recoil like it used to at one point) as it has other uses as well, in which case eblade might work situationally. Ive seen armlet being built on him, without even a cloak it feels like you can sustain your hp after using double edge very well with this item. Might be a great item to rush in a farming role even before blink. Also bkb > heart in most situations.
I'm not so sure about BKB vs Heart. BKB is good if you want to be able to avoid spells and reliably dish out damage. Centaur strikes me as the kind of hero that is meant to tank the blows and spells, allowing your primary damage dealer to do his thing. You want a Heart to survive that.
On April 10 2014 08:41 TheYango wrote: Also, Urn is probably the best alternative regen source to Tranquils, though it demands heavy fight participation to get a stack of Urn charges going.
The thing with hood though is that its absolutely amazing buildup to it during the lane. In many 1v1 matchups, especially against other melees, picking up the 3 regen components for hood as first 3 items can give you a massive advantage (or lessen the disadvantage) compared to both tranqs and Urn. Or compared to just about anything. Hitting people for casual 325 damage DE's at lvl 5 and not care about the self damage because you're back to full health in ~25sec is great fun! =)
The 3 regen components also give you no fighting power. 1500+ gold in regen feels satisfying in lane, but is a recipe for disaster entering fights compared to 1500 gold in items that give combat stats/utility.
The obvious question then is, what kind of combat stats/utility can you really get for 1500 gold that will make that much of a difference. Since alot of Centaurs fighting power is in direct correlation with his current hp (at least if he likes to live), making sure his hp is always high seems like a good idea if you want to fight that early. His damage output will be pretty much the same regardless what items he gets around the 1500 price range, so you might as well buy the regen items since you are most likely going to buy a pipe eventually. And all this doesn't really matter if you "need" to get blink first.
On April 10 2014 08:41 TheYango wrote: Also, Urn is probably the best alternative regen source to Tranquils, though it demands heavy fight participation to get a stack of Urn charges going.
The thing with hood though is that its absolutely amazing buildup to it during the lane. In many 1v1 matchups, especially against other melees, picking up the 3 regen components for hood as first 3 items can give you a massive advantage (or lessen the disadvantage) compared to both tranqs and Urn. Or compared to just about anything. Hitting people for casual 325 damage DE's at lvl 5 and not care about the self damage because you're back to full health in ~25sec is great fun! =)
The 3 regen components also give you no fighting power. 1500+ gold in regen feels satisfying in lane, but is a recipe for disaster entering fights compared to 1500 gold in items that give combat stats/utility.
The obvious question then is, what kind of combat stats/utility can you really get for 1500 gold that will make that much of a difference. Since alot of Centaurs fighting power is in direct correlation with his current hp (at least if he likes to live), making sure his hp is always high seems like a good idea if you want to fight that early. His damage output will be pretty much the same regardless what items he gets around the 1500 price range, so you might as well buy the regen items since you are most likely going to buy a pipe eventually. And all this doesn't really matter if you "need" to get blink first.
I don't know why need is in quotes. Centaur needs a blink. Every time centaur is picked, it's for reliable initiation coming from the offlaner.
If a centaur on my team finished a hood before a blink, I would not be a happy camper. Centaur hits crazy effectiveness in the early / mid game, and any item that isn't a blink takes away from that advantage.
If you are winning your offlane matchup ( one on one I suppose) it is better for your team if you just save for the blink. Tranquils buildup gives you all the sustain you need for laning until 6.
It's also worth mentioning that centaur doesn't need tons of hp like traditional man-mode initiators early because he is almost entirely burst. Fights should end quickly early game. Itemize to take advantage of that
On April 10 2014 15:13 Firebolt145 wrote: I'm not so sure about BKB vs Heart. BKB is good if you want to be able to avoid spells and reliably dish out damage. Centaur strikes me as the kind of hero that is meant to tank the blows and spells, allowing your primary damage dealer to do his thing. You want a Heart to survive that.
BKB has two major applications:
1) If you need to be able to reliable engage and stay on strong back-line heroes and force them out of the fight rather than just eating damage and manfighting frontline heroes
2) If you end up being super fed and have to transition into a physical damage lategame.
First one depends on the heroes in the game, and can reasonably happen with high damage/impact backline heroes that you staying on and forcing away from the fight will limit their effectiveness (e.g. AA, Skywrath, Zeus, etc.). Second is a non-ideal scenario but does happen in pubs when you get a ton of kills while your teammates are dying.
That said, BKB and Heart are almost never in contention with one another because if BKB is needed, it will usually be by 2nd or 3rd item when you are considering it, while Heart's heavy buildup generally makes it a pickup on your last few slots.
On April 10 2014 17:46 BigO wrote: The obvious question then is, what kind of combat stats/utility can you really get for 1500 gold that will make that much of a difference.
Urn? Wand? Cloak rather than regen first for Pipe? Headdress which STILL builds into Pipe but has superior cost-effectiveness compared to double RoR AND doesn't hog 2 slots?
So, what do you guys think about manta as luxury (ultra late game luxury even) on him? As far as i tested manta illusions of him due to return are insanely good at destroying towers and split pushing, just send them ahead of creep wave.
On April 13 2014 04:29 lolfail9001 wrote: So, what do you guys think about manta as luxury (ultra late game luxury even) on him? As far as i tested manta illusions of him due to return are insanely good at destroying towers and split pushing, just send them ahead of creep wave.
If you can get a manta after all your core stuff you're so far ahead it hardly matters what you get Either way, boots blink pipe blademail heart, I suppose manta wouldn't be horrible but I think I'd still rather have an AC. Or for my carry to have all that farm instead
On April 16 2014 21:57 BadAim wrote: I'd like an explaination on why tranqs are good on him please
They're a great laning item, and they give pretty ridiculous movespeed (+90) as long as you don't break them by attacking/getting attacked, so you can use them to chase down a hero and stomp, which is something centaur desperately needs before blink, because all his abilities are very close ranged. Most of your damage should come from stomp/double edge anyway. They also offer the most movespeed out of any boots (not including bots) even when broken, meaning for max speed its either tranqus or phase.
So what do you guys think of veil of discord on him? Is it good, y/n? Centaur has a lot of magical aoe and the stats are very relevant for him, but I haven't seen anybody but me build it.
On April 16 2014 21:57 BadAim wrote: I'd like an explaination on why tranqs are good on him please
Tranquils are incredibly cost effective. They are the second fastest boots on the map, the armor is nice in general and extremely good on a high hp (relatively) low armor hero like centaur, and most important of all tranqs regen is incredibly high, which is very much needed if you want to use double edge more often and good for an offlaner in general.
I feel that the main reason for tranqs over arcanes or phase is the regen, allowing you to use double edge more freely.
Anybody else sold on mek? I guess blink->mek on the offlaner delays mek quite a lot, which might be a big minus, but stats, armor, regen and burst heal makes it really good on a hero like centaur. Also centaur has a lot of mobility, especially with blink dagger which is always nice for mek.
Also casual cloak>>>>>hood in 9/10 situations. Tranqs should be enough for regen.
On April 17 2014 01:15 Erasme wrote: no i think theres a lot of items more important than veil on him
I would never buy it in a pro game, but when you are in a pub, playing duals and the cent gets the farm, why not after blink to gank a lot.
Because by your 2nd major item, you're looking at a period of the game where amplifying your magical burst alone is not really the most effective thing to do. While Veil might overall be effective based on your team, most teams that have enough magic damage to warrant a Veil also have a better Veil carrier than Centaur.
Honestly if you get exceptionally farmed on Centaur, it's much smoother to make the transition into a physical damage lategame with items like BKB, S&Y, and AC. If you're not exceptionally farmed, then more survivability-focused team items like Mek and Pipe do better for you.
On April 17 2014 01:48 Blackfeather wrote: I feel that the main reason for tranqs over arcanes or phase is the regen, allowing you to use double edge more freely.
Phase is much better out of mid or safelane, because it enhances your burst damage in a Stampede+Stomp+DE+autoattacks combo, which allows you to present a stronger solo-kill threat. Out of off-lane (whether solo or dual) farm/levels you don't threaten enough heroes typically for this to be relevant unless you got a 1v1 matchup or a lot of kills.
Anybody but me sold on mek? I guess blink->mek on the offlaner delays mek quite a lot, which might be a big minus, but stats, armor, regen and burst heal makes it really good on a hero like centaur. Also centaur has a lot of mobility, especially with blink dagger which is always nice for mek.
if i can get away with it, ie team has good initiation already and i will have space to farm without fucking our late game carries, i just go retard strength tank. tranquil->hood->vanguard->armlet->halberd->heart->pt (tp is lame, centaur must charge manly like across the field of battle)-> sell vanguard for cuirass -> sell hood for heart2
things that happen with this build: -their snowballing antimage finds me alone farming creeps. he hits me until he dies, i laugh while i dont die -they get a sick initiation with epicenter, burrowstrike, meteor, EMP, cold snap, forge spirits and a carry beating my ass, when i wake up i laugh and charge away. 5 seconds later i come back with my team and they do their stuff while i dont die -i manfight a naix which lets him have full hp until i have 10% left, timely armlet toggle and assistance from team, he dies, i laugh, he RQ, i dont die -i wade into their fountain with my trustworthy drow behind me, they stun me for ten seconds in there, they all die, i walk away laughing and not dying
how is vanguard compared to just saving up for AC? AC seems like a much better choice on carry centaur especially when you have generally low armour as a STR hero and your passive does physical. I'm not sure how it interacts comparatively with lifestealer either.
They're for totally different scenarios. AC is a powerful item when completed but has an awful buildup through underwhelming individual parts. Vanguard conversely gets weaker in a long game, but is quite strong immediately, is very cheap, and builds through components that are individually very good.
On September 17 2014 10:00 Torte de Lini wrote: What do you guys think about going BKB after Blink Dagger? Too expensive to be an alternative to Hood of Defiance or?
I like going Blink, BKB into Halberd to start building some Strength and offer more utility.
Who says you need to get a hood? Only fixed item on centaur is blink, and that you must rush it. After that you get what you need. Halberd force dagon pipe mek shiva ac bkb. Depends on the game.
An urn instead of pipe to rush a bkb? Urn is nice for spamming more double edges too, its less expensive & online earlier but you need to be active & succesfull, else no charges.
On September 17 2014 10:00 Torte de Lini wrote: What do you guys think about going BKB after Blink Dagger? Too expensive to be an alternative to Hood of Defiance or?
I like going Blink, BKB into Halberd to start building some Strength and offer more utility.
Who says you need to get a hood? Only fixed item on centaur is blink, and that you must rush it. After that you get what you need. Halberd force dagon pipe mek shiva ac bkb. Depends on the game.
Because hood makes you take alot less damage from your double edge, which in returns makes you a huge force to be reckoned with. Without the hood taking two double edge self damage in a teamfight means you are basically dead.
Also Building it into a pipe is kinda a substitute for a BKB, not exactly the same but your HP pool should be so massive that a bkb is not really needed. Also pipe does not go down in duration, so it stays effective longer. Nukes don't really go up ( with the except few from heroes that naturally build E-blades )
I personally think if you need a bkb on centaur, you picked him in the wrong lineup. Ofcourse in really specific lineups where captains have a strong 3 core bkb timing in mind it's different, but you can count those games on 1 hand
On September 17 2014 10:00 Torte de Lini wrote: What do you guys think about going BKB after Blink Dagger? Too expensive to be an alternative to Hood of Defiance or?
I like going Blink, BKB into Halberd to start building some Strength and offer more utility.
Who says you need to get a hood? Only fixed item on centaur is blink, and that you must rush it. After that you get what you need. Halberd force dagon pipe mek shiva ac bkb. Depends on the game.
Because hood makes you take alot less damage from your double edge, which in returns makes you a huge force to be reckoned with. Without the hood taking two double edge self damage in a teamfight means you are basically dead.
The hood/cloak seems a debateable item. Lets say a massive teamfight breaks out and i use with two double edges, then its only 120/240 damage reduction for 550/2125 gold. An ogre club (190hp) worth 1000 gold with 1125 in the bank seems not such a bad choice. Only thing your missing is hp regen to achieve practically the same effect.
Early bkb means you land early stomps without any difficulty (coldsnaps etcetc).
On September 17 2014 10:00 Torte de Lini wrote: What do you guys think about going BKB after Blink Dagger? Too expensive to be an alternative to Hood of Defiance or?
I like going Blink, BKB into Halberd to start building some Strength and offer more utility.
Who says you need to get a hood? Only fixed item on centaur is blink, and that you must rush it. After that you get what you need. Halberd force dagon pipe mek shiva ac bkb. Depends on the game.
Because hood makes you take alot less damage from your double edge, which in returns makes you a huge force to be reckoned with. Without the hood taking two double edge self damage in a teamfight means you are basically dead.
Also Building it into a pipe is kinda a substitute for a BKB, not exactly the same but your HP pool should be so massive that a bkb is not really needed. Also pipe does not go down in duration, so it stays effective longer. Nukes don't really go up ( with the except few from heroes that naturally build E-blades )
I personally think if you need a bkb on centaur, you picked him in the wrong lineup. Ofcourse in really specific lineups where captains have a strong 3 core bkb timing in mind it's different, but you can count those games on 1 hand
Just because the self damage can be reduced doesn't mean you need a pipe. You only consider a pipe if the opposition lineup calls for it. I'm not saying it is a bad item. I'm saying that it is not core, it is not a must. There are other options to consider like halberd or mek. You also don't necessarily need to tank up, since force is also a valid choice, or getting diffusal against warlock/Omni.
The one and only must have item on centaur is blink.
On September 18 2014 01:37 TechSc2 wrote: I personally think if you need a bkb on centaur, you picked him in the wrong lineup. Ofcourse in really specific lineups where captains have a strong 3 core bkb timing in mind it's different, but you can count those games on 1 hand
That's not really true.
Centaur is typically seen in a more team-oriented initiation/counterinitiation role with his ultimate and Stomp. However, with an early level advantage, his high Stomp+Double Edge+Ult burst damage makes him a threat to backline heroes for a large portion of the game. BKB lets you carry through that anti-backline because it allows you to stay on a target for your BKB duration and essentially force them out of the fight or kill them (since Double Edge's CD comes up twice during a BKB's duration).
This isn't often seen because it requires a level advantage on Centaur to be threatening--Centaur isn't commonly played mid and in pro play you typically don't see offlaners getting solo kills 1v3. However, in pub play, you can get a much larger level disparity 1v2 and often get kills through better play, which can give you the necessary level advantage to be this kind of threat.
He hasn't, the hero pool is just wider and teams take care of not letting him trail behind as he has no recovery mechanism. He's still picked a lot in progames. 5th more picked hero in november according to datdota, 4th if we include october too.
I dont see why you would go bkb after blink. You have a hero that has a limited time in which he is very strong due to his 400 damage aoe nuke alongside a long duration stun, but the nuke still falls of fairly quickly, up until the point that he becomes a walking stun with a good ult. I would either build him some utility (halberd, force staff, euls) or increase his damage output as much as possible and try to make him anticarry a bit (dagon or mom basher blademail i dunno)
On November 14 2014 18:46 Froadac wrote: Any idea why centaur has fallen out of favor in the current meta?
As people already mentioned, he's still picked a lot. Teams just prefer to get Tide over Centaur atm because he can more reliably get blink due to his ancient killing capabilites, But when they can't get tide centaur gets picked quite often.
I'd consider Vlad's as a third item also. It's more about armor for your supports and damage/lifesteal for your carry than its benefits for Centaur, but the %damage does go well with his innate Strength scaling.
What do you guys think about squeezing an Urn in between Tranquils and Blink, given above-average farm?
On November 15 2014 01:50 Buckyman wrote: I'd consider Vlad's as a third item also. It's more about armor for your supports and damage/lifesteal for your carry than its benefits for Centaur, but the %damage does go well with his innate Strength scaling.
What do you guys think about squeezing an Urn in between Tranquils and Blink, given above-average farm?
Don't underestimate the power of a fast (sub 10 minutes) blink on this hero. You can completely break open games and practically win them if with 10 mins level 9 blink dagger.
Vlads isn't that good most of the time - a quicker force staff, blade mail, (sometimes pipe) can do more.
So only get Urn after Blink? Or always skip it entirely?
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Vlad's is deceptively good in a teamfight because most of its value comes from the aura. You might not notice that a teammate survived because of the armor or lifesteal, or that the bonus damage on some support right clicks forced an enemy out of the fight sooner. But it happens a lot.
Also, I wasn't including Tranquils or other laning items in the 'third item'. I'm advocating Vlad's for after a force staff or blade mail. Or urn.
On November 15 2014 02:11 Buckyman wrote: So only get Urn after Blink? Or always skip it entirely?
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Vlad's is deceptively good in a teamfight because most of its value comes from the aura. You might not notice that a teammate survived because of the armor or lifesteal, or that the bonus damage on some support right clicks forced an enemy out of the fight sooner. But it happens a lot.
Also, I wasn't including Tranquils or other laning items in the 'third item'. I'm advocating Vlad's for after a force staff or blade mail. Or urn.
Depends, I would say typically urn is "eh", because you want other items faster. You don't ever want to delay your blink, though there are some games where the blink comes so late that perhaps getting an urn is more reasonable since your blink is disgustingly late (20 mins). I guess I could see the argument there. But otherwise, yeah urn after blink isn't too bad (but this hero has regen from tranquils anyways...)
Convince your teammates to get urn instead.
Vlad's is okay,but vlads doesn't help him in his ganking proficiency that makes the hero so amazing after getting blink. It doesn't help teammates too much in midgame fights as much as just being a better ganker would be. Its...okay I guess, but there are just better items for the most part. Again, for the most part I'd rather have force, blademail, bkb. Decent if you plan around getting a rosh timing for your team I suppose.
Cons: *Miss level 5-9 solo kill timing window *Late blink dagger *Stampede damage is underwhelming *Melee support in lane *Little counter-push
Mixed *Tanky enough to trade hits with the offlaner, but low engagement range means he can't force hits to be traded. *Able to clear small/medium camp stacks, but mediocre at jungling in general. *Greedy, can't operate as position 6.
Pros: *Primary initiator from a support role. *Strong Level 2-3 gank timing with brown boots. *Good late game with only two cheap items (Tranquils/Blink). *Stampede gives global presence during the recovery split-farm period for blink dagger.
In practice, I've been forced into a support role by team decisions a few times, and it usually works out okay.
In my last match I picked so far one of my most favorite lineups. Cent offlane, viper + venge, puck, axe jungle. If you have a strong solo support then I feel having additional strong initiation is really really good especially if you pick around it. I'am not 100% sure how well cent would jungle but if he can do it decently then it's definitely an option too. I wouldn't put him just as a lane support though. I feel like if you go for a greedy pos 4 then your lineup has to be tempo all around. I don't think it would be advisable to pick a hardcarry into any position with a greedy 4th pos like cent/axe would be. Other junglers like ench/chen/enigma can put pressure on the map easier and earlyer than an axe or centaur can so you want really strong lanes in mid and safelane.
On January 18 2015 03:24 Buckyman wrote: How do y'all feel about support Centaur?
Cons: *Miss level 5-9 solo kill timing window *Late blink dagger *Stampede damage is underwhelming *Melee support in lane *Little counter-push
Mixed *Tanky enough to trade hits with the offlaner, but low engagement range means he can't force hits to be traded. *Able to clear small/medium camp stacks, but mediocre at jungling in general. *Greedy, can't operate as position 6.
Pros: *Primary initiator from a support role. *Strong Level 2-3 gank timing with brown boots. *Good late game with only two cheap items (Tranquils/Blink). *Stampede gives global presence during the recovery split-farm period for blink dagger.
In practice, I've been forced into a support role by team decisions a few times, and it usually works out okay.
Seems to me like you're basically a useless xp sapper unless you have a setup--could be viable when paired with something like a boots-first shadow demon though. Stack jungle camps in between ganks and whatnot and take the safelane after ~10 min or so to catch-up farm your blink as the carry goes to the jungle.
On a completely different note, why isn't Armlet popular on Centaur? He needs both the armor and the regen, and toggling the Armlet seems like an excellent way to survive double edging yourself to 1 HP.
As a side benefit, if my math is correct, the attack speed bonus from Armlet should be just large enough to let Centaur get off three attacks during a level 4 stomp, assuming the stomp's animation is cancelled promptly.
On January 18 2015 07:52 Buckyman wrote: On a completely different note, why isn't Armlet popular on Centaur? He needs both the armor and the regen, and toggling the Armlet seems like an excellent way to survive double edging yourself to 1 HP.
As a side benefit, if my math is correct, the attack speed bonus from Armlet should be just large enough to let Centaur get off three attacks during a level 4 stomp, assuming the stomp's animation is cancelled promptly.
Because:
1) Tranquils costs 550 to upgrade from brown boots. Armlet costs 2400.
2) That armlet could've been a Blink Dagger or Force Staff.
3) Why are you even discussing right clicks on Centaur?
Interesting idea buckyman. I think it could work in a more carrylike centaurbuild but you should go pt's (20% more damage output) aswell and ditch the tranquils. Normally you dont wait an hour at lvl 16 until tranquils heal you up for 400 hp anyway and you already got better armour from the armlet. I have seen rtz carry games on his stream with centaur, he hit like a truck with just simple strengthitems so dont underestimate statitems on centaur. I think it would be fun experimenting with a carrybuild for centaur which works for you, i'd say go for it!
The returnskill also benefits alot from strength lvl 16 without armlet he has 80 strength, resulting in 22 + 40 = 62 returndamage per hit. lvl 16 with armlet he has 105 strength, resulting in 22 + 53 = 77 returndamage per hit.
Rightclickdamage In my opinion centaur does rightclick to kill people a couple of times during the combo (3 maybe 4). as the total damage is not enough for killing most heros. Lategame, centaur can hit really hard because he has insane statgrowth (3.8 or something), therefore pt's should fit him pretty well if you itemise him a little bit as a carry.
lets assume you can get a maximum of 4 hits before/during/after the combo somehow : (179 - 123) * 4 = 66 * 4 = 264 extra damage from armlet, 23% more damage output during a combo, which is nice and certainly costeffective!
General Maybe find or experience with enough regen+stats into high tier items. I allways go urn on centaur because 1 charge is the same amount of HP as a double edge burns away (burstheal, more strength, cheap & manaregen). Urn keep me, a mediocre player, more active during the early/midgame with less downtime. Maybe urn works for you too until you sell it for a HoT during the mid/lategame.
My experimental suggestion would be to go a strengthstat carrybuild: Pt's+blink+urn+armlet--> bkb+HoT --> AC --> into basher/molnjir/skadi/hex/etc (torte de lini wrote somewhere he prefers bkb over pipe in alot of games, also a strengthitem)
When i want to draft a dedicated jungler, i tend to pick 2 good offlaners as the support cant really play babysit when she does most of the supporting alone. I think if you draft a dedicated jungler, a carry centaurbuild could be good and fit wel in a timing of certain herocompositions. Could well be i am totally wrong, but i like experiments and tend to stay positive for a long time about new idea's and suggestions.
On January 18 2015 08:51 WolfintheSheep wrote: 1) Tranquils costs 550 to upgrade from brown boots. Armlet costs 2400.
Simple facts, yes.
2) That armlet could've been a Blink Dagger or Force Staff.
Agreed, and I wouldn't suggest getting an Armlet before you have a Blink or Force Staff.
3) Why are you even discussing right clicks on Centaur?
Because Centaur almost always gets right clicks off on someone after stomping them. 300 extra physical damage during his level 11 combo seems worth talking about. (Also, 50 more from Stampede)
On January 18 2015 10:06 govie wrote:
Rightclickdamage In my opinion centaur does rightclick to kill people a couple of times during the combo (3 maybe 4). as the total damage is not enough for killing most heros. Lategame, centaur can hit really hard because he has insane statgrowth (3.8 or something), therefore pt's should fit him pretty well if you itemise him a little bit as a carry.
lets assume you can get a maximum of 4 hits before/during/after the combo somehow : (179 - 123) * 4 = 66 * 4 = 264 extra damage from armlet, 23% more damage output during a combo, which is nice and certainly costeffective!
I'm getting 289 physical right-click damage and 50 Stampede magical damage at level 11. This includes the attack speed letting him get a third extra right-click off, which would hit before the stun ends with armlet but after the stun lands without it.
General Maybe find or experience with enough regen+stats into high tier items. I allways go urn on centaur because 1 charge is the same amount of HP as a double edge burns away (burstheal, more strength, cheap & manaregen). Urn keep me, a mediocre player, more active during the early/midgame with less downtime. Maybe urn works for you too until you sell it for a HoT during the mid/lategame.
My experimental suggestion would be to go a strengthstat carrybuild: Pt's+blink+urn+armlet--> bkb+HoT --> AC --> into basher/molnjir/skadi/hex/etc (torte de lini wrote somewhere he prefers bkb over pipe in alot of games, also a strengthitem)
I was tentatively considering Tranquil Boots -> Sobi/Basi -> Blink -> Urn/Vlad's and Armlet -> situational (Manta?), eventually ditching the Tranquils.
On January 18 2015 06:54 xxpack09 wrote: Seems to me like you're basically a useless xp sapper unless you have a setup--could be viable when paired with something like a boots-first shadow demon though. Stack jungle camps in between ganks and whatnot and take the safelane after ~10 min or so to catch-up farm your blink as the carry goes to the jungle.
Support Centaur doesn't sap XP. It's basically required to be a double roam hero. You go Boots first + stun and get kills. You stack and catch up after game progresses a bit and you have Tranquils.
On January 18 2015 07:52 Buckyman wrote: On a completely different note, why isn't Armlet popular on Centaur? He needs both the armor and the regen, and toggling the Armlet seems like an excellent way to survive double edging yourself to 1 HP.
As a side benefit, if my math is correct, the attack speed bonus from Armlet should be just large enough to let Centaur get off three attacks during a level 4 stomp, assuming the stomp's animation is cancelled promptly.
Because:
1) Tranquils costs 550 to upgrade from brown boots. Armlet costs 2400.
2) That armlet could've been a Blink Dagger or Force Staff.
3) Why are you even discussing right clicks on Centaur?
Centaur can be an effective lategame right-click hero, it's just that you almost always make the transition LATER if you do so.
The hero's early-game strength is in the burst damage from his spells, which you will typically maximize with items like Blink+BKB or Blink+Hood/Pipe. At the earliest, you'd transition into damage items on your 3rd item, but at that point you start to get strapped for slots.
If you wanted to make the autoattack transition, it would be on major items 3-5 with something like AC+Heart+MKB. Armlet is cost-effective, which makes it strong earlier, but it's relative slot-inefficiency compared to 5k+ gold major items makes it awkward to buy late in the game, which is when you'd even consider the autoattack damage transition on Centaur in the first place. Prior to that, BKB offers far more effective combat power due to Magic Immunity preventing Double Edge self-damage entirely (results in more effective HP gained than Armlet's health increase), and Hood is a better farming item due to almost all your farming power coming off Double Edge spam (and Hood provides more HP regen and, again, reduces Double Edge self-damage).
I feel like you are too big on slot efficiency on that hero. Though I agree that boots->blink->bkb/pipe (if you plan on rightklick damage then it's gonna be bkb) is set in stone as a path. However the efficiency of armlet is so incredibly overwhelming as a right click item that i wouldn't ever skip it on a str based autoattacker. Yes on cent it's gonna be the third big item but only because you go for some right click damage doesn't mean you should now suddenly play passive and farm 3 big items to fill your slots efficiently. As centaur you are constantly supposed to get into peoples faces after your blink. So if you go bkb after blink and plan on rightklicking then the only item I would agree on instead of armlet would be AC if you need the aura.
Support centaur is absolutely horrendous. As a cent, you need farm and xp to do your combo effectively. Your only stun is melee range. Unless you have a lane partner who has a stun, you will just get kited a lot. Support centaur will also tend to be squishy so you cannot use return to its full capability (OP OP OP)
I think its all about getting a good hoofstomp off and less about xp and gold, that means 2300 gold or supporttiny is adviceable, it seems not that effective if you ask me. Elder titan became a support somewhere, although he didnt need a blink to be effective and centaur does. I think brew could well be the next core that becomes a support. Even without a blinkdagger he should be able to kill with smokes around lvl 6 and onwards. Just the vortex (eulsspell) is usefull enough for a supportrole to create 4v5 battles. Put him in a lineup that doesnt care about magic immunity to create a bkb-paradox. But centaur doesnt offer that paradox without 2300 gold,which seems the biggest difference between eldertitan, cw or even brew.
What's the general rule of thumb for Hood/Pipe vs BKB for centaur?
I often find myself unsure of which to go for, the hood is really nice for farming speed and pipe is really useful in pubs to add a lot to centaur's ability to counter-gank or turn fights quickly but sometimes I go for Pipe and feel like I'm just getting blown up in fights anyways.
Like I want BKB when the enemy team has a ton of magic damage, especially stuff that I think will hit me even as the enemies target my mid/safelane cores. But that's also exactly what I want pipe for because I want to be able to keep those cores and supports up.
If the enemy team has some really nasty disables it seems easy to choose. Likewise if they don't have much magic damage at all (hood or cloak for farming then). But when they have high magic damage without disables (say heroes like Phoenix*) I don't really know how to choose.
*I know sunray is pure, but fire spirits + supernova is still a ton of magic dmg.
On January 27 2015 01:18 Logo wrote: Like I want BKB when the enemy team has a ton of magic damage, especially stuff that I think will hit me even as the enemies target my mid/safelane cores. But that's also exactly what I want pipe for because I want to be able to keep those cores and supports up.
But those have varied priority from game-to-game. Sometimes your other cores/supports are more or less self-sufficient, and benefit from you cutting the enemy backline effectively more than you just giving them a magic shield. You sort of have to judge from the game whether it's more effective to make yourself more dangerous (BKB gives you more self-stats and makes you harder to deal with), or whether to buy a team item that gives relatively inefficient self-stats in exchange for some team defense.
Armlet's probably not a 50% item, more like a 10% item. But right now, it's not even considered a 1% item.
Dotabuff Quiz: In pub games, which of the following items is less popular on Centaur than Armlet? (a) Orchid (b) Battlefury (c) Dagon 5 (d) Radiance (e) None of the above
I'm sort of surprised to see veil so low on the list for a hero that deals 700-800 magic damage in a full rotation (stampede, stomp, double edge) and 650 on a short cooldown. I mean I agree it's not what you want to get on him, but you'd at least think people would experiment with it more often than Orchid, Dagon, Necro, Butterfly, Bloodstone or Ring of Aquila (wtf?).
Aquila seems fine as a 1% item. Basilius is situational on everyone, and the slotless stats from the upgrade are pretty cheap. Vlad's is better, but a large commitment for a temporary value slot.
Blink is core. Then generally you want to tank up after, but how or whether you do so is dependent on the game and how much farm you are going to get. If you need to dive and initiate, you likely need bkb at some point. Halberd provides additional utility against enemy carry. Armlet if you intend to go for some DPS route. Force if you want more mobility. Crimson if you don't need bkb asap (most common choice). Pipe against spell intensive enemies. Heart if you are doing too well. Dagon if you need the burst. Orchid/hex for an additional disable say against jugg or slark.
Mix and match. Evaluate what you need according to his the game goes.
On January 29 2015 03:07 Buckyman wrote: Armlet's probably not a 50% item, more like a 10% item. But right now, it's not even considered a 1% item.
Dotabuff Quiz: In pub games, which of the following items is less popular on Centaur than Armlet? (a) Orchid (b) Battlefury (c) Dagon 5 (d) Radiance (e) None of the above
If you run centaur as a carry i still think its not a bad idea to start experimenting with armlet centaur. Navi ran him twice today in a lineup without a true carry.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/5/54/Centaur_Warrunner_Large.png)
