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I still see almost no reason to not go Arcane -> Mek 90% or more of the games. You cant buy farming items because you cant farm and you dont do anything with right click items. Mana items are nice and all but being able to cast 6234 spells doesnt matter much when you have no HP and no survivability. And honestly arcanes goes a long way either way.
You want to be in the middle of things but compared to the alternatives (primarily blademail and vanguard) you just have nowhere close to as much impact as a Mek. And any other survivability item feels very lackluster.
After mek and arcanes just get whatever your team needs the most. Be that auras, a hex, pushing items like pipe or necro, you can be the one to get it for your team. Items mean very little for your own hero after Mek.
Also to some extend I think talking items the wrong idea with this hero. You need to get shit done in your lane. After like 250 games I'd say nothing comes close to as good as going duo offlane. Solo you're not strong enough to contest most of the times and you fall off way too quickly compared to other offlaners. Safelane support is shit too because you're not fighting anyone and the toolkit isnt good at zoning out an offlaner either. If you do duo offlane you're almost guaranteed to end up in a fighting scenario, and thats what you want. And if they dont fight you then you already won a victory right there. I've done duo offlanes with stupid partners like Zeus or Clinkz but dont care, as long as it forces the enemy to either fight you or give up their safelane farm. I'll win the lane in a vast majority of the times myself and long as theres fights starting no matter who my partner is.
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On January 22 2015 10:10 Kreb wrote:
I still see almost no reason to not go Arcane -> Mek 90% or more of the games. You cant buy farming items because you cant farm and you dont do anything with right click items. Mana items are nice and all but being able to cast 6234 spells doesnt matter much when you have no HP and no survivability. And honestly arcanes goes a long way either way.
You want to be in the middle of things but compared to the alternatives (primarily blademail and vanguard) you just have nowhere close to as much impact as a Mek. And any other survivability item feels very lackluster.
After mek and arcanes just get whatever your team needs the most. Be that auras, a hex, pushing items like pipe or necro, you can be the one to get it for your team. Items mean very little for your own hero after Mek.
Also to some extend I think talking items the wrong idea with this hero. You need to get shit done in your lane. After like 250 games I'd say nothing comes close to as good as going duo offlane. Solo you're not strong enough to contest most of the times and you fall off way too quickly compared to other offlaners. Safelane support is shit too because you're not fighting anyone and the toolkit isnt good at zoning out an offlaner either. If you do duo offlane you're almost guaranteed to end up in a fighting scenario, and thats what you want. And if they dont fight you then you already won a victory right there. I've done duo offlanes with stupid partners like Zeus or Clinkz but dont care, as long as it forces the enemy to either fight you or give up their safelane farm. I'll win the lane in a vast majority of the times myself and long as theres fights starting no matter who my partner is.
Heh any dual lane just rapes :D
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United States15275 Posts
What's the best general dual lane for an offlane Undying? Venomancer? KotL?
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On January 22 2015 14:56 CosmicSpiral wrote:
What's the best general dual lane for an offlane Undying? Venomancer? KotL?
My preference are heroes that can force fights with some kind of lockdown. If it's a farming hero that uses the farm and scales well into midgame thats a bonus too. As an example you could for example grab a strong hero like Razor with him, but the problem is neither Undy nor Razor lock a hero down. It would be pretty much impossible for any lane to fight into that, but at the same time everyone is just gonna be able to walk away from you whenever you want a fight. If the lane ends up at their tower you might have a hard time using the fact that you're much stronger.
Some heroes makes fighting easier like ESpirit, Skywrath, Veno, Ogre. They provide the lockdown and you provide the means to win just about any fight. While these can all work well and are definitely solid options, the general problem with them are that none of them uses the farm super good. Winning the lane is good and all that, but there needs to be a follow up plan. So it puts some pressure on you to continue to snowball because your heroes fall off. If your mid and safelane farmer isnt having the best time of their lives, you might just end up with a won lane but unable to capitalize off it. If I ever see something like a Undy+Veno in my lane as safelane farmer, my advice would often be to just let them have their lane, let them get a tower if necessary and focus on winning the other lanes.
Another option is to just put a solid farming hero in the lane with undying. Heroes that use the farm better. Could be a Necro is Viper for max aids. QoP or Troll are very solid options and both are pretty good at forcing fights. These 4 would definitely be among my favourites. If the enemy safelane farmer is some kind of melee you can often also put your own melee carry (PA, Sven, Slark, Void, CK, you name it) in the lane too with good result. All of them have some kind of lockdown to start fights with. But its harder to make that work against strong ranged enemy safelane farmers.
I obviously havent play all these lanes but thats kinda how I see it. You want lockdown to complement your lacking lockdown. And if possible you also want the partner to scale well with the farm he supposedly will get. But most times im just happy to get anything with me. If I get a support like Ogre i'll take the farm myself and try to make use of it. I get my Mek early and dive towers whenever I can to keep snowballing and get objectives. If I get a ranged farming hero like Clinkz or Luna or something else stupid we're probably not gonna get many kills and it's definitely not ideal. But normally I can still assure they're the ones farming and not the enemy. And hopefully they make good use of it.
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I have had nice games with roaming spirit breaker (support) and solo offlane undying. It felt like best of both worlds, undying way ahead in experience against the trilane and a hard to spot initiationcharge was all he needed (if sb initiates its a duallane, sort of i guess).
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I ended up using the advice here and some that I saw on reddit and it's been going well.
The general idea I picked up was to focus a bit more heavily on armor than is common as there's some great cheap armor items to do just that. So the general item progression being 2xRoPs -> Tranqs + Basilius + wand -> Mek -> Eul's. I tend to grab the Eul's sobi mask before building mek for the mana regen which helps with sustaining soul rips or using decays to fish for tombstones. The extra focus on armor really gives you strong mid-game presence that doesn't drop off quite as fast.
I feel like arcanes can be a bit of a trap after playing around more. They're pretty expensive for mana for a hero that wants to focus on things so early in the game. Yeah it's nice for spamming decay & Soul Rip, but early on those abilities have longer cooldowns and the boots offer no survival for Undying which can make all the difference in what you're able to do early on. Even without a larger mana pool undying has enough to drop a full combo with multiple decays in the 7-10 range. Arcanes mostly seems to offer some mana sustain + the ability at 11+ to really hammer the decays home, but that's sort of a late timing and if you're building another strong mana item (like Eul's) then it's going to start coming online around then.
It's probably far better for your 2nd support to get arcanes and you leech off them or just make do with other mana items that offer defensive bonuses. I think I'm going to leave arcanes only for those games where my enemies have some devastating form of mana burn I need to worry about.
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I think you should have manapoolproblems to efficiently pop the mek & using your other spells during 1 battle, no? Mek costs about 225 mana and manaboot grants you 335 extra manapool in total during 1 fight. I think you should allways try manaboots if you go for mek, just for the manapool enhancement in 1 fight alone. Im not saying other boots then manaboots are bad on him, just less efficient together with a mek. Food for thought
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I like undying a lot, when I play it my usual build is to skip decay and instead go 3 in soul rip and 2 in tombstone at level 5, that allows some very easy kills every time your tombstone is up (or even in between if there are lots of units around for some reason, like radiant top when big camp is pulled + both creepwaves are near), makes soulrip a +-300 damage nuke after reduction every 12 seconds, so you soulrip someone, then 5-6 seconds later you put your tombstone and do a 2nd soulrip.
I find soulrip better in practice than decay early game.
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On January 22 2015 21:04 govie wrote:
I think you should have manapoolproblems to efficiently pop the mek & using your other spells during 1 battle. Mek costs about 225 mana and manaboot grants you 335 extra manapool in total during 1 fight. I think you should allways try manaboots if you go for mek, just for the manapool enhancement in 1 fight alone. Im not saying other boots then manaboots are bad on him, just less efficient together with a mek. Food for thought
At 7 without arcanes you have enough mana for Mek + Ult + Tombstone + Decay + Soul Rip with like 50 mana left over and pretty good regen (2.6 or 3.5 depending on if you buy the second sobi mask early). Of course you then have wand on top of that. So even with a fast farm up you're not getting overly strapped for mana for a single fight.
Plus the savings of tranquils over arcanes puts you several hundred gold ahead depending on how you'd be building up and after mek you can focus more on something that offers a larger mana pool & sustain (like Eul's).
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On January 22 2015 21:14 MrCon wrote:
I like undying a lot, when I play it my usual build is to skip decay and instead go 3 in soul rip and 2 in tombstone at level 5, that allows some very easy kills every time your tombstone is up (or even in between if there are lots of units around for some reason, like radiant top when big camp is pulled + both creepwaves are near), makes soulrip a +-300 damage nuke after reduction every 12 seconds, so you soulrip someone, then 5-6 seconds later you put your tombstone and do a 2nd soulrip.
I find soulrip better in practice than decay early game.
Umm decay is like what make you deceptively squishy though. I mean they think that you're an easy target over the course of the skirmish, but suddenly they have no HP.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 22 2015 20:50 Logo wrote:
I feel like arcanes can be a bit of a trap after playing around more. They're pretty expensive for mana for a hero that wants to focus on things so early in the game. Yeah it's nice for spamming decay & Soul Rip, but early on those abilities have longer cooldowns and the boots offer no survival for Undying which can make all the difference in what you're able to do early on. Even without a larger mana pool undying has enough to drop a full combo with multiple decays in the 7-10 range. Arcanes mostly seems to offer some mana sustain + the ability at 11+ to really hammer the decays home, but that's sort of a late timing and if you're building another strong mana item (like Eul's) then it's going to start coming online around then.
He's also a hero centered around early push timings to be effective though, and that's where Arcanes are by far the most effective boots to have--not just for yourself, but for mana-strapped heroes on your team as well. Even up to a 3rd or 4th pair, they have high effectiveness in those situations.
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Yeah I definitely can see that, but at the same time I feel like what makes Undying great at pushing also gets a lot better with the extra 4 armor and hp sustain and potentially you're getting to Mek faster so you can start that pressure even earlier. It just feels like every enemy level matters so much for Undying because the extra hp from leveling up can make the difference between deathlust and not. Whereas when I go arcanes I'll use them decently early, but they feel more for like level 9 and 10 when Decay has a short cooldown and high mana cost.
Though I think I could see arcane boots being worth it against magic heavy line-ups as well where the armor isn't going to offer much or if it really makes the difference for your allies.
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adding to the dual offlane thought: that is how me and a friend of mine play as well (mostly Undying + Viper), and it works out great most of the time. The enemy cant just stay passive due to Vipers harass, which forces them to fight and Undying is happy. Another nice combo is Warlock: tombstone + early 3 levels in upheaval can be surprisingly effective, and the teamfight in the midgame is disgusting  Warlock is also a hero that can use the farm well I think.
just my 2 cents
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Question: Do 2 tombstones deal double damage and double slow? Does it add up (refresherthoughts for 2 long cd spells, i never tried it)?
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Zombies attack debuff fully stacks yes. But a refresher for that looks bad to me at first glance.
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On January 23 2015 00:12 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 21:14 MrCon wrote:
I like undying a lot, when I play it my usual build is to skip decay and instead go 3 in soul rip and 2 in tombstone at level 5, that allows some very easy kills every time your tombstone is up (or even in between if there are lots of units around for some reason, like radiant top when big camp is pulled + both creepwaves are near), makes soulrip a +-300 damage nuke after reduction every 12 seconds, so you soulrip someone, then 5-6 seconds later you put your tombstone and do a 2nd soulrip.
I find soulrip better in practice than decay early game. Umm decay is like what make you deceptively squishy though. I mean they think that you're an easy target over the course of the skirmish, but suddenly they have no HP.
Yeah I know, leveling decay early is a mana pit tho =)
But that was just my build, I know it's not popular but try it once or twice.
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On January 23 2015 06:12 MrCon wrote:
Zombies attack debuff fully stacks yes. But a refresher for that looks bad to me at first glance.
I know there is/was a cheese play with Naga Siren where you Song -> Refresher Tombstone so there's hordes of zombies everywhere when the fight starts.
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On January 23 2015 06:27 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 06:12 MrCon wrote:
Zombies attack debuff fully stacks yes. But a refresher for that looks bad to me at first glance. I know there is/was a cheese play with Naga Siren where you Song -> Refresher Tombstone so there's hordes of zombies everywhere when the fight starts.
`
Dazzle heal after song ends, 980 damage to all heros every 6 seconds, moehaha they are all gonna cry
I think broodmother could maybe be good with undying in a duallane as the nuke of undying scales well with more spiders on the field (free dagon really early).
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Playing undying has a lot of item flexibility depending on enemy composition and its pretty easy to get a good start (in pubs at least) because most of the time players severely underestimate the damage decay + tombstone pre- level 6 dual offlanes can do. Early game, arcanes + basi ring + magic stick should give you enough mana sustain, any of you peeps go soul ring into bloodstone? Would like to hear your experience with that.
Not sure about going Mek after Arcanes is the optimal build these days with the added mana cost. Of course it's always good if your team is heavily team fight orientated and that you're best hero on the team to go Mek. While considering Mek, you can always pick up the chainmail @ the side shop for the additional armour and consider blademail. I've had a lot of success going Aghs or necrobook too.
Getting hood into pipe is good, getting vanguard into crimson guard is also viable. Tanking and staying alive in ulti form with decay + soul rip spam + tombstone is more than enough to win you the fight if you don't have incompetent team mates.
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By the time an undying can get a refresher you're either winning hard and you could buy a battlefury and do just as well or your tombstone is already way past its prime in usefulness.
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EPT
