|
Changes to the Soul Rip made it so it is 1 point value skill, where before you've needed at least 2 points in it to be any good, now it shines at first level and even though you need less units than before, it now also deals less damage/healing than before on all levels but first.
Before my skill build at level 7 was something like 1-2-4-0(I rarely got the ulti as you didn't really have the mana to use it whenever you needed or some other skill would be better anyway), and after that I usually max Decay, situationally Soul Rip.
Right now, I have a feeling that 1-1-4-1 is great(you can skip Flesh Golem again, but it is buffed so it might be worth picking it at 6 now). I would still max Decay instead of Soul Rip as Decay is more spammable and always good where Soul Rip is situational, but Soul Rip have lower requirements now to do great damage so, I am not really sure.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think that it matters much how you skill build him after first 7-8 levels when you Tombstone is maxed, that is the time when he shines, and he will be good no matter if you max Decay or Soul Rip.
|
I've been maxing tombstone first, then decay and skipping out on the ultimate till levels 10/11 to get both points at once. Tomb is obvious, maxing decay gives you a lower cooldown which ups the damage. Sure the stated damage number isn't high but each stack is -74 health so it adds up. And you have mana issues and you don't need the damage amp early from your ult. That's how I feel.
So i've basically been going support undying and he's now my most played hero with 35 matches and a 68.57% winrate.
What I'm still not sure of is what kind of boots to go for. I used to go treads, did a few games with tranquils/soul ring and recently been going arcanes since I've been picking up mekanasm a lot. Curious what people think are the right boots to go for him if any.
|
United States47024 Posts
Arcanes, Tranquils, or plain Brown Boots are the only really reasonable boot choices most of the time. You aren't really a good autoattack hero, so the Treads upgrade is a waste, nor are you a practical chasing/engaging hero. Arcanes is still often the right choice even if you're NOT getting Mek--if you don't get Arcanes, you're still likely to want a mana item pretty soon (Bottle, SR, or Staff of Wizardry-based item).
Not sure I really agree with skipping Ultimate. It just does too much for you all at once in a fight (damage amp, slow, heal on enemy unit deaths). If anything, it's the FIRST rank that's the best because the slow and heal are fixed while only the damage amp % scales up 5% with every rank. It's not an ult that's hugely more effective at 2nd rank that warrants the 10/11 ulti over getting it immediately at 6.
The times it warrants skipping are when you get some weird scrappy games where you get a lot of small fights rather than big Tombstone fights--but if you're maxing Tombstone by 7, you want those big fights, and if you're getting them, Flesh Golem has similar CD and is definitely going to add more than another spell.
|
I've been skipping it more due to his mana issues. But since I've been getting more arcane's recently I'll try getting it early. Been still experimenting a lot with him. Having a lot of success with him but with his item choices open ended, still trying to nail down general optimal itemization/skill builds.
|
I am definitely skipping ultimate because of mana issues because I am getting Tranquil majority of the times as offlaner Undying. If I am support or any other lane, I am probably getting Arcane and I could get ultimate.
It happened to me multiple times that I don't have enough mana for decay/soul rip to kill somebody because I popped ultimate at the start.
|
If you are having severe enough mana issues that you cant use his ultimate, you should probably be going arcanes.
|
The movement slow from the ult has a massive range, 750 AOE and it is fairly strong slow as well, makes chasing down enemies at the end of fights feel way easier even before the damage amp. I used to skip the ult but I can't see the logic in skipping it the majority of the time anymore.
Even just a wand should usually let you get enough mana to cast a decay or soul rip multiple times through fights as undying really does tend to prolong the fights.
|
Early and and nulls for a veil of discord later on is descent and helps somewhat.
|
United States47024 Posts
He's not that good of a Veil carrier since he doesn't do much magic damage. Decay has a pretty low damage value and therefore isn't greatly enhanced since it's largely predicated on the Strength steal more than the actual damage. Soul Rip can have high values but often gets used for the heal because it's more efficient unless your team is trying to burst someone down, and Tombstone zombies, which are your main strength in midgame fights, do physical damage.
|
Undying (offlane) is one of my most played heroes, yet I am often perplexed about which items to get. Standard items like blade mail and pipe require the right situation to work. Vanguard makes you tanky, but not that tanky. Arcane boots are good if your team is with you and pushing early, but pointless and expensive if not. AC is good, but takes an hour to build with Undying's farming speed. Urn is good, but will delay other stuff.
What are people's opinions on some less traditional items like:
- Mask of madness
- Necrobook
- Bloodstone
- S&Y
|
On January 07 2015 00:18 HollywoodHolocaust wrote:Undying (offlane) is one of my most played heroes, yet I am often perplexed about which items to get. Standard items like blade mail and pipe require the right situation to work. Vanguard makes you tanky, but not that tanky. Arcane boots are good if your team is with you and pushing early, but pointless and expensive if not. AC is good, but takes an hour to build with Undying's farming speed. Urn is good, but will delay other stuff. What are people's opinions on some less traditional items like: - Mask of madness
- Necrobook
- Bloodstone
- S&Y
- Holy shit bad.
- Anywhere between pretty bad and really good.
- Bad.
- Bad.
Necro is a good first big item when you're looking to end the game early. You probably get Mek -> Necro3 and thats what you got when you push highground. It's pretty pointless in farm oriented games or games where you're on the backfoot and need to defend though.
You dont really need any particular items so you should always try for utility stuff. Auras can be good (Vlad, AC, Shivas), Hex/Halberd/Pipe/Necro/Blademail can be good. Mek should really be your go-to first item though, it fits so well with his playstyle and the tankiness is super good. I rarely see a reason to not start Arcanes -> Mek and then go from there into above mentioned items.
|
C9 played him offlane yesterday and rushed euls. Not really sure what the synergy is there but it was interesting
|
Those items really dont fit on undying imo, if you want those items you are better off playing other hero's.
vlads, veil or mek > mom (aoe armour,& lifesteal & manaregen & vlads works on zombies too)
Rod of Aui. Armlet > S&Y (garanteed aui slow instead of a proc & has synergy with bloodlusted zombies | armlet is costeffective and free armour)
Aghs, crimson or Shiva's > Necrobook (all three inhance teamfight capabilities more then a necro)
Skadi/hot/linkens/hex > Bloodstone
If you want more solo killpotential on a solo offlane undying, then I suggest that manaboot+dagon+blink/force is better alternative (bone7 trolled with that in a promatch a couple of weeks ago): Dagon lvl 1+soulrip lvl4+fleshgolem= (400*460)*~1,3=about 1150 single target damage pretty early on. Or dual targets for enhancing your tombstone's effectiveness.
E: If you absolutely want a rightclick undying then i suggest : Pt's+armlet+vlads+molnjir (enough early EHP, fast hitter with some procs for a descent price which should be farmable by undying). Dotabuff also shows that armlet has a higher winrate then average so its certainly worth the gold.
|
On January 07 2015 01:01 Nevuk wrote:
C9 played him offlane yesterday and rushed euls. Not really sure what the synergy is there but it was interesting
Eul and/or Atos are really good on him. Eul obviously among better items in the game right now, and he desperately needs some kind of disable.
I've tried Eul + Atos combination, and if enemy doesn't have some sort of escape mechanic he is just dead. He can't just tp away from you because now you have Euls and when you place Tombstone and do Atos + Eul + Atos combo, he got like 5 Zombies on him together with you. You have a lot of HP and healing and enormous mana pool and you can pretty much kill anyone.
About standard items for him outside of Euls and Atos, I am not sure about Meka with increased mana cost, he has mana problems even without it. Other items that are good on him are Necrobook, Vlads, Blademail, Force Staff, Pipe and after that some luxury items like Shiva and Hex.
|
FYI, just tried it: pt's+armlet+vlads with a dazzle on my team, felt ok that game because the timings of undying, dazzle heal and the armlet were pretty similar. And even if i screwed up the toggles, dazzle was there to save my ass anyway;)
Dont know what the higher mmr guys think about this, but as a duo it felt pretty doable.
|
United States47024 Posts
If you're gonna get Armlet on one of those heroes, it may as well be the Dazzle getting the Armlet himself.
|
On January 07 2015 04:11 TheYango wrote:
If you're gonna get Armlet on one of those heroes, it may as well be the Dazzle getting the Armlet himself.
Ahaha well said.
|
If people are building Eul's how are they building into it? I feel like when I go for an early Eul's I'm left with a very small HP pool & no armor that can be tough to work around. If fights happen 5v5 and you can get big Decays off it's not bad, but if the fights are at all scrappy then I feel paper thin and the +4 or +8 str from a decay doesn't really seem to make the difference. Urn is an obvious potential build up, but if someone on my team is already getting it is there anything else I should/could go for?
The other thing I'm curious about with undying is how to better bully your lane. Decay is obviously a very powerful tool against melee carries, but I'm not really sure how to use it for a good long term benefit. If I only cast it once or something then it doesn't really apply much pressure, but if I spam it I will exert influence for just a short while (maybe a minute or so) until the stacks run off then the melee carry just comes back and I don't really have much left to pressure with. Arcane boots solves that to a big extent, but until then I'm not really sure what way I am supposed to be approaching things.
|
I know bone7 goes euls, but all those replays are gone so I'm not sure how he goes about it.
Whenever I get items on undying, none of them feel spectacularly effective.
|
On January 21 2015 03:49 Logo wrote:
If people are building Eul's how are they building into it? I feel like when I go for an early Eul's I'm left with a very small HP pool & no armor that can be tough to work around. If fights happen 5v5 and you can get big Decays off it's not bad, but if the fights are at all scrappy then I feel paper thin and the +4 or +8 str from a decay doesn't really seem to make the difference. Urn is an obvious potential build up, but if someone on my team is already getting it is there anything else I should/could go for?
The other thing I'm curious about with undying is how to better bully your lane. Decay is obviously a very powerful tool against melee carries, but I'm not really sure how to use it for a good long term benefit. If I only cast it once or something then it doesn't really apply much pressure, but if I spam it I will exert influence for just a short while (maybe a minute or so) until the stacks run off then the melee carry just comes back and I don't really have much left to pressure with. Arcane boots solves that to a big extent, but until then I'm not really sure what way I am supposed to be approaching things.
I can only state my own mediocre experiences as why undying sometimes works well as an solo offlaner in my pubs. Take the info as you please.
How i think undying works
1. The tombstone is the defining skill of undying in 6.83 and therefore I max it first in 6.83 (used to be different);
2. Undying works well against low hp trilanes and is less effective against higher HPpool trilanes imo. I think that's because the 100/200/300/400 deathlust threshold for spawning zombies which you should reach sooner against lower HP hero's;
3. Thats why it seems pretty clear that the later the game goes, the more HP you will be facing and the less usefull the tombstone and undying will become without items or synergy with other hero's etc;
4. To be effective with undying your laninggoal imo seems to be to get 2 out of 3 trilane hero's constantly under or close to the threshold from the tombstone. As a general guideline i'd say that aiming at a double/triple kill attempt around a lvl3 tombstone (at hero lvl 5, 6 or 7) is a nice way of going about. You decay targets you want to keep close to the threshold, thats basically it. Eventually you pop the tombstome, decay+maybe an ultimate, wait for a zombiepocalypse and soulrip 1 target. You can also choose to use the soulrip on the highest HP hero to get their HP below the threshold so that all three hero's are below the threshold, maybe gambling on a triple kill (which can be done multiple games in a row if you get favorable trilanes).
Items based on the above
a. Lets just focus on that first most important snowball event during the laningstage. Vlads boosts the outputdamage of zombies and heros and has some synergy with undyings ultimate. I think it is a core item during the midgame if no one else gets it. Because undying does not have the highest basearmour a rob (with a stick) is really nice and core during the laningstage.
b. a 4 and 6 second cooldown on spells/nukes means staying alive for that last decay can be gamechanging, so tanking up in whatever way possible is never a bad idea. Besides that, any item that helps improving the effectiveness of the tombstone, undying and allies seems a great choice (ie. thats why i didnt dismiss the idea of armlet on undying);
c. After that i'd say almost any item or boots can work well on undying. Even a dagon can work wonders just to get people under the zombiethreshold or even slowed so they die sooner or cant escape, simple as that. Thats why imo it doesnt really matter what itembuild you go for so long as it benefits the team and preferably your tombstone/teamfight combo.
d. I do think an euls seems very situational as it singles an enemy or yourself out of a fight, but doesnt enhance the effectiveness of your spells at the timing undying should be the strongest hero in the game (except maybe manapoolwise, but clarities and your boots of choice can solve most manaproblems anyway).
Closing thought: As an example, my most fun snowballed games were against drow+venge trilanes or similar iirc. Undying also good in teamfights/deathballdrafts, but the lower the HP pool the more fun and influence you will have with undying in general.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
