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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/6/6b/Undying_Large.png) Undying
How long has it been since he lost his name? The torn ruin of his mind no longer knows.
Dimly he recalls armor and banners and grim-faced kin riding at his side. He remembers a battle: pain and fear as pale hands ripped him from his saddle. He remembers terror as they threw him into the yawning pit of the Dead God alongside his brothers, to hear the Dirge and be consumed into nothingness. In the darkness below, time left them. Thought left them. Sanity left them. Hunger, however, did not. They turned on each other with split fingernails and shattered teeth. Then it came: distant at first, a fragile note at the edge of perception, joined by another, then another, inescapable and unending. The chorus grew into a living wall of sound pulsing in his mind until no other thought survived. With the Dirge consuming him, he opened his arms to the Dead God and welcomed his obliteration. Yet destruction was not what he'd been chosen for. The Dead God demanded war. In the belly of the great nothing, he was granted a new purpose: to spread the Dirge across the land, to rally the sleepless dead against the living. He was to become the Undying, the herald of the Dead God, to rise and fall and rise again whenever his body failed him. To trudge on through death unending, that the Dirge might never end.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Undying
Promatches : http://www.datdota.com/hero.php?q=Undying
Old thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/dota-2-strategy/388458-hero-undying-old
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
I think there's still only one way to build him - max decay, one point in soul rip, and max tombstone?
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I would never put more than 2 points in Decay unless I'm getting really fast Arcane Boots. Most mana-efficient build is 1-1-4 by level 6, and I would recommend this every time you're playing position 4/5 Undying.
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I like the 2nd point in Soul rip for drawing from 10 creeps instead of 5.
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Skills
I think and am testing atm if maxing soulrip after 1 point in decay is more sustainable and versatile, as it can heal or deal damage. I cant spam decay in the early game anyway. I am going for a 1411 into 1442. 1442 seems nice because you can heal the tombstone with soulrip, which means it could stand ground until the fight ends. Yes, tombstone is wierd spell but it creates chaos, people cant hit combos as well anymore (a bit similar to reincarnation but with a longer duration). It also seems to synergize well with his ultimate for maximum efficiency.
Items
But the itembuild feels the hardest part. Going standard manaboot+stick+mek seems fine, but it takes a long time before i will be able to farm both items. Maybe even too late to have a positive impact on the outcome of the game. Undying doesnt feel that manastarved to me anyway so i think TQboot+urn+wand as core could maybe be cheaper/faster/more efficient. His ulitmate asks me to stay alive during fights, therefore I think a ghostsepter before aghs after could be core on him if his aura stays active during ghostform (i believe so, but others here can confirm this).
A blademail only seems usefull if he gets more HP and no armour increasingitems, its questionable that i can farm all those items.
Herocombo's
In the pubs i think undying could synergise well with a bloodseeker, as both hero's gain HP when enemies die #teamlastmanstanding. Most bloodseekers tend to build a bkb somewhere during a game, this could increase the effectiveness of the fleshgolem's ultimate aswell.
He is a challenging hero to play around with, its just so wierd i like it! .
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I am mediocre and all (below 3k) but I found a way to farm a little bit more gold and experience as a support undying in the jungle. Its still wonky and bad but I am trying to find ways to make it a bit more efficient and see if its applicable in my pubs in the future when undying plays as a 5 or a 4.
With a tombstone (lvl3) you can farm a medium camp in about two attempts. The 800 radius of tombstone is really large at lvl3 (1000 at lvl 4) and it destroys trees too. On radiant and the Direside, there are certainly 2 places or more where the tombstone touches more then 1 junglecamp. This means that you can triple/quadruple stack 2 camps (medium+hard or medium+medium) and farm these with 2 tombstones in approx 90 seconds. Maybe not a good idea for pro's, but in the pubs it should work.
Maximum soloprofit (gold+xp) of 6/8 medium and 6/8 hard stacks, farmable in 2 times 90 seconds with 4 tombstones.
medium = 8 * 102 = 816 gold (1616xp)
hard = 8 * 124 = 984 gold (1760xp)
Anyone ever tried this?
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Lalalaland34492 Posts
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i always go 1/1/4/1 as an aggro tri support or duo offlane. decay vs soul rip depends on how mana starved you are.put tombstone in an annoying place in teamfights, press r, win
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Skipping 2nd point is soul rip is a hige mistake tbh. Being able to throw that 250hp heal/nuke on lvl 3/4 is something you shouldnt ever pass up on. 1-2-1 into 1-2-4-1.
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i go 0 4 2 0 -> 0 4 4 1 -> 4 4 4 3 because i feel level 4 soul rip is af ucking ridiculous nuke at level 4 and should be prioritzed asap,
a good tombstone should give you a max soul rip (you should be picking undying in a 2v2 or 3v3 preferably with extra units like veno wards) and just totally kill someones face unexpectedly, every time. then you get 5 bottles and get reported
100% works i guarntee it
flesh golem is kinda nice but i like 2 level 4 soul rips better at level 6 (the cooldown change of 12 to 6 and mana cost of flesh golem pretty much make it one or the other)
level 1 decay is a piece of shit waste of mana
huge nukes are king, especially when people dont expect it out of level 6 undying
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On May 04 2014 10:16 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
level 1 decay is a piece of shit waste of mana
What? I agree it scales bad but lvl 1 its still great. Its not the damage you're looking for you know, its the str-steal. And it heals you for 76hp/hero you hit. It wont win you any team fights but its an awesome spell for laning either for softening on them before you initiate or for healing yourself when they initiate.
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but then how will you get doublekills at level 6 with like 500-775 nuke damage (over like 7 seconds but still thats nice on top of your zombies)
4 heroes in lane + 8 creeps on both sides + 6 zombies on creeps and heroes = 18, which you need level 4 soul rip to get full damage from, and the 6 sec cd is nice
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In the old thread someone posted a nice calculation of how he killed hero's of 900hp at lvl 5 within 3 seconds with QEWQ (skilled 131) if he could place the tombstone behind the target. I didnt like his itembuilds/rolespicked tho but his explanation felt it was correct.
E : He also pointed out that phaseboots synergise well with tombstone, because you move through the zombies. I tested it and it felt quite usefull.
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I dont see him building anything else than manaboots tbh. 4 active skills all costing mana, even though none are super expensive, makes sure you need it.
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Phase boots is OK if you are a core. Most of the times you want arcane though. Undying is a fun hero because you randomly survive and get kills when you least expect :O
He is quite an easy hero to play in pubs. Everyone just underestimates him
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I like this hero. Winning lanes wins games in pubs and this hero wins lanes.
How do people skill him now? Previously I would go decay - rip - rip - max tombstone - lvl1ult - max rip
Decay is amazing at just one point and you don't have the mana to support more than that in lane anyways.
My opinion of the latest patch changes is that soulrip lvl1 and lvl4 got significantly buffed (Yeah total dmg at lvl4 is like 20 points lower but 16 creeps is a lot more manageable than 20 and for almost all actual casts you will do significantly more with the new rip) while lvl2 and 3 remains more or less identical to before.
Thus the question imo becomes whether to go for level4 rip at lvl8 (with 1 decay and 2 tomb) or 1 decay 1 rip - max tomb - ult at 7 - max rip.
I think I prefer the latter version. Earlier levels in tombstone are going to come in handy and a 180 dmg nuke for just one skillpoint is absolutely amazing value. Come midgame I still want max rip over max decay, with the new rip you are getting a perfectly reliable 340-400 dmg nuke/heal on a 6sec cd for the level 10 skirmishes and tower fights. That's just too good to pass up.
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I always only get one point in Soul Rip before Tombstone for pub play. Tombstone is SO strong in pubs that maxing it super fast just adds a ton.
Dropping ult to 7 in favour of Tombstone max one level earlier is situational I feel though. Level 4 tombstone is amazing but getting your ult up can do a lot.
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You can't max a skill by 6 anyway. Get your ult.
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Also, is lvl 4 rip at 7 any good? It's like a 6s cd lvl 1 laguna blade for 125 mana. Obviously you need the 16 units around somehow
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Unless theres a Brood/Prophet or maybe some other minion heavy hero around I doubt you'll get much value out of maxing soul rip anything but last. Definitely value point into it (previously you wanted two value points) but getting tomb and then decay seems by far safest choice.
That said, play around with it. If you feel you get >10 units worth of soul rips off often, go for it. I just doubt that happens often in practice without lots of minion heroes around.
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Changes to the Soul Rip made it so it is 1 point value skill, where before you've needed at least 2 points in it to be any good, now it shines at first level and even though you need less units than before, it now also deals less damage/healing than before on all levels but first.
Before my skill build at level 7 was something like 1-2-4-0(I rarely got the ulti as you didn't really have the mana to use it whenever you needed or some other skill would be better anyway), and after that I usually max Decay, situationally Soul Rip.
Right now, I have a feeling that 1-1-4-1 is great(you can skip Flesh Golem again, but it is buffed so it might be worth picking it at 6 now). I would still max Decay instead of Soul Rip as Decay is more spammable and always good where Soul Rip is situational, but Soul Rip have lower requirements now to do great damage so, I am not really sure.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think that it matters much how you skill build him after first 7-8 levels when you Tombstone is maxed, that is the time when he shines, and he will be good no matter if you max Decay or Soul Rip.
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I've been maxing tombstone first, then decay and skipping out on the ultimate till levels 10/11 to get both points at once. Tomb is obvious, maxing decay gives you a lower cooldown which ups the damage. Sure the stated damage number isn't high but each stack is -74 health so it adds up. And you have mana issues and you don't need the damage amp early from your ult. That's how I feel.
So i've basically been going support undying and he's now my most played hero with 35 matches and a 68.57% winrate.
What I'm still not sure of is what kind of boots to go for. I used to go treads, did a few games with tranquils/soul ring and recently been going arcanes since I've been picking up mekanasm a lot. Curious what people think are the right boots to go for him if any.
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United States47024 Posts
Arcanes, Tranquils, or plain Brown Boots are the only really reasonable boot choices most of the time. You aren't really a good autoattack hero, so the Treads upgrade is a waste, nor are you a practical chasing/engaging hero. Arcanes is still often the right choice even if you're NOT getting Mek--if you don't get Arcanes, you're still likely to want a mana item pretty soon (Bottle, SR, or Staff of Wizardry-based item).
Not sure I really agree with skipping Ultimate. It just does too much for you all at once in a fight (damage amp, slow, heal on enemy unit deaths). If anything, it's the FIRST rank that's the best because the slow and heal are fixed while only the damage amp % scales up 5% with every rank. It's not an ult that's hugely more effective at 2nd rank that warrants the 10/11 ulti over getting it immediately at 6.
The times it warrants skipping are when you get some weird scrappy games where you get a lot of small fights rather than big Tombstone fights--but if you're maxing Tombstone by 7, you want those big fights, and if you're getting them, Flesh Golem has similar CD and is definitely going to add more than another spell.
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I've been skipping it more due to his mana issues. But since I've been getting more arcane's recently I'll try getting it early. Been still experimenting a lot with him. Having a lot of success with him but with his item choices open ended, still trying to nail down general optimal itemization/skill builds.
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I am definitely skipping ultimate because of mana issues because I am getting Tranquil majority of the times as offlaner Undying. If I am support or any other lane, I am probably getting Arcane and I could get ultimate.
It happened to me multiple times that I don't have enough mana for decay/soul rip to kill somebody because I popped ultimate at the start.
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If you are having severe enough mana issues that you cant use his ultimate, you should probably be going arcanes.
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The movement slow from the ult has a massive range, 750 AOE and it is fairly strong slow as well, makes chasing down enemies at the end of fights feel way easier even before the damage amp. I used to skip the ult but I can't see the logic in skipping it the majority of the time anymore.
Even just a wand should usually let you get enough mana to cast a decay or soul rip multiple times through fights as undying really does tend to prolong the fights.
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Early and and nulls for a veil of discord later on is descent and helps somewhat.
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United States47024 Posts
He's not that good of a Veil carrier since he doesn't do much magic damage. Decay has a pretty low damage value and therefore isn't greatly enhanced since it's largely predicated on the Strength steal more than the actual damage. Soul Rip can have high values but often gets used for the heal because it's more efficient unless your team is trying to burst someone down, and Tombstone zombies, which are your main strength in midgame fights, do physical damage.
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Undying (offlane) is one of my most played heroes, yet I am often perplexed about which items to get. Standard items like blade mail and pipe require the right situation to work. Vanguard makes you tanky, but not that tanky. Arcane boots are good if your team is with you and pushing early, but pointless and expensive if not. AC is good, but takes an hour to build with Undying's farming speed. Urn is good, but will delay other stuff.
What are people's opinions on some less traditional items like:
- Mask of madness
- Necrobook
- Bloodstone
- S&Y
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On January 07 2015 00:18 HollywoodHolocaust wrote:Undying (offlane) is one of my most played heroes, yet I am often perplexed about which items to get. Standard items like blade mail and pipe require the right situation to work. Vanguard makes you tanky, but not that tanky. Arcane boots are good if your team is with you and pushing early, but pointless and expensive if not. AC is good, but takes an hour to build with Undying's farming speed. Urn is good, but will delay other stuff. What are people's opinions on some less traditional items like: - Mask of madness
- Necrobook
- Bloodstone
- S&Y
- Holy shit bad.
- Anywhere between pretty bad and really good.
- Bad.
- Bad.
Necro is a good first big item when you're looking to end the game early. You probably get Mek -> Necro3 and thats what you got when you push highground. It's pretty pointless in farm oriented games or games where you're on the backfoot and need to defend though.
You dont really need any particular items so you should always try for utility stuff. Auras can be good (Vlad, AC, Shivas), Hex/Halberd/Pipe/Necro/Blademail can be good. Mek should really be your go-to first item though, it fits so well with his playstyle and the tankiness is super good. I rarely see a reason to not start Arcanes -> Mek and then go from there into above mentioned items.
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C9 played him offlane yesterday and rushed euls. Not really sure what the synergy is there but it was interesting
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Those items really dont fit on undying imo, if you want those items you are better off playing other hero's.
vlads, veil or mek > mom (aoe armour,& lifesteal & manaregen & vlads works on zombies too)
Rod of Aui. Armlet > S&Y (garanteed aui slow instead of a proc & has synergy with bloodlusted zombies | armlet is costeffective and free armour)
Aghs, crimson or Shiva's > Necrobook (all three inhance teamfight capabilities more then a necro)
Skadi/hot/linkens/hex > Bloodstone
If you want more solo killpotential on a solo offlane undying, then I suggest that manaboot+dagon+blink/force is better alternative (bone7 trolled with that in a promatch a couple of weeks ago): Dagon lvl 1+soulrip lvl4+fleshgolem= (400*460)*~1,3=about 1150 single target damage pretty early on. Or dual targets for enhancing your tombstone's effectiveness.
E: If you absolutely want a rightclick undying then i suggest : Pt's+armlet+vlads+molnjir (enough early EHP, fast hitter with some procs for a descent price which should be farmable by undying). Dotabuff also shows that armlet has a higher winrate then average so its certainly worth the gold.
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On January 07 2015 01:01 Nevuk wrote:
C9 played him offlane yesterday and rushed euls. Not really sure what the synergy is there but it was interesting
Eul and/or Atos are really good on him. Eul obviously among better items in the game right now, and he desperately needs some kind of disable.
I've tried Eul + Atos combination, and if enemy doesn't have some sort of escape mechanic he is just dead. He can't just tp away from you because now you have Euls and when you place Tombstone and do Atos + Eul + Atos combo, he got like 5 Zombies on him together with you. You have a lot of HP and healing and enormous mana pool and you can pretty much kill anyone.
About standard items for him outside of Euls and Atos, I am not sure about Meka with increased mana cost, he has mana problems even without it. Other items that are good on him are Necrobook, Vlads, Blademail, Force Staff, Pipe and after that some luxury items like Shiva and Hex.
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FYI, just tried it: pt's+armlet+vlads with a dazzle on my team, felt ok that game because the timings of undying, dazzle heal and the armlet were pretty similar. And even if i screwed up the toggles, dazzle was there to save my ass anyway;)
Dont know what the higher mmr guys think about this, but as a duo it felt pretty doable.
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United States47024 Posts
If you're gonna get Armlet on one of those heroes, it may as well be the Dazzle getting the Armlet himself.
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On January 07 2015 04:11 TheYango wrote:
If you're gonna get Armlet on one of those heroes, it may as well be the Dazzle getting the Armlet himself.
Ahaha well said.
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If people are building Eul's how are they building into it? I feel like when I go for an early Eul's I'm left with a very small HP pool & no armor that can be tough to work around. If fights happen 5v5 and you can get big Decays off it's not bad, but if the fights are at all scrappy then I feel paper thin and the +4 or +8 str from a decay doesn't really seem to make the difference. Urn is an obvious potential build up, but if someone on my team is already getting it is there anything else I should/could go for?
The other thing I'm curious about with undying is how to better bully your lane. Decay is obviously a very powerful tool against melee carries, but I'm not really sure how to use it for a good long term benefit. If I only cast it once or something then it doesn't really apply much pressure, but if I spam it I will exert influence for just a short while (maybe a minute or so) until the stacks run off then the melee carry just comes back and I don't really have much left to pressure with. Arcane boots solves that to a big extent, but until then I'm not really sure what way I am supposed to be approaching things.
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I know bone7 goes euls, but all those replays are gone so I'm not sure how he goes about it.
Whenever I get items on undying, none of them feel spectacularly effective.
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On January 21 2015 03:49 Logo wrote:
If people are building Eul's how are they building into it? I feel like when I go for an early Eul's I'm left with a very small HP pool & no armor that can be tough to work around. If fights happen 5v5 and you can get big Decays off it's not bad, but if the fights are at all scrappy then I feel paper thin and the +4 or +8 str from a decay doesn't really seem to make the difference. Urn is an obvious potential build up, but if someone on my team is already getting it is there anything else I should/could go for?
The other thing I'm curious about with undying is how to better bully your lane. Decay is obviously a very powerful tool against melee carries, but I'm not really sure how to use it for a good long term benefit. If I only cast it once or something then it doesn't really apply much pressure, but if I spam it I will exert influence for just a short while (maybe a minute or so) until the stacks run off then the melee carry just comes back and I don't really have much left to pressure with. Arcane boots solves that to a big extent, but until then I'm not really sure what way I am supposed to be approaching things.
I can only state my own mediocre experiences as why undying sometimes works well as an solo offlaner in my pubs. Take the info as you please.
How i think undying works
1. The tombstone is the defining skill of undying in 6.83 and therefore I max it first in 6.83 (used to be different);
2. Undying works well against low hp trilanes and is less effective against higher HPpool trilanes imo. I think that's because the 100/200/300/400 deathlust threshold for spawning zombies which you should reach sooner against lower HP hero's;
3. Thats why it seems pretty clear that the later the game goes, the more HP you will be facing and the less usefull the tombstone and undying will become without items or synergy with other hero's etc;
4. To be effective with undying your laninggoal imo seems to be to get 2 out of 3 trilane hero's constantly under or close to the threshold from the tombstone. As a general guideline i'd say that aiming at a double/triple kill attempt around a lvl3 tombstone (at hero lvl 5, 6 or 7) is a nice way of going about. You decay targets you want to keep close to the threshold, thats basically it. Eventually you pop the tombstome, decay+maybe an ultimate, wait for a zombiepocalypse and soulrip 1 target. You can also choose to use the soulrip on the highest HP hero to get their HP below the threshold so that all three hero's are below the threshold, maybe gambling on a triple kill (which can be done multiple games in a row if you get favorable trilanes).
Items based on the above
a. Lets just focus on that first most important snowball event during the laningstage. Vlads boosts the outputdamage of zombies and heros and has some synergy with undyings ultimate. I think it is a core item during the midgame if no one else gets it. Because undying does not have the highest basearmour a rob (with a stick) is really nice and core during the laningstage.
b. a 4 and 6 second cooldown on spells/nukes means staying alive for that last decay can be gamechanging, so tanking up in whatever way possible is never a bad idea. Besides that, any item that helps improving the effectiveness of the tombstone, undying and allies seems a great choice (ie. thats why i didnt dismiss the idea of armlet on undying);
c. After that i'd say almost any item or boots can work well on undying. Even a dagon can work wonders just to get people under the zombiethreshold or even slowed so they die sooner or cant escape, simple as that. Thats why imo it doesnt really matter what itembuild you go for so long as it benefits the team and preferably your tombstone/teamfight combo.
d. I do think an euls seems very situational as it singles an enemy or yourself out of a fight, but doesnt enhance the effectiveness of your spells at the timing undying should be the strongest hero in the game (except maybe manapoolwise, but clarities and your boots of choice can solve most manaproblems anyway).
Closing thought: As an example, my most fun snowballed games were against drow+venge trilanes or similar iirc. Undying also good in teamfights/deathballdrafts, but the lower the HP pool the more fun and influence you will have with undying in general.
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I still see almost no reason to not go Arcane -> Mek 90% or more of the games. You cant buy farming items because you cant farm and you dont do anything with right click items. Mana items are nice and all but being able to cast 6234 spells doesnt matter much when you have no HP and no survivability. And honestly arcanes goes a long way either way.
You want to be in the middle of things but compared to the alternatives (primarily blademail and vanguard) you just have nowhere close to as much impact as a Mek. And any other survivability item feels very lackluster.
After mek and arcanes just get whatever your team needs the most. Be that auras, a hex, pushing items like pipe or necro, you can be the one to get it for your team. Items mean very little for your own hero after Mek.
Also to some extend I think talking items the wrong idea with this hero. You need to get shit done in your lane. After like 250 games I'd say nothing comes close to as good as going duo offlane. Solo you're not strong enough to contest most of the times and you fall off way too quickly compared to other offlaners. Safelane support is shit too because you're not fighting anyone and the toolkit isnt good at zoning out an offlaner either. If you do duo offlane you're almost guaranteed to end up in a fighting scenario, and thats what you want. And if they dont fight you then you already won a victory right there. I've done duo offlanes with stupid partners like Zeus or Clinkz but dont care, as long as it forces the enemy to either fight you or give up their safelane farm. I'll win the lane in a vast majority of the times myself and long as theres fights starting no matter who my partner is.
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On January 22 2015 10:10 Kreb wrote:
I still see almost no reason to not go Arcane -> Mek 90% or more of the games. You cant buy farming items because you cant farm and you dont do anything with right click items. Mana items are nice and all but being able to cast 6234 spells doesnt matter much when you have no HP and no survivability. And honestly arcanes goes a long way either way.
You want to be in the middle of things but compared to the alternatives (primarily blademail and vanguard) you just have nowhere close to as much impact as a Mek. And any other survivability item feels very lackluster.
After mek and arcanes just get whatever your team needs the most. Be that auras, a hex, pushing items like pipe or necro, you can be the one to get it for your team. Items mean very little for your own hero after Mek.
Also to some extend I think talking items the wrong idea with this hero. You need to get shit done in your lane. After like 250 games I'd say nothing comes close to as good as going duo offlane. Solo you're not strong enough to contest most of the times and you fall off way too quickly compared to other offlaners. Safelane support is shit too because you're not fighting anyone and the toolkit isnt good at zoning out an offlaner either. If you do duo offlane you're almost guaranteed to end up in a fighting scenario, and thats what you want. And if they dont fight you then you already won a victory right there. I've done duo offlanes with stupid partners like Zeus or Clinkz but dont care, as long as it forces the enemy to either fight you or give up their safelane farm. I'll win the lane in a vast majority of the times myself and long as theres fights starting no matter who my partner is.
Heh any dual lane just rapes :D
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United States15275 Posts
What's the best general dual lane for an offlane Undying? Venomancer? KotL?
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On January 22 2015 14:56 CosmicSpiral wrote:
What's the best general dual lane for an offlane Undying? Venomancer? KotL?
My preference are heroes that can force fights with some kind of lockdown. If it's a farming hero that uses the farm and scales well into midgame thats a bonus too. As an example you could for example grab a strong hero like Razor with him, but the problem is neither Undy nor Razor lock a hero down. It would be pretty much impossible for any lane to fight into that, but at the same time everyone is just gonna be able to walk away from you whenever you want a fight. If the lane ends up at their tower you might have a hard time using the fact that you're much stronger.
Some heroes makes fighting easier like ESpirit, Skywrath, Veno, Ogre. They provide the lockdown and you provide the means to win just about any fight. While these can all work well and are definitely solid options, the general problem with them are that none of them uses the farm super good. Winning the lane is good and all that, but there needs to be a follow up plan. So it puts some pressure on you to continue to snowball because your heroes fall off. If your mid and safelane farmer isnt having the best time of their lives, you might just end up with a won lane but unable to capitalize off it. If I ever see something like a Undy+Veno in my lane as safelane farmer, my advice would often be to just let them have their lane, let them get a tower if necessary and focus on winning the other lanes.
Another option is to just put a solid farming hero in the lane with undying. Heroes that use the farm better. Could be a Necro is Viper for max aids. QoP or Troll are very solid options and both are pretty good at forcing fights. These 4 would definitely be among my favourites. If the enemy safelane farmer is some kind of melee you can often also put your own melee carry (PA, Sven, Slark, Void, CK, you name it) in the lane too with good result. All of them have some kind of lockdown to start fights with. But its harder to make that work against strong ranged enemy safelane farmers.
I obviously havent play all these lanes but thats kinda how I see it. You want lockdown to complement your lacking lockdown. And if possible you also want the partner to scale well with the farm he supposedly will get. But most times im just happy to get anything with me. If I get a support like Ogre i'll take the farm myself and try to make use of it. I get my Mek early and dive towers whenever I can to keep snowballing and get objectives. If I get a ranged farming hero like Clinkz or Luna or something else stupid we're probably not gonna get many kills and it's definitely not ideal. But normally I can still assure they're the ones farming and not the enemy. And hopefully they make good use of it.
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I have had nice games with roaming spirit breaker (support) and solo offlane undying. It felt like best of both worlds, undying way ahead in experience against the trilane and a hard to spot initiationcharge was all he needed (if sb initiates its a duallane, sort of i guess).
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I ended up using the advice here and some that I saw on reddit and it's been going well.
The general idea I picked up was to focus a bit more heavily on armor than is common as there's some great cheap armor items to do just that. So the general item progression being 2xRoPs -> Tranqs + Basilius + wand -> Mek -> Eul's. I tend to grab the Eul's sobi mask before building mek for the mana regen which helps with sustaining soul rips or using decays to fish for tombstones. The extra focus on armor really gives you strong mid-game presence that doesn't drop off quite as fast.
I feel like arcanes can be a bit of a trap after playing around more. They're pretty expensive for mana for a hero that wants to focus on things so early in the game. Yeah it's nice for spamming decay & Soul Rip, but early on those abilities have longer cooldowns and the boots offer no survival for Undying which can make all the difference in what you're able to do early on. Even without a larger mana pool undying has enough to drop a full combo with multiple decays in the 7-10 range. Arcanes mostly seems to offer some mana sustain + the ability at 11+ to really hammer the decays home, but that's sort of a late timing and if you're building another strong mana item (like Eul's) then it's going to start coming online around then.
It's probably far better for your 2nd support to get arcanes and you leech off them or just make do with other mana items that offer defensive bonuses. I think I'm going to leave arcanes only for those games where my enemies have some devastating form of mana burn I need to worry about.
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I think you should have manapoolproblems to efficiently pop the mek & using your other spells during 1 battle, no? Mek costs about 225 mana and manaboot grants you 335 extra manapool in total during 1 fight. I think you should allways try manaboots if you go for mek, just for the manapool enhancement in 1 fight alone. Im not saying other boots then manaboots are bad on him, just less efficient together with a mek. Food for thought
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I like undying a lot, when I play it my usual build is to skip decay and instead go 3 in soul rip and 2 in tombstone at level 5, that allows some very easy kills every time your tombstone is up (or even in between if there are lots of units around for some reason, like radiant top when big camp is pulled + both creepwaves are near), makes soulrip a +-300 damage nuke after reduction every 12 seconds, so you soulrip someone, then 5-6 seconds later you put your tombstone and do a 2nd soulrip.
I find soulrip better in practice than decay early game.
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On January 22 2015 21:04 govie wrote:
I think you should have manapoolproblems to efficiently pop the mek & using your other spells during 1 battle. Mek costs about 225 mana and manaboot grants you 335 extra manapool in total during 1 fight. I think you should allways try manaboots if you go for mek, just for the manapool enhancement in 1 fight alone. Im not saying other boots then manaboots are bad on him, just less efficient together with a mek. Food for thought
At 7 without arcanes you have enough mana for Mek + Ult + Tombstone + Decay + Soul Rip with like 50 mana left over and pretty good regen (2.6 or 3.5 depending on if you buy the second sobi mask early). Of course you then have wand on top of that. So even with a fast farm up you're not getting overly strapped for mana for a single fight.
Plus the savings of tranquils over arcanes puts you several hundred gold ahead depending on how you'd be building up and after mek you can focus more on something that offers a larger mana pool & sustain (like Eul's).
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On January 22 2015 21:14 MrCon wrote:
I like undying a lot, when I play it my usual build is to skip decay and instead go 3 in soul rip and 2 in tombstone at level 5, that allows some very easy kills every time your tombstone is up (or even in between if there are lots of units around for some reason, like radiant top when big camp is pulled + both creepwaves are near), makes soulrip a +-300 damage nuke after reduction every 12 seconds, so you soulrip someone, then 5-6 seconds later you put your tombstone and do a 2nd soulrip.
I find soulrip better in practice than decay early game.
Umm decay is like what make you deceptively squishy though. I mean they think that you're an easy target over the course of the skirmish, but suddenly they have no HP.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 22 2015 20:50 Logo wrote:
I feel like arcanes can be a bit of a trap after playing around more. They're pretty expensive for mana for a hero that wants to focus on things so early in the game. Yeah it's nice for spamming decay & Soul Rip, but early on those abilities have longer cooldowns and the boots offer no survival for Undying which can make all the difference in what you're able to do early on. Even without a larger mana pool undying has enough to drop a full combo with multiple decays in the 7-10 range. Arcanes mostly seems to offer some mana sustain + the ability at 11+ to really hammer the decays home, but that's sort of a late timing and if you're building another strong mana item (like Eul's) then it's going to start coming online around then.
He's also a hero centered around early push timings to be effective though, and that's where Arcanes are by far the most effective boots to have--not just for yourself, but for mana-strapped heroes on your team as well. Even up to a 3rd or 4th pair, they have high effectiveness in those situations.
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Yeah I definitely can see that, but at the same time I feel like what makes Undying great at pushing also gets a lot better with the extra 4 armor and hp sustain and potentially you're getting to Mek faster so you can start that pressure even earlier. It just feels like every enemy level matters so much for Undying because the extra hp from leveling up can make the difference between deathlust and not. Whereas when I go arcanes I'll use them decently early, but they feel more for like level 9 and 10 when Decay has a short cooldown and high mana cost.
Though I think I could see arcane boots being worth it against magic heavy line-ups as well where the armor isn't going to offer much or if it really makes the difference for your allies.
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adding to the dual offlane thought: that is how me and a friend of mine play as well (mostly Undying + Viper), and it works out great most of the time. The enemy cant just stay passive due to Vipers harass, which forces them to fight and Undying is happy. Another nice combo is Warlock: tombstone + early 3 levels in upheaval can be surprisingly effective, and the teamfight in the midgame is disgusting Warlock is also a hero that can use the farm well I think.
just my 2 cents
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Question: Do 2 tombstones deal double damage and double slow? Does it add up (refresherthoughts for 2 long cd spells, i never tried it)?
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Zombies attack debuff fully stacks yes. But a refresher for that looks bad to me at first glance.
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On January 23 2015 00:12 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 21:14 MrCon wrote:
I like undying a lot, when I play it my usual build is to skip decay and instead go 3 in soul rip and 2 in tombstone at level 5, that allows some very easy kills every time your tombstone is up (or even in between if there are lots of units around for some reason, like radiant top when big camp is pulled + both creepwaves are near), makes soulrip a +-300 damage nuke after reduction every 12 seconds, so you soulrip someone, then 5-6 seconds later you put your tombstone and do a 2nd soulrip.
I find soulrip better in practice than decay early game. Umm decay is like what make you deceptively squishy though. I mean they think that you're an easy target over the course of the skirmish, but suddenly they have no HP.
Yeah I know, leveling decay early is a mana pit tho =)
But that was just my build, I know it's not popular but try it once or twice.
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On January 23 2015 06:12 MrCon wrote:
Zombies attack debuff fully stacks yes. But a refresher for that looks bad to me at first glance.
I know there is/was a cheese play with Naga Siren where you Song -> Refresher Tombstone so there's hordes of zombies everywhere when the fight starts.
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On January 23 2015 06:27 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 06:12 MrCon wrote:
Zombies attack debuff fully stacks yes. But a refresher for that looks bad to me at first glance. I know there is/was a cheese play with Naga Siren where you Song -> Refresher Tombstone so there's hordes of zombies everywhere when the fight starts.
`
Dazzle heal after song ends, 980 damage to all heros every 6 seconds, moehaha they are all gonna cry
I think broodmother could maybe be good with undying in a duallane as the nuke of undying scales well with more spiders on the field (free dagon really early).
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Playing undying has a lot of item flexibility depending on enemy composition and its pretty easy to get a good start (in pubs at least) because most of the time players severely underestimate the damage decay + tombstone pre- level 6 dual offlanes can do. Early game, arcanes + basi ring + magic stick should give you enough mana sustain, any of you peeps go soul ring into bloodstone? Would like to hear your experience with that.
Not sure about going Mek after Arcanes is the optimal build these days with the added mana cost. Of course it's always good if your team is heavily team fight orientated and that you're best hero on the team to go Mek. While considering Mek, you can always pick up the chainmail @ the side shop for the additional armour and consider blademail. I've had a lot of success going Aghs or necrobook too.
Getting hood into pipe is good, getting vanguard into crimson guard is also viable. Tanking and staying alive in ulti form with decay + soul rip spam + tombstone is more than enough to win you the fight if you don't have incompetent team mates.
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By the time an undying can get a refresher you're either winning hard and you could buy a battlefury and do just as well or your tombstone is already way past its prime in usefulness.
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Krebs heropool is funny, most play all the patchhero's but kreb has been playing undying and spiritbreaker for years
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Thats actually true. I pretty much always (in every game I play) like the do well with "less liked" anti-fotm stuff.
I had whatever 300-400 games of Ogre before he became fotm. Now I don't like how they destroyed his damage. I preferred the old one and not the new 15ARMORAND1200HPANDBASE10REGENLVL1OGRE. Getting Agh back then no one played him was fun because people didnt expect the crazy damage and would whine when you randomly kill enemy carries in 2sec. :p And I had some 150 games of Centaur offlane before he was almost ever picked in pro games and pro teams would still do random position 1 centaurs (wtf). He was an offlaner from day1 to me, just as spirit breaker is. And I feel certain that whenever SB becomes pro game material it will be offlane too.
My roaming/offlane lvl1 boots first into mek Huskar and support Morphling are still in development.
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I think Meka on Undying is still good, but yeah, maybe it is situational now.
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On January 23 2015 22:24 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think Meka on Undying is still good, but yeah, maybe it is situational now.
I think most of the heroes that always went for Meka, has it as situational right now because of increased mana cost.
I really like Eul and Atos on Undying, tried it out few times and it work wonders. Atos is also situational(even though benefits for Undying are almost always good), but Eul is great.
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On January 23 2015 21:51 Kreb wrote:
Thats actually true. I pretty much always (in every game I play) like the do well with "less liked" anti-fotm stuff.
I had whatever 300-400 games of Ogre before he became fotm. Now I don't like how they destroyed his damage. I preferred the old one and not the new 15ARMORAND1200HPANDBASE10REGENLVL1OGRE. Getting Agh back then no one played him was fun because people didnt expect the crazy damage and would whine when you randomly kill enemy carries in 2sec. :p And I had some 150 games of Centaur offlane before he was almost ever picked in pro games and pro teams would still do random position 1 centaurs (wtf). He was an offlaner from day1 to me, just as spirit breaker is. And I feel certain that whenever SB becomes pro game material it will be offlane too.
My roaming/offlane lvl1 boots first into mek Huskar and support Morphling are still in development.
I got approx 170 ogre games before the aghschange, i didnt like it and havent played him much eversince. You should try clockwerksupport or atleast a more utility oriented clockwerk, setup kills like a batrider from lvl 2 and onwards, TQ's are basically enough and cheap, euls before aghs grants 2 setups instead of one. It is gonna be the new meta with swm in a supportcombo (82 games and a 61% winrate until now with utilityclock, 1 of the most fun heros in the game).
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Support clock has a lot of weaknessess though.
Terrible at zoning heroes in the lane
Which means he is kind of useless before level 6
Slow farmer for a support. Usually nice to get some extra gold when possible but don't want to spend too much time doing so.
Very level dependant in general. Level 1 cog is good but the other spells really need levels to be good. It's not like vengefuls stun that is super strong from level 1.
It's really difficult do get all your spells off without decent farm. You will usually have to play very defensive as a support clock so getting in people's face with battery assault is very unlikely.
He has the same weaknessess as Omniknight. But Omniknights spells are so much better than Clocks for a support. Even if clock and omni are played very differently I just don't see the reason to pick Clock support over Omni + a different initiator. Like Omni support + Storm mid.
Teams has been experimenting with Clock support but it almost always end up failing, it's just not that strong. Lose too much early game for what he does later.
Edit: Also don't know how an undying thread went to discussing ogre and clock but try to stay on topic I guess. Including myself ._.
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I was like "Did I open the right thread? What the hell am I reading?" ROFL.
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I usually just get a RoB and a stout shield when i play offlane undying. I think he is a decent offlaner, but really shines in a dual lane. I usually just get auras on him. Vlads, shivas, and also have been liking crimson guard on him too. I almost always get arcane's on him.
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1 point in q then max tomb and soulrip before ultimate. Go arane and straight refresher to double tomb. All other items are situational
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never thought about refresher. ill give it a try
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I really don't think Refresher rush is good on Undying.
It's like 5k gold which could be Atos + Mek. Or Pipe + Vlads. Which both seem so much stronger.
Undying wants to fight a lot early game, so it just makes a lot more sense to go for early game fighting items. Undying's farming pace is really slow. Fighting with just arcanes is way more risky than arcanes + mek. You will win the fights a lot more often which leads to towergold / map control. Destroying towers to reduce the mapcontrol is so big. So not spending gold with a hero that needs to fight a lot early game just feels like a bad build. The recipe itself almost cost the same as a Mek ._.
Skillbuild is a bit more flexible. I just think Decay scales better than Soul rip. It's very rarely you get to rip from more than 10-12 target, so you don't need that to increase. The CD reduction is nice but it's the same for Decay and Decay has a bit more damage scaling.
1-1-3 should always be the opening build imo. Then after that it's a bit more situational.
Arcanes + Magic Stick + Basi -> Mek -> Euls or Atos. I think Undying is one of the few heroes where Atos is really good.
Shivas / Vlads / Crimson Guard / Pipe / Necro 3 / Blademail / Force staff all are viable pickups.
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On February 03 2015 03:01 75 wrote:
never thought about refresher. ill give it a try
sure! IN PUB you ll like zero farm or something really close to it.
just invest is something you gonna need 100%.
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This post is directed for Undying offlane.
The change to tombstone zombies in 6.84 eliminated a good amount of undying's counters. As well as many of this lane counter's has been untouched such as Antimage, Faceless, and Drow. Lotus Orb is a great Undying item and a good alternative to Eul's (because that item got nerfed). Solar Crest seems to be a good situation item. However Guardian Greaves might be a good LATE game item, but due to the cost as well as Tranquil/soul ring and Trends/Bottle being too good on undying, I don't myself picking up Guardian Greaves. Other late game items should be priorities such as Shiva's and Aghs over Guardian Greaves. The whole "Undying is useless after 20 mins" will be invalidate. The change to kill bounties will keep Undying relevant throughout the game.
If Undying isn't nerfed (directly or indirectly) he will become the nightmare of pubs. The only viable counter in this new 6.84 meta will be Slark, Kotl and Nyx.
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^ my friend and I ran hohohaha + undying offlane for about 7 games in 6.83, they were all easy wins.
just a point of curiosity, does howl works on zombies?
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Just realized that Undying has been buffed in another way. Zombies don't have ~40 HP anymore, but 2 HP and Heroes are dealing 2 damage to them while creeps are dealing 1, so they need 2 hits. If you have just Headress or Mekansm that has regen aura, your Zombies cannot die to creeps anymore because they are getting back to the full HP the moment creeps hit them. That is pretty big as creeps were killing Zombies way too fast before this.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 02 2015 21:36 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Just realized that Undying has been buffed in another way. Zombies don't have ~40 HP anymore, but 2 HP and Heroes are dealing 2 damage to them while creeps are dealing 1, so they need 2 hits. If you have just Headress or Mekansm that has regen aura, your Zombies cannot die to creeps anymore because they are getting back to the full HP the moment creeps hit them. That is pretty big as creeps were killing Zombies way too fast before this.
I am fairly certain Zombies just don't have HP anymore. They just die in fixed amount of hits and this is the way to show amount of hits it takes to kill them.
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On May 02 2015 23:04 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 21:36 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Just realized that Undying has been buffed in another way. Zombies don't have ~40 HP anymore, but 2 HP and Heroes are dealing 2 damage to them while creeps are dealing 1, so they need 2 hits. If you have just Headress or Mekansm that has regen aura, your Zombies cannot die to creeps anymore because they are getting back to the full HP the moment creeps hit them. That is pretty big as creeps were killing Zombies way too fast before this. I am fairly certain Zombies just don't have HP anymore. They just die in fixed amount of hits and this is the way to show amount of hits it takes to kill them.
It works like HP though because regen kicks in the moment they take hits from creeps and creeps can't kill them anymore. You can do double or triple stacks in the radiant jungle with all three camps and then place one Tombstone to clear all three of them at the same time if you have Headdress.
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Ye, if you buy headdress as your 1st item you can jungle from level 1. In my first attempt I managed to get Guardian Greaves + Magic Wand and level 11 in 15 minutes. If you practice your route better you might get even more.
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On May 02 2015 05:25 evanthebouncy! wrote:
^ my friend and I ran hohohaha + undying offlane for about 7 games in 6.83, they were all easy wins.
just a point of curiosity, does howl works on zombies?
No, howl only works for unit you control. Zombies are uncontrollable.
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i expect undying's greatest fan EG.Fear to be making ppd draft this hero over and over
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On May 03 2015 00:07 rabidch wrote:
i expect undying's greatest fan EG.Fear to be making ppd draft this hero over and over
To be honest I expect him to become standard ban/pick material in the current patch. Already saw some matches where he has been first banned.
Buffs together with new items made him a top tier support in my opinion, he also has the best win ration right now.
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=patch_6.84
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On May 02 2015 23:23 Altsa wrote:
Ye, if you buy headdress as your 1st item you can jungle from level 1. In my first attempt I managed to get Guardian Greaves + Magic Wand and level 11 in 15 minutes. If you practice your route better you might get even more.
build order?
how do you not run out of mana
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On May 03 2015 01:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 23:23 Altsa wrote:
Ye, if you buy headdress as your 1st item you can jungle from level 1. In my first attempt I managed to get Guardian Greaves + Magic Wand and level 11 in 15 minutes. If you practice your route better you might get even more. build order? how do you not run out of mana
Haven't tried it but you probably aren't spamming anything, just stack creep camps and then farm them with Tombstone, that's my guess.
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you can farm 3 camps at once with a high level tombstone, but its inefficient imo. I used to do that sort of tactics.
Edit:
Just looking at the last ten promatches, the supportbuild that looks most impressive is a general supportbuild with manaboot+wand+mek. If you face a spiritbreaker or similar, euls+wand+mek+naked boot.
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Ok I was wrong, after playing some games I realized that Guardian Greaves are ridiculous on Undying. I didn't think that the mana cost was 0. Guardian Graves negates the huge mana cost that mech has, as well as the Euls mana cost nerf. I believe that the go-to build should be Wand, OoV, Tranquils, Bottle, Mech, Euls, then Guardian. After that pick up whatever item will beneficial to your team the most.
I would like to see some Undying + Dazzle offensive dual lanes in the pro-scene but I doubt it would happen.
I am a dirty pre-6.94 Undying picker but now he feels absurd.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 03 2015 03:42 AkipAkip wrote:
Ok I was wrong, after playing some games I realized that Guardian Greaves are ridiculous on Undying. I didn't think that the mana cost was 0. Guardian Graves negates the huge mana cost that mech has, as well as the Euls mana cost nerf. I believe that the go-to build should be Wand, OoV, Tranquils, Bottle, Mech, Euls, then Guardian. After that pick up whatever item will beneficial to your team the most.
I would like to see some Undying + Dazzle offensive dual lanes in the pro-scene but I doubt it would happen.
I am a dirty pre-6.94 Undying picker but now he feels absurd.
How will you handle your mana without arcanes with mek+euls though? Also, the last time i saw Undying+Dazzle lane game lasted 9 minutes, kek.
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doesnt the zombiechange affect the combo negatively or nonexistent?
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Why get euls on undying? Self euls to safely apply the damage amp is ok, but it seems like a lot to spend on an item when that $ can go towards shivas or solar crest or atos. Similar to mek, I think if you're going greaves you want to build it early when the flat heal/armor/regen is more significant. Getting a couple cheap items before greaves makes sense, but euls is pretty expensive for an active that doesn't set anything up and for mana regen that you don't really need with wand/arcanes/later greaves.
I also don't understand the logic of tranqs on the hero. They help you sustain in lane at the very beginning of the game when your mana pool is low, but after the 8-10 minute mark arcanes are a lot more valuable - the larger mana pool helps a lot when you have the cooldowns to use decay/soul rip 3 or 4 times in a fight. Soul rip+being ult'd in fights also solves your hp sustain issue.
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to interrupt the charge of spiritbreaker i guess, else they went standard manaboot in the data i screened.
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On May 03 2015 04:14 lolfail9001 wrote:
How will you handle your mana without arcanes with mek+euls though? Also, the last time i saw Undying+Dazzle lane game lasted 9 minutes, kek.
I get a bottle, with runes spawning at both sides it's not every hard to keep your mana up. Some people do prefer trends + bottles for the stat switching but I personally like tranquils because it's dirt cheap and the moment speed helps you rotate around the map to gank. For me at least I prefer Tranquils + bottle than Arcane Boots + Basilius which is commonly built.
On May 03 2015 04:32 fourthirds wrote:
Why get euls on undying? Self euls to safely apply the damage amp is ok, but it seems like a lot to spend on an item when that $ can go towards shivas or solar crest or atos. Similar to mek, I think if you're going greaves you want to build it early when the flat heal/armor/regen is more significant. Getting a couple cheap items before greaves makes sense, but euls is pretty expensive for an active that doesn't set anything up and for mana regen that you don't really need with wand/arcanes/later greaves.
I also don't understand the logic of tranqs on the hero. They help you sustain in lane at the very beginning of the game when your mana pool is low, but after the 8-10 minute mark arcanes are a lot more valuable - the larger mana pool helps a lot when you have the cooldowns to use decay/soul rip 3 or 4 times in a fight. Soul rip+being ult'd in fights also solves your hp sustain issue.
I get euls over atos to cancel any channeling/prevents blink escapes and the zombies will keep spawning while your target is in the air. Euls is great when initiating a smoke gank. I don't know i just always preferred it over atos. I usually try to get Shiva's right after and I still haven't tried out solar crest.
And at first I didn't understand the logic behind tranqs on undying but one game I built it (+bottle) and it seemed so much better than mana boots. It kind of like picking whether or not you want have full domination during the early game then have some mana issues later or just winning your lane and being fine with mana during the mid game.
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On May 03 2015 01:54 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 23:23 Altsa wrote:
Ye, if you buy headdress as your 1st item you can jungle from level 1. In my first attempt I managed to get Guardian Greaves + Magic Wand and level 11 in 15 minutes. If you practice your route better you might get even more. build order? how do you not run out of mana
You only use mana for Tombstone. It has 60 second cooldown and you have rather high int so you will regain a lot of the cost. You might run out of mana around 8-10 in game minutes. I did that practice in a solo lobby and I did not get a courier. In a normal game you most likely need to deliver yourself 1 clarity to regain your mana.
To put it short, you will not have mana problems.
If you are really lazy you can sit at the ancient camp from level one, use 1 Tombstone when the first ancients spawn at 00.30,
(ancients wont die), stack at 00.54, use tombstone instantly when it is off cooldown, stack again at 01.54, use tombstone again when it is off cooldown and repeat. This is a bit slower but I got level 9 and Guardian Greaves in 15 minutes.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Had opportunity to play the hero.... No way hero got this broken with just those buffs. It almost smells like a bug in a sense that his abilities do so fucking much damage.
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On May 03 2015 04:21 govie wrote:
doesnt the zombiechange affect the combo negatively or nonexistent?
The change means that you can no longer target zombies with Soul Rip and pointlessly heal them by accident. It does not mean that zombies are no longer damage/heal sources, as that would be ridiculous and would negate the obvious intended synergy of those two spells.
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On May 03 2015 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Had opportunity to play the hero.... No way hero got this broken with just those buffs. It almost smells like a bug in a sense that his abilities do so fucking much damage.
He was always ridiculous early. Decay is one of the strongest spells level 1 cause it drains your opponents strengths. And Tombstone is ridiculously good early levels before people can kill it fast.
I feel like it now more that the meta changes make him a lot stronger.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
zombie hp change also means if u have a headdress or any other healing aura, they cant be killed by creeps
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Played 4 games of undying last night, running offensive dual lanes, damn, they were not hard games.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 03 2015 10:04 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2015 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Had opportunity to play the hero.... No way hero got this broken with just those buffs. It almost smells like a bug in a sense that his abilities do so fucking much damage. He was always ridiculous early. Decay is one of the strongest spells level 1 cause it drains your opponents strengths. And Tombstone is ridiculously good early levels before people can kill it fast. I feel like it now more that the meta changes make him a lot stronger.
I meant ridiculous 25 minutes into the game.
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On May 03 2015 10:04 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2015 07:27 lolfail9001 wrote:
Had opportunity to play the hero.... No way hero got this broken with just those buffs. It almost smells like a bug in a sense that his abilities do so fucking much damage. He was always ridiculous early. Decay is one of the strongest spells level 1 cause it drains your opponents strengths. And Tombstone is ridiculously good early levels before people can kill it fast. I feel like it now more that the meta changes make him a lot stronger.
sniper/jugg/troll/axe were all exceptionally good picks vs dirge (kill tombstone fast or doesn't care about zombies), so 6.83 was a bit painful.
Also, did the jungling get patched? I only just tried it and it doesn't seem to work (first item headdress, zombies dont get healed).
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Ye, it seems like the jungling is patched. Was fun while it lasted. You can still somewhat clear ancient stacks after lvl 7, though.
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On May 04 2015 00:57 Altsa wrote:
Ye, it seems like the jungling is patched. Was fun while it lasted. You can still somewhat clear ancient stacks after lvl 7, though.
How if Zombies don't heal anymore?
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They fixed the headdress zombie regen in the patch yesterday. Too bad, that was fun.
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On May 04 2015 01:02 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 00:57 Altsa wrote:
Ye, it seems like the jungling is patched. Was fun while it lasted. You can still somewhat clear ancient stacks after lvl 7, though. How if Zombies don't heal anymore?
They still take 2 hits to kill. You need lvl 4 Tombstone and lvl 1 Flesh Golem. If you are lucky and you dont get granite golems you can clear it alone. Otherwise the ancients have too much hp to kill with 1 tombstone, so you need to wait the cooldown again. In a real game just ask a teammate to help clearing the stack so you wont waste too much time.
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Jesus people are jungling too often in pubs already but please why would you even consider jungling like one of the best laners in the game. Get to that offlane and make life hell for enemy carry. Always.
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time for a kreb +5k guide m8, certainly with all the new items Your SB guide was nice too (not standard mom etcetc).
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On May 04 2015 03:51 Kreb wrote:
Jesus people are jungling too often in pubs already but please why would you even consider jungling like one of the best laners in the game. Get to that offlane and make life hell for enemy carry. Always.
If you are playing against 3-lane with 2-3 stunners and/or silencers, you are the one who's life will turn into hell. Played enough Undying games to know that.
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On May 04 2015 03:53 govie wrote:time for a kreb +5k guide m8, certainly with all the new items Your SB guide was nice too (not standard mom etcetc).
Would be hard to make a guide when there would be nothing new in it. The hero is like way more about how you play (mostly in the first 10-15min) than about what items you build. I still think Arcane (even more so now) into most of the time Mek into general utility (theres like 10-15 viable items) still is the way to go though. Would be hard to explain exactly when to get what item too because they're so many. I could probably play the same game twice and build different items because more than one fits the situation. Though I prefer the 4pos undying that helps a better scaling laning partner getting off to a good start over the 3pos one which many seem to play. I remember making this from three consecutive pages of undying (39 games) prepatch, should be almost all duo offlane with a farming partner: http://i.imgur.com/s2RuZmU.png
On May 04 2015 05:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:
If you are playing against 3-lane with 2-3 stunners and/or silencers, you are the one who's life will turn into hell. Played enough Undying games to know that.
Obviously strong lanes happen. It does for every offlaner. Sometimes (its rare though!) you dont see a creep reaching the river before 5min of the game has passed. Sometimes you have to accept that your early game will be terrible. However jungling is not the answer unless you're a very strong jungler (bat, axe, etc). I dont know what would happen at lower levels of mmr if an offlaner would leave the lane empty, but at higher mmr the moment you leave to lane to loljungle then either
A) Supports would instantly rotate leaving their carry alone. Now your mid and/or safelane is being pressured hard by two free'd up supports while you sit in your jungle and their carry freefarms. Great.
B) They take your T1. Then they go to A.
They will almost always need two supps to keep you out of exp range. Doubt any solo supp can. So if only one supp stays you will still get exp and the odd last hit to make it worth it, if not more. If two supps both stay then your laning will be shit but they are also committing three heroes to shutting down an undying. Thats definitely not always a good idea, probably more often than not it isnt. Forcing supports to stay in lane isnt something that should be underestimated, quite the opposite.
But thats one of the main reasons why I like the duo offlanes so much more. You can pretty much always stay vs just about any tri. 2v3 is so much easier than 1v2 due to tombstone and decay both getting better against many targets, And while you might not kill them or win the lane you'll often disrupt their farm more than what the enemy offlane should do to your carry in the 1v2 situation on the other side of the map.
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undying #1 win rate this patch so far, like what happened?
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On May 04 2015 10:00 acie wrote:
undying #1 win rate this patch so far, like what happened?
no easy way to deal with tombstone really
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Expanding on what hariooo said, 6.84 changed zombies, so now zombies take 1 hit from a hero or two hits from a creep to kill rather than having 30 HP. This means that any AoE physical damage that used to mass murder them is now completely ineffectual, rendering what were once hard counters to tombstone like Bristleback quills and Alchemist acid spray useless.
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On the other hand, things like glaives got quite a bit better at clearing them early.
Either way Undy is bonkers. Anecdotally, he seems to scale much more smoothly past 10-15 minutes now.
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Check iLeague ban/picks. If its not first picked, its fist banned. Our patch of glory is finally arrived
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On May 04 2015 10:00 acie wrote:
undying #1 win rate this patch so far, like what happened?
It is mostly that his role has been made much better. You receive more gold for kills and less for creeps, and the rubber band effect has been reduced. This means he will receive more gold for his early aggression and is able to maintain it throughout the game where he would previously completely stall at 20 minutes.
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pick gyro, he's one of the only heroes that effectively deals with tombstone now
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On May 04 2015 19:18 Exoteric wrote:
pick gyro, he's one of the only heroes that effectively deals with tombstone now
Naga support -> ult to kill the tombstone?
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Biggest problem dealing with undying is he destroys dual lanes, and in low level pubs your trilanes destroy themselves.
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Somewhat random tidbit: I think Mango is a great item for undying during laning. He definitely appreciates extra regen, and the mana burst is very useful if you need to use a couple extra decays or if you used decay too much and need tombstone/soul rip immediately.
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On May 04 2015 19:47 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 19:18 Exoteric wrote:
pick gyro, he's one of the only heroes that effectively deals with tombstone now Naga support -> ult to kill the tombstone?
Not worth it imo, also zombies are not affected by song. Any natural deso users counters tombstone pretty hard. Tomb only has 5 armor. Weaver, Wraith King, and now TA. Ursa, and Gyro are also good at killing tombstone.
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On May 05 2015 03:55 xAdra wrote:
Somewhat random tidbit: I think Mango is a great item for undying during laning. He definitely appreciates extra regen, and the mana burst is very useful if you need to use a couple extra decays or if you used decay too much and need tombstone/soul rip immediately.
I've said this already, but Mango is quite good on few offlaners, it gives 1 HP regen and offlaners not named Dark Seer definitely have mana problems.
On May 05 2015 05:42 AkipAkip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 19:47 synapse wrote:On May 04 2015 19:18 Exoteric wrote:
pick gyro, he's one of the only heroes that effectively deals with tombstone now Naga support -> ult to kill the tombstone? Not worth it imo, also zombies are not affected by song. Any natural deso users counters tombstone pretty hard. Tomb only has 5 armor. Weaver, Wraith King, and now TA. Ursa, and Gyro are also good at killing tombstone.
Now that Zombies are buffed like this, Naga WITH Undying might actually work, it was very popular in DotA 1 in Philippines scene.
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Honestly the way to deal with undying is to not fight him. And I mean NOT FIGHT HIM. He cant force anyone out of lane as melee. Other melees he can force out of last hits but even that shouldnt happen 1v2 or 2v3. He cant solo kill with no stuns or slows. He cant force a fight since him dropping tomb is like the biggest "ima try to kill you now" sign. If he drops it, retreat and you likely get only 1 zombie spawned on you. And he'll push the wave to the safety of your T1.
Like with so many other high winrate heroes undying thrives on punishing people for overcommitting (hello WK/Omni/Necro constant high pub winrates). Lots of people even at high mmr dont consider the combined healing of a 2-3 man decay + a soul rip (can be upwards of 350 hp) and the fact that if you dont kill him fast you'll be fighting under a tomb. Even when playing against him as carry/supp in safelane people will initiate way way way more on him than they should.
Disregarding some very strong lane winner (typically not hard carries), dont fight him unless you're prepared to beat his current health + 300 while under a tomb. He is the hero thats pressured to get things done in lane, not your carry. Sit in lane, out-CS him, do free harass if possible but be extremely (extremely!) careful to fight him.
If he comes with a strong laning partner, be prepared to sac your lane. Dont feed, sac the lane if needed, let them get a tower if needed, try to win other lanes and recover as him and his laning partner hopefully falls off.
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On May 05 2015 07:12 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:42 AkipAkip wrote:On May 04 2015 19:47 synapse wrote:On May 04 2015 19:18 Exoteric wrote:
pick gyro, he's one of the only heroes that effectively deals with tombstone now Naga support -> ult to kill the tombstone? Not worth it imo, also zombies are not affected by song. Any natural deso users counters tombstone pretty hard. Tomb only has 5 armor. Weaver, Wraith King, and now TA. Ursa, and Gyro are also good at killing tombstone. Now that Zombies are buffed like this, Naga WITH Undying might actually work, it was very popular in DotA 1 in Philippines scene.
What's the point. Drop Tombstone, Song, wait for 6-7 zombies to spawn around every enemy hero, let song finish and have free "cc" (pathing) and a bunch of sustained damage on everyone?
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Quick question - do you need to build Undying as a tank-type hero? I just started playing him and using Torte's Guides, he seems to keep pretty low HP pool throughout most games - high on armor, especially with Shivas, but can be focusable. Is it really just a positioning thing and he shouldn't need HP for utility?
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On May 06 2015 04:43 BoZiffer wrote:
Quick question - do you need to build Undying as a tank-type hero? I just started playing him and using Torte's Guides, he seems to keep pretty low HP pool throughout most games - high on armor, especially with Shivas, but can be focusable. Is it really just a positioning thing and he shouldn't need HP for utility?
Kreb is a 5k player and said a couple of days ago:
On May 04 2015 09:31 Kreb wrote:Would be hard to make a guide when there would be nothing new in it. The hero is like way more about how you play (mostly in the first 10-15min) than about what items you build. I still think Arcane (even more so now) into most of the time Mek into general utility (theres like 10-15 viable items) still is the way to go though. Would be hard to explain exactly when to get what item too because they're so many. I could probably play the same game twice and build different items because more than one fits the situation. Though I prefer the 4pos undying that helps a better scaling laning partner getting off to a good start over the 3pos one which many seem to play. I remember making this from three consecutive pages of undying (39 games) prepatch, should be almost all duo offlane with a farming partner: http://i.imgur.com/s2RuZmU.png
Read his post on the page before this one, it got alot of info.
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Yup, it is a great post. I pretty much follow the Arcanes --> Mek and later Greaves path. I guess my question is if I should pick up raw HP items in addition so that I can't be bursted and my ult is more useful for longer, say a casual vit booster or a full on Atos or something and act like a front liner or just kind of keep weaving my way in and around the team fights.
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The strenght steal from decay makes armor stronger (against physical damage) and allows you to focus more on utility items. But against magic heavy line ups, going for HP increasing items is good way to go but i would prefer urn, a faster agha or even an octa core over atos.
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I'm also finding myself getting 100-0'd quite a lot in midgame fights. Usually you go into the midgame as a huge threat but also a big target, and you kind of need to be in the frontline to get a good tombstone and maximise your ult. A lot of his survivability comes from things that either build up over time, like decay and his ult heal, or actives that he needs to cast like soul rip and mek. He's surprisingly fragile if he gets locked down at the start of a fight.
Casual cloak for later glimmer cape, urn, casual bracer or either booster all seem like reasonable investments. Being bulky is probably more important as the 3pos core undying than the 4pos support.
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On May 05 2015 21:59 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 07:12 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 05 2015 05:42 AkipAkip wrote:On May 04 2015 19:47 synapse wrote:On May 04 2015 19:18 Exoteric wrote:
pick gyro, he's one of the only heroes that effectively deals with tombstone now Naga support -> ult to kill the tombstone? Not worth it imo, also zombies are not affected by song. Any natural deso users counters tombstone pretty hard. Tomb only has 5 armor. Weaver, Wraith King, and now TA. Ursa, and Gyro are also good at killing tombstone. Now that Zombies are buffed like this, Naga WITH Undying might actually work, it was very popular in DotA 1 in Philippines scene. What's the point. Drop Tombstone, Song, wait for 6-7 zombies to spawn around every enemy hero, let song finish and have free "cc" (pathing) and a bunch of sustained damage on everyone?
Yeah pretty much, the slow from Flesh Golem + Zombies is quite big and it is hard for enemy heroes to get to the Tombstone after the song if you have chosen the right place for it. Bristleback and somewhat Axe were counter to that style and were usually banned since they would easily clear the Zombies but now that's pretty much impossible without Gyro.
On May 06 2015 10:10 Belisarius wrote:
I'm also finding myself getting 100-0'd quite a lot in midgame fights. Usually you go into the midgame as a huge threat but also a big target, and you kind of need to be in the frontline to get a good tombstone and maximise your ult. A lot of his survivability comes from things that either build up over time, like decay and his ult heal, or actives that he needs to cast like soul rip and mek. He's surprisingly fragile if he gets locked down at the start of a fight.
Casual cloak for later glimmer cape, urn, casual bracer or either booster all seem like reasonable investments. Being bulky is probably more important as the 3pos core undying than the 4pos support.
Yeah, majority of Undyings I've seen go for Glimmer Cape, as in the early/mid game most of the damage you take comes from spells(unless they have a lot of heroes with abilities to lower your armor) as barely any hero can just kill you fast enough with just auto-attacks.
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During song only 2 zombies will spawn, 3s interval in a 7 second song and no slow from bloodlust until targets are 35% HP or less.
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On May 06 2015 18:28 govie wrote:
During song only 2 zombies will spawn, 3s interval in a 7 second song and no slow from bloodlust until targets are 35% HP or less.
Bloodlust always slows regardless of target's HP, Zombies just gets increased attack and movement speed if target is at or below 35%/400 HP.
If you cast Tombstone then song after that, you will get 3 Zombie waves and 4th will follow shortly after, that is more than enough to crush the whole teamfight.
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On May 06 2015 18:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 18:28 govie wrote:
During song only 2 zombies will spawn, 3s interval in a 7 second song and no slow from bloodlust until targets are 35% HP or less. Bloodlust always slows regardless of target's HP, Zombies just gets increased attack and movement speed if target is at or below 35%/400 HP. If you cast Tombstone then song after that, you will get 3 Zombie waves and 4th will follow shortly after, that more than enough to crush the whole teamfight.
Complicated game, doto.. thx.
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I like how this hero is incredibly strong early game, somewhat underwhelming mid game and balls-out crazy after he gets refresher. Double tombstone is pretty disgusting if you can pull it off somehow.
Gonna play this hero a lot for the next month or two I think, maybe take a shot at hitting top 100 players :D
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On May 05 2015 19:05 Kreb wrote:
Honestly the way to deal with undying is to not fight him.
I've started adapting to this plan by cutting the creep wave with tombstone at level 3.
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Maybe building a CG helps against the zombies, has a long duration.
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^ i mean by that point the zombie has already done their job. Ideally you want some early game items that can do well against the zombies
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
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United States47024 Posts
On May 07 2015 06:03 lolfail9001 wrote:Eh, sadly i have a feeling the hero is going to receive the Valve treatment as in get his bugs that make him too good fixed AND nerfed on top of that. This one for example: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=131210
There's also the one where zombies chase you way too far because they're supposed to immediately die if you fog them but don't.
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On May 07 2015 06:44 TheYango wrote:There's also the one where zombies chase you way too far because they're supposed to immediately die if you fog them but don't.
I'm not sure, but will TA invis (Really any invis) drop them? It should if my memory hasn't failed me.
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So 1-0-2 at 3 now? Or mango and 1-1-1?
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220 damage nuke at lvl1 for 100 mana seems worth it.
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I tested the No Soul Rip build for a bit during Undying's dominance and it isn't bad. You can still destroy a weak lane with powerful decays and tombstone as soon as they overextend.
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On May 10 2015 06:42 govie wrote:
220 damage nuke at lvl1 for 100 mana seems worth it.
It's 180. Govie plz...
Actually I don't think that build should be changed. You will just use your Soul Rip more carefully now and won't be using it as much as before. It is still stupidly strong spell and it isn't spammable at the early levels anyway because of the cooldown.
You can solo almost anyone with Orb of Venom, 2 Decays and Soul Rip with some auto-attacks, in the early game at level 4-5, I don't see you being able to do that without Soul Rip.
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Late-game, are you still suppose to be in the middle of fights or stay back and spam Q?
Usually as Undying, I go Arcane -> Meka -> (Glimmer Cape/Pipe of Insight/Solar Crest) -> Guardian Greaves
But I still die relatively fast. Should I be opting for Blade Mail more or?
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Blade mail doesnt let you die slower most of the time, rightclicks still hurt and they probably wont die from that little bit of leftover damage.
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I tend to be more in the middle of fights to be honest. Drop Tombstone, press R and then try to survive as long as possible by abusing Q and W.
In my experience you don't really need to survive. Its a nice bonus but ultimately every second you're hanging around the middle of the fight and the enemy team is trying to focus you is another second they're not killing the tombstone or attacking your allies; meanwhile your allies should be pouring on the damage.
Of course that requires your team to actually BE attacking. >_>
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Personally, when I play I don't feel like blademail does much for the hero at that point in the game. I like the Glimmer Cape to get in close for a bit then just sort weave in and out when I can in the fight. If there were a synergistic item to bulk him up that might be good, otherwise I'm thinking maybe casual vit booster?
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On May 19 2015 02:44 Torte de Lini wrote:
Late-game, are you still suppose to be in the middle of fights or stay back and spam Q?
Usually as Undying, I go Arcane -> Meka -> (Glimmer Cape/Pipe of Insight/Solar Crest) -> Guardian Greaves
But I still die relatively fast. Should I be opting for Blade Mail more or?
You should not have such a strict build on undying. You build whatever your team needs. Mek is far from that good on undying as it's hard to hit a meaningful mek timing in which case other items are usually better. Sometimes it's jsut better to yolo in and uby some times for your carry, sometimes it's better to stay back and keep your vlad/mek/forcestaff up for the team.
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On May 19 2015 02:44 Torte de Lini wrote:
Late-game, are you still suppose to be in the middle of fights or stay back and spam Q?
Usually as Undying, I go Arcane -> Meka -> (Glimmer Cape/Pipe of Insight/Solar Crest) -> Guardian Greaves
But I still die relatively fast. Should I be opting for Blade Mail more or?
Except for the items you mentioned:
Ghost is often a great pickup after Mek if you're having an average/bad game. Also more for the #4 undying.
If you're doing well and having lots cash (more likely for #3 undying), halberd, shiva or BKB are good depending on what you're up against. All helps your survivability nicely. Honestly BKB is an undervalued item on undying but its really good for someone whos in the middle of fights.
If you're really poor and cant run into them in fights you can also build yourself like an extra support. Ghost+Force/Eul and stay back and focus on Q+W usage and smart force/eul usage.
Theres so many viable items its hard to keep track of all and people will have a lot of different opinions though. But personally I often judge whether Im doing well enough to run headlong into fights (-> build tanky) or if I dont think I can (-> build utility).
Im not really a fan of glimmer on him though. Doesnt use the attack speed and he needs more HP/Armor to survive well. Also might run into mana problems with both mek and glimmer even with mana boots. I see glimmer as more of a backline support item where you see who gets initiated on and save that guy. Not as an item for the guy who runs in first.
Not a fan on blademail either. Obviously it can be good but I think you need a bigger HP pool to make use of it. You might just get bursted through it or die before you got to activate it if you have a blademail and 1200hp lategame.
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I was definitely thinking of swapping out Blade Mail; never feels all that useful. Lotus Orb too, both felt underwhelming for him.
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and the pipe seems to make it less effective.
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I'm okay with Glimmer Cape on Undying, either to escape and pop my W or to use it on an ally who wants to channel their ultimate.
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On May 19 2015 23:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm okay with Glimmer Cape on Undying, either to escape and pop my W or to use it on an ally who wants to channel their ultimate.
It seems that a lot of people miss the second part of the item. Once they find out that you have Glimmer Cape they will start buying Wards/Gem/Dust, but ~73% of magic resistance is still really strong, after all in the early/mid game spells are doing most of the damage it helps a lot with the tanking during those 5 seconds, and you want to be as tanky as you could with Undying.
And most of the pros I've seen get Glimmer on Undying, even though it's nerfed it is still a very good item for that amount of gold.
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On May 20 2015 01:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2015 23:54 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm okay with Glimmer Cape on Undying, either to escape and pop my W or to use it on an ally who wants to channel their ultimate. It seems that a lot of people miss the second part of the item. Once they find out that you have Glimmer Cape they will start buying Wards/Gem/Dust, but ~73% of magic resistance is still really strong, after all in the early/mid game spells are doing most of the damage it helps a lot with the tanking during those 5 seconds, and you want to be as tanky as you could with Undying. And most of the pros I've seen get Glimmer on Undying, even though it's nerfed it is still a very good item for that amount of gold.
That's exactly it. I don't want to invest in a full Hood of Defiance/Pipe of Insight (though if I haven't gone Glimmer Cape yet and the team needs it, then I will - but with a ton of Linas being played; I just got Glimmer Cape for her ult).
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Interesting.
PEHP2318 / MEHP1821 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek
PEHP2318 / MEHP2276 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+glimmercape (without active 35%m-res glimmercape, devilisk broken)
PEHP2834 / MEHP2227 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+sange
PEHP3777 / MEHP2455 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+armlet
Seeing the numbers make me think sange or armlet are just better for around 2000 gold. Sange is upgradeable and armlet makes him literally undying. I'm in doubt, maybe glimmercape after mek+manaboot+wand is a bit late? (certainly on support undying)
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On May 20 2015 02:45 govie wrote:
Interesting.
PEHP2318 / MEHP1821 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek
PEHP2318 / MEHP2276 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+glimmercape (without active 35%m-res glimmercape, devilisk broken)
PEHP2834 / MEHP2227 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+sange
PEHP3777 / MEHP2455 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+armlet
Seeing the numbers make me think sange or armlet are just better for around 2000 gold. Sange is upgradeable and armlet makes him literally undying. I'm in doubt, maybe glimmercape after mek+manaboot+wand is a bit late? (certainly on support undying)
When you are support Undying you probably won't be going for Mekansm anyway as it comes way too late and you won't be farming very well. Arcane Boots into Glimmer Cape is what most people do, while somebody else is getting the Mekansm.
Undying isn't a fighter hero, and Armlet/Sange doesn't help anybody on your team, just gives you health since you won't be hitting them with your auto-attacks much. You might as well go for 2 Vitality Boosters, one for Heart and one for Rod of Atos or second Heart or something if you just want HP.
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This is what happens when you nerf sniper into the ground, he comes back as a zombie. tombstone is the new shrapnel
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I would say Tombstone is not as efficient as Shrapnel, but it's still crazy good.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2015 02:45 govie wrote:
Interesting.
PEHP2318 / MEHP1821 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek
PEHP2318 / MEHP2276 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+glimmercape (without active 35%m-res glimmercape, devilisk broken)
PEHP2834 / MEHP2227 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+sange
PEHP3777 / MEHP2455 : lvl16 manaboot+wand+mek+armlet
Seeing the numbers make me think sange or armlet are just better for around 2000 gold. Sange is upgradeable and armlet makes him literally undying. I'm in doubt, maybe glimmercape after mek+manaboot+wand is a bit late? (certainly on support undying)
You can't really justify these items purely on EHP on a hero that fundamentally has a supportive usefulness. The items actually have to do something for your team.
On May 20 2015 04:23 Ramiz1989 wrote:
When you are support Undying you probably won't be going for Mekansm anyway as it comes way too late and you won't be farming very well. Arcane Boots into Glimmer Cape is what most people do, while somebody else is getting the Mekansm.
Supporting the mana costs of both Meka and Glimmer is also basically impossible without the item progression of a core.
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On May 22 2015 22:33 Torte de Lini wrote:
I would say Tombstone is not as efficient as Shrapnel, but it's still crazy good.
Uh? Tombstone is a lot scarier than Shrapnel, Shrapnel covers huge Area if you cast all three of them and is in general a real pain in the ass, but Tombstone either kills your whole team or slow your whole team down to the Upheaval level, which is the reason why enemy prioritize it more than heroes on your team lol.
Also it doesn't make much sense to compare these two spells without the whole kit of those heroes, Undying is support/offlaner that needs only Arcane boots early in the game to be able to spam spells and all of his spells crush teamfights really really hard. On the other hand, Sniper is core and really isn't suited for early game even though Shrapnel is good spell.
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haha imagine if undying has shrapnel instead of soul rip.
that'll be game over.
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Did anything happen to this hero that I missed? His win rate and pick rate dropped significantly the past month in public, and he was not in the top 10 pick/ban during ESL. I know there was the soul rip mana cost in 6.84b and the tombstone health reduction in 6.84c, but these were both before the TI5 qualifiers where he was sitting at over 90% pick/ban.
He is still a good and popular hero, but I can't explain this change.
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I mean he's still sitting on a 60+% winrate and a 70+% P/B in progames. That's pretty good.
It's not an unusual sequence of events for a hero who is so strong in such an obvious way. He had a massive peak when he first landed in the meta because nobody knew what to do about him, but now teams have learned to play around his powercurve he's dropping off to a strong-but-not-in-every-game baseline.
Similar story in pubs. Minor nerfs coupled with people learning not to stand in tombstone reel him in from being the undisputed MMR-dispenser he started as. Of course he's still strong, but these days if you're a budding cancer-picker you've got lesh/ursa/zeus/necro/gyro/bloodseeker to consider as well.
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On May 23 2015 02:29 evanthebouncy! wrote:
haha imagine if undying has shrapnel instead of soul rip.
that'll be game over.
Still a strong dual lane.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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Deleting a hero from dota never goes out of style, imo. He's always gonna be a pubstomper.
Real games I don't think he's amazing this patch; reaper's seems better the later games go.
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in the context of this thread maybe he meant necrobook?
necrobook always feels meh to me unless you need the detection or mana burn for some specific reason
off topic: the existence of glimmer cape feels like quite a nerf to necrolyte
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True.
idk I get book if I'm ahead and we need a bit more pushing power to close it out, which is a situation Undy finds himself in often. It always feels a bit awkward though.
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What seperates a good undying from a really good undying?
No seriously, all the hero has to do is plant a tombstone and run at things
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a really good undying will dominate his lane harder by being aggressive as possible without feeding
lots of undyings underestimate how much killing power they actually have early on and miss out on kills and such
undying's itemization is really flexible too and itemizing properly into the midgame depending on situation is probably a big deal
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You can definitively overestimate yourself also. Tombstone isn't chaotic offering, and Undying doesn't have much health without decay stacks. He can't initiate everywhere, people will just run away and then Undying is out of mana and is a sitting duck. Especially if he is in a solo lane, reading the situation, force a fight at the right time, or "look weak" to trick opponents into going on him in a situation where they should not.
A decent Undying can use decay and tombstone in early teamfights to get a lot of work done, but will be a bit clueless and pick slightly desperate fights, get ganked or just waste his time if the game isn't really shaping up the way he wants it to. A really good Undying player will always find a way.
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On July 01 2015 04:15 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
a really good undying will dominate his lane harder by being aggressive as possible without feeding
lots of undyings underestimate how much killing power they actually have early on and miss out on kills and such
undying's itemization is really flexible too and itemizing properly into the midgame depending on situation is probably a big deal
This only works against opponents willingly trading their lives for a bit of farm, playing defensive and catching back in farm later is the correct way to go against undying if you can't kill him.
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So anyone else tried the new Agh? Ive only played it three games now but honestly it seems a bit too strong. I've ended up more of a carry than anything else.
Some pointers how I played him:
- You need to be #3 now. You're taking the offlane farm, not your buddy. Duo offlane is probably still preferable, but you want a supp and not a farmer with you. 30min #4 Agh probably wont scare anyone. I wonder if you could make him work as #2 even...
- You need to play more greedy. Previously you kinda seached for any early game fight you could find. I dont think you should be afraid to stick around and farm now though. If you manage to win the offlane and force their carry away, feel free to stay and farm.
- 10str steal is constant and doesnt scale. As such, get Agh as first item, the earlier you get it the better. I've just got some basic Treads/Wand/(tried soul ring too but wasnt sold on that) and then straight Agh. Cheap stuff like bottle or basi is probably ok too.
- BKB feels like core. You need to survive and be in the middle of fights. If you die to magic burst before your 2nd decay you barely do anything. Ive got BKB after Agh all games.
- Shivas, AC, Halberd very much recommended following items. Armor is super good most games, you get the health from Agh+BKB+all the str stealing, you want armor with all that health. Can also do utility stuff like Vlad or Hex if needed.
- Not sure about the build. Tomb feels underwhelming early. And max soul rip at lvl 7? Nah.... I've tried maxing decay first with a point or two in tomb just in case. Something like 4-1-2-1 -> 4-4-2-1 or something, but really dont know. Tomb really doesnt feels too hot at all. Sure it got a lategame survival buff, but zombies also barely scratch people lategame. It feels like the hero is about Agh and multiple enemy decays now. Although decay by no means good for farming, it can maginally increase your farming speed too.
+ Show Spoiler +Shoutout to the 378hp at 25min Ember who lost about half his health to a decay against my 3.2k hp undying http://imgur.com/zlCjeu1
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Protip: Tombstone can clear multiple stacks with a single cast, or push a side-lane while clearing the pull camp.
If you have a dual lane that can protect it, dropping the tombstone behind their safe-lane tower at level 3 can not only eat the creep wave and pullcamp, but has results ranging from an easy tower dive, to zoning them back to their tier 2, to taking down the tower.
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Yeah even if Tombstone is nerfed, you simply aren't doing much without it and I would still max it as soon as possible. Zombies deal less damage but they still slow people a lot and if you place Tomb in a good spot it will be very hard for enemies to kill it. It is also the only way of clearing large number of creeps/neutrals fast even though it has somewhat long cooldown.
But yeah, I knew that this kind of Aghs upgrade will be close to broken the moment I saw it.
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aghs is actually so good. I was sceptical of spending 4.2k gold on a hero who can't farn to make one of your spells 2.5x better but it actually has very good lategame presence. Build aghs then stack armor/evasion in the form of blademail/solar crest
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Super bumb just for some perspective. Where is Undying now? He doesn't really seem that good, at least not from the angle of a support which is where we last saw him. He dies too fast, a lot of heroes don't care about Tomb Stone beyond the laning phase, and if he's not going to get tanky items if he's a support. Is it time to put him back into position 3 to play a more aggressive version of Omniknight?
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If you farm him he's heavily outclassed by Omni and Abba, if you don't farm him he's heavily outclassed by Ogre. Atm a pos 4 needs to be able to roam, which he can't, a position 3 needs to be able to either provide loads of utility or initiate, which he both can't and tombstone isn't strong enough to play him as a hard 5.
He can still win lanes, push early towers and he's ok around the roshpit, but that's all not important enough unless you play a very heavy pushing lineup.
Many items/changes benefit him somewhat, Solar is good, drums is good, SR is better than before. But all that doesn't make him relevant over other heroes.
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EPT
