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Honestly the way to deal with undying is to not fight him. And I mean NOT FIGHT HIM. He cant force anyone out of lane as melee. Other melees he can force out of last hits but even that shouldnt happen 1v2 or 2v3. He cant solo kill with no stuns or slows. He cant force a fight since him dropping tomb is like the biggest "ima try to kill you now" sign. If he drops it, retreat and you likely get only 1 zombie spawned on you. And he'll push the wave to the safety of your T1.
Like with so many other high winrate heroes undying thrives on punishing people for overcommitting (hello WK/Omni/Necro constant high pub winrates). Lots of people even at high mmr dont consider the combined healing of a 2-3 man decay + a soul rip (can be upwards of 350 hp) and the fact that if you dont kill him fast you'll be fighting under a tomb. Even when playing against him as carry/supp in safelane people will initiate way way way more on him than they should.
Disregarding some very strong lane winner (typically not hard carries), dont fight him unless you're prepared to beat his current health + 300 while under a tomb. He is the hero thats pressured to get things done in lane, not your carry. Sit in lane, out-CS him, do free harass if possible but be extremely (extremely!) careful to fight him.
If he comes with a strong laning partner, be prepared to sac your lane. Dont feed, sac the lane if needed, let them get a tower if needed, try to win other lanes and recover as him and his laning partner hopefully falls off.
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On May 05 2015 07:12 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 05:42 AkipAkip wrote:On May 04 2015 19:47 synapse wrote:On May 04 2015 19:18 Exoteric wrote:
pick gyro, he's one of the only heroes that effectively deals with tombstone now Naga support -> ult to kill the tombstone? Not worth it imo, also zombies are not affected by song. Any natural deso users counters tombstone pretty hard. Tomb only has 5 armor. Weaver, Wraith King, and now TA. Ursa, and Gyro are also good at killing tombstone. Now that Zombies are buffed like this, Naga WITH Undying might actually work, it was very popular in DotA 1 in Philippines scene.
What's the point. Drop Tombstone, Song, wait for 6-7 zombies to spawn around every enemy hero, let song finish and have free "cc" (pathing) and a bunch of sustained damage on everyone?
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Quick question - do you need to build Undying as a tank-type hero? I just started playing him and using Torte's Guides, he seems to keep pretty low HP pool throughout most games - high on armor, especially with Shivas, but can be focusable. Is it really just a positioning thing and he shouldn't need HP for utility?
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On May 06 2015 04:43 BoZiffer wrote:
Quick question - do you need to build Undying as a tank-type hero? I just started playing him and using Torte's Guides, he seems to keep pretty low HP pool throughout most games - high on armor, especially with Shivas, but can be focusable. Is it really just a positioning thing and he shouldn't need HP for utility?
Kreb is a 5k player and said a couple of days ago:
On May 04 2015 09:31 Kreb wrote:Would be hard to make a guide when there would be nothing new in it. The hero is like way more about how you play (mostly in the first 10-15min) than about what items you build. I still think Arcane (even more so now) into most of the time Mek into general utility (theres like 10-15 viable items) still is the way to go though. Would be hard to explain exactly when to get what item too because they're so many. I could probably play the same game twice and build different items because more than one fits the situation. Though I prefer the 4pos undying that helps a better scaling laning partner getting off to a good start over the 3pos one which many seem to play. I remember making this from three consecutive pages of undying (39 games) prepatch, should be almost all duo offlane with a farming partner: http://i.imgur.com/s2RuZmU.png
Read his post on the page before this one, it got alot of info.
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Yup, it is a great post. I pretty much follow the Arcanes --> Mek and later Greaves path. I guess my question is if I should pick up raw HP items in addition so that I can't be bursted and my ult is more useful for longer, say a casual vit booster or a full on Atos or something and act like a front liner or just kind of keep weaving my way in and around the team fights.
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The strenght steal from decay makes armor stronger (against physical damage) and allows you to focus more on utility items. But against magic heavy line ups, going for HP increasing items is good way to go but i would prefer urn, a faster agha or even an octa core over atos.
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I'm also finding myself getting 100-0'd quite a lot in midgame fights. Usually you go into the midgame as a huge threat but also a big target, and you kind of need to be in the frontline to get a good tombstone and maximise your ult. A lot of his survivability comes from things that either build up over time, like decay and his ult heal, or actives that he needs to cast like soul rip and mek. He's surprisingly fragile if he gets locked down at the start of a fight.
Casual cloak for later glimmer cape, urn, casual bracer or either booster all seem like reasonable investments. Being bulky is probably more important as the 3pos core undying than the 4pos support.
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On May 05 2015 21:59 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2015 07:12 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 05 2015 05:42 AkipAkip wrote:On May 04 2015 19:47 synapse wrote:On May 04 2015 19:18 Exoteric wrote:
pick gyro, he's one of the only heroes that effectively deals with tombstone now Naga support -> ult to kill the tombstone? Not worth it imo, also zombies are not affected by song. Any natural deso users counters tombstone pretty hard. Tomb only has 5 armor. Weaver, Wraith King, and now TA. Ursa, and Gyro are also good at killing tombstone. Now that Zombies are buffed like this, Naga WITH Undying might actually work, it was very popular in DotA 1 in Philippines scene. What's the point. Drop Tombstone, Song, wait for 6-7 zombies to spawn around every enemy hero, let song finish and have free "cc" (pathing) and a bunch of sustained damage on everyone?
Yeah pretty much, the slow from Flesh Golem + Zombies is quite big and it is hard for enemy heroes to get to the Tombstone after the song if you have chosen the right place for it. Bristleback and somewhat Axe were counter to that style and were usually banned since they would easily clear the Zombies but now that's pretty much impossible without Gyro.
On May 06 2015 10:10 Belisarius wrote:
I'm also finding myself getting 100-0'd quite a lot in midgame fights. Usually you go into the midgame as a huge threat but also a big target, and you kind of need to be in the frontline to get a good tombstone and maximise your ult. A lot of his survivability comes from things that either build up over time, like decay and his ult heal, or actives that he needs to cast like soul rip and mek. He's surprisingly fragile if he gets locked down at the start of a fight.
Casual cloak for later glimmer cape, urn, casual bracer or either booster all seem like reasonable investments. Being bulky is probably more important as the 3pos core undying than the 4pos support.
Yeah, majority of Undyings I've seen go for Glimmer Cape, as in the early/mid game most of the damage you take comes from spells(unless they have a lot of heroes with abilities to lower your armor) as barely any hero can just kill you fast enough with just auto-attacks.
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During song only 2 zombies will spawn, 3s interval in a 7 second song and no slow from bloodlust until targets are 35% HP or less.
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On May 06 2015 18:28 govie wrote:
During song only 2 zombies will spawn, 3s interval in a 7 second song and no slow from bloodlust until targets are 35% HP or less.
Bloodlust always slows regardless of target's HP, Zombies just gets increased attack and movement speed if target is at or below 35%/400 HP.
If you cast Tombstone then song after that, you will get 3 Zombie waves and 4th will follow shortly after, that is more than enough to crush the whole teamfight.
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On May 06 2015 18:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 18:28 govie wrote:
During song only 2 zombies will spawn, 3s interval in a 7 second song and no slow from bloodlust until targets are 35% HP or less. Bloodlust always slows regardless of target's HP, Zombies just gets increased attack and movement speed if target is at or below 35%/400 HP. If you cast Tombstone then song after that, you will get 3 Zombie waves and 4th will follow shortly after, that more than enough to crush the whole teamfight.
Complicated game, doto.. thx.
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I like how this hero is incredibly strong early game, somewhat underwhelming mid game and balls-out crazy after he gets refresher. Double tombstone is pretty disgusting if you can pull it off somehow.
Gonna play this hero a lot for the next month or two I think, maybe take a shot at hitting top 100 players :D
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On May 05 2015 19:05 Kreb wrote:
Honestly the way to deal with undying is to not fight him.
I've started adapting to this plan by cutting the creep wave with tombstone at level 3.
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Maybe building a CG helps against the zombies, has a long duration.
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^ i mean by that point the zombie has already done their job. Ideally you want some early game items that can do well against the zombies
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On May 07 2015 06:03 lolfail9001 wrote:Eh, sadly i have a feeling the hero is going to receive the Valve treatment as in get his bugs that make him too good fixed AND nerfed on top of that. This one for example: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=131210
There's also the one where zombies chase you way too far because they're supposed to immediately die if you fog them but don't.
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On May 07 2015 06:44 TheYango wrote:There's also the one where zombies chase you way too far because they're supposed to immediately die if you fog them but don't.
I'm not sure, but will TA invis (Really any invis) drop them? It should if my memory hasn't failed me.
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So 1-0-2 at 3 now? Or mango and 1-1-1?
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EPT
