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On July 25 2016 12:47 spudde123 wrote:
I missed the series largely but from seeing the drafts and the highlights it seems that Secret was in a pretty good position in games 2 and 3 too but didn't really have a great way to safely break highground. In general it seems like they tried to pick quite early game oriented against NaVi. Not sure if I'm the biggest fan of their use of Mirana, although the Mirana herself sort of did well but it doesn't help if you don't have other heroes who can then win the game for you by breaking the base. Later on the magic damage becomes a bit underwhelming and Mirana can't really pick people off either unless you hit a magical arrow.
Game 4 was just impossible to do anything in draftwise considering they didn't manage to pressure the Huskar early on with their dual lane and their teamfight to contest the push was non existent.
The draft situation was similar to TI5 Grandfinals with leshrac. Secret did not want to give the leshrac, aka mirana to Navi. They used it vs Fnatic last series as mid and offlane and destroyed with it. General went 19-0 on offlane. They have also used it 4 support and carry in the past. So it would be too much to give to Navi, so they felt forced to pick it every game to deny it.
Now it's not that Arteezy played a bad mirana, he didn't he played it very well. However 3 out of 4 games it was forced to be mid, making Secret's drafts predictable. Which Navi then played around having a good idea on what they were going to be playing vs.
That said, games 2 and 3 were close, could of been won by Secret Was a good showing by you. So that's good with TI just around the corner. Best of luck to your team!
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I don't know about it making the drafts predictable, it was safelane in g2 and mid in g3 and g4. And in g3 NaVi was probably expecting it to be a sidelane Mirana + SD given that they banned Razor last. Given how g2 and g3 went it would be a bit silly of me to claim that the drafts were all that bad, but Secret definitely didn't leave themselves much room for error imo in those. For example in g3 instead of picking Tide last I wonder if they could have put Mirana+SD on a sidelane and picked a ranged core to give them more push and pickoff. Now they sort of had teamfight heroes to back up Drow and Mirana but NaVi had even stronger teamfight themselves, at least later on, and Secret also didn't really have super fast push or a farming+pickoff edge.
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On July 25 2016 20:40 spudde123 wrote:
I don't know about it making the drafts predictable, it was safelane in g2 and mid in g3 and g4. And in g3 NaVi was probably expecting it to be a sidelane Mirana + SD given that they banned Razor last. Given how g2 and g3 went it would be a bit silly of me to claim that the drafts were all that bad, but Secret definitely didn't leave themselves much room for error imo in those. For example in g3 instead of picking Tide last I wonder if they could have put Mirana+SD on a sidelane and picked a ranged core to give them more push and pickoff. Now they sort of had teamfight heroes to back up Drow and Mirana but NaVi had even stronger teamfight themselves, at least later on, and Secret also didn't really have super fast push or a farming+pickoff edge.
It was very easy to predict at game 3 tbh. Drow 1st pick, so Mirana has to be either offlane or midlane. Bulba never plays Mirana anyways so it must be a midlane Mirana. Puppey force the team into this situation after that 2 core picks. He probably also dont want Mirana to fall into the hand of Na'Vi since if that happen, it's gonna be VAC arrow galore from GeneRaL or Dendi and that is the last thing Secret wants in this game.
Game 4 the pick was also 2nd. Still, This time it is harder to tell but since Bulba never plays her so it is either safe or midlane. Bat is GeneRaL signature hero so they probably dont want her in the safe lane since she is just gonna get mangled in that lane without the Oracle. So she has to be mid, again.
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On July 27 2016 02:20 Quang3011 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2016 20:40 spudde123 wrote:
I don't know about it making the drafts predictable, it was safelane in g2 and mid in g3 and g4. And in g3 NaVi was probably expecting it to be a sidelane Mirana + SD given that they banned Razor last. Given how g2 and g3 went it would be a bit silly of me to claim that the drafts were all that bad, but Secret definitely didn't leave themselves much room for error imo in those. For example in g3 instead of picking Tide last I wonder if they could have put Mirana+SD on a sidelane and picked a ranged core to give them more push and pickoff. Now they sort of had teamfight heroes to back up Drow and Mirana but NaVi had even stronger teamfight themselves, at least later on, and Secret also didn't really have super fast push or a farming+pickoff edge. It was very easy to predict at game 3 tbh. Drow 1st pick, so Mirana has to be either offlane or midlane. Bulba never plays Mirana anyways so it must be a midlane Mirana. Puppey force the team into this situation after that 2 core picks. He probably also dont want Mirana to fall into the hand of Na'Vi since if that happen, it's gonna be VAC arrow galore from GeneRaL or Dendi and that is the last thing Secret wants in this game. Game 4 the pick was also 2nd. Still, This time it is harder to tell but since Bulba never plays her so it is either safe or midlane. Bat is GeneRaL signature hero so they probably dont want her in the safe lane since she is just gonna get mangled in that lane without the Oracle. So she has to be mid, again.
They can switch player lanes pretty easily even if they don't want Bulba on Mirana, especially if it's SD + Mirana sidelane. For example see Secret vs coL where they ran Arteezy+PLD offlane dual lane with that combo with the Drow mid. And also the assumption that Bulba somehow would never play Mirana is a pretty dangerous one to make. Before this event neither of EE or Arteezy was particularly known for their Mirana but they still picked it for them. And clearly in g3 NaVi didn't make that assumption given that they banned the Razor last.
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On July 27 2016 03:05 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2016 02:20 Quang3011 wrote:On July 25 2016 20:40 spudde123 wrote:
I don't know about it making the drafts predictable, it was safelane in g2 and mid in g3 and g4. And in g3 NaVi was probably expecting it to be a sidelane Mirana + SD given that they banned Razor last. Given how g2 and g3 went it would be a bit silly of me to claim that the drafts were all that bad, but Secret definitely didn't leave themselves much room for error imo in those. For example in g3 instead of picking Tide last I wonder if they could have put Mirana+SD on a sidelane and picked a ranged core to give them more push and pickoff. Now they sort of had teamfight heroes to back up Drow and Mirana but NaVi had even stronger teamfight themselves, at least later on, and Secret also didn't really have super fast push or a farming+pickoff edge. It was very easy to predict at game 3 tbh. Drow 1st pick, so Mirana has to be either offlane or midlane. Bulba never plays Mirana anyways so it must be a midlane Mirana. Puppey force the team into this situation after that 2 core picks. He probably also dont want Mirana to fall into the hand of Na'Vi since if that happen, it's gonna be VAC arrow galore from GeneRaL or Dendi and that is the last thing Secret wants in this game. Game 4 the pick was also 2nd. Still, This time it is harder to tell but since Bulba never plays her so it is either safe or midlane. Bat is GeneRaL signature hero so they probably dont want her in the safe lane since she is just gonna get mangled in that lane without the Oracle. So she has to be mid, again. They can switch player lanes pretty easily even if they don't want Bulba on Mirana, especially if it's SD + Mirana sidelane. For example see Secret vs coL where they ran Arteezy+PLD offlane dual lane with that combo with the Drow mid. And also the assumption that Bulba somehow would never play Mirana is a pretty dangerous one to make. Before this event neither of EE or Arteezy was particularly known for their Mirana but they still picked it for them. And clearly in g3 NaVi didn't make that assumption given that they banned the Razor last.
The problem is that they cant. They dont have Oracle (Na'Vi first picked) or Drow (Banned) to back Mirana up in the safe lane so Bat just gonna run them down most of the time. Bulba dont play Mirana well enough because he likes a more tank core offlane herro (Abba, Tide,Void,BM,...) rather than semi carry offlane hero (Mirana, Jugg, NP,...) because he isnt good with farming hero so he isnt gonna play Mirana anyways.
The Razor ban was something a bit different. They just dont want to deal with him since he is like SK: way too good against melee core. They also does that because they just wanna beat the drow strats with both SD & ET giving to Secret so they waste the ban.
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On July 27 2016 03:05 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2016 02:20 Quang3011 wrote:On July 25 2016 20:40 spudde123 wrote:
I don't know about it making the drafts predictable, it was safelane in g2 and mid in g3 and g4. And in g3 NaVi was probably expecting it to be a sidelane Mirana + SD given that they banned Razor last. Given how g2 and g3 went it would be a bit silly of me to claim that the drafts were all that bad, but Secret definitely didn't leave themselves much room for error imo in those. For example in g3 instead of picking Tide last I wonder if they could have put Mirana+SD on a sidelane and picked a ranged core to give them more push and pickoff. Now they sort of had teamfight heroes to back up Drow and Mirana but NaVi had even stronger teamfight themselves, at least later on, and Secret also didn't really have super fast push or a farming+pickoff edge. It was very easy to predict at game 3 tbh. Drow 1st pick, so Mirana has to be either offlane or midlane. Bulba never plays Mirana anyways so it must be a midlane Mirana. Puppey force the team into this situation after that 2 core picks. He probably also dont want Mirana to fall into the hand of Na'Vi since if that happen, it's gonna be VAC arrow galore from GeneRaL or Dendi and that is the last thing Secret wants in this game. Game 4 the pick was also 2nd. Still, This time it is harder to tell but since Bulba never plays her so it is either safe or midlane. Bat is GeneRaL signature hero so they probably dont want her in the safe lane since she is just gonna get mangled in that lane without the Oracle. So she has to be mid, again. They can switch player lanes pretty easily even if they don't want Bulba on Mirana, especially if it's SD + Mirana sidelane. For example see Secret vs coL where they ran Arteezy+PLD offlane dual lane with that combo with the Drow mid. And also the assumption that Bulba somehow would never play Mirana is a pretty dangerous one to make. Before this event neither of EE or Arteezy was particularly known for their Mirana but they still picked it for them. And clearly in g3 NaVi didn't make that assumption given that they banned the Razor last.
Actually EE used to play mirana when they switch from time to time with singsing
and even in the later c9/secret he played some mirana .. rtz however i've never seen the dude play that hero up until now
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On July 27 2016 13:09 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2016 03:05 spudde123 wrote:On July 27 2016 02:20 Quang3011 wrote:On July 25 2016 20:40 spudde123 wrote:
I don't know about it making the drafts predictable, it was safelane in g2 and mid in g3 and g4. And in g3 NaVi was probably expecting it to be a sidelane Mirana + SD given that they banned Razor last. Given how g2 and g3 went it would be a bit silly of me to claim that the drafts were all that bad, but Secret definitely didn't leave themselves much room for error imo in those. For example in g3 instead of picking Tide last I wonder if they could have put Mirana+SD on a sidelane and picked a ranged core to give them more push and pickoff. Now they sort of had teamfight heroes to back up Drow and Mirana but NaVi had even stronger teamfight themselves, at least later on, and Secret also didn't really have super fast push or a farming+pickoff edge. It was very easy to predict at game 3 tbh. Drow 1st pick, so Mirana has to be either offlane or midlane. Bulba never plays Mirana anyways so it must be a midlane Mirana. Puppey force the team into this situation after that 2 core picks. He probably also dont want Mirana to fall into the hand of Na'Vi since if that happen, it's gonna be VAC arrow galore from GeneRaL or Dendi and that is the last thing Secret wants in this game. Game 4 the pick was also 2nd. Still, This time it is harder to tell but since Bulba never plays her so it is either safe or midlane. Bat is GeneRaL signature hero so they probably dont want her in the safe lane since she is just gonna get mangled in that lane without the Oracle. So she has to be mid, again. They can switch player lanes pretty easily even if they don't want Bulba on Mirana, especially if it's SD + Mirana sidelane. For example see Secret vs coL where they ran Arteezy+PLD offlane dual lane with that combo with the Drow mid. And also the assumption that Bulba somehow would never play Mirana is a pretty dangerous one to make. Before this event neither of EE or Arteezy was particularly known for their Mirana but they still picked it for them. And clearly in g3 NaVi didn't make that assumption given that they banned the Razor last. Actually EE used to play mirana when they switch from time to time with singsing and even in the later c9/secret he played some mirana .. rtz however i've never seen the dude play that hero up until now
in pro games he played it once on his most recent EG membership
he has spammed Mirana countless times on his stream too
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There was a time period where after he hit 8k where he didnt give a fuck about mmr and was sick of spamming OD, and he started picked core mirana safelane in his pub games, so hes actuallty pretty well accquainted with the hero. that was before aghs buff too/
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I know he was comfortable playing the hero, but my point was just that Secret hadn't picked Mirana before this for either player and picked it now. And similarly they could conceivably pick it for Bulba or Puppey too if it suited the game. Making assumptions that some player doesn't play a certain hero mostly based on whether they've played it recently in competitive can easily go wrong.
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Let's go boys. It's about time.!
EDIT 03/08/2016 i the anxiety is growing!
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Nice first day. Bit sad to lose the only game with no Huskar, but you can't really be unhappy with 3-1.
Artour is in my fantasy lineup for today so LET'S GO
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They looked quite solid with some nice teamwork, the one game they lost came down mostly to them drafting themselves into an unwinnable situation imo (EE safelane Bat never forget). I honestly think they will stop drafting huskar as soon as they lose with it, using a cheese strat like that seems logical on the first day, especially now that a number of teams are using it, you don't reveal too much in terms of your strats/drafting. I really liked the offlane Sand King and support Kunnkka, it's cool to see them whipping out some new heros.
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Puppey/Kunkka was really on point.
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On August 04 2016 22:22 PoulsenB wrote:
They looked quite solid with some nice teamwork, the one game they lost came down mostly to them drafting themselves into an unwinnable situation imo (EE safelane Bat never forget). I honestly think they will stop drafting huskar as soon as they lose with it, using a cheese strat like that seems logical on the first day, especially now that a number of teams are using it, you don't reveal too much in terms of your strats/drafting. I really liked the offlane Sand King and support Kunnkka, it's cool to see them whipping out some new heros.
I don't think it was just on EE though, the 17% was just too strong yesterday. That space cow is just a massive hulking beast with 1k+ hp by level 5/6 and he runs at squishy stuff and clubs them to death.
IMO if they want to play retard style run at each other dota vs MVP, they need to ban the space cow.
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I don't think any team will just stop the Huskar picking. Secret wasn't really forcing the picks in any way. They opened with Wisp, saw enemies pick lineups that don't deal with Huskar, and picked it 4th or 5th. I don't think we'll see them picking it first phase and in the future it's quite safe to assume that teams will either ban it 2nd phase if it still fits or will have to pick in a way where they are somewhat ready to deal with the Huskar possibility.
Last game the combination of the last 2 picks just didn't work out. I think the issue going into the last pick was that MVP still had the last pick of the draft and already had a DS, so Secret had to be scared of a dual offlane (knowing that they wanted to run SK + Dazzle offlane and Wisp helping out Alch mid). They had to pick a hero that can somewhat deal with the possibility and went for Bat. But then MVP picked SB and very early on just hung around in Secret's woods and Secret couldn't really do anything about it (the Alch was quite mediocre for these engagements and couldn't farm either), and then when Secret screwed up once and got behind the game was pretty much done.
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On August 05 2016 00:16 spudde123 wrote:
I don't think any team will just stop the Huskar picking. Secret wasn't really forcing the picks in any way. They opened with Wisp, saw enemies pick lineups that don't deal with Huskar, and picked it 4th or 5th. I don't think we'll see them picking it first phase and in the future it's quite safe to assume that teams will either ban it 2nd phase if it still fits or will have to pick in a way where they are somewhat ready to deal with the Huskar possibility.
Last game the combination of the last 2 picks just didn't work out. I think the issue going into the last pick was that MVP still had the last pick of the draft and already had a DS, so Secret had to be scared of a dual offlane (knowing that they wanted to run SK + Dazzle offlane and Wisp helping out Alch mid). They had to pick a hero that can somewhat deal with the possibility and went for Bat. But then MVP picked SB and very early on just hung around in Secret's woods and Secret couldn't really do anything about it (the Alch was quite mediocre for these engagements and couldn't farm either), and then when Secret screwed up once and got behind the game was pretty much done.
I think Alch could work as a fighter/ganker, but he has to be built more in the TI5 mould where people were maxing Acid spray + concoction and rushing the early shadowblade.
Also that early jungle stack steal and jungle wards completely wrecked Arteezy. MVP asserted their dominance in the radiant jungle nearby the mid T1, and Secret misread/mishandled the situation. They should have used the opportunity to collapse on either the bot lane or the top lane and take objectives there, while denying MVP's own jungle.
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I don't know why i get hopeful about this team. They always end up disappointing :\
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It's early guys. It's a long tournament and they were clearly tilted in Game 2. Plenty of time to run into form. Wonder though if the team of the 1st two majors was so good because there was a clear hierarchy on calls.
edit: Never mind. Full Emo.
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EPT
