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On August 05 2016 20:59 Shaella wrote:
Honestly Bulba's been fine its just EE and Puppey are both failing.
He is okay, but being a champions team does not mean "fine" is enough.
He plays way better than universe played on secret - on the otherhand universe on EG now is strong as he was in the days before secret. I am not sure what the reason is, but he now looks again like one of the best offlanes in the world, on secret he was so bad. This needs to be a combination of not feeling good in the overall situation and not getting enabled the right way.
Ppy as a player is not strong this tourney, but the drafting and "strategy" he pulls out is so bad. It feels like he tries to copy styles that are not fitting the team and are not even countering the enemy drafts.
I still feel sorry for rtz and pld - they re solid and deserve a good result in this tourney.
Bad time for secret fans.
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On August 05 2016 22:04 BigO wrote:
Some draft decisions seems just plain dumb. Like EE Death Prophet mid and RTZ Drow Ranger, why not just swap the 2 so they actually have a shot at winning. EE has been playing quite poorly, but they haven't exactly drafted him many comfort picks either, focusing more on getting RTZ farmed on whatever hero he plays. I just don't see it working out and at this point I think they should try and draft some heroes EE can actually play, even if it might put RTZ on a more spacemaking role, I mean, it doesn't hurt trying to change things up, it's clearly not working now anyway.
Like, I am not surprised that EE is doing poorly since he has to play a way he usually never does. RTZ still looks solid, but that also probably has something to do with him playing comfort picks and the rest just playing so poorly that he just looks good in comparison. With that said, I'm not sure switching things up will work either, maybe they are just destined for failure, but at this point, it's still probably worth trying.
Do you really think the core hero pool of EE fits the actual state of the TI-meta or even gives them an option of winning games?
I dont feel that for example ember got a lot to show this TI-meta. He gets countered to easily by the pool played here. We have a really wide pool overall, but you need to keep in mind what heroes bulba or pld need to shine and if you write them down you wont have a lineup that fits well together.
I personally dont see rtz as their main focus on getting him a good game. Thats not how they draft and decide, thats something you can see on OG when they draft games around miracle - but not on secret. Rtz is playing what ever ppy decides em to give, its not very rtz specific, or am I missing something?
To be honest, I am not that sure what heroes I would call for "rtz-heroes" this time, because he played a very wide range in his pubs and trained all meta heroes + still got heroes in the pool he was good with in the old days (razor for example..)
I could only call out heroes he is not good with and never plays.
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On August 05 2016 22:20 Anamorph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2016 22:04 BigO wrote:
Some draft decisions seems just plain dumb. Like EE Death Prophet mid and RTZ Drow Ranger, why not just swap the 2 so they actually have a shot at winning. EE has been playing quite poorly, but they haven't exactly drafted him many comfort picks either, focusing more on getting RTZ farmed on whatever hero he plays. I just don't see it working out and at this point I think they should try and draft some heroes EE can actually play, even if it might put RTZ on a more spacemaking role, I mean, it doesn't hurt trying to change things up, it's clearly not working now anyway.
Like, I am not surprised that EE is doing poorly since he has to play a way he usually never does. RTZ still looks solid, but that also probably has something to do with him playing comfort picks and the rest just playing so poorly that he just looks good in comparison. With that said, I'm not sure switching things up will work either, maybe they are just destined for failure, but at this point, it's still probably worth trying. Do you really think the core hero pool of EE fits the actual state of the TI-meta or even gives them an option of winning games? I dont feel that for example ember got a lot to show this TI-meta. He gets countered to easily by the pool played here. We have a really wide pool overall, but you need to keep in mind what heroes bulba or pld need to shine and if you write them down you wont have a lineup that fits well together. I personally dont see rtz as their main focus on getting him a good game. Thats not how they draft and decide, thats something you can see on OG when they draft games around miracle - but not on secret. Rtz is playing what ever ppy decides em to give, its not very rtz specific, or am I missing something? To be honest, I am not that sure what heroes I would call for "rtz-heroes" this time, because he played a very wide range in his pubs and trained all meta heroes + still got heroes in the pool he was good with in the old days (razor for example..) I could only call out heroes he is not good with and never plays.
Well, Drow for example is an EE signature hero, yet they let RTZ play her. And you are pretty much making my point, EE usually plays alot of very specific heroes (TB, Drow, Slark and probably a few more I am forgetting) while RTZ can play pretty much whatever. So why not just let RTZ play whatever and let EE have those few heroes he is good at.
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It just doens't make sense like why is EE playing mid what choice was this, why do they make this decision over and over
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They've played this way ever since they changed from Universe to Bulba. If they have 2 cores and one of them is pretty team oriented (like DP) EE plays that and Arteezy plays the more farmy one. If they have regular dual core they decide who plays what depending on the hero. They've picked EE DP multiple times before like against MVP earlier this event. Idk about the exact reasoning but I would guess it relates to having Arteezy more do his own thing and have EE be more involved in team calls.
The DP game against EHOME they didn't do very well in lanes (pretty sure the Nyx vs DP in general is supposed to be pretty good for Nyx without help from either side because he has PMS+qb and burns all mana away from the DP so she can't use nukes at all but obv with Drow aura the DP should do better than she did) and then the first 2 Secret tower pushes went to shit. First time EE tried to wrap around on top tower which got caught by an EHOME ward and Nyx surprised him and the second one was bot lane when EE was moving there and got baited by Lanm to follow him a bit in the woods and again the Nyx came in, Secret lost a few more after that and the game was pretty much done. Those movements were definitely some unwarranted risks when there is a Nyx on the field.
I've been looking through the other games now and other than that game I'm not really following how people bash specific players or why they talk about who is mid and who is safelane. In a few games (EHOME g1, DC g1) they had a really hard time straight from the lanes and Secret didn't really get off the ground on any front, and in a few games (Fnatic g1 and g2, DC g2) Secret seems to have lost because of certain weird decisions or uncoordinated things they did as a team later on. For example against Fnatic g1 I think 2 times Puppey got caught and they brought in reinforcements only to die themselves instead of just giving up a kill. Another time they were setting up a trap for Fnatic on top tower which EE was pushing with Bulba and Puppey behind the tower smoked and it worked, only for them to just have walked too far to be able to do something in time. Also they had some poor fights where one hero just died without contributing anything. And in g2 against Fnatic Puppey led them to a very weird t1 dive mid where they lost a few, and then they lost several more later in a rosh fight which they didn't execute that great, and they were firmly on the backfoot. I've posted before about DC g2 and how imo that was also mainly lost due to a weird call that led to 4 people dying and DC getting control of the game.
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Even if it might be a decision making/teamwork issue, the smart thing would probably still be to try and change some things up. Going 0-6 in one day is not just bad luck and if they want to win they need to find something that works, whatever they did yesterday, did not. Or they could try and get some more Huskar games, since they at least won most of those.
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Well they might go for Huskar if it's not countered but I doubt the enemy teams will make that mistake now. The thing about those games is that the plan to play around the Huskar is fairly straightforward, and those games didn't really expose whatever issues they might have had.
Certainly it wasn't bad luck, imo they've had these sorts of issues as a team ever since they changed post Shanghai. After the Uni -> Bulba change it got a bit better, but even in the quals they typically made some noticeable blunders in taking the right fights and several games got pretty close because of that. Not sure exactly what the difference is in how they decide what to do compared to the old lineup but imo fixing that is the biggest priority. Maybe it means changing some guy out post TI, for today idk if there really is an easy fix. Different games may expose the issues to different extents.
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I don't know any other way to put it, but they're playing like a bunch of pussies. They don't seem to have the ability to get off to good starts, and the supports are overly defensive in the early game but still fail to protect the farm of their cores. Every single game they seem to be playing from behind.
Even in the few games where they pulled ahead, they sat around, waiting to get picked off one by one, instead of asserting their advantage and deathballing.
Bulba has been pretty much non-existent. Most of the times I'm thinking if they even have an offlaner - he has not been feeding per se, but his game impact has been next to nothing. EE has been playing pretty bad, and is not matching up well vs top tier mids. Puppey was just lol. Artour is doing well, but that may just be a function of him being prioritized so much. Pieliedie is doing as well as a position 5 can do, so no complaints against him, but maybe he can do slightly better in the early game.
IMO they need to bring back the Pieliedie Lion, and stronger laners for others, since their current strategy clearly doesn't seem to be panning out. If the meta isn't working out for you, create your own. Time to bring back the Razor DP deathball, or other similar strats where there are clearly defined timing windows, and just work on execution. Its painful to see them dragging out games where they don't have a clear game plan, and clearly inferior late game heroes.
No more Kunkka pls.
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i'm probably just gonna kill myself honestly.
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On August 05 2016 22:46 BigO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2016 22:20 Anamorph wrote:On August 05 2016 22:04 BigO wrote:
Some draft decisions seems just plain dumb. Like EE Death Prophet mid and RTZ Drow Ranger, why not just swap the 2 so they actually have a shot at winning. EE has been playing quite poorly, but they haven't exactly drafted him many comfort picks either, focusing more on getting RTZ farmed on whatever hero he plays. I just don't see it working out and at this point I think they should try and draft some heroes EE can actually play, even if it might put RTZ on a more spacemaking role, I mean, it doesn't hurt trying to change things up, it's clearly not working now anyway.
Like, I am not surprised that EE is doing poorly since he has to play a way he usually never does. RTZ still looks solid, but that also probably has something to do with him playing comfort picks and the rest just playing so poorly that he just looks good in comparison. With that said, I'm not sure switching things up will work either, maybe they are just destined for failure, but at this point, it's still probably worth trying. Do you really think the core hero pool of EE fits the actual state of the TI-meta or even gives them an option of winning games? I dont feel that for example ember got a lot to show this TI-meta. He gets countered to easily by the pool played here. We have a really wide pool overall, but you need to keep in mind what heroes bulba or pld need to shine and if you write them down you wont have a lineup that fits well together. I personally dont see rtz as their main focus on getting him a good game. Thats not how they draft and decide, thats something you can see on OG when they draft games around miracle - but not on secret. Rtz is playing what ever ppy decides em to give, its not very rtz specific, or am I missing something? To be honest, I am not that sure what heroes I would call for "rtz-heroes" this time, because he played a very wide range in his pubs and trained all meta heroes + still got heroes in the pool he was good with in the old days (razor for example..) I could only call out heroes he is not good with and never plays. Well, Drow for example is an EE signature hero, yet they let RTZ play her. And you are pretty much making my point, EE usually plays alot of very specific heroes (TB, Drow, Slark and probably a few more I am forgetting) while RTZ can play pretty much whatever. So why not just let RTZ play whatever and let EE have those few heroes he is good at.
I get your point, and I think - EE on a signature, rtz on something else, would make them perform better than what they do now.
But what I see as a problem - TB and drow for example, are also rtz heroes when you watch him play pubs.. and the truth is, tb and drow are getting played a lot better by rtz than by EE...
I am really not an EE hater, he is a nice person, but he does not fit in a team with rtz AND he is not a strong carry these days. He is a farm oriented player that loves high risk farming spots in the enemy territory that are creating space for the rest of the team, and he loves fast escape heroes (am, slark, ember) he needs for his playstyle.. rtz plays the exact same way with the difference that he is not getting killed that often in the risky spots. He is the better am, better drow and better tb... and in the past with eg he was a damn good flashfarming mid (ta, sf..)
I think it makes no sense about speculating which person is delaying their success... in the end they need to find a solution and I think your point about EE getting signatures is the best way they could. I am also not a fan of secret trying to play this meta, they should create their own, based on their strengths.
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On August 06 2016 08:05 Shaella wrote:
EE is worthless.
I remember EE saying he hates BKB and he plays Luna that needs to use BKB and doesn't use it...
lol.
I don't even know right now. I have trouble rooting for Puppey's team and Dendi's team and they both look out of sorts. Least Na'Vi is doing ok...
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On August 06 2016 00:57 Shaella wrote:
i'm probably just gonna kill myself honestly.
one more for the suicide pact
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Yeah, secret is getting last place at TI, for sure.
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The first episodes of this Anime sucks, i hope this doen't have a bad ending like School Days.
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Bo1 vs LGD, oh boy. I hope Puppey draft something like Liquid last game.
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Well at least this Liquid series brought some hope for them, losing 11 in a row going into the playoffs would have been devastating.
Now they had some decent games and got some wins, hope they make it past LGD to the bo3 at least. LGD has such individual talent though that it's an easy game to screw up in.
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On August 06 2016 12:24 spudde123 wrote:
Well at least this Liquid series brought some hope for them, losing 11 in a row going into the playoffs would have been devastating.
Now they had some decent games and got some wins, hope they make it past LGD to the bo3 at least. LGD has such individual talent though that it's an easy game to screw up in.
Argh. Beat fanatic and get 200k
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secret's got a good chance against an lgd without september but it's still bo1
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EPT
