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On April 22 2015 15:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 10:15 Count9 wrote:On April 22 2015 09:18 FHDH wrote:On April 22 2015 09:17 josemb40 wrote:
I don't see the team working well with Black^. It's like 2 different teams when they play, they are not playing as a team yet =/ Interesting. I thought they did a lot better when Black^ joined the team. I mean, if there's a difference. Old Tinker fell apart after losing to Na'vi in finals, but they still qualified for a ton of Lans (in EU bracket as well) before the reform. Even though the end was ugly, they still won $100,000 which is not insignificant for a team that was as young as Tinker. I hope this Tinker doesn't repeat the same mistakes where they qualify and then just fail Lan after Lan. They didn't really qualify for that many. Starladder was legit, but I think D2CL and DreamLeague had the weird qualifiers where only like the bottom 2 or 3 didn't make (including teams pulling out) like they always do. Summit, they didn't even qualify. I think they were like 3rd or 4th in the redemption vote or something, and only got in because a SEA team couldn't get Visas, and the next teams in the votes couldn't go either. Were there any other LANs they went to? (Also, was trying to figure out how they even got close to $100k, holy crap that XMG Captain's Draft got a shit ton of ticket sales).
I mean, you basically listed every lan important lan in that time period except summit and esl. I know there were some chinese lans they didn't quali for when they just started, but Secret didn't qualify for Dreamleague from the EU division at the start so I don't know how much weight you wanna put on that. Dreamhack itself was pretty easy to get into but the quali for it was brutal.
I really see them at the same point where the first tinker failed, Lans on the horizon all at once. They have a comparable amount of Lans to old Tinker (Starladder + iLeague + prob redbull) vs the three (+1 redemption thing) you mentioned) and I think they really need to do well in just one of them (probably redbull), kind of like EG did with monster energy (even if that tourney only effectively had 2 teams). That momentum from a tourney win, or top 3 at harder tourneys, is so important. If they just get MVP Pheonix'd I don't think it's gonna motivate them like it did for MVP.
But yeah, they're definitely still a new team but with TI so close they don't really get the "oh we're a new team we'll improve with time" buffer ppl usually get. But I guess they have the fall back plan of beat all the NA teams. Besides the Lans, the most important thing coming up for the is definitely that NA qualifier with NAR2 in the mix as well, as I think that's the only real threat to them not getting through NA.
Also, yeah, Captain's draft was insanely successful. (secret made 100k from that one win...) At the same time Starladder was rushing out tourneys every 3 months and bitching and wondering why they aren't as successful.
That means they havent been together for that long and are pretty successful all things considered. (Win rate went from 30 % to almost 70%).
I mean, that period they had standins like patsoul and jerax and ush and stuff, hard to say that's reflective of the team considering they basically didn't have a team. If you can't massively improve your winrate in NA going from those ppl (granted I think ush is pretty decent) to black and pld then there's just actually no way you can even be a pro dota team. But yeah, at least they don't lose to embarassing teams anymore, even 4clovers is all old T1 players even if they can't spell lepricon.
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I agree with them needing to do well at some LAN. I feel it's sort of easy to be motivated when you are just starting as a team, but it gets harder when you do below expectations on LAN and have to return home and work on things again. Although I would think that both PLD and Black have experience in that regard, Black with a very strict practice schedule in China and as far as I know c9 was always a team that constantly played and practiced. Maybe they can help with keeping the team motivated even if they do poorly at SL for example. At this point they don't have much of a choice, they just have to try and constantly improve to be as good as they can when TI comes.
And although TT going out relatively early at SL seems likely, the difference between a disappointing performance and a good one can be 2 bo3 series essentially and in a single bo3 I wouldn't be that surprised if we see some surprises happen.
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I want TT to fail because I have zero respect for players that take the easy route (wanting to compete in NA).
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So i assume you have no respect for SEA players either then heyoo
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On April 23 2015 01:14 Shaella wrote:
So i assume you have no respect for SEA players either then heyoo
ahahahahaha
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On April 23 2015 01:14 Shaella wrote:
So i assume you have no respect for SEA players either then heyoo
I meant EU players trying to compete in NA/Korea.
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so sea players competing in SEA rather than China isn't taking an easy route nah i got ya bro.
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*cough* rave competing in korea
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On April 23 2015 03:18 Shaella wrote:
so sea players competing in SEA rather than China isn't taking an easy route nah i got ya bro.
Yes, I suppose in a relative sense, not getting a work Visa to travel to another country, with fairly strict travel rules, is the easy route.
On April 23 2015 03:19 Sn0_Man wrote:
*cough* rave competing in korea
SEA team competing SEA tournament...?
Now, Zephyr in Korea, that was definitely a blatant cash grab. But at least they committed to it hard, until they crashed and burned hilariously.
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On April 23 2015 06:09 WolfintheSheep wrote:SEA team competing SEA tournament...?
so tinker competing in NA is a western hemisphere team competing in a western hemisphere tournament?
all of the korea stuff wasn't "SEA" tournaments they were korean specific in the same way the americas qualifiers were americas specific last year.
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On April 23 2015 06:13 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 06:09 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 23 2015 03:19 Sn0_Man wrote:
*cough* rave competing in korea SEA team competing SEA tournament...? so tinker competing in NA is a western hemisphere team competing in a western hemisphere tournament? all of the korea stuff wasn't "SEA" tournaments they were korean specific in the same way the americas qualifiers were americas specific last year.
Ignoring the hilarity of "Western Hemisphere tournament", you realize most European teams are on the Eastern Hemisphere, don't you? And that's ignoring the CiS teams, of course.
Also, KDL isn't really Korean specific, it's just a purely LAN tournament. And if you're SEA, it's also really the only major tournament in the region, just like how all the SA teams have to compete in NA tournaments if they ever want to play anything.
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yet i get the impression you'd still complain if TI americas qualifiers were lan only and Tinker participated.
nobody complained when LGD.int played in chinese tournaments.
If a team MOVES to a region and lives there then they should be able to play there, end of story.
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On April 23 2015 06:29 Sn0_Man wrote:
yet i get the impression you'd still complain if TI americas qualifiers were lan only and Tinker participated.
nobody complained when LGD.int played in chinese tournaments.
If a team MOVES to a region and lives there then they should be able to play there, end of story.
Don't really care if they do it for any other tournament. No one does things like this just to get an easier road to Starladder or ESL or something (okay, C9 used to pull all kinds of server shenanigans, but that was quite BS as well).
Doing it for TI, though, is just another point on the downhill slope of fuckery that teams will pull just to get there.
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Some of the opinions here surprise me.
It's kind of weird when Tinker gets to count as an American team, but it is also not new and not unique to Tinker. As I like to say, there's an unwritten pity rule in Dota that any team which is 40% American gets to participate in America. This will probably continue to be the case until America stops being a region that has an EG tier and a not-EG tier.
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On April 22 2015 16:59 xXxUnseenxXx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 15:23 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 22 2015 10:15 Count9 wrote:On April 22 2015 09:18 FHDH wrote:On April 22 2015 09:17 josemb40 wrote:
I don't see the team working well with Black^. It's like 2 different teams when they play, they are not playing as a team yet =/ Interesting. I thought they did a lot better when Black^ joined the team. I mean, if there's a difference. Old Tinker fell apart after losing to Na'vi in finals, but they still qualified for a ton of Lans (in EU bracket as well) before the reform. Even though the end was ugly, they still won $100,000 which is not insignificant for a team that was as young as Tinker. I hope this Tinker doesn't repeat the same mistakes where they qualify and then just fail Lan after Lan. They didn't really qualify for that many. Starladder was legit, but I think D2CL and DreamLeague had the weird qualifiers where only like the bottom 2 or 3 didn't make (including teams pulling out) like they always do. Summit, they didn't even qualify. I think they were like 3rd or 4th in the redemption vote or something, and only got in because a SEA team couldn't get Visas, and the next teams in the votes couldn't go either. Were there any other LANs they went to? (Also, was trying to figure out how they even got close to $100k, holy crap that XMG Captain's Draft got a shit ton of ticket sales). Guys, sometimes things take time to work. Some teams can just swap players (i.e. EG and Secret) and continue to do well because they have amazing leadership (i.e. PPD and Puppey). Give it time, I am not willing to sound the alarm yet with this version of TT. Do they have off days? Yes. Navi was atrociously bad for months, yet everyone was still standing behind them. I understand every sport, game, and competition needs to have a team to "beat up on" and "bash" for apparently no reason. No 1 hyped the team to be top tier yet, as fans we just want to see them improve collectively and become more consistent. I will say that some days they look like they can tango with top tier teams, it was evident by the C9 series and NiP series; however, today was a not so good day. It happens. Lets see how they do at Starladder before we can gauge how they will be or how they play together. LAN tournaments are a whole other ball game and besides didnt they just become a team a month ago? That means they havent been together for that long and are pretty successful all things considered. (Win rate went from 30 % to almost 70%). EDIT: While win rate is not necessarily indicative of success, the previous iteration of TT was losing to Tier 5 teams on a regular, so it is nice to seem them winning series they should win in America. The last iteration of TT lost to Void Boys in a Bo3 for an example.
Great post; wish all team fans had this mentality, especially when things aren't perfect
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You make it sound as though it is easy for sea players to compete in china while ignoring all the resource and logistics difficulties. Have you forgotten how relatively poor the region is? Only Singapore can be said to be a wealthy nation, yet there's hardly any support/sponsors here. Then there's also language barriers which affect every sea team aside from Singapore/malaysia. And unlike na/eu where na players can compete on eu servers, good luck competing in PW servers as a sea player. Such a clever comment.
Lgd.int competing in Chinese tournaments was fine because it was not an easy route. I welcome any team that moves to china to compete.
Rave is a sea team competing in the sea region. Korea may not be a sea nation but in the dota context, they can generally be grouped together. That's because for the Asian scene, there's only china Korea and sea, and Korea isn't big enough to be viewed alone. Now the issue would be whether jeyo chose the easy route. He is after all an american citizen if I'm not wrong, but with pinoy origins. Initially I despised him for moving to Korea, but he has stuck around and committed himself to the project.
Zephyr move to Korea was also just for the money. I have zero respect for them. But it is not as bad as tinker. Why? Because they were part of the Korean project for a relatively long term.
Tinker? They're just moving to NA short term just for TI. They're probably going to disband after ti, so its not like its a long term project or anything. Plus you have 3/5 players who are from EU, and 2/5 players who are used to playing in EU. I'm not saying that they are not allowed to move to na or wherever to compete. They have every right to do so. I'm just questioning their motivations to do so, and I have zero respect for their decision.
[Edit]
The whole 40% na c9 thing that they used to sometimes play in na tournaments were bullshit too. Some of it though were tournament organisers choosing to put them there so as to increase the chances of their main event being more stacked. I wouldn't totally blame c9 on that one.
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What players on tinker besides PLD were used to playing in EU? last year Liquid was an NA team
so 1/5 players used to playing in EU, 3/5 used to playing in NA, and 1/5 used to playing in fucking china.
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On April 23 2015 11:11 DucK- wrote:
You make it sound as though it is easy for sea players to compete in china while ignoring all the resource and logistics difficulties. Have you forgotten how relatively poor the region is? Only Singapore can be said to be a wealthy nation, yet there's hardly any support/sponsors here. Then there's also language barriers which affect every sea team aside from Singapore/malaysia. And unlike na/eu where na players can compete on eu servers, good luck competing in PW servers as a sea player. Such a clever comment.
Lgd.int competing in Chinese tournaments was fine because it was not an easy route. I welcome any team that moves to china to compete.
Rave is a sea team competing in the sea region. Korea may not be a sea nation but in the dota context, they can generally be grouped together. That's because for the Asian scene, there's only china Korea and sea, and Korea isn't big enough to be viewed alone. Now the issue would be whether jeyo chose the easy route. He is after all an american citizen if I'm not wrong, but with pinoy origins. Initially I despised him for moving to Korea, but he has stuck around and committed himself to the project.
Zephyr move to Korea was also just for the money. I have zero respect for them. But it is not as bad as tinker. Why? Because they were part of the Korean project for a relatively long term.
Tinker? They're just moving to NA short term just for TI. They're probably going to disband after ti, so its not like its a long term project or anything. Plus you have 3/5 players who are from EU, and 2/5 players who are used to playing in EU. I'm not saying that they are not allowed to move to na or wherever to compete. They have every right to do so. I'm just questioning their motivations to do so, and I have zero respect for their decision.
[Edit]
The whole 40% na c9 thing that they used to sometimes play in na tournaments were bullshit too. Some of it though were tournament organisers choosing to put them there so as to increase the chances of their main event being more stacked. I wouldn't totally blame c9 on that one.
Would you feel the same way about DK moving to NA? Would you still be a fan? The assumption is yes, you would continue to support your team.
Now first of all, the C9 problem was 3/5 of the players lived and played in EU, 2/5 lived and played in NA. The argument was that they had a majority of the team living in a region they did not play in, so they had to switch to EU.
TT has 4/5 who are LIVING in Canada, 1/5 players LIVES in EU. Your argument, while has some valid points makes zero sense when talking about players living or moving to a region to play in. By that logic what if TT moved to CIS and suddenly started competing there? No one would care because CIS has VP Polar, Navi, Empire, and Hellraisers all of which are T1 teams and are dangerous. I honestly would rather TT qualify for TI5 than NAR2, Void Boys, NoT Today, or SFZ. Why? because they would get stomped out of TI5 in the group stages and would offer zero awesome games. TT on the other hand is actually a really solid team and still has potential to grow and flourish. That means they would actually be a serious contender (not to win TI5 - Side note: I think Secret will win) but to produce upsets and good results.
Now, this argument came about in SC2 when several Koreans decided to move to other countries and compete in "easier" qualifiers to get into WCS Championships. However, even Blizzard noted (after the changes to how WCS was scored and measured) that players who obtained Citizenship in a country could play there for purposes of the qualifiers, tournaments, etc. Black, Wayto, and Bulba all have citizenship in the Americas, therefore more than half the team meets the requirement by Valve (to be able to play in a region and TI qualifier placements) to compete in the Americas.
Like I said, valid points; however I think you would not feel the same way if your team your root for decided to move to another region to play there.
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I don't think black has citizenship
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On April 23 2015 11:58 xXxUnseenxXx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 11:11 DucK- wrote:
You make it sound as though it is easy for sea players to compete in china while ignoring all the resource and logistics difficulties. Have you forgotten how relatively poor the region is? Only Singapore can be said to be a wealthy nation, yet there's hardly any support/sponsors here. Then there's also language barriers which affect every sea team aside from Singapore/malaysia. And unlike na/eu where na players can compete on eu servers, good luck competing in PW servers as a sea player. Such a clever comment.
Lgd.int competing in Chinese tournaments was fine because it was not an easy route. I welcome any team that moves to china to compete.
Rave is a sea team competing in the sea region. Korea may not be a sea nation but in the dota context, they can generally be grouped together. That's because for the Asian scene, there's only china Korea and sea, and Korea isn't big enough to be viewed alone. Now the issue would be whether jeyo chose the easy route. He is after all an american citizen if I'm not wrong, but with pinoy origins. Initially I despised him for moving to Korea, but he has stuck around and committed himself to the project.
Zephyr move to Korea was also just for the money. I have zero respect for them. But it is not as bad as tinker. Why? Because they were part of the Korean project for a relatively long term.
Tinker? They're just moving to NA short term just for TI. They're probably going to disband after ti, so its not like its a long term project or anything. Plus you have 3/5 players who are from EU, and 2/5 players who are used to playing in EU. I'm not saying that they are not allowed to move to na or wherever to compete. They have every right to do so. I'm just questioning their motivations to do so, and I have zero respect for their decision.
[Edit]
The whole 40% na c9 thing that they used to sometimes play in na tournaments were bullshit too. Some of it though were tournament organisers choosing to put them there so as to increase the chances of their main event being more stacked. I wouldn't totally blame c9 on that one. Would you feel the same way about DK moving to NA? Would you still be a fan? The assumption is yes, you would continue to support your team. Now first of all, the C9 problem was 3/5 of the players lived and played in EU, 2/5 lived and played in NA. The argument was that they had a majority of the team living in a region they did not play in, so they had to switch to EU. TT has 4/5 who are LIVING in Canada, 1/5 players LIVES in EU. Your argument, while has some valid points makes zero sense when talking about players living or moving to a region to play in. By that logic what if TT moved to CIS and suddenly started competing there? No one would care because CIS has VP Polar, Navi, Empire, and Hellraisers all of which are T1 teams and are dangerous. I honestly would rather TT qualify for TI5 than NAR2, Void Boys, NoT Today, or SFZ. Why? because they would get stomped out of TI5 in the group stages and would offer zero awesome games. TT on the other hand is actually a really solid team and still has potential to grow and flourish. That means they would actually be a serious contender (not to win TI5 - Side note: I think Secret will win) but to produce upsets and good results. Now, this argument came about in SC2 when several Koreans decided to move to other countries and compete in "easier" qualifiers to get into WCS Championships. However, even Blizzard noted (after the changes to how WCS was scored and measured) that players who obtained Citizenship in a country could play there for purposes of the qualifiers, tournaments, etc. Black, Wayto, and Bulba all have citizenship in the Americas, therefore more than half the team meets the requirement by Valve (to be able to play in a region and TI qualifier placements) to compete in the Americas. Like I said, valid points; however I think you would not feel the same way if your team your root for decided to move to another region to play there.
I would have no respect for them as well. I'll probably be vocal about it because I loss respect for my team that I had high regards for. You got your assumptions very wrong.
Again I have no issues of the validity of them competing in NA. They have every right to which I mentioned already. It doesn't matter that 4/5 players live in NA now. The question is why out of those 4, 2 of them chose to move to NA from EU. Pld is Swedish and black is German. Black may or may not have a Canadian citizenship, but in his dota career he has been mainly based in Germany outside of his china stint. This means 3/5 players choosing the easy dota path of competing in the NA region.
I think that if they were to call themselves professionals, they should show some respect to themselves and strive for the best. All I see is them looking for shortcuts.
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EPT
