mousesports Discussion - Page 43

On January 12 2015 14:54 DucK- wrote:
Suddenly everyone is conveniently forgetting how sing single handily won games with his mirana and ember. I of course also remember how mediocre he is on heroes like viper or storm.

Sing is a fairly limited player for now in that he needs his drafter to draft around him and his strengths. TT has hardly drafted with sing in mind, and that has led to many miserable performances from him.

He is a good player, just not your normal I-can-play-any-hero-you-give-me type of player like fear or 430 or lanm

On January 12 2015 17:47 Shaella wrote:
? I just think he's overhyped and has a lot of stupid fanboys cause LELE TWITCH MEMES MASTURBATE thats all.

On January 12 2015 18:05 NInoff wrote:


He doesn't need to play Storm atm they have qojqva for that. SingSing is not bad at all.Yes he is not the best, but he can win games. More than enough. Dota is team game, not solo mid game.

On January 12 2015 14:54 DucK- wrote:
Suddenly everyone is conveniently forgetting how sing single handily won games with his mirana and ember. I of course also remember how mediocre he is on heroes like viper or storm.

Sing is a fairly limited player for now in that he needs his drafter to draft around him and his strengths. TT has hardly drafted with sing in mind, and that has led to many miserable performances from him.

He is a good player, just not your normal I-can-play-any-hero-you-give-me type of player like fear or 430 or lanm

On January 12 2015 18:40 Hoenicker wrote:


If you take everything some random internet personality spews forth personally, you are in for a tough life... I am a sing fanboy, fangay, fanhomo, BROMO, whatever you may want to call it, for sing entertains me, and I am happy when entertained. If you cannot fathom his humour, or understand his trolling, be at least klind enough to spew forth your toxicity in another thread.

Now lets talk about Jerax joining TT, HYPU. I think he is what they needed, a leader and drafter, with a non-ginormous ego. I hope it'll work out for them. I still think they need to kick bulba though, he is pretty aweful tbh. Or maybe ar1se, and let bulba offlane...

On January 12 2015 17:47 Shaella wrote:
? I just think he's overhyped and has a lot of stupid fanboys cause LELE TWITCH MEMES MASTURBATE thats all.

On January 13 2015 02:37 FHDH wrote:

Who cares? Seriously, why do you care?

Because it appears that he has an interest in the team lol. Shaella used to be a big TL fan if I remember correctly, and Tinker's still got the 2 best players from TL 2.0

On January 13 2015 03:01 bagels21 wrote:


Because it appears that he has an interest in the team lol. Shaella used to be a big TL fan if I remember correctly, and Tinker's still got the 2 best players from TL 2.0

Also the Sing best player on C9 during TI4 is pretty untrue. Sing's a great player on his core favorites(mirana, ember, meepo, kunkka etc.), but C9 sacrificed a lot of space and style for their drafts and played specifically so that Sing would be the most important core on the team. The team was built to make him look good. He's a good player but he was never the best or the worst player on C9

On January 13 2015 03:01 bagels21 wrote:


Because it appears that he has an interest in the team lol. Shaella used to be a big TL fan if I remember correctly, and Tinker's still got the 2 best players from TL 2.0

Also the Sing best player on C9 during TI4 is pretty untrue. Sing's a great player on his core favorites(mirana, ember, meepo, kunkka etc.), but C9 sacrificed a lot of space and style for their drafts and played specifically so that Sing would be the most important core on the team. The team was built to make him look good. He's a good player but he was never the best or the worst player on C9

On January 12 2015 10:06 Murkinlol wrote:
Sing was probably C9's best player at TI but people want to believe whatever narrative they want to believe. There were no talks about him being overrated but as soon as C9 goes a different direction with Fata, Sing is shit tier. Sure maybe there were communication issues, but they grabbed a player known for building mek and who was good on patch heroes. Now mek gets nerfed, the heroes got nerfed, and C9 still hasn't won anything even during an off season that features a shit Navi, bad Alliance team, and new teams everywhere. Now they felt the need to drop Aui and PLD as well. I mean good luck to C9 but their TI14 team was probably the best it will ever be and if you think Sing was the reason they couldn't do better you're delusional.

With Sing I had to give up a lot of that style of play as he was a very farm-intensive mid, which is a solid strategy no doubt, but it limited many of the other ways we enjoyed to play in general, especially considering that farm-oriented midlaners weren’t in vogue[sic] at the time.

bOne7 not being with us forced us into changing the entire way we played at that LAN. We had to put Sing on way less farm-intensive heroes in the off lane and we just noticed how unfamiliar he was to the position. Pittner’s job then was to just try and coach Sing to play the off lane but we just noticed after a while when we put him on those type of heroes like Clockwerk. That clockwork… I don’t know what the fuck he was doing, but whatever it was it wasn’t good. So bOne’s input just didn’t work at all, so we just decided to pick him PotM or Kunkka every game we could because those were the only offlaners he was comfortable on.

farm-oriented midlaners weren’t in vogue[sic] at the time.

On January 13 2015 06:30 FHDH wrote:

LOLOL

On January 13 2015 04:25 Procake wrote:


You also apparently want to believe whatever narrative you want to believe. I have no idea how you can say C9 hasn't won anything during the "off season"... what off seasn? Secret, EG or Vici have been in every tournament C9 has been in. The only "off season" has been this one where D2L happened, and C9 wasn't even in that tournament. C9 haven't been in any of these "off season" tournaments. (Also they actually did win an online tournament, against EG and Tinker) SingSing performed well on a few heroes, Mirana Ember etc. and the rest of the team would have be making space for him, it's evident from Team Tinker putting him on those heroes doesn't work when you don't have a team making space for you. I'm not saying he was bad, he was great on his main heroes, but the team always drafted around him being the most important player. They've been much more consistent with Fata, you can check the results to see (are people forgetting that with the old iteration of the on team with Sing, the joke was "Second place or last place"... Now it's just "Second place"). Fata's continued to perform well so I have no clue how you can say he's only good on "patch heroes" too or something stupid like because Mek was nerfed.

You can't call people delusional and then subsequently make things up to fit your narrative, or just be biased yourself. (imaginary off-season where EG, Secret, Vici and Newbee did not play any tournaments that C9 was in, Fata being a "patch hero" player, Sing being the best player on C9 at TI4, TI4 C9 being the best they will ever be, even though they were better after TI4)

On January 13 2015 13:33 Murkinlol wrote:



I'm referring to the off season that happens after every TI when teams reshuffle and generally aren't practicing as much, specifically it was well known the Chinese teams were not practicing before these tournaments . What I mean by the competition being weak is that the 2nd-3rd places don't mean as much when the competition doesn't get hard until that stage of the tournament. What's it matter if Secret, EG, or Vici are in the tournaments when they won't end up playing C9 till later on anyway? Examples being the world E-sport Championoships: LGD, Navi, Hyperglory Team, CDEC. World Cyber Arena: Alliance, Navi, LGD, Team Malaysia, IG. ASUS ROG Dreamleague: Alliance, MVP Phoenix, 4ASC, Tinker, Vitrus teams. These are the teams you had to go through to get to those last matches.

So yes, they've kept on winning 2nd places, but the competition to achieve these 2nd places hasn't been as strong as it used to be.

Now I've watched a lot of C9 and looked through all of their TI14 games, I've watched each game at least more than once.

During the round robin of TI14, Envy played 10 different heroes, Bone7 played 9 different heroes, SingSing and Aui played 8 different heroes, Pieliedie played 7 different heroes. Yet all you hear about is Sing can only play a few heroes. People see it written and just repeat it over and over without giving it any thought or analyzing C9's play. The truth is every player has their best heroes but for some reason it's never brought up with many other players. How often did they draft Batrider, NP, Clock for Bone7 or how often is Aui playing Visage or Enigma. Guess what, it's pretty often.

Even you saying "the team was always making space for him" tells me you don't analyze them much. So when they give Aui so much farm are they making space for Sing? When they stack the jungle so often for Bone to recover were they making space for Sing too?

"They always drafted around him being the most important player" This is completely untrue. Teams draft in multiple ways and for different reasons. They draft to run different strategies, to pick the strongest heroes, to counter what the other team is trying to draft, or as PPD said in his documentary, sometimes you just have to draft your most comfortable heroes.

C9 were a unique team and had interesting drafts, which was a big reason as to why they were my favorite team. But they drafted certain strategies often, one being the Drow/Visage pocket strat. They did this 3 times during the round robin to make use of Aui's strong visage play, Envy's strong Drow play and Drow's aura. They drafted Bane/Mirana 5 times, probably some overlap with Drow/Visage, because Sing is one of the best Mirana players in the world and it's a pocket strategy they as a team are very good at running.

During phase 3 and the main event, C9's drafting strategy centered on grabbing the strongest heroes and also putting players on their most comfortable heroes. They played 11 games, Doom was one of the top picks, and Envy played him four times, also Invoker twice. Aui got his Enigma twice, as well the top pick Shadow Shaman four times. Bone7 was drafted one of his best heroes, Clockwork, 3 times as well as getting Doom twice. Meanwhile Sing got one of his most comfortable heroes, Ember Spirit, 4 times and pocket Meepo strategies in 3 games.

So do they always draft around Sing? No. They gave him his strong heroes no more or no less than they did with every player but again, you only ever hear about Sing playing two heroes.

And I never said Fata was only good patch heroes, read what I wrote again. And that comment stems from an interview with Envy where he mentioned how much Fata liked building mek. The TI14 meta was all about an early mek on a core and pushing with tanky mid heroes. But looking at the meta now and the greedy Chinese lineups being run in the DAC, I feel like C9's TI14 lineup would do very well, better than their current line up. Sing is a greedy mid, Aui is a greedy support, and now with new comeback mechanics it has become much harder to punish greedy teams. The combination of Fata, notail, and misery are a different style than sing, aui, and PLD but I think the latter would perform better in this current meta. So like I said, good luck to C9 but I see TI14 being their peak.

On January 13 2015 13:41 bagels21 wrote:


So yes, they've kept on winning 2nd places, but the competition to achieve these 2nd places hasn't been as strong as it used to be.

It's not their fault that this is the case, so that's irrelevant anyhow. C9 no matter how you slice it has been a top 3 western team and top 5 team in the world postTI4.

I would answer your individual points, but I'm a bit busy now, anyhow

So do they always draft around Sing? No. They gave him his strong heroes no more or no less than they did with every player but again, you only ever hear about Sing playing two heroes.

Sing throughout the whole year was playing the same heroes(outside of the introduction of meepo later on), if you look at what Aui/PLD/Bone/EE were doing, they kept changing their heroes depending on the meta. EE for example (weaver/doom to luna/tinker to doom again and now tb/void etc.) The reason why we say they "drafted" around sing is because they would often sacrifice EE's farm and space so that Sing would have farm.

They would deliberately pick supports that would complement whatever hero Sing played. This isn't the case on Tinker, especially when you see them pick "old" Sing heroes. That's literally all we wanted to say about Sing.

Finally, the main reason I responded was because you made the random comment on how Sing was the best player on C9. It's clearly not the case as the team has gotten better after he left.

On January 13 2015 16:12 Saki [NETOGE] wrote:
Jerax to TT. Thoughts? Does anyone know if he can draft? Is he good?