Alliance Discussion - Page 124

Meiffeltower

Sweden674 Posts

January 18 2016 13:55 GMT

#2461

On January 18 2016 21:15 bluzi wrote:
Are alliance playing today ? seems unlikely ... but could be

oh god.. not this again.. Dota Pit League schedules ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED. I dont know but i dont think they are playing. I think that Kelly tweeted they are traveling today and arrive in Sweden around 23:00 CET ..

bluzi

4703 Posts

January 18 2016 15:41 GMT

#2462

On January 18 2016 22:55 Meiffeltower wrote:

Show nested quote +

100% , Domo arigato

spudde123

4814 Posts

January 18 2016 16:03 GMT

#2463

I don't think the right approach is to commit to pressuring Bulldog if he is on LD/NP. You can pressure him in the beginning if your carry can't handle his hero 1v1, but he will just farm passively in the jungle if that is needed or participate elsewhere if he is playing NP. What absolutely can't happen is that you concentrate on shutting down Bulldog and then you get smashed by the other 4 Alliance guys who all have high levels and farm because they have a completely free safelane so the supports can do all the pulls or rotations they want to do. After that Bulldog will just afk farm and help in pushing some towers for 10-15mins and suddenly he is relevant.

Imo to beat the sort of strategy Alliance is commonly running with a good safelane, s4 with a playmaking hero and Bulldog as the secondary carry you have to be able to smash the other 4 Alliance members during the time Bulldog has not yet caught up, or you have to be able to just trade farm and have a lineup that can compete as the game goes later. s4 is often the key player in Alliance's early fighting power due to his hero, so delaying his progression is pretty key. But because of the sort of heroes Bulldog tends to have (LD/NP/Brood for example) you often can't just leave him alone unless you have a very suitable safelaner for that specific matchup. It's not so easy to find the balance where you are strong enough in the lanes and early fights but you also don't put yourself under a massive clock.

wims80

1892 Posts

January 18 2016 16:09 GMT

#2464

I think that teams need to shut down S4 if they want to win against Alliance. He's the key player, and his role in the team is unique. If they shut down Bulldog he's just going to go jungle with his midas and he'll still be top networth at 25 minutes anyway. If they shut down Loda then Bulldog will take over as the carry. The most important player is clearly S4

Jotoco

Brazil1342 Posts

January 18 2016 16:51 GMT

#2465

I think both of you are over simplifying Alliance's strategy.

It complements itself so nicely it is hard to pin point ONE single flaw to exploit.

As both of you said, if you focus on one of the cores, the other two will probably run with it and you will be screwed. You have to win all three lanes to best Alliance, imo. That or outcarry then while not losing too hard.

How to do that? Hard to say. Only that you need lane bullies and pressure, as evidenced by some of the bans Alliance made (Razor, DP, OD). These bans, for me, evidence that Alliance wants to make sure at least one or two lanes will go very well and they can push towers early to an advantage.

They can, and will, trade roles occasionally. Just look at the item build flexibility Loda has. He will farm for early, mid or late, as needed. Bulldog will almost always stay greedy, but will try to change styles, coming into fights or staying in jungle. S4 will tempo control if he goes well, if not, Loda and/or Bulldog will pressure the enemy to create space for S4 to catch up, and then he resumes his tempo control.

And all of that is only looking at the 3 cores. Akke and EGM are easily one of the best support duos in the world and can complement any of those strategies superbly, going aggressive or passive as needed, while keeping vision on the right places.

It is really hard to defeat Alliance now, your lanes need to be superb and then you need to withstand the push or push yourself to not let then recover. All of these against a team with very fine team execution.

towel

Sweden156 Posts

January 18 2016 23:12 GMT

#2466

So we didnt get a direct invite to mdl

Maybe the invites were decided long before wca and starladder. Time to root for another team then (Team Spirit)

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

January 19 2016 08:53 GMT

#2467

The key is to not concentrate so much on bulldog ld, but to shut down s4 or loda. Alliance is fine sacrificing bulldog because it is difficult to truly shut down the hero due to the new jungle camp. Bulldog's LD wants to draw supports to concentrate on him, because 1v1 he can wreck most lanes. But if supports come, then he just jungles while wasting their time. He ends up getting a jungle timing midas always. So you end up achieving nothing significant by focusing on LD.

Meanwhile because of all the attention, loda and s4 have good farm in their lanes and are strong enough to carry the team through mid game. Then they end up with a window where they have 2 big cores + 1 powerful tempo hero. Loda and s4 are the ones alliance rely on to bring them to this window.

But if loda and s4 gets shut down, all alliance has is just a single core LD which is crap. Teams need to realise that the farmed LD serves to bring alliance 5man to a higher level, but if its the only farmed hero then it is useless.

Also perhaps consider to just straight out ban NP and LD. Who cares if alliance get wisp bat puck Chen. Alliance are not any more special with them than other teams running those heroes. The same can't be said with LD and NP.

sunrazgriz

Vatican City State1573 Posts

January 19 2016 11:45 GMT

#2468

liquid did ban np and ld , they ended up getting weaver for bulldong and he got the highest kill at the game

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

January 19 2016 13:08 GMT

#2469

On January 19 2016 20:45 sunrazgriz wrote:
liquid did ban np and ld , they ended up getting weaver for bulldong and he got the highest kill at the game

That game was all kuro fault for picking just earth spirit as their sole disable.

wims80

1892 Posts

January 19 2016 16:08 GMT

#2470

On January 19 2016 22:08 DucK- wrote:

Show nested quote +

That game was all kuro fault for picking just earth spirit as their sole disable.

I thought it was Alliance outskilling and outplaying Liquid, but whatever. It's all in the eye of the beholder

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

January 19 2016 17:29 GMT

#2471

On January 20 2016 01:08 wims80 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I thought it was Alliance outskilling and outplaying Liquid, but whatever. It's all in the eye of the beholder

Alliance played well and drafted well. But Liquid made it easy for them too with that shit draft.

sang

United States251 Posts

January 19 2016 18:22 GMT

#2472

On January 20 2016 02:29 DucK- wrote:

Show nested quote +

Alliance played well and drafted well. But Liquid made it easy for them too with that shit draft.

rofl you make no sense whatsoever. Your logic is that Alliance played well and drafted well but we need to attach an astrisk next to it because liquid didn't play/draft up to par...

Thats like saying football Team A played better than Team B who didn't play as good...but it would have been different if Team B played better, but maybe still not as good as Team A...because then Team A couldn't have played better than Team B? seriously...

I see so many EG/Liquid fanboys and Alliance haters trying to qualify their losses/Alliance's win with conditions of drafting better or playing better or whatever else.

Here are the facts: Alliance outdrafted and outplayed both Secret, Liquid and EG to win Starladder. By definition, that means they were better, there is no qualification necessary. Want to know why EG and Liquid drafted/played "poorly"? It wasn't because they are bad. No. It was because Alliance outdrafted and outplayed them. No conditional statements need to be attached. They got beat. Period.

bluzi

4703 Posts

January 19 2016 18:52 GMT

#2473

On January 20 2016 02:29 DucK- wrote:

Show nested quote +

Alliance played well and drafted well. But Liquid made it easy for them too with that shit draft.

They made it easy implies they couldve made it harder , hindsight is 20 20 and if you talked to KKY he could explain and convince you that his draft made sense during the pick phases , it just didnt work out as planned , you seem to go around and blaming no stun lineups , but this is the way the game is played , tons of lineups lack hard disables and they still work , are they harder to execute ? sure , do they have plus sides of course , it depends on so many variables that just saying "only ES have stuns" and make it sound like kky is somehow unaware of the amount of stuns his team has is dumb (this is a general respond to other threads where you blame no stun as to why liquid lost).

Duck open your eyes please , in EVERY SPORT AND EVERY GAME you can blame the losers for making mistakes that cost them the game : " hey he didnt guard messi and let him put the ball between his legs , his fault barca scored" or you can see it "OMG MESSI IS A GENUIS LOOK AT THAT GOALLLLLLL" , its all in the prespective , and you my friend are biased.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

January 19 2016 19:18 GMT

#2474

Look. Alliance played well, and they deserve the win. But the fact is Liquid has a shit draft. Will Liquid win with a better draft? Who knows.

My response is because sunrazgriz replied that even with NP/LD banned, Alliance shown that they could just pick Weaver. That is just wrong because the only reason Weaver worked in their draft was because Liquid had a shit draft with only Earth Spirit as their disable.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

January 19 2016 19:21 GMT

#2475

You guys are just too fucking defensive as though any comment is meant to shit on Alliance. Alliance current strategy with NP/LD is top notch and I give them credit because no team seems to be able to figure it out since 2013.

spudde123

4814 Posts

January 19 2016 19:23 GMT

#2476

What's wrong with assessing how one team did? The team that wins was the better team that day, but it doesn't seem very interesting to just say "they were better, end of story!". Instead you can look at what the teams did, why one team won and another one lost. I am also confused why people look at comments about drafts and see that as someone taking something away from the legitimacy of a win. Drafting is a huge part of pro dota, If you win because of drafts it means you were better the same way as if you win by just outplaying.

It is also fine to think a team drafted or played below their usual level. It doesn't mean the other team wasn't better, but it maybe influences how you expect things to go in the future. Whether that thought is accurate or whether perhaps the other team just made you look bad is another story, but even a good team just doing a mistake in draft or play is not anything unusual.

GinNtoniC

Sweden2945 Posts

January 19 2016 21:31 GMT

#2477

On January 20 2016 04:18 DucK- wrote:
Look. Alliance played well, and they deserve the win. But the fact is Liquid has a shit draft. Will Liquid win with a better draft? Who knows.

My response is because sunrazgriz replied that even with NP/LD banned, Alliance shown that they could just pick Weaver. That is just wrong because the only reason Weaver worked in their draft was because Liquid had a shit draft with only Earth Spirit as their disable.

I'm actually right behind you on this one.
What you're saying is that Weaver only worked in a particular situation because the enemy team lacked disables. I'm on board with this and this is generally how Weaver functions. I'm as much a diehard [A]-fan as these other lads but I'll admit your analysis is correct on this one.

Whether or not you tend to bash on teams not picking enough hard disables, I can't say. I haven't followed your posting history enough. I think you generally try to keep a balanced approach to post-game analysis. It's easy to get carried away and praise the winning team.

Alliance did play well. Was their draft great? Sure, considering they got a lot of comfort heroes and know how to play to their strengths. Have they suddenly figured out the patch and are miles ahead of every other team as they were in 2013? Hardly. The competition is much stiffer now than it was 3 years ago.

I for one am overjoyed seeing their (our?) great results this past month, but let's not get carried away. I'm convinced both Secret and EG will bounce back, not to mention OG. We have a huge target painted on our backs now; the other teams will be coming for us.

Zea!

9589 Posts

January 19 2016 22:08 GMT

#2478

Dong's interview before finals

Loda's interview after win

sunrazgriz

Vatican City State1573 Posts

January 20 2016 07:06 GMT

#2479

in game Alliance almost lost ,with DP , IO and gryo sure are better draft , only to FATA fault he died without buyback Alliance had opening to push. but in game two , what you are saying is true, Alliance have a better draft. liquid rely too much on jerax.