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On October 12 2015 04:22 DucK- wrote:
I still do not think xboct is the issue. I feel he has been let down by the drafts, Dendi and his supports a lot, so he doesn't get the room required to do his thing.
I wouldn't mind seeing Xboct offlane, when I see him play it due to draft he's seriously good at it. He has a great axe, great centaur and supposedly clockwerk is his favorite hero and he's number 3 on dotabuff on it.
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Dendi is not a good mid on this meta. That's a fact. He can win the CS battle, but he always ends roaming around the map looking for flashy plays instead of farming. I think he would be more successful playing offlane or even support
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Well, it should be quite clear by now that one of Xboct or Dendi needs to go if they ever intend to be a team that can win a big tournament again. If the organisation only want to cash in on the brand that is Na'vi Dendi and Na'vi Xboct, then sure they can keep them.
I guess it is a big risk, big reward kind of situation for the organisation, so I guess it is up to them how they want to approach it.
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On October 12 2015 09:58 BigO wrote:
Well, it should be quite clear by now that one of Xboct or Dendi needs to go if they ever intend to be a team that can win a big tournament again. If the organisation only want to cash in on the brand that is Na'vi Dendi and Na'vi Xboct, then sure they can keep them.
I guess it is a big risk, big reward kind of situation for the organisation, so I guess it is up to them how they want to approach it.
They should just try to do what IG and VP did, buy one of the CIS stacks and make 2 teams out of the 10 players. After the next major, shuffle the best 5 in one team.
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On October 12 2015 05:29 caiovigg wrote:
Dendi is not a good mid on this meta. That's a fact. He can win the CS battle, but he always ends roaming around the map looking for flashy plays instead of farming. I think he would be more successful playing offlane or even support
How many patches has Dendi said "it's not his meta"? It's comical at this point.
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On October 12 2015 05:29 caiovigg wrote:
Dendi is not a good mid on this meta. That's a fact. He can win the CS battle, but he always ends roaming around the map looking for flashy plays instead of farming. I think he would be more successful playing offlane or even support
now that you mention this it does make sense
Actually he plays like an offlaner should this few patches. Like even midgame he tends to stick with his team rather than split fighting and farming effectively like mids do nowadays
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I think xboct and dendi wont split. What they should do, is kick funnik and psm.
Alwayswannafly would be an awesome pickup and +1. I think xboct should go offlane and let some1 else play the carry role. they should try sonneiko as cap.
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On October 12 2015 04:13 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 03:11 Racket wrote:On October 12 2015 00:54 Bisu-Fan wrote:
This last draft epitomizes Na'Vi's struggles. Last draft was: "everyone, what do you wanna play?" -> "pudge, clock, beastmaster, ww, whatever" They new they had no chance and they gave no f*cks about the other teams. Or do you really believe they were executing some planned strat? Didn't you see how they teamfighted everytime anywhere, 3v5, 4v5, etc? Umm. He was referring to the Silencer Razor Axe Tusk Undying draft.
Well.. last draft means last draft, I cannot know that unless the post was made before that game and I cared looking at that.
If so, all good, nothing to say about that draft.
On October 12 2015 05:29 caiovigg wrote:
Dendi is not a good mid on this meta. That's a fact. He can win the CS battle, but he always ends roaming around the map looking for flashy plays instead of farming. I think he would be more successful playing offlane or even support
I don't know how people state such a thing when the whole team has no direction.
If we blame Dendi we can also blame Funnik and PSM because none of those excelled this last 16 games.
Some had bad games (even Sonneiko), some had acceptable games, but with a team which has no direction at all, questionable drafts and undecipherable strategy, how can someone say X player doesn't fit the meta?
How do you know Dendi is playing the way he does on his own instead of out of a captain command?
I will ask again, how many mid champions currently strong in this meta is Dendi not able to play?
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On October 12 2015 15:21 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 04:13 DucK- wrote:On October 12 2015 03:11 Racket wrote:On October 12 2015 00:54 Bisu-Fan wrote:
This last draft epitomizes Na'Vi's struggles. Last draft was: "everyone, what do you wanna play?" -> "pudge, clock, beastmaster, ww, whatever" They new they had no chance and they gave no f*cks about the other teams. Or do you really believe they were executing some planned strat? Didn't you see how they teamfighted everytime anywhere, 3v5, 4v5, etc? Umm. He was referring to the Silencer Razor Axe Tusk Undying draft. Well.. last draft means last draft, I cannot know that unless the post was made before that game and I cared looking at that. If so, all good, nothing to say about that draft. Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 05:29 caiovigg wrote:
Dendi is not a good mid on this meta. That's a fact. He can win the CS battle, but he always ends roaming around the map looking for flashy plays instead of farming. I think he would be more successful playing offlane or even support I don't know how people state such a thing when the whole team has no direction. If we blame Dendi we can also blame Funnik and PSM because none of those excelled this last 16 games. Some had bad games (even Sonneiko), some had acceptable games, but with a team which has no direction at all, questionable drafts and undecipherable strategy, how can someone say X player doesn't fit the meta? How do you know Dendi is playing the way he does on his own instead of out of a captain command? I will ask again, how many mid champions currently strong in this meta is Dendi not able to play?
Haha yea he made that post prior to the pudge game.
Again like xboct, I don't quite blame dendi because he doesn't get supported well enough, or is given hard match ups, or simply expected to do too much. I blame psm the most because his drafts have been crap, and navi has been clueless in his leadership.
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On October 12 2015 15:33 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 15:21 Racket wrote:On October 12 2015 04:13 DucK- wrote:On October 12 2015 03:11 Racket wrote:On October 12 2015 00:54 Bisu-Fan wrote:
This last draft epitomizes Na'Vi's struggles. Last draft was: "everyone, what do you wanna play?" -> "pudge, clock, beastmaster, ww, whatever" They new they had no chance and they gave no f*cks about the other teams. Or do you really believe they were executing some planned strat? Didn't you see how they teamfighted everytime anywhere, 3v5, 4v5, etc? Umm. He was referring to the Silencer Razor Axe Tusk Undying draft. Well.. last draft means last draft, I cannot know that unless the post was made before that game and I cared looking at that. If so, all good, nothing to say about that draft. On October 12 2015 05:29 caiovigg wrote:
Dendi is not a good mid on this meta. That's a fact. He can win the CS battle, but he always ends roaming around the map looking for flashy plays instead of farming. I think he would be more successful playing offlane or even support I don't know how people state such a thing when the whole team has no direction. If we blame Dendi we can also blame Funnik and PSM because none of those excelled this last 16 games. Some had bad games (even Sonneiko), some had acceptable games, but with a team which has no direction at all, questionable drafts and undecipherable strategy, how can someone say X player doesn't fit the meta? How do you know Dendi is playing the way he does on his own instead of out of a captain command? I will ask again, how many mid champions currently strong in this meta is Dendi not able to play? Haha yea he made that post prior to the pudge game. Again like xboct, I don't quite blame dendi because he doesn't get supported well enough, or is given hard match ups, or simply expected to do too much. I blame psm the most because his drafts have been crap, and navi has been clueless in his leadership.
Food for thought: seeing how many captains have been recruited and kicked, is it really a captaining problem??? Just sayin...
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its not a captaining problem. psm is just plain crap. at least with artstyle they had some sense of direction
EDIT. well the its not like the other members are doing well either, its just that psm is didnt really do navi any good
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I think Funnik plays like he's honestly bored a lot of the time. Some games you can see he's more into it, being more active in team plays. His Legion/Wisp synergy was one of the only times this tournament where I could still see it. A lot of the time, he plays like a guy who is just going through the motions.
Being in Navi probably pays well compared to most jobs for young people in Ukraine, so I understand why he wouldn't excuse himself, but it seems like his mind just isn't into Dota these days. He's now a married guy with other things to think about, and while that's a totally good and normal thing this job, with it's hours of practice and weeks of bootcamps, is not necessarily fit for normal lifestyles. Ask Xiao8 how that worked out.
So while I empathize with him from a human perspective, I think it's better for the team/organization/fans if he's cut.
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On October 12 2015 15:39 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2015 15:33 DucK- wrote:On October 12 2015 15:21 Racket wrote:On October 12 2015 04:13 DucK- wrote:On October 12 2015 03:11 Racket wrote:On October 12 2015 00:54 Bisu-Fan wrote:
This last draft epitomizes Na'Vi's struggles. Last draft was: "everyone, what do you wanna play?" -> "pudge, clock, beastmaster, ww, whatever" They new they had no chance and they gave no f*cks about the other teams. Or do you really believe they were executing some planned strat? Didn't you see how they teamfighted everytime anywhere, 3v5, 4v5, etc? Umm. He was referring to the Silencer Razor Axe Tusk Undying draft. Well.. last draft means last draft, I cannot know that unless the post was made before that game and I cared looking at that. If so, all good, nothing to say about that draft. On October 12 2015 05:29 caiovigg wrote:
Dendi is not a good mid on this meta. That's a fact. He can win the CS battle, but he always ends roaming around the map looking for flashy plays instead of farming. I think he would be more successful playing offlane or even support I don't know how people state such a thing when the whole team has no direction. If we blame Dendi we can also blame Funnik and PSM because none of those excelled this last 16 games. Some had bad games (even Sonneiko), some had acceptable games, but with a team which has no direction at all, questionable drafts and undecipherable strategy, how can someone say X player doesn't fit the meta? How do you know Dendi is playing the way he does on his own instead of out of a captain command? I will ask again, how many mid champions currently strong in this meta is Dendi not able to play? Haha yea he made that post prior to the pudge game. Again like xboct, I don't quite blame dendi because he doesn't get supported well enough, or is given hard match ups, or simply expected to do too much. I blame psm the most because his drafts have been crap, and navi has been clueless in his leadership. Food for thought: seeing how many captains have been recruited and kicked, is it really a captaining problem??? Just sayin...
No, the captain himself is not the problem. We have several times agreed on at least one of the three cores must leave if not two (I was really let down when they let go ArtStyle and signed PSM just because I expected a bigger change).
But given how NaVi did with ArtStyle and how they do with PSM, I can assume that PSM was a downgrade, not his fault, ArtStyle fit the role way better for these four players.
PSM can be a great leader but he clearly lacks something ArtStyle doesn't. Could PSM work better if NaVi changes one or two cores? Sure, but the chances of that happening are quite low, because you know ZG has either no real power or doesn't care at all or so it seems.
Let me do a plain and stupid comparison:
When you play WoW and you want to go raiding you need to match your team composition to the fights ahead, which usually means:
- Tanks
- Healers
- DPS single target
- DPS AoE
- Crowd control
With varying numbers of each category you adapt to the fights and try to clear the instance. If were to apply this to a dota team, we would need (between parenthesis from 0 to 5 what I think NaVi currently have):
- Strategies (2)
- Game plans (1)
- Drafts (2)
- Hero pools (2)
- In-game calls+leadership (1)
- Execution+mechanic skills (4)
- Adaptive thinking (0)
- Practice (?)
- Confidence (?)
- Team work (3)
Each one of these categories serve a purpose, the more you have the better results you can achieve.
What if ArtStyle have some perks which match NaVi's current roster better than those perks of PSM?
What if PSM worked better for YS because some other player filled the gaps lefts by PSM?
Possible solutions are:
- PSM adapts and acquire new perks
- PSM swapped with ArtStyle
- A core or two leave
- Current players adapt to fill the gaps
I would even put ArtStyle in for a while and a core out, that means ArtStyle+Sonneiko+PSM+2cores, and let PSM+Sonneiko+ArtStyle enrich themselves thanks to each other. See what you got and what you don't. There is a long way till next Majors, they have plenty of time to fool around and get better, that is if they don't make changes to the roster once again.
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Guys, Artstyle won't come back. Why would he? He got kicked, why would he come back to the team that kicked him?
Any other decent captain won't come to Na'Vi because right now they are literally tier 3 team, why would any decent player or captain join them?
The only players they can get are tier 2 players and captains who mostly join for the money, Na'Vi gives big salaries to their players, though without winning anything in the past 2 years with their Dota 2 team I highly doubt that can continue.
I think Na'Vi is going to disband really soon. I just don't see any changes that can make this team good. I think the players have been playing together for too long and the team dynamic is just not right for them to be successful.
I think Dendi and Xboct are the biggest negatives in the team, Dendi probably the most. He just can't keep up in farm with modern day mid players, he just falls off massively in the mid game and doesn't contribute anything. Their supports are also not big impact supports, they are not going to get big farm and maybe turn into semi carries like say Puppey or Aui2000 and some others do.
Its also very clear that PSM is a big, big downgrade over artstyle, but they kicked artstyle just like they've kicked every other captain in the past 2 years.
They kicked FNG after they won a tournament with him, their only one in over a year, brought in Goblack they didn't achieve anything, so they kick him and bring in artstyle, qualify for TI5 and start improving, but obviously don't place well at TI5 because they are bad and they are bad not because of artstyle, but in spite of him who actually kept them up. They kicked him and they've looked like garbage with PSM.
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On October 12 2015 16:44 BillGates wrote:
Guys, Artstyle won't come back. Why would he? He got kicked, why would he come back to the team that kicked him?
Artstyle is already back as Navi's sub player, at least until the transaction window opens again.
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On October 12 2015 16:44 BillGates wrote:
Guys, Artstyle won't come back. Why would he? He got kicked, why would he come back to the team that kicked him?
Any other decent captain won't come to Na'Vi because right now they are literally tier 3 team, why would any decent player or captain join them?
The only players they can get are tier 2 players and captains who mostly join for the money, Na'Vi gives big salaries to their players, though without winning anything in the past 2 years with their Dota 2 team I highly doubt that can continue.
I think Na'Vi is going to disband really soon. I just don't see any changes that can make this team good. I think the players have been playing together for too long and the team dynamic is just not right for them to be successful.
I think Dendi and Xboct are the biggest negatives in the team, Dendi probably the most. He just can't keep up in farm with modern day mid players, he just falls off massively in the mid game and doesn't contribute anything. Their supports are also not big impact supports, they are not going to get big farm and maybe turn into semi carries like say Puppey or Aui2000 and some others do.
Its also very clear that PSM is a big, big downgrade over artstyle, but they kicked artstyle just like they've kicked every other captain in the past 2 years.
They kicked FNG after they won a tournament with him, their only one in over a year, brought in Goblack they didn't achieve anything, so they kick him and bring in artstyle, qualify for TI5 and start improving, but obviously don't place well at TI5 because they are bad and they are bad not because of artstyle, but in spite of him who actually kept them up. They kicked him and they've looked like garbage with PSM.
I agree on almost everything but, what is the deal with Dendi? Everyone is so focused on criticizing him on the basis of how good other mids, who play for better teams, do.
If I were to analyze what the past 15 games showed so far, not only Dendi but every core usually ends up laning phase equally or even on top of their pars but when they have to capitalize that through objectives and teamfights during mid game they end up missing time windows, overextending or even picking the wrong teamfights. It is not Dendi, it is not Xboct, it is not Funnik, but the team as a whole.
For instance, yesterday game one versus MB, while taking racks mid after a good teamfight they overstayed fixated on the objective when any other team would have backed and started again, but no... two more hits to the racks, Necrophos ult on Dendi and two minutes out which translated into losing midlane and botlane barracks...
That is either not listening to your captain or your captain not telling you to back, both being bad decisions.
Second game against MB, Dendi did well against Beastmaster but as the game developed they couldn't shut down Magina, Beast died a LOT of times but his team found their way around his deaths and Dendi began to die repeatedly while his team chocked. They had no proper wave clear against NP which in turn built Aghs and turned that flaw in their opponent's draft to a huge advantage.
Again, if Dendi or Xboct are not doing well is not due to some individual inability to execute but to the team lacking direction, strategy, game plan and calls.
When they have the space to do whatever any other core do, they do it just fine if not better.
This does not mean they should stay, we said it many times already and there is no point discussing it further, either one has to quit if not both.
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It doesn't matter if the cores are doing good or bad. If the team is not doing well it is doomed.
I think that they've changed enough players to be able to say that the synergy between the cores is not there in the meta post TI4.
They were doing okish while puppey and kuro were still on the team. Not great but OK. After that its been a downfall.
It is time to split. Nothing else will help. Unfortunately.
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I hope they now split and are forced out of their comfort zone in new teams. It's just impossible to lead them whoever might be the captain, The decision making displayed in Navi for 2 years now is beyond awful, and this is not the captain's fault (even tho PSM did not show anything very good). The 3 cores are just too established as Navi stars while their game understanding seems to be very far behind the new top players. They might become tier 1 player again in new teams, where their voices wont matter as much as in Navi.
Thats my opinion, I have no doubt that Dendi and Hvost are still mecanically tier 1 player (I have a fair share of doubts about Funnik, even tho he played decent in this qualifier), but they are lacking way too much in other departments (the actual important things in Dota). And it doesn't feel they will fix this by staying together in Navi, where the captain role is already creepled before whoever takes it.
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Navi wont change till Dendi and Xboct part into different ways. the problem is not the mechanics, but the fact that the 2 core players are together from a lot of time, and their tactics are unchanged:
xboct picks a hard carry: he'll disappear till min 30 afk farming. meanwhile dendy will carry the team. so shut down Dendi to win midgame
xboct picks a semi-carry: na'vi wants to fight and win midgame. so gank xboct as much as possible and ignore dendi, win midgame-lategame
oh and there's another problem. Xboct aggressive tactics are so well known that teams lately are
baiting A LOT na'vi into ez ganks, knowing that xboct in particular can dive a tower for a kill without much thinking, and dendy WILL follow him to help.
if i can see this with my poor game knoweledge, imagine what pros can see in a duo that is unchanged from years
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On October 12 2015 20:25 Alcor wrote:
Navi wont change till Dendi and Xboct part into different ways. the problem is not the mechanics, but the fact that the 2 core players are together from a lot of time, and their tactics are unchanged:
xboct picks a hard carry: he'll disappear till min 30 afk farming. meanwhile dendy will carry the team. so shut down Dendi to win midgame
xboct picks a semi-carry: na'vi wants to fight and win midgame. so gank xboct as much as possible and ignore dendi, win midgame-lategame
oh and there's another problem. Xboct aggressive tactics are so well known that teams lately are
baiting A LOT na'vi into ez ganks, knowing that xboct in particular can dive a tower for a kill without much thinking, and dendy WILL follow him to help.
if i can see this with my poor game knoweledge, imagine what pros can see in a duo that is unchanged from years
U have some points the main is HVOST should be more flexible. TRUE.
But the main problem Navi has is Dendi is too strongheaded like a mule, he wont accept a captain, he wont listen to him he will question PSM's calls he questioned Art Style too. And thats deadly.
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EPT
