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As you can tell from my account name, I'm Chinese. I have been translating community articles from the West to Chinese, with proper credits to the original post and author, so the Chinese community could know more about the Western scene for more than two years. LiquidDota has been the gold mine I always keep an eye on and I want to shout out to Ver, whose article motivated me to go on this pursuit. Luckily I've been blessed with a good number of comrades who shared my motivation, together we even pulled out a bi-weekly column called “reddit weekly”, now with 35 releases, focused on translating memes/pics/shitposts from /r/dota2 to eliminate language barrier and enjoy Dota2 toghther as much as we can and managed to keep it non-commercial. As a moderator of a Chinese Dota2 forum with considerable amount of users, I’ve seen many similar events broke out in Chinese community. So please understand I came here with good intention and long time pursuit to bring two communities together.
This incident, to be honest, utterly destroyed my motivation, as well as many of my friends dedicated almost all their free time to build that bridge.
Here I'm trying to articulate how it went down in the Chinese community from a Chinese point of view along with some background stories, so it’s gonna be pretty long in order to give you the whole picture. I will at least try not to be biased but it's up to you to decide.
Before we start, I have to confess that I recognize myself as a patriot. However I did receive my undergrad and master education in US. I chose many courses related to China as Gen-Ed in college, easy A on one hand, but also to learn more about how the West perceived China on the other hand. I think I developed my critical thinking ability and started to question but also approve many choices Communist Party made in the past. But still, I'm Chinese and I'm a patriot.
The development of the incident in Chinese community has three key turning points, Skem’s racist remarks to start the whole thing, Kuku’s lying to the community which is the most important one and Valve’s statement delivering the killing blow. Each played irreplaceable role to the final ending of both player potentially be banned. So I’m breaking it down to three parts, in chronological orders in each part and as a whole for better understanding.
Skem’s involvement
I was watching that very game ignited the whole thing and immediately furious since that all chat didn't come with any context, which usually only served to be racist. The key opinion leaders (KOLs) in Chinese community were also immediately furious as many of them had oversea experience and knew how "chngchng" came around and so do I. To the Chinese community, this word is clearly racist, not only slur, not only pejorative, but straight out racist. In fact I cannot even find a worse racist remark to Chinese people than this one. Even though it might not be case for everybody for various reasons, and apparently not to the majority of /r/dota2, but it has been and will be the case for Chinese community.
Honestly I think CoL management handled it pretty well, at least, pretty fast. Investigation, fine and apology all came pretty quickly. But the thing is, it hadn't been communicated quickly and effectively to the Chinese community, and as probably the first racist remarks in a professional match, Chinese community wanted to see some blood, already talking about banning him. At that moment, I believed banning him might be too much, but a Valve statement and a Valve issued penalty with reasonable number of matches suspended seemed appropriate, comparing to Riot’s penalty on Svenskeren. Many fair KOLs called for some actions by Valve as well, but there were indeed some nationalist ones promoting further conflicts, which was rather inevitable I guess cuz appealing to fans was a business to them. However, I think the Chinese community had every reason to be furious. Being furious is not overreacting, it's a naturally emotional response when offended in the worst way possible, and the same logic applies to flaming him. It's the push to ban him that seems to be overreacting, at least to my point of view. It might be the perfect chance for Valve to end it with ease, but they didn't.
In the brief history of Dota2, foreign pros playing on Chinese server causing troubles had been a pain in all our asses, because they always talk shit. To most of the Western audience it’s nothing, trash talks should never be considered seriously. It’s kinda the belief I have as well after years of turmoil on US East, even though I prefer players rarely talk shit over the bad boiz, except RTZ cuz he’s hot af. Pros flaming the Chinese community as a whole in pubs while playing on Chinese server usually stirs a bit, but never goes too far. Sumail, for instance, is the perfect example, as he won his first trophy on Chinese soil with dashing Storm Spirit skills at a young age, it won him tons of fans in China and always the one compared to when we talk about young prodigies. But he did talk shit about China in pubs and even tweeted “fuck china” when he saw the offensive photoshoped pictures beheading him in response to his remarks in pubs. But honestly no one ever talked or probably thought of banning him, even nationalist people sincerely hated him, for his incredible skill and relatively young age as a talented TI winner. The Chinese way of response is to beat this brat in tournaments, so yes the community do celebrate and taunt this kid a bit when Chinese team beat EG, while flame the team losing to EG half-heartedly. See, as a community, we do fight ourselves within, and if there are reasons for both sides to fight against each other, it will eventually cool down in a short period of time.
Kuku’s involvement
But that’s not Kuku’s case. If there’s one thing we would never let go, that would be being lied to in official capacity, especially when most of the KOLs welcomed his appearance and promoted forgiveness, only to find it was a goddamn lie. He is the enemy of the state, and frankly speaking, I’m with the state.
Originally when Kuku’s remark showed up in Chinese community, I really believed it was entirely unnecessary cuz it was a pub game. It was nationalist KOLs attracting eyeballs to get more fans. Fair KOLs like Hoho, who is my role model on building bridges of both communities mutual understanding, didn’t even bother to spread the word. In fact TNC and Kuku did the best gesture possible by starting an account on Chinese SNS and posted their apology with “explanation”. I was also defending him after reading that “explanation”, calling out the Chinese community for jumping to conclusion and wished him all the best along with his daughter. Hoho along with nearly all KOLs, nationalist or not, reposted and called for peace with good words praising them approaching us on Chinese SNS. TNC had been spoken highly of by the Chinese community during the WCA shitshow, where the picture of them could only rest on the floor gained unprecedented sympathy and admiration of their perseverance thus produced the loudest unanimous criticism to WCA organizers along with S4 being sick and terrible production value. Should the “explanations” be true, it’d be the chance of TNC becoming the most liked SEA team by the Chinese community for our mistakenly blamed innocent people, but it was not.
If there was a turning point for everything to be cooled down, it’d be now, but that was to the other extreme. The “explanation” was a lie. The “explanation” of Kuku simply calling the Tiny player on the other side whose ID was “Ch*ngch*ng” was entirely horseshit because the Tiny player’s ID was changed to “Ch*ngch*ng” after the game, shown by Steam record. It is the exclamation mark of the entire incident, escalating it to an entirely unparalleled level. It would never come to this if he hadn’t lied to us. I would let it go if offensive words were used in pub with ease, but how dare you lied to the entire Chinese community, taking advantage of good intentions of the Chinese community, to cover up your mistake offending the Chinese people, on the Chinese turf? It inevitably became a problem targeting the Chinese, because it got Chinese marks all over it. Eventually, call me nationalist or hypocrite, I found enough reasons to hop on the hate wagon to ban this sob for good. Stop giving me meaningless bullshit about “maximum penalty”, once you ever lied to us, the credibility of the entire organization has been completely bankrupted. Here the Chinese community formed the first ever unified voice calling Valve for some actions, because we can no longer trust the organization to handle it.
Valve’s involvement and aftermath
It dragged nearly all the heat from Skem to Kuku, and of course anything that related to him, which include his daughter. There are Internet crazy mobs in every community and of course the Chinese community does the same. So all out the death threats and racist shit. I don’t approve of that action, but I understand their fury. It went even worse when the /r/dota2 reached consensus of “chngchng” was only a slur not racist and start spamming that on Wyk’s tweet of Chongqing Major announcement, which they found it looked eerily similar. So there goes the entire Internet mob raids on both sides and people accusing each other of hypocrites, making it a shitshow for everyone. At this point, it could never be undone anymore. But the Chinese community still had hopes for Valve serving our justice, which was shared with mine, to penalize the players, especially Kuku, which was never met with that announcement basically meant “It’s none of our business” by Valve. Everyone knows Valve might care about reddit but it never cared about the Chinese community. We never had a channel to communicate with Valve, but only to PerfectWorld, the proxy operator of Dota2 in China due to Chinese regulation requirements. PerfectWorld is really, as a matter of fact, an irresponsible company which always makes terrible operation decisions and the Chinese fans are so eager to let another company, except Tencent, to run the game. PerfectWorld is like Donald Trump for us, we all hate it and it’s indeed retarded mostly, but we had to live with it. With Valve handing it out and PerfectWorld doing probably nothing, together they served as the last straw on the Chinese community.
It seems like a common character that esport fans generally don’t trust the government, again the Chinese community works the same way. The Chinese government had a long and disappointing history against gaming in general. Gaming has been considered widely as the “electronic heroin” by the Chinese parents as well as the government, and there are clinics using electric shock therapy to “cure patients” with assumed “addiction to the Internet” with official local government support from early 2000 till now, even though those kids were merely the product of failed home education. Gaming is forbidden to be aired on public cable channels with central government issued orders. In the Chinese esport scene, it has been and probably will be just enthusiasts putting money and time to do whatever they loved and considered a career without any official supports. The public image changed a bit when we won several TIs, coming home with dazzling amount of prize money, finally made it to the national television news. It was Christmas for all of us, for that probably 10 seconds of Dota on TV and that was the fruit beared by all of us, just for that 10 seconds. Nothing changed state-wise, electric shock therapy were still going and the ban on TV were still active, but we were rearmed with motivation, which included me who later did my share of eliminating the language barrier. In our desperate time, the local government is the last ally we’d expect.
But our messiah came in the least likely form, the municipal government. It strikes me as the way Chinese community served its own justice since Valve failed to deliver. Honestly, I’m down, along with almost every single Dota fan who cared about tournaments. It might not be a Chinese thing, but it worked every time for the Chinese people, that when there were reasons for two sides to argue on, it’d resolve with our internal conflicts, but when there’s no reason to argue anymore, we’ll stand united against our common enemy, as we were demeaned to, lied to, and disappointed to. I don’t know about the West, but for Chinese community, this train will never stop until reached the end that nobody knows where. Should there be any attempt to stop it with external pressure, it will simply be bounce back with more ferocious retaliation.
Miscellaneous thoughts
Aren’t Chinese people all nationalists?
No and yes. It’s worth noting that be proud of being Chinese and be happy with the government are totally different things, and the conformity behaviors are exceptionally strong on esport enthusiasts.
The upbringing of youngsters and legacy players are different, but in some extent we are kinda the same. Legacy players are coming to their 30’s, facing all the problems in their lives, while the government has long been blamed for causing the major ones, real estate price and the cost to raise a child for instance. They hate the government in general. The youngsters including me, mostly in their 20’s or even younger, are raised to witness and benefit from the rapid development. When I was a kid, 10 RMB Big Mac was hell of a treat, and I still remember the happy look on my parents’ face looking at me enjoying that burger cuz they couldn’t afford three for us but only one for me. Now McDonald’s is probably the cheapest way to fill the empty stomach for kids in middle class family living in major cities. We do tend to credit the change of life quality to the government, especially as we are not bothered by real life troubles like real estate price or living expenses. However the free world propaganda is serving well creating anxiety and tension between us all, acting as a counterweight. Lucky kids like me having the opportunity to study abroad with access to more information about the things we don’t know too well back home also developed a more comprehensive image of our homeland. So personally I don’t think we should all be categorized as nationalists in general, as most of us hold certain shares of resentment to the government.
However most of us, if not all, are proud of being Chinese and as a matter of fact, China is a country with more than 90 percent of the population being the same ethnic group and the minorities don’t have a clear ethnic origin country they could relate to, thus it might strike Westerners as we being nationalists. I’ve been to many tournaments in both China and US, Dota2, CSGO, League of Legends, you name it. I’ve never been to SEA events so I can only present my point referring to US and China.
When it comes to cheering, it’s no denial that people cheer for their home countries or the countries they emotionally belong to, or cheer for Dendi. The difference between Chinese audience and US audience is, US as an immigrant country has far larger diversity than the Chinese counterparts. If some of the US audience have an ethnically origin, they’d cheer for both American teams and the team from their ethnic origin country when they are playing, relieving nationalist suspicions. And it is amplified by the conformity behaviors, when you hear cheering for a team you hold no grudge on, why not join the crowd? That’s a clear illustration of how diversity promotes friendships not conflicts.
We are indeed reluctant to cheer for foreign teams on home soil if it’s Chinese team against foreign teams, promoting the sense of nationalism. But please remember we have a very difference population base, lacking the seed for conformity behaviors to ever take effects. The glorious history of Chinese Dota further extended our unification as a single group sharing the same visions and preferences. It’s not a product of communism brainwashing, ain’t nobody in China still believes communism could ever worked. In my opinion it’s a omnipresent demonstration of national identity, which is amplified by the sheer number of the Chinese audience with limited or nonexistent diversity, making it looks 99% like nationalism. I won’t really argue against that, just providing my opinion to denounce the communist brainwashing narrative because we couldn’t give less shit about Communist Party. Should China be another democratic society in a parallel universe, as long as the Chinese people still echoes with their homeland and diversity still remains a problem, it won’t change a bit.
Are Chinese community easy to trigger and hard to satisfy?
Yes and no. We used to be triggered very easily because we tend to take everything seriously in pubs as a part of Chinese pubs culture. The difference in pub culture made us easy to trigger in the past so yes we were easy to trigger but getting more immunity over time. It’d be a totally different story when it is in interviews or social media though. And we are very easy to be satisfied in general.
As I stated, I’m a moderator of Chinese Dota2 forum, known for its scrutiny on the boundary of discussion, which is almost comparable to Resetera. I’ve seen many times how shitposters trying to stir the water with nationalism intention and as a matter of fact, often they succeed for a while. However there always will be people argue against it with strong arguments when the shitpost received a few replies. This is just how forum works, strong title clickbaits people share the point and when the number of people holding the same point reached a threshold, it starts to attract people with opposite opinion and they start to argue. It has been how nationalism related shitposts come around and go away. We argue against each other as long as the opposite side can find valid arguments then it resolves into oblivion.
The image of the Chinese community be triggered easily mostly comes from several past incident when we take chats in pub game seriously. However, it has been more and more prevalent for the Chinese community to be less triggered by anything happened in pubs. The culture in Chinese server is very much different with the rest of the world, especially for Divine and Immortal class players. We play so goddamn hard to win and take it super seriously, even with personal conflicts in the same team. There are many of such clips in which teammates verbally abusing each other relentlessly but still delivering buffs/controls/damages to win the team fight and the game. The popular streamers in China are also expected to play to win. They will definitely be flamed if they played poorly or simply throw the game. The Chinese audience has very little tolerance for throwing and trolling so less and less new streamers show up in the Chinese scene. We are simply not used to the habit of throwing games and going all out on racist remarks in pubs, since we are ethnically the same. It took us a few years and still gonna take time for all the Chinese community to understand pubs in servers outside China are generally circus where everything happens and should not be taken seriously.
However in interviews and social media, it’s a totally different story. Apparently ppd is the “role model” of being a bad boi so still a good percentage of the Chinese community hates him a lot. Stewie2k as another example, while his ethnic origin being Hong Kong provided a solid fan base considered him one of us, even though he never openly responded to such expectations from China. His tweet complaining his bag stolen in China saying “ofc it’s China” did trigger the Chinese community very hard. I think it’s a sense of betrayal, while we being nice to him and count him as one of us, he actually despise us as a whole. So yes, Chinese community is very easily triggered this way, and I don’t see anything could possibly change it.
On the other hand, we are so easy to be satisfied. When EternalEnVy typed “Ch*nks” in pubs a few years back and we hadn’t adopt the Western pub culture, he was flamed thoroughly by almost everyone, amplified by the sense of betrayal as I mentioned before for him being ethnically Cantonese. But after a while, when he lost many times to the Chinese team with unbelievable throws, it lessened a bit. Then he became one of the most favored players with foreign passport in the Chinese community, if not the most, as he started streaming in Chinese platform, sang a Chinese song in his broken Chinese and spoke that sentence on Shanghai Major in Cantonese so broken that even the traditional Cantonese people couldn’t tell what the hell he said. So really some attachments to China with sincerity will just eliminate any kind of hostility in the past.
Or you can try to be good ingame. Well that kinda backfired on Envy as if I’m saying he’s not good. Again I’m calling Sumail out. This kid really said some bad shit about China and he seems to be reluctant to change even a bit. But who cares, he’s so goddamn good. Awed by his sheer skills at display, the Chinese community respect him as a top talent and fighter for good result. Then whatever happened outside the games translated into defeating him in the tournaments, because as a community that really values results of the tournaments, we believe knocking him out is the ultimate retribution we could possibly deliver.
Here of course I’m talking about the general community excluding the Internet crazies. Crazies are so vocal and so wanted to be seen and heard. The language barrier blocked both sides to see clearly in the past. I tried, and I’m still trying.
Regardless of how the players really thinks of us and of our payback or forgiveness, it worked pretty well before DreamLeague S10. A mistake handled poorly by the only rightful judge topped with disastrous follow-ups and timings eventually ended up like this.
How can municipal government practically ban the players?
This is entirely my speculation and understanding of how the Chinese government works. In a nutshell, if you know the right person, you can do almost everything in China with appropriate coverups. But the conclusion, against many of the community outrages, is that the municipal government can’t practically ban the players, but it can practically make the tournament disappear.
Theoretically, according to Jack, it’s municipal government that issued the ban. It actually falls to my understanding of how the government works, making my speculation more trustworthy.
The municipal government runs in a parallel system with the border control and foreign affairs. They don’t overlap even a bit. The municipal government has absolutely no authority to stop anyone to get a visa to China, because they are issued by the Chinese embassy oversea, or stop anyone at the Chinese custom, because they are operated by the police department. So under the premises of everything works as it supposed to be, which usually would be the case, the municipal government has no chance stopping them stepping on the Chinese soil.
But there are exceptions, as I mentioned before, it’d be a piece of cake if the municipal government knows the right people, say the Chinese ambassador of Philippines, or the chief of police force of the city they arrive in. They can definitely deny the access of both players with ease and for good. They don’t even need explanations for that. The possibility of the unusual case actually strengthened since Chongqing is a provincial city, meaning its administrative level is the same as other provinces, as well as other provincial cities like Beijing and Shanghai. The previous governor of Chongqing almost succeeded in a coup to overthrow the current president of China and become the president himself. The city is very well-connected.
However the complicated situation somehow implied otherwise. Should the municipal government determined and is able to block two players from entering China, how on earth does the rumor comes out? It makes absolutely no sense. Such information should never be known before it actually happens. The municipal government couldn’t care less about the reaction of the Dota community, but as the reality suggests, it introduced unnecessary complications. That’s not how the Communist Party operates, not that sloppy.
So the logical conclusion is, the Chongqing Major proposal never caught the attention of the governor who could place the calls and make arrangements, but passed out to the coordinator in the government overseeing this rather small event. I took a gap year between my undergrad and master, worked as a coordinator for one of the Chinese organizers which hosted a Major and a Minor last year. To my knowledge, such coordinator is usually a low level clerk, who is only responsible for eliminating any potential hazards of the event. Security for instance, he will be coordinating the police force providing necessary security and approve plans for emergency evacuations, etc. His job is simply not to make any institutional mistakes which lead to the government, so the government won’t be blamed no matter happened. In Chinese bureaucratic systems, making no mistake is a must and there’s no second chance. Such coordinator will lose his job and be barred from government administrative jobs forever if anything goes wrong in a significant way. He heard about the two players with recent history of anti-China behaviors, which is a Class-A political hazard. He doesn’t give a crap about what the nature of the behavior is, he just doesn’t want to see the two players in the city. However his capacity is limited. It’s a amateur mistake to show your incompetent to higher-ups by asking them for help, and actually it’d be a big ask for a event as irrelevant as an esport tournament, so he cannot guarantee their absence within his capacity. What could he do? Judging by my past experience dealing with a city nearby, he will pass it out to the organizers.
If a event cannot run, the loss is all on organizers, that makes it the Achilles Heel the government has on the organizers. If the organizer failed to meet his requirements, the event will be cancelled without any room for negotiations, and that’s actually within the government coordinator’s capacity. So the problem is left to the organizers. It’d be a PR suicide for organizers to ban players with such reasons. So if I were IMBATV/PGL, I’d take advantage of the municipal government’s decision and revert the fire away, drawing the bullseye on the municipal government, for they pass down the problem and they don’t care about PR at all. And theoretically they are not bluffing or spreading false words.
So we finally arrived at our destination, is there anything done practically as of now?
The answer is clear, no. The ban is still hanging in the air waiting to be implemented somehow, but it won’t be implemented with the power of the authority of any kind. Skem and Kuku’s Chinese visa application would never be denied for political reasons, and neither would they be stopped at Chinese border for any made-up reasons. Should they be qualified for the Major, worst case scenario, the Major got cancelled by the municipal government as a whole for the organizer failed to meet the requirement of the government, or the organizers succeeded in persuading involved teams to forfeit or release the players.
Now do you see what the nature of the rumor is right now?
Yes, it’s the attempt of avoiding the event being cancelled by organizers taking advantage of the teams and communities knowing very little about how Chinese government works, spreading true but carefully crafted rhetoric to scare the teams to do their job without any PR disasters. In fact I see poor Kyle aka “Beef” of CoL seems to fell for the trick. He’s true to his words though, he indeed has never been approached by the government asking him to release the player, because the government would never bothered to do it.
TNC seems to choose a different path, trying to amend their reputations without releasing Kuku. It’s really unnecessary as it won’t matter, and it will be way harder as the government coordinator doesn’t care the nature of their offenses. What Kuku did will never be undone and that’s everything mattered to the local government. He shows up, tournament shuts down, plain and simple. Now IMBATV/PGL better be praying for TNC not qualified, or if they do, then hold my beer, I need some popcorn for the drama.
Does Skem and Kuku really mean it?
Now it’s entirely my conspiracy theory based on my personal experience as a Chinese in US and my knowledge of the players with the what happened on the superficial level where everyone can see but carelessly omitted. I’m not claiming it’s the case actually happened. I’m simply trying to make everything make sense.
Again this is conspiracy theory, you have been warned.
Several key points: Envy being super zealously vocal on this incident, and he’s speaking for the both sides. Envy has a history of using “Ch*nk” and “chngchng” is its variation. There are three people with Chinese ethnic in Team Complexity, Envy, Sneyking and Skem. Skem is a hardcore Envy fanboy, or at least he used to. Before it went sour, he has “Jacky Mao” in his ingame ID and his twitter account description showed his admiration of Envy.
So I assume Envy, Sneyking and Skem used the C-word a lot in the team. I used to see people do that too. I have a group of Singaporean friend who speaks some level of Chinese depending on how well they did in high school, and when they are together, with or without me, they call each other with C-words. So as a hardcore Envy fanboy and just a kid, Skem would do everything Envy told him to whatever it was and he considered whatever Envy did as righteous to imitate. With or without Envy’s encouragement, Skem said that in a pro game, a word he often use when talking to Envy and possibly Sneyking. And it went sour and escalate very quickly. Either for Skem being his fanboy or Envy told him to say so, Envy felt guilty for it and tried his best to amend it, which didn’t really work and broke Skem’s heart, changing his Twitter profile to something else. Envy was so desperate as a leader, role model, teammate and as a friend to make up for it so he was super zealous to be vocal and tried both sides to see if it worked. He knew Skem was imitating him or just following what he said without necessary sense of distinguishing occasions. He knew Skem had no racist intention while making racist remarks, but it was pro game and that was hardly a good excuse to be believed, even as the beloved player of the Chinese community. But in some way he didn’t want his involvement to be known by the entire community, Chinese one included. So he couldn’t just take the blame and make it his fault, for whatever motivation I don’t know.
If that’s the case, then the whole thing is a terrible mistake. Should Envy took the blame, it won’t be much for him from the Chinese community at all. Worst case scenario, he could still make it back by doing the trick he did back then. And people like me understanding how Asisn with Chinese ethnic origins will speak for him, along with KOLs like Hoho to turn it around. But again, it didn’t happen as we wished it would.
As for Kuku, there’s no justifiable excuse to lie to the entire community. Again lying to us is the turning point of the whole fiasco. Whoever made the decision to lie, the result was destined, and washed away all the credibility of everyone involved. Only Valve could turn it around but they chose not to, and now they are facing a harder choice to make, which Valve deserved.
Conclusion
I hope this post could give you more insight of the Chinese community. While it might not change anything, I’m trying to clear the mist between both communities and also some false stereotypes. Even though I’m no longer motivated, I still felt it’s my obligation to finish this one last ride. Regardless of what will happen in the future, I had no regret devoting my free time and a gap year to Dota2 community, even if it proved to be futile. I chose to post it here on LiqudDota because people here might actually have the patience to read, and as a tribute to the very forum that motivated me to bring communities together two years ago. I loved Dota2, and I loved the community.
Sincerely,
Raphael_The_Great
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Thank you, it was a great read!
First of all i think its blown way out of proportion. Compare it to the Mind_Control incident, which was arguably worse. I didnt see much from the russian community in terms of "off with his head" and Russia is a pretty nationalistic country as well. Are we really willing to practicly destroy the careers of an 18 and 22 year old because of one chat line?
I think China as a society is hard to understand from a western point of view.
How can anyone go crazy about an incident in a game while defending a country Orwell coudnt even dream off. I dont want this to come across like some "western superiority" bs but if you want to talk about the disconnect between the western community and the Chinese i think thats a big part. Imagine Skem and kuku writing a huge apology on Twitter and YouTube. It woudnt matter because neither is available in China.
I dont want to "flame China" or anything, i am just trying to give a "western" point of view.
Did they do something wrong? Yes.
Should they be punished? Yes.
But banning them into oblivion seems a bit excessive.
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so now you basically need a scapegoat and lets say at least 6 months in which the West is on probation(as far as communities go).
would getting TNC on stage in Chongqing pouring their hearts out in an apology, then let the public decide their faiths, work?.
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Regarding kuku though
Ive never been to the phillipines or anything, but i live in sea so i kinda "think" that i "sense" why he did what he did
Maybe off, but just for input to you.
In sea, we have a rather relaxed and uncomplicated culture, because (natural) resources in some ways is abundant, so is (love) (though not deep) in some ways, therefore the more important thing is how you stay healthy and play nice, play healthy.
Being uncomplicated is one of the prerequisite of that.
After all that, i think you overestimated the standard of planning and confused it with goodwill in some ways,
Goodwill only involves playing nice in my culture, because everyone understands, sometimes you mean well, sometimes you get emotional (badwill), and you can be both at the same time, infact everyone is most likely both at the same time, that much is natural
Therefore atleast BOTHERING TO TRY, is usually considered enough,
It doesnt matter as much how tidy it is, we kinda accept nobody is tidy, in fact, sometimes we consider over-tidiness in planning to be something complicated and worth suspecting, a negative
Therefore in this case, kuku trying to save his own skin, is not regarded (so) badly if it was in my culture, (not philipines btw) atleast, HE TRIED.
I believe we in sea, have our biological reasons why, if we opt to forgive these things easily, then we easily at the same time can be easy (and good) friends
This, is kinda what was expected from you sir, although expecting this, i know, is naive, and frankly impossible, given you're not familiar with the culture
I understand that obviously, this will be judged as NOT sincere, in where you are
But, sincerity comes in this place, by how long and how familiar you know a person, it is done more by mistakes, and mistakes forgiven by each other, and judged through a longer period of time
Even though i am by race, chinese, i somewhat grew to admire and appreciate this method, because it more than has it merits, it is the only way in this climate and environment
Hence why, even though i (as normally) wouldve ok-ed anything at anytime on any decision u make (whether to ban or not)
(It is YOUR RIGHT)
(And why would i care)
I would STILL point out the overreaction that was done, to involve valve over this, as something inappropiate
I mean, its true that you are (judged) unfairly, on other countries banning kuku wouldve been completely normal,
But you COULD have been extra nice and extra lovely to all parties, and i, as just another netizen who loves to criticize just about anything as my passtime, would voice this.
It really is nothing serious, not much is ever serious, but do remember again.
you COULD be, EXTRA NICE, to all parties, at about as low as cost as it would be, if it was me, (the pinoys?), or many others,
I am speaking this out of appreciation and care over your efforts, even though this is criticism
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Thanks for the information it really makes for a fuller picture. I cannot understand completely your position since I am not from China, although I agree that the mistakes made where actual mistakes and should by all means be punished. On the other hand though I can and will consider this an overreaction. What's the difference from him trying to save his pride by lying, and you trying to save your pride by agreeing on his ban. Being proud is not an issue but when that affects your judgement certainly seems wrong to me. Pushing for a punishment I can understand, banning the players I cannot.
Honestly I cannot understand at all how such small things can escalate so much. How can the municipal government even bother with a single person that said a single discriminating comment. How can this be an unforgivable situation, it's just something I can NOT comprehend sadly.
I totally agree on the other hand that this situation could have been handled much more effectively from Valve and will partially blame them for trying to take the 'not involved' route. Responsibility lies in all involved parties and really hope that this issue will be resolved quickly and in a peaceful and fair manner.
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On November 26 2018 22:21 Micro_Jackson wrote:
Thank you, it was a great read!
First of all i think its blown way out of proportion. Compare it to the Mind_Control incident, which was arguably worse. I didnt see much from the russian community in terms of "off with his head" and Russia is a pretty nationalistic country as well. Are we really willing to practicly destroy the careers of an 18 and 22 year old because of one chat line?
I think China as a society is hard to understand from a western point of view.
How can anyone go crazy about an incident in a game while defending a country Orwell coudnt even dream off. I dont want this to come across like some "western superiority" bs but if you want to talk about the disconnect between the western community and the Chinese i think thats a big part. Imagine Skem and kuku writing a huge apology on Twitter and YouTube. It woudnt matter because neither is available in China.
I dont want to "flame China" or anything, i am just trying to give a "western" point of view.
Did they do something wrong? Yes.
Should they be punished? Yes.
But banning them into oblivion seems a bit excessive.
I'm not a frequent user of LiquidDota so I'm not sure whether quoting is the right way to reply, since I didn't find the "reply" button.
Analogy is usually the best way to raise empathy, but I'm reluctant to do it because it is almost impossible to make a perfect analogy without introducing unnecessary excessive emotions. So as I only showed how my mentality and that of the Chinese community changed over time, I don't blame anyone for not understanding it thoroughly. But for understanding purposes I'll try.
Mind_Control case is hardly comparable to Kuku's case, given the fact that Western scene is generally lenient on pub games incidents and Liquid handled it in the best way possible by making same day announcement with detailed appealing package.
Kuku's response started off in the best way as well. Approaching the Chinese community by posting response on Chinese SNS is a huge plus in gesture, without that "explanation" I'm 100% sure it'd go away very soon. Even if TNC never responded, the flame will fade away after a while. It was initially some nationalist KOLs trying to catch eyeballs to start with anyways. I want to give another example here as well. On the weekend after these two incidents, Raven named his battle cup team "chngchng" and we also learnt about it, though they never responded, ain't nobody talks about it as of now. We don't jump on everything, only on what really matters, like racist remarks in pro game, or lying to the entire Chinese community.
I think what really triggered many Chinese including fair KOLs is still the lying part, the sense of betrayal we got when we are trying to play nice but he was not. Imagine someone leave a scar on you, he brought Band-Aid but secretly soaked it with lemonade. You happily take it as an apology and put it on, ready to call it a day since it's no big deal anyways, but the unusual pain from the scar made you realize he harmed you again. It might not be a good analogy but it's a bully story happened on my friend in elementary school. He never talked to him ever again for the next 4 years.
I think the first step to understand China and Chinese people, especially for the youngsters, is to take the country and the party apart from each other. The Chinese people can hardly recognize themselves as citizen of any other nationality by nature, and the Communist Party are not going anywhere in the near future. So should the Chinese people be cynical and publicly denounce the country as a whole? My answer is no, they'd denounce the party, but not the country. Immigrating to anywhere else, most Chinese people raised at home will still recognize themselves as Chinese and won't denounce our ethnic race, for it's something we could never change. My family is getting green card in US, but by no mean we'd ever be hating our homeland, not in this generation, nor in any generation after me. So what we are defending is not the China with Communist Party, but the Chinese as an ethnic race.
Coming back to Skem and Kuku, To most of the Chinese community after Kuku taunted us all, we no longer hold much grudge against Skem anymore. Any Valve issued penalty including like a 3-matches suspension on Valve event would do the trick to appease everyone. Riot did the same, and it's not lethal to Skem either, everyone's happy. As for Kuku, well, I can't say. I'm not talking about permanent ban, grounding him for this Chongqing Major only looks viable, since it's practically impossible for the Chinese government to take any actions.
Talking about the Chinese government on the ban, the founder of IMBATV just posted an opinion justifying their ban on Chinese SNS, which further fueled my speculation on the nature of the so-called government ban. IMBATV is riding a very dangerous wave right now and I'd like to see them fail, even at the cost of the entire Chongqing Major. If you don't wanna bother reading that part in my reflection again, let me outline the current government situation more concisely.
The nature of the government ban
Chongqing municipal government will never issue a ban on two players, neither at embassy not at custom. If it wanted to do so, we'd never know about it until it happens. The ban on players is an order from the municipal government to the organizers, as a requirement must be met or the event won't happen. To avoid PR suicide, the organizers take advantage of Western community knowing little about how Chinese government operates. They carefully crafted the rhetoric, changing the subject of the requirement from the organizer to the teams, as an attempt to scare teams to adjust their roster in their favors, while acting like innocent courier. As of now, no actual ban has and will be placed on the players by the Chinese authorities.
I would like the team management to learn about it and confront IMBATV/PGL with it. I'm 100% certain that it's the actual case.
In this case, neither of them will have any troubles coming to Shanghai if they qualified for TI for there's no ban on their visa or at the border. The Chinese government doesn't work that way.
On November 26 2018 22:43 xM(Z wrote:
so now you basically need a scapegoat and lets say at least 6 months in which the West is on probation(as far as communities go).
would getting TNC on stage in Chongqing pouring their hearts out in an apology, then let the public decide their faiths, work?.
It's not up to me to decide what's appropriate penalty, but it has to be issued by Valve and it has to be at least a suspension on Valve event. I purposed a 3-match suspension for Skem on Valve event, the same with Riot on Svenskeren and Kuku out of Chongqing Major as a whole while they can still play with stand-in should they qualified for LAN.
It's only my wishes though, might never cross the line in all Valve's wisdom.
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On November 26 2018 23:55 Toshiru wrote:
Thanks for the information it really makes for a fuller picture. I cannot understand completely your position since I am not from China, although I agree that the mistakes made where actual mistakes and should by all means be punished. On the other hand though I can and will consider this an overreaction. What's the difference from him trying to save his pride by lying, and you trying to save your pride by agreeing on his ban. Being proud is not an issue but when that affects your judgement certainly seems wrong to me. Pushing for a punishment I can understand, banning the players I cannot.
Honestly I cannot understand at all how such small things can escalate so much. How can the municipal government even bother with a single person that said a single discriminating comment. How can this be an unforgivable situation, it's just something I can NOT comprehend sadly.
I totally agree on the other hand that this situation could have been handled much more effectively from Valve and will partially blame them for trying to take the 'not involved' route. Responsibility lies in all involved parties and really hope that this issue will be resolved quickly and in a peaceful and fair manner.
It's dangerous practice to make juxtaposed comparisons because they might not be similar at all. You assumed his intention and our intention, in order to form such juxtaposed comparisons, which might not be the case. Precisely speaking, there are many difference between his lying to us with whatever motivation I'm not certain of and agreeing on his ban as a result of being offended twice in a row. Whatever motivation Kuku had, the action of lying is no doubt a form of offense, proving the ill intention of him or whomever made the decision. It clearly lies on the "wrong" side of the moral scale, which made worse by the content of the lie was trying to raise our guiltiness on blaming the innocent guy, taking advantage of our good intentions. Even if we are overreacting, we are still reacting to a proved misdemeanor with a justifiable cause. I can hardly find ill intended lies comparable with how far the justice should be served. Bottom line, one should be held accountable for lying, and one should be persuaded on how to deliver justice.
We can both agree to the disagreement on how Kuku should be punished, and honestly it's the problem of all collective grass-root movements, no consensus on the detailed terms could be reached, and everyone tend to goes to the extreme. Is it unacceptable for the Chinese community to demand not to see Kuku in Chongqing even if they qualified? I found it acceptable if I were given the chance to make that choice.
That being said, that opinion is shared by Chongqing municipal government as well. They just don't want to see people with fairly fresh anti-China records to be treated as a welcomed guest. It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. It's a potential political hazard which could be exploited by the nationalist Chinese, and I believe neither of us want to see those nationalist fuckers winning. The municipal government made the decision simply to answer the calls of the Chinese community, and it's municipal decision, so it can hardly be duplicated by any other Chinese cities hosting a tournament without the community outcry. Once the justice was served, it gives a good reason for the forgiving part of the community to argue with the nationalists when it comes to the next event hosted in China, when we could never form an unified voice against any player again. I believe it's a future that we can count on and live with.
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On November 26 2018 23:06 550 wrote:
Regarding kuku though
Ive never been to the phillipines or anything, but i live in sea so i kinda "think" that i "sense" why he did what he did
Maybe off, but just for input to you.
In sea, we have a rather relaxed and uncomplicated culture, because (natural) resources in some ways is abundant, so is (love) (though not deep) in some ways, therefore the more important thing is how you stay healthy and play nice, play healthy.
Being uncomplicated is one of the prerequisite of that.
After all that, i think you overestimated the standard of planning and confused it with goodwill in some ways,
Goodwill only involves playing nice in my culture, because everyone understands, sometimes you mean well, sometimes you get emotional (badwill), and you can be both at the same time, infact everyone is most likely both at the same time, that much is natural
Therefore atleast BOTHERING TO TRY, is usually considered enough,
It doesnt matter as much how tidy it is, we kinda accept nobody is tidy, in fact, sometimes we consider over-tidiness in planning to be something complicated and worth suspecting, a negative
Therefore in this case, kuku trying to save his own skin, is not regarded (so) badly if it was in my culture, (not philipines btw) atleast, HE TRIED.
I believe we in sea, have our biological reasons why, if we opt to forgive these things easily, then we easily at the same time can be easy (and good) friends
This, is kinda what was expected from you sir, although expecting this, i know, is naive, and frankly impossible, given you're not familiar with the culture
I understand that obviously, this will be judged as NOT sincere, in where you are
But, sincerity comes in this place, by how long and how familiar you know a person, it is done more by mistakes, and mistakes forgiven by each other, and judged through a longer period of time
Even though i am by race, chinese, i somewhat grew to admire and appreciate this method, because it more than has it merits, it is the only way in this climate and environment
Hence why, even though i (as normally) wouldve ok-ed anything at anytime on any decision u make (whether to ban or not)
(It is YOUR RIGHT)
(And why would i care)
I would STILL point out the overreaction that was done, to involve valve over this, as something inappropiate
I mean, its true that you are (judged) unfairly, on other countries banning kuku wouldve been completely normal,
But you COULD have been extra nice and extra lovely to all parties, and i, as just another netizen who loves to criticize just about anything as my passtime, would voice this.
It really is nothing serious, not much is ever serious, but do remember again.
you COULD be, EXTRA NICE, to all parties, at about as low as cost as it would be, if it was me, (the pinoys?), or many others,
I am speaking this out of appreciation and care over your efforts, even though this is criticism
Actually I believe it'd take a while for me to understand your point accurately and I need a few hours of sleep to put myself together. I promise I will edit and deliver a proper reply to you as soon as I wake up. Sorry about that.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
As the son of Chinese immigrants, I often see firsthand the xenophobic "it's us and them" attitude that mainland Chinese have towards the rest of the world. A mild example would be the term 'lao wai' which is informally used to refer to foreigners. It is comparable to the English 'Johnny Foreigner'.
A stronger example, that perhaps crosses the line into racism, is how white people are referred to as 'gui zi' or literally ghost or devil. It's a term my parents throw out quite often, I doubt with any real malice intended. Perhaps Chinese attitudes in the mainland have changed since they left, which was just under 30 years ago, but I doubt it. I think we've all seen or at least heard of racist ads on Chinese TV. Like the detergent ad where a Chinese woman puts a black man into a washing machine, adds the detergent, and out comes a Chinese man. So I suppose my question is this - do Chinese think racism is acceptable if only expressed in private?
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On November 27 2018 02:22 Raphael_YU wrote:]
Actually I believe it'd take a while for me to understand your point accurately and I need a few hours of sleep to put myself together. I promise I will edit and deliver a proper reply to you as soon as I wake up. Sorry about that.
Dont bother actually, im aware i often write things in wrong orders and with my personal tone added to it. So it comes out all weird.
Its just me n my dont touch dont do any, opinions
In any case
You explained how the ban is currently just a group's personal wish
And how it came to be, ok, everybodys got their personal thing
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I'm quite looking forward to reading this after work. Thanks for taking the time to type this all out. It looks like some great insight.
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On November 27 2018 02:19 Raphael_YU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 23:55 Toshiru wrote:
Thanks for the information it really makes for a fuller picture. I cannot understand completely your position since I am not from China, although I agree that the mistakes made where actual mistakes and should by all means be punished. On the other hand though I can and will consider this an overreaction. What's the difference from him trying to save his pride by lying, and you trying to save your pride by agreeing on his ban. Being proud is not an issue but when that affects your judgement certainly seems wrong to me. Pushing for a punishment I can understand, banning the players I cannot.
Honestly I cannot understand at all how such small things can escalate so much. How can the municipal government even bother with a single person that said a single discriminating comment. How can this be an unforgivable situation, it's just something I can NOT comprehend sadly.
I totally agree on the other hand that this situation could have been handled much more effectively from Valve and will partially blame them for trying to take the 'not involved' route. Responsibility lies in all involved parties and really hope that this issue will be resolved quickly and in a peaceful and fair manner. It's dangerous practice to make juxtaposed comparisons because they might not be similar at all. You assumed his intention and our intention, in order to form such juxtaposed comparisons, which might not be the case. Precisely speaking, there are many difference between his lying to us with whatever motivation I'm not certain of and agreeing on his ban as a result of being offended twice in a row. Whatever motivation Kuku had, the action of lying is no doubt a form of offense, proving the ill intention of him or whomever made the decision. It clearly lies on the "wrong" side of the moral scale, which made worse by the content of the lie was trying to raise our guiltiness on blaming the innocent guy, taking advantage of our good intentions. Even if we are overreacting, we are still reacting to a proved misdemeanor with a justifiable cause. I can hardly find ill intended lies comparable with how far the justice should be served. Bottom line, one should be held accountable for lying, and one should be persuaded on how to deliver justice. We can both agree to the disagreement on how Kuku should be punished, and honestly it's the problem of all collective grass-root movements, no consensus on the detailed terms could be reached, and everyone tend to goes to the extreme. Is it unacceptable for the Chinese community to demand not to see Kuku in Chongqing even if they qualified? I found it acceptable if I were given the chance to make that choice. That being said, that opinion is shared by Chongqing municipal government as well. They just don't want to see people with fairly fresh anti-China records to be treated as a welcomed guest. It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. It's a potential political hazard which could be exploited by the nationalist Chinese, and I believe neither of us want to see those nationalist fuckers winning. The municipal government made the decision simply to answer the calls of the Chinese community, and it's municipal decision, so it can hardly be duplicated by any other Chinese cities hosting a tournament without the community outcry. Once the justice was served, it gives a good reason for the forgiving part of the community to argue with the nationalists when it comes to the next event hosted in China, when we could never form an unified voice against any player again. I believe it's a future that we can count on and live with.
No offense but the first paragraph makes it sound like he hit someone with his car, ran away and then lied to the police. We are still talking about action that did not harm anybody directly.
And i am refering to the Mind_Control incedent because they are simular. Professional dota players making racist statements online and a local community reacting to it.
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i don't think you should be demotivated.
i'm replying because i see your intentions.
first of all, we are all human, have the same sort of intelligence, are capable of empathy, so on and so forth.
when people say that it is way overblown (a huge overreaction) they also need to accept that the chinese community have reasons to why they're offended, just like you would have reasons to be offended about anything else.
he's attempting to clarify that it's not as simple as punishing a mistake, and accepting that western folk can be dumb and stupid in different ways than other people across the world.
but you also have to understand just how stupid people can be to say something entirely unnecessary.
many of us are used to the dumb things that people think or say in public.
we also treat games as public space.
it's an environment where if you take the proper steps you can make yourself heard to an organization like coL and make absolutely sure they understand that it's not okay to do something like that.
you don't need to overreact for them because peers will assess each other and do something about it. the organization will do something about it.
his teammate will go over and say, "hey skem (or whomever) what you did was really fucking stupid, please think about these things and make sure you don't do it again. if you don't understand why it is a big deal i'll get someone to explain it, but take my word for it, it is really not worth even thinking these things about other people."
and that's it. they get fined, they get a lot of peer pressure, they feel the shame and whatever else for not thinking things through and having to deal with the mistake in public light. if it recurs, that person is a scumbag in this aspect of their life and they don't receive any support.
that is what we're used to, and it is frankly enough.
further punishment and everything added on top of that is considered an overreaction.
there was no reason for the train to start. we have better things to do with our lives than to feel offended and lied to.
so why do you need to continue to pursue justice?
is there actually a logical reason that doesn't involve hypocrisy?
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Chinese are collectivism-minded takes extreme pride from their national identity, looking for approval/identity of peers (sometimes international peers)...
Certain things a lot more offensive if it is racial discrimination against Chinese... it is a difference we should recognize. and celebrate, not the discriminate.. on the same hand, Chinese people treat their guest with extreme politeness and kindness... the reason for this is a foreign guest often associated with national identity and they will try their best to improve that identity. (ie. they will buy you free lunch)
today we enjoy the fruit of decades of hard working neo-liberalism.. LGBT rights, anti-racism etc.. try to be a part of the better... not the worse for spreading words like ching chong major....
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However most of us, if not all, are proud of being Chinese and as a matter of fact, China is a country with more than 90 percent of the population being the same ethnic group and the minorities don’t have a clear ethnic origin country they could relate to, thus it might strike Westerners as we being nationalists.
Mixing ethnic purity and reasons to be proud, we all love where this is going. Can't believe no one called you on that.
This overreaction screams racism way more than any cheap derogatory name all countries have for their neighbours.
Your nationalism is not looked upon. It really is the easiest way to manipulate the masses,
just providing my opinion to denounce the communist brainwashing narrative because we couldn’t give less shit about Communist Party. Should China be another democratic society in a parallel universe, as long as the Chinese people still echoes with their homeland and diversity still remains a problem, it won’t change a bit.
I strongly doubt it.
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I cannot read all this but we all hate perfect world.
So all thse rumors being banned by chinese government are just a scared tactic by people who might/might not have the power to do it.
Kind of agree with the whole assesmen on skem and kuku. Skem is just being dumb, the word probably slip out as a joke. No matter he will still pay for it but banning him from entering china is just too much.
Kuku , on the other hand, he doesnt show remorse. In one of the match in Kuala Lumpur major, theres a random pause by chinese observant. Afterward, near the end of the match when TNC forced the chinese team to concede, Kuku paused the game. I mayble look too much into it but thats pretty passive aggressiveness is showing he doesnt like chinese as a whole. I am not surprised Chinese community banded together in hatred when they found out Kuku lied.
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I appreciate your thoughtful post, Raphael, but I think a lot of the issues you bring up are very telling of the particular brand of insecurity and self-righteous indignation that seems to inform a lot of Chinese dialogue with the rest of the world.
Your original post provides a lot of context for why that is, but to my eyes, reads more like apologetics than an attempt at bridge-building which would necessitate at least a modicum of self-criticism and awareness.
There is, objectively, nothing wrong with being proud of and/or embracing any national culture. Issues have and will continue to arise, however, with the introduction of the ethnocentrism and ideas of collective "honor." Many of the most tragic episodes in human history have been precipitated by this tribal, ethno-collectivist framework.
Your posts are peppered with these problematic themes. These two stood out to me in particular:
"It would never come to this if he hadn’t lied to us. I would let it go if offensive words were used in pub with ease, but how dare you lied to the entire Chinese community, taking advantage of good intentions of the Chinese community, to cover up your mistake offending the Chinese people, on the Chinese turf?"
"So what we are defending is not the China with Communist Party, but the Chinese as an ethnic race."
It's worth remembering what we're actually discussing here: two kids making stupid, racist comments in a video game. Can you think of another country or ethnic group to whom this kind of reaction would seem proportionate? The fact that Han Chinese are, by definition, the least "endangered" ethnic group on planet Earth makes it even more perplexing.
Treating the comments of two individuals as some kind of orchestrated and insidious attack on all Chinese people just simply isn't warranted by the facts. It comes across as paranoid and disconnected, frankly.
One of the things I love most about Dota is how it crosses cultures and geographic boundaries. I've been lucky enough to enjoy this awesome game with people from all over the world. I'm disheartened to think you would stop enjoying Dota and cease promoting collaboration and friendship between players from different places because of this tempest in a tea cup.
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Thank you for taking the time to write all of this out. I feel getting a better idea of why this blew up as quickly and badly as it did is important. I was wondering if the Chinese community has also been discussing the idea of having a commissioner as Julmust suggested in https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/539385-op-ed-solving-the-dpcs-problems this post? I think it would be interesting to hear your opinion on having something like that as well.
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On November 27 2018 01:44 Raphael_YU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 22:21 Micro_Jackson wrote:
Thank you, it was a great read!
First of all i think its blown way out of proportion. Compare it to the Mind_Control incident, which was arguably worse. I didnt see much from the russian community in terms of "off with his head" and Russia is a pretty nationalistic country as well. Are we really willing to practicly destroy the careers of an 18 and 22 year old because of one chat line?
I think China as a society is hard to understand from a western point of view.
How can anyone go crazy about an incident in a game while defending a country Orwell coudnt even dream off. I dont want this to come across like some "western superiority" bs but if you want to talk about the disconnect between the western community and the Chinese i think thats a big part. Imagine Skem and kuku writing a huge apology on Twitter and YouTube. It woudnt matter because neither is available in China.
I dont want to "flame China" or anything, i am just trying to give a "western" point of view.
Did they do something wrong? Yes.
Should they be punished? Yes.
But banning them into oblivion seems a bit excessive.
I'm not a frequent user of LiquidDota so I'm not sure whether quoting is the right way to reply, since I didn't find the "reply" button. Analogy is usually the best way to raise empathy, but I'm reluctant to do it because it is almost impossible to make a perfect analogy without introducing unnecessary excessive emotions. So as I only showed how my mentality and that of the Chinese community changed over time, I don't blame anyone for not understanding it thoroughly. But for understanding purposes I'll try. Mind_Control case is hardly comparable to Kuku's case, given the fact that Western scene is generally lenient on pub games incidents and Liquid handled it in the best way possible by making same day announcement with detailed appealing package. Kuku's response started off in the best way as well. Approaching the Chinese community by posting response on Chinese SNS is a huge plus in gesture, without that "explanation" I'm 100% sure it'd go away very soon. Even if TNC never responded, the flame will fade away after a while. It was initially some nationalist KOLs trying to catch eyeballs to start with anyways. I want to give another example here as well. On the weekend after these two incidents, Raven named his battle cup team "chngchng" and we also learnt about it, though they never responded, ain't nobody talks about it as of now. We don't jump on everything, only on what really matters, like racist remarks in pro game, or lying to the entire Chinese community. I think what really triggered many Chinese including fair KOLs is still the lying part, the sense of betrayal we got when we are trying to play nice but he was not. Imagine someone leave a scar on you, he brought Band-Aid but secretly soaked it with lemonade. You happily take it as an apology and put it on, ready to call it a day since it's no big deal anyways, but the unusual pain from the scar made you realize he harmed you again. It might not be a good analogy but it's a bully story happened on my friend in elementary school. He never talked to him ever again for the next 4 years. I think the first step to understand China and Chinese people, especially for the youngsters, is to take the country and the party apart from each other. The Chinese people can hardly recognize themselves as citizen of any other nationality by nature, and the Communist Party are not going anywhere in the near future. So should the Chinese people be cynical and publicly denounce the country as a whole? My answer is no, they'd denounce the party, but not the country. Immigrating to anywhere else, most Chinese people raised at home will still recognize themselves as Chinese and won't denounce our ethnic race, for it's something we could never change. My family is getting green card in US, but by no mean we'd ever be hating our homeland, not in this generation, nor in any generation after me. So what we are defending is not the China with Communist Party, but the Chinese as an ethnic race. Coming back to Skem and Kuku, To most of the Chinese community after Kuku taunted us all, we no longer hold much grudge against Skem anymore. Any Valve issued penalty including like a 3-matches suspension on Valve event would do the trick to appease everyone. Riot did the same, and it's not lethal to Skem either, everyone's happy. As for Kuku, well, I can't say. I'm not talking about permanent ban, grounding him for this Chongqing Major only looks viable, since it's practically impossible for the Chinese government to take any actions. Talking about the Chinese government on the ban, the founder of IMBATV just posted an opinion justifying their ban on Chinese SNS, which further fueled my speculation on the nature of the so-called government ban. IMBATV is riding a very dangerous wave right now and I'd like to see them fail, even at the cost of the entire Chongqing Major. If you don't wanna bother reading that part in my reflection again, let me outline the current government situation more concisely. The nature of the government banChongqing municipal government will never issue a ban on two players, neither at embassy not at custom. If it wanted to do so, we'd never know about it until it happens. The ban on players is an order from the municipal government to the organizers, as a requirement must be met or the event won't happen. To avoid PR suicide, the organizers take advantage of Western community knowing little about how Chinese government operates. They carefully crafted the rhetoric, changing the subject of the requirement from the organizer to the teams, as an attempt to scare teams to adjust their roster in their favors, while acting like innocent courier. As of now, no actual ban has and will be placed on the players by the Chinese authorities.I would like the team management to learn about it and confront IMBATV/PGL with it. I'm 100% certain that it's the actual case. In this case, neither of them will have any troubles coming to Shanghai if they qualified for TI for there's no ban on their visa or at the border. The Chinese government doesn't work that way. Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 22:43 xM(Z wrote:
so now you basically need a scapegoat and lets say at least 6 months in which the West is on probation(as far as communities go).
would getting TNC on stage in Chongqing pouring their hearts out in an apology, then let the public decide their faiths, work?. It's not up to me to decide what's appropriate penalty, but it has to be issued by Valve and it has to be at least a suspension on Valve event. I purposed a 3-match suspension for Skem on Valve event, the same with Riot on Svenskeren and Kuku out of Chongqing Major as a whole while they can still play with stand-in should they qualified for LAN. It's only my wishes though, might never cross the line in all Valve's wisdom.
What do you think about the fact that the Russian community didn't call for MC to be banned? What do you make light of the fact that TNC's manager claimed to have posted Kuku's lie?
The fact that you are even suggesting a '3-match suspension' for Skem and a ban on Kuku is what is viewed as an overreaction. Most of us don't condone racism, but most also believes that the punishments imposed by their respective organizations are sufficient.
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Thank you for writing this. I really appreciate your effort on sharing china dota2 community's point of view.
So, to sum it up:
1. Skem's racist remark was forgivable.
2. Kuku's racist remark was forgivable.
3. Kuku's attempt to cover up was unforgivable - that was indeed.. unmanly, to say the least. I don't know english well enough to word it better.
4. The ChongQing municipal government has no ability to ban skem / kuku from China, but they have the ability to cancel the whole ChongQing major.
5. You suspected that the ChongQing municipal government representative is pressuring the tournament organizer to ban skem or kuku, because for him their arrival would be similar to allowing a political hazard into his domain which would risk his career forever.
6. You suspected the tournament organizer, who:
- obviously don't want the major to be cancelled by the municipal government because that's a lot of money lost,
- but also don't want to admit that they are actually the one with power to ban skem / kuku
- and don't want to deal with the shitshow fans will throw on them if they ban skem / kuku
is the one who spreads rumour about municipal government banning skem and kuku, AND at the same time persuading col and TNC to drops skem / kuku so they don't have to ban them publicly.
Correct me if any of my point is false, please.
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Hi,
I've read the entire post (it's interesting) and here's a perspective from a Pinoy who's also a quarter Chinese.
First off, I'd like to thank the OP for taking the time and effort to build bridges and close gaps between cultures and nations. It's very commendable, and I'm sad that your motivation has dropped. Still, I say you shouldn't be blamed. Everyone have setbacks sometime sooner or later, and maybe we just need some time off of what we're doing, do something else that we're interested in, and once we realize that we still want to build bridges and close gaps, then we can continue on it with renewed vigor.
I'd like to next talk about Skem's involvement. You have already said that maybe Skem looked up to Envy and other pros and didn't really want to demean anyone, much less the entire Chinese community. He's young, and may have been having too much fun. People here in the Philippines are really laid-back (well, most, as we can't really generalize everything). Fun fact, his IGN, Skemberlu, comes from Philippine gay lingo that doesn't really mean anything other than just, Skemberlu (like, just an expression). That said, I'd like to know more about why "chingchong" is considered really offensive. Is it as offensive as some people saying that Filipinos are a race of "servants" or "maids"? If it isn't then I'd think it was an immense overreaction the Chinese community's part to ban Skem. He was already issued a penalty, I don't think he deserves a ban.
Next, is Kuku and TNC's thing. This, I understand the rage. For those people saying that it's a little thing, sure, the racist remarks were not really a big deal especially since it was just a pub (happens all the time especially in SEA), but the big thing was that the apology was a lie. They not only made the community trust them and then broke their trust, it also hit the reputation of those big, vocal personalities in the community who defended them. It's like if I have a guy best friend who had a girlfriend, and we accidentally read a message from her to another guy that says "hi babe ^_^", and when he confronted her she says that it's a misunderstanding and that "babe" is his name. Of course I'd want to soothe the angst and will talk to my friend saying that there are guys who are named "Babe" (Babe Ruth?), and I do that, but then we catch her cheating the very next day. What would you feel? Yes, that's exactly what it is. Maybe some of you will say that "but cheating is not the same as racism", but you don't get my point. The point is, they lied, they spun them on their fingertips, and they broke their trust not just towards them but between the people who were lied to.
I'm not going to comment anything about Valve as I don't know enough to comment on it yet.
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On November 27 2018 11:19 Tio- wrote:
Thank you for writing this. I really appreciate your effort on sharing china dota2 community's point of view.
So, to sum it up:
1. Skem's racist remark was forgivable.
2. Kuku's racist remark was forgivable.
3. Kuku's attempt to cover up was unforgivable - that was indeed.. unmanly, to say the least. I don't know english well enough to word it better.
4. The ChongQing municipal government has no ability to ban skem / kuku from China, but they have the ability to cancel the whole ChongQing major.
5. You suspected that the ChongQing municipal government representative is pressuring the tournament organizer to ban skem or kuku, because for him their arrival would be similar to allowing a political hazard into his domain which would risk his career forever.
6. You suspected the tournament organizer, who:
- obviously don't want the major to be cancelled by the municipal government because that's a lot of money lost,
- but also don't want to admit that they are actually the one with power to ban skem / kuku
- and don't want to deal with the shitshow fans will throw on them if they ban skem / kuku
is the one who spreads rumour about municipal government banning skem and kuku, AND at the same time persuading col and TNC to drops skem / kuku so they don't have to ban them publicly.
Correct me if any of my point is false, please. i think people(you too, but people in here in general) skip over the most relevant part/phrase which is "The key opinion leaders (KOLs) in Chinese community". those dudes are the main culprits in this escalating drama. they 'influenced' (more of)the chinese community.
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Dunno about banning Skem. I mean CoL already benched him because of the often visa issues AND this incident, so banning him or not banning him makes little to no difference, unless we are talking about 1y ban or something. As for Kuku, as far as I know, for Chinese people. honor and integrity matter more than most Westerners can understand, so KOLs or not, the community would have not taken it kindly to be lied to. So I am not particularly surprised things went this far. Not sure what the correct course of action from Valve is in this case, but even if let's say Valve does nothing about it, correct me if I am wrong, but don't you require a visa to get into China? I mean, the regional government can surely put in "a good word" to make sure Kuku does not get a visa at least for the major...maybe even for TI
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On November 27 2018 02:24 ahswtini wrote:
As the son of Chinese immigrants, I often see firsthand the xenophobic "it's us and them" attitude that mainland Chinese have towards the rest of the world. A mild example would be the term 'lao wai' which is informally used to refer to foreigners. It is comparable to the English 'Johnny Foreigner'.
A stronger example, that perhaps crosses the line into racism, is how white people are referred to as 'gui zi' or literally ghost or devil. It's a term my parents throw out quite often, I doubt with any real malice intended. Perhaps Chinese attitudes in the mainland have changed since they left, which was just under 30 years ago, but I doubt it. I think we've all seen or at least heard of racist ads on Chinese TV. Like the detergent ad where a Chinese woman puts a black man into a washing machine, adds the detergent, and out comes a Chinese man. So I suppose my question is this - do Chinese think racism is acceptable if only expressed in private?
It's no denial that "it's us and them" mentality is the mainstream mindset of the Chinese community and it promotes segregation by nature. I believe there are reasons for it too, which would be a giant social research package that I cannot reproduce myself. To shed some light from my personal experience and my observation of the Chinese society, I believe the problem lies on diversity. I had a very enlightening conversation with my Japanese friend recently, and I'm amazed by how much our societies are similar, which we both agreed that the reason why both countries' shared image of xenophobic is rooted in the lack of diversity in the population. With more than 90% of the population being the same ethnic group with the same culture and habits, it's not surprising that they would stick together in unity as they don't communicate with people with other ethnic on daily basis, thus making them knowing little how to live with them. And of course it's my understanding and it's a very underdeveloped and unsupported idea, but it makes a lot of sense to me.
老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. However I don't think it suggests any xenophobic intention by having an informal word for as neutral as "foreigner" though. 鬼子 or "gui zi" on the other hand is indeed very strong and rather demeaning word. Here's a little history about it, this word is originally an abbreviation of 日本鬼子 or "ri ben gui zi" (Japanese gui zi), a word to describe Japanese people back in WWII. Due to the fact that Japan invaded us and conducted inhuman war crime to my homeland, if you find the English counterpart "Japs" justifiable, then this word used at that time would also be justifiable. However it's meaning gradually extended to describe all foreigners in demeaning ways, and that makes it racist as we are not exactly in war with any country at the moment.
30 years is a long time, and generation gaps are real. My dad while being PhD and visit other countries a lot and loved the weather/air/large house with lawn, he really hates foreign people and always call them 洋鬼子"yang gui zi"(foreign gui zi), but that never happens to me or my Chinese friends in US, even though some of them are as patriot as me. I believe is impossible for older generation to change as I failed many times re-educating them with critical thinking to equip them with a tool to tell the nonsense in rumors going viral on WeChat(Chinese Whatsapp). But the young generations in middle-class or upper echelon families are very open minded, probably even too open to embrace the West. I can see a clear line between my generation and my father's, and I have faith in a better future.
I'm glad you bring up the topic of how should racism be defined. It took me several Black History Months and several American History courses to understand how the N-word deserved its significance, which also inspired my understanding of racism. Social science is not like natural science, it's subject to change and has no absolute meaning of right and wrong. Therefore I believe racism works by the interaction of three parts, the word it self, the intention of the assumed offender and the perception of the assumed recipient. So interaction should be either the word itself is racist, or the assumed offender said a neutral word with racist intention, or both, which eventually perceived by the recipient as being offended. So when someone is offended by somebody saying something, we need to examine whether the word itself being racist, or the assumed offender has malicious intention, and either of them leads to the verdict, while neither showed up then it's likely to be a false alarm, or requiring another social campaign to tell people that the word is racist and don't use it against certain people. That kind of social campaign started by African American pioneers and continued by generations of African American people made the N-word to the position it rests now. Honestly I think it's a very fair social system to promote mutual ethnic respect, it's not as easy as all of a sudden someone decide some word is racist so everyone has to not use that word as he said. Word has to be spread with valid reasons, so the majority of the population can voluntarily agree with him, then we reached this social consensus that we had a word that's racist to certain people. For "chngchng", the campaign was started probably century ago, but progress has been slow, to slow to reach /r/dota2.
As for the question about private, I think it's important to emphasis on individuals. African American people say N-word to each other just fine, because they don't feel offended. Back to the interaction model, without recipient feeling offended, I think it's hardly justifiable to accuse the assumed offended saying words with racist nature to be racist, since there's no offence taken. So it's not about Chinese or any ethnic group, or being private or not, but the fact of whether there are people offended or not. Under the premises of fully understanding the meaning of the word used, it's the individual who decide whether he is offended or not, not by any third parties. When no offence taken, everyone's cool. So that applies to your question perfectly. Say Chinese talked about "gui zi" to another Chinese, and the other Chinese is cool with it, then this conversation is fine. Say we add another foreigner who speaks Chinese and he's offended by the word, then the Chinese doing the talk should be held accountable for racist. Say we remove the foreigner and add a camera, with both Chinese knowing this conversation will be on the record, and later show the tape to a foreigner who is offended, then the speaker should still be held accountable for racist. It's not a Chinese thing, but a common sense I believed in. The racist Ad you mentioned, is definitely racist, but that requires the majority of the population to raise empathy to the minority nearly nonexistent in China, which will take time to spread from the Internet to the rural areas. We are making progress though. In the last Spring Festival Gala, a show intended to promote the friendship between China and African people was considered extremely racist by the Chinese netizens and the producer of that show along with the writers had all been fired from the China Central Television.
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On November 27 2018 03:55 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 02:19 Raphael_YU wrote:On November 26 2018 23:55 Toshiru wrote:
Thanks for the information it really makes for a fuller picture. I cannot understand completely your position since I am not from China, although I agree that the mistakes made where actual mistakes and should by all means be punished. On the other hand though I can and will consider this an overreaction. What's the difference from him trying to save his pride by lying, and you trying to save your pride by agreeing on his ban. Being proud is not an issue but when that affects your judgement certainly seems wrong to me. Pushing for a punishment I can understand, banning the players I cannot.
Honestly I cannot understand at all how such small things can escalate so much. How can the municipal government even bother with a single person that said a single discriminating comment. How can this be an unforgivable situation, it's just something I can NOT comprehend sadly.
I totally agree on the other hand that this situation could have been handled much more effectively from Valve and will partially blame them for trying to take the 'not involved' route. Responsibility lies in all involved parties and really hope that this issue will be resolved quickly and in a peaceful and fair manner. It's dangerous practice to make juxtaposed comparisons because they might not be similar at all. You assumed his intention and our intention, in order to form such juxtaposed comparisons, which might not be the case. Precisely speaking, there are many difference between his lying to us with whatever motivation I'm not certain of and agreeing on his ban as a result of being offended twice in a row. Whatever motivation Kuku had, the action of lying is no doubt a form of offense, proving the ill intention of him or whomever made the decision. It clearly lies on the "wrong" side of the moral scale, which made worse by the content of the lie was trying to raise our guiltiness on blaming the innocent guy, taking advantage of our good intentions. Even if we are overreacting, we are still reacting to a proved misdemeanor with a justifiable cause. I can hardly find ill intended lies comparable with how far the justice should be served. Bottom line, one should be held accountable for lying, and one should be persuaded on how to deliver justice. We can both agree to the disagreement on how Kuku should be punished, and honestly it's the problem of all collective grass-root movements, no consensus on the detailed terms could be reached, and everyone tend to goes to the extreme. Is it unacceptable for the Chinese community to demand not to see Kuku in Chongqing even if they qualified? I found it acceptable if I were given the chance to make that choice. That being said, that opinion is shared by Chongqing municipal government as well. They just don't want to see people with fairly fresh anti-China records to be treated as a welcomed guest. It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. It's a potential political hazard which could be exploited by the nationalist Chinese, and I believe neither of us want to see those nationalist fuckers winning. The municipal government made the decision simply to answer the calls of the Chinese community, and it's municipal decision, so it can hardly be duplicated by any other Chinese cities hosting a tournament without the community outcry. Once the justice was served, it gives a good reason for the forgiving part of the community to argue with the nationalists when it comes to the next event hosted in China, when we could never form an unified voice against any player again. I believe it's a future that we can count on and live with. No offense but the first paragraph makes it sound like he hit someone with his car, ran away and then lied to the police. We are still talking about action that did not harm anybody directly. And i am refering to the Mind_Control incedent because they are simular. Professional dota players making racist statements online and a local community reacting to it.
"Directly" is still composed of many aspects, so physically, no, but mentally and emotionally, severely. The problem of our misunderstanding of the magnitude of the offence still lies at the fact that our feelings of being lied to cannot be effectively empathized by the rest of the global community. I'm not a good writer in English and as an engineering student, I'm very reluctant to write sensational words to incite demagogue among the readers as I consider it despicable. But judge by how populism rose in the recent years, it indeed does the trick and maybe that's what the Chinese community really need to do.
So I don't blame anyone for not getting the same feelings as we do. But I can guarantee that at least for me, who have been practicing for many years to have a heart of stone so I could make logical judgement under most occasions, my feeling of being lied to by Kuku was overwhelming, even though I'm usually not an emotional person. I believe you can tell it from my original post as well, while only the Kuku part and Dota made it to state news part did I use some emotional expressions, because that's what I really felt. As for the rest of the post, it's very peaceful.
I think I talked a lot about MC, and by no mean I can speak for the Russian community on why they didn't speak out, but it's obvious that Team Liquid's same day announcement with detailed relieve package and sincerity definitely helped a lot, which is something entirely different on Kuku. The similarity of how it happened doesn't really imply the communities should react the same way with different damage control approaches.
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"Directly" is still composed of many aspects, so physically, no, but mentally and emotionally, severely. The problem of our misunderstanding of the magnitude of the offence still lies at the fact that our feelings of being lied to cannot be effectively empathized by the rest of the global community. I'm not a good writer in English and as an engineering student, I'm very reluctant to write sensational words to incite demagogue among the readers as I consider it despicable. But judge by how populism rose in the recent years, it indeed does the trick and maybe that's what the Chinese community really need to do.
So I don't blame anyone for not getting the same feelings as we do. But I can guarantee that at least for me, who have been practicing for many years to have a heart of stone so I could make logical judgement under most occasions, my feeling of being lied to by Kuku was overwhelming, even though I'm usually not an emotional person. I believe you can tell it from my original post as well, while only the Kuku part and Dota made it to state news part did I use some emotional expressions, because that's what I really felt. As for the rest of the post, it's very peaceful.
I am sorry but i just dont really get why this is so deply personal to you. This did not affect the live of a single person negatively besides the idiots that sayed it.
I think I talked a lot about MC, and by no mean I can speak for the Russian community on why they didn't speak out, but it's obvious that Team Liquid's same day announcement with detailed relieve package and sincerity definitely helped a lot, which is something entirely different on Kuku. The similarity of how it happened doesn't really imply the communities should react the same way with different damage control approaches.
So what MC did wasnt as bad because Team Liquid has a better PR department then TNC does? Is this really what you are implying?
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On November 27 2018 18:32 Raphael_YU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 03:55 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 02:19 Raphael_YU wrote:On November 26 2018 23:55 Toshiru wrote:
Thanks for the information it really makes for a fuller picture. I cannot understand completely your position since I am not from China, although I agree that the mistakes made where actual mistakes and should by all means be punished. On the other hand though I can and will consider this an overreaction. What's the difference from him trying to save his pride by lying, and you trying to save your pride by agreeing on his ban. Being proud is not an issue but when that affects your judgement certainly seems wrong to me. Pushing for a punishment I can understand, banning the players I cannot.
Honestly I cannot understand at all how such small things can escalate so much. How can the municipal government even bother with a single person that said a single discriminating comment. How can this be an unforgivable situation, it's just something I can NOT comprehend sadly.
I totally agree on the other hand that this situation could have been handled much more effectively from Valve and will partially blame them for trying to take the 'not involved' route. Responsibility lies in all involved parties and really hope that this issue will be resolved quickly and in a peaceful and fair manner. It's dangerous practice to make juxtaposed comparisons because they might not be similar at all. You assumed his intention and our intention, in order to form such juxtaposed comparisons, which might not be the case. Precisely speaking, there are many difference between his lying to us with whatever motivation I'm not certain of and agreeing on his ban as a result of being offended twice in a row. Whatever motivation Kuku had, the action of lying is no doubt a form of offense, proving the ill intention of him or whomever made the decision. It clearly lies on the "wrong" side of the moral scale, which made worse by the content of the lie was trying to raise our guiltiness on blaming the innocent guy, taking advantage of our good intentions. Even if we are overreacting, we are still reacting to a proved misdemeanor with a justifiable cause. I can hardly find ill intended lies comparable with how far the justice should be served. Bottom line, one should be held accountable for lying, and one should be persuaded on how to deliver justice. We can both agree to the disagreement on how Kuku should be punished, and honestly it's the problem of all collective grass-root movements, no consensus on the detailed terms could be reached, and everyone tend to goes to the extreme. Is it unacceptable for the Chinese community to demand not to see Kuku in Chongqing even if they qualified? I found it acceptable if I were given the chance to make that choice. That being said, that opinion is shared by Chongqing municipal government as well. They just don't want to see people with fairly fresh anti-China records to be treated as a welcomed guest. It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. It's a potential political hazard which could be exploited by the nationalist Chinese, and I believe neither of us want to see those nationalist fuckers winning. The municipal government made the decision simply to answer the calls of the Chinese community, and it's municipal decision, so it can hardly be duplicated by any other Chinese cities hosting a tournament without the community outcry. Once the justice was served, it gives a good reason for the forgiving part of the community to argue with the nationalists when it comes to the next event hosted in China, when we could never form an unified voice against any player again. I believe it's a future that we can count on and live with. No offense but the first paragraph makes it sound like he hit someone with his car, ran away and then lied to the police. We are still talking about action that did not harm anybody directly. And i am refering to the Mind_Control incedent because they are simular. Professional dota players making racist statements online and a local community reacting to it. "Directly" is still composed of many aspects, so physically, no, but mentally and emotionally, severely. The problem of our misunderstanding of the magnitude of the offence still lies at the fact that our feelings of being lied to cannot be effectively empathized by the rest of the global community. I'm not a good writer in English and as an engineering student, I'm very reluctant to write sensational words to incite demagogue among the readers as I consider it despicable. But judge by how populism rose in the recent years, it indeed does the trick and maybe that's what the Chinese community really need to do. So I don't blame anyone for not getting the same feelings as we do. But I can guarantee that at least for me, who have been practicing for many years to have a heart of stone so I could make logical judgement under most occasions, my feeling of being lied to by Kuku was overwhelming, even though I'm usually not an emotional person. I believe you can tell it from my original post as well, while only the Kuku part and Dota made it to state news part did I use some emotional expressions, because that's what I really felt. As for the rest of the post, it's very peaceful. I think I talked a lot about MC, and by no mean I can speak for the Russian community on why they didn't speak out, but it's obvious that Team Liquid's same day announcement with detailed relieve package and sincerity definitely helped a lot, which is something entirely different on Kuku. The similarity of how it happened doesn't really imply the communities should react the same way with different damage control approaches.
After checking all the comments, this seems to be one of the situations that we can agree to disagree  . It's one that I cannot help but see differently (possibly due to the difference in culture), although I do understand your point of view.
I just hope that Valve can come up with a solution to appease everyone.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Wait, i am out of loop but what exactly is demeaning about CC? For a language where a name pronounced wrong becomes an insult, CC really sounds harmless, you know.
Heck, in comparison banana sounds like far harsher a slur on it's own merit.
That said, lying in one's apology is truly worth being butthurt over, i agree with that one.
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On November 27 2018 03:58 nanaoei wrote:
i don't think you should be demotivated.
i'm replying because i see your intentions.
first of all, we are all human, have the same sort of intelligence, are capable of empathy, so on and so forth.
when people say that it is way overblown (a huge overreaction) they also need to accept that the chinese community have reasons to why they're offended, just like you would have reasons to be offended about anything else.
he's attempting to clarify that it's not as simple as punishing a mistake, and accepting that western folk can be dumb and stupid in different ways than other people across the world.
but you also have to understand just how stupid people can be to say something entirely unnecessary.
many of us are used to the dumb things that people think or say in public.
we also treat games as public space.
it's an environment where if you take the proper steps you can make yourself heard to an organization like coL and make absolutely sure they understand that it's not okay to do something like that.
you don't need to overreact for them because peers will assess each other and do something about it. the organization will do something about it.
his teammate will go over and say, "hey skem (or whomever) what you did was really fucking stupid, please think about these things and make sure you don't do it again. if you don't understand why it is a big deal i'll get someone to explain it, but take my word for it, it is really not worth even thinking these things about other people."
and that's it. they get fined, they get a lot of peer pressure, they feel the shame and whatever else for not thinking things through and having to deal with the mistake in public light. if it recurs, that person is a scumbag in this aspect of their life and they don't receive any support.
that is what we're used to, and it is frankly enough.
further punishment and everything added on top of that is considered an overreaction.
there was no reason for the train to start. we have better things to do with our lives than to feel offended and lied to.
so why do you need to continue to pursue justice?
is there actually a logical reason that doesn't involve hypocrisy?
First of all thank you for your understanding on the Chinese community being triggered in the first place. /r/dota2 still have a lot of troubles to come this far.
Now as I mentioned, the Chinese community is almost past the phase being mad at Skem. We are all on board the emotional train, which gets ready after Kuku's lie and starts after Valve handed it down. So for Skem, Chinese community including me are referring to Riot's penalty on Svenskeren, who said almost exact same thing in Taiwan. Considering it's a pro game and Valve should protect its integrity and public image. It's a widely accepted argument and I think it's fair.
As of now I don't see any kind of similar incident in other esport scenes we could refer to for Kuku's case. However he concept of public space is a good point. Differentiating pub games and pro games into general public space and restricted public space seems like a good practice to me, which opened an entirely new world we could relate to. But it's not my intention to justify anything, merely trying to show what happened and how the community feel on the other side of the table. I've been through too many impossible debates over hypocrisy. The word itself literally make me sick and honestly the hypocrisy debate only ends where both party believes the other one is hypocrite. "If you don't agree with me then you are a fucking hypocrite!" It happened god knows how many times for the last few weeks on /r/dota2.
The rule of thumb to reconcile when both side believes they are justified on what they ask but don't understand neither accept what each other asks for, is to find the middle ground where both party could retreat to. While I introduced our stand and how we get here, you also introduced your stand which seems to be shared by many as I see these points pretty often. As I never forcefully asked any of you guys to share my point, I can hardly find any reason for the Chinese community and I to just live with yours voluntarily. However it's not up us to decide where the middle ground is, but still we don't even know who's on the table to make the call. I guess we can just wait and see.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On November 27 2018 19:51 lolfail9001 wrote:
Wait, i am out of loop but what exactly is demeaning about CC? For a language where a name pronounced wrong becomes an insult, CC really sounds harmless, you know.
Heck, in comparison banana sounds like far harsher a slur on it's own merit.
That said, lying in one's apology is truly worth being butthurt over, i agree with that one.
I'm pretty split on whether CC is offensive. I think it essentially boils down to make fun of the way the language sounds/Chinese people speak. But at the same time making of fun of accents is a commonly accepted form of comedy.
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On November 27 2018 14:50 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 11:19 Tio- wrote:
Thank you for writing this. I really appreciate your effort on sharing china dota2 community's point of view.
So, to sum it up:
1. Skem's racist remark was forgivable.
2. Kuku's racist remark was forgivable.
3. Kuku's attempt to cover up was unforgivable - that was indeed.. unmanly, to say the least. I don't know english well enough to word it better.
4. The ChongQing municipal government has no ability to ban skem / kuku from China, but they have the ability to cancel the whole ChongQing major.
5. You suspected that the ChongQing municipal government representative is pressuring the tournament organizer to ban skem or kuku, because for him their arrival would be similar to allowing a political hazard into his domain which would risk his career forever.
6. You suspected the tournament organizer, who:
- obviously don't want the major to be cancelled by the municipal government because that's a lot of money lost,
- but also don't want to admit that they are actually the one with power to ban skem / kuku
- and don't want to deal with the shitshow fans will throw on them if they ban skem / kuku
is the one who spreads rumour about municipal government banning skem and kuku, AND at the same time persuading col and TNC to drops skem / kuku so they don't have to ban them publicly.
Correct me if any of my point is false, please. i think people(you too, but people in here in general) skip over the most relevant part/phrase which is "The key opinion leaders (KOLs) in Chinese community". those dudes are the main culprits in this escalating drama. they 'influenced' (more of)the chinese community.
KOLs can not escalate anything if they don't have any basis to enrage the community with. Sure, they might add one thing or another, but something worth being angry needed to happen before they can do that.
I've been thinking for a while about this, and I think the correct term about Kuku's actions is irresponsible.
See, I observed that racist remarks are tolerable if the perpetrator assumes responsibility for it.
Sumail takes responsibility on his racist remarks by being good.
Envy takes responsibility on his racist remarks by streaming in chinese, sang chinese song, etc.
MC takes responsiblity on his racist remarks by quick apology and damage control by TL.
Skem on Kuku's racist remarks would be forgivable if they took responsibility for it. They did. But then we found out that Kuku is trying to dodge his responsibility - that is, being irresponsible.
Being politically incorrect is fine (loosely using this word here), but you have to be responsible; take the consequences: don't expect general population to follow your opinion.
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On November 27 2018 19:51 lolfail9001 wrote:
Wait, i am out of loop but what exactly is demeaning about CC? For a language where a name pronounced wrong becomes an insult, CC really sounds harmless, you know.
Heck, in comparison banana sounds like far harsher a slur on it's own merit.
That said, lying in one's apology is truly worth being butthurt over, i agree with that one.
Maybe Google could help you on why CC is demeaning and racist, and you can also find how Riot dealt with Svenskeren saying the same thing. I don't blame anyone who doesn't know the word too well, but I'm sure you'd understand the nature of the word after this 10-minute research.
Thanks for your understanding on the lying part. Glad my reflection reached you.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 27 2018 20:10 Raphael_YU wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 19:51 lolfail9001 wrote:
Wait, i am out of loop but what exactly is demeaning about CC? For a language where a name pronounced wrong becomes an insult, CC really sounds harmless, you know.
Heck, in comparison banana sounds like far harsher a slur on it's own merit.
That said, lying in one's apology is truly worth being butthurt over, i agree with that one. Maybe Google could help you on why CC is demeaning and racist, and you can also find how Riot dealt with Svenskeren saying the same thing. I don't blame anyone who doesn't know the word too well, but I'm sure you'd understand the nature of the word after this 10-minute research. Thanks for your understanding on the lying part. Glad my reflection reached you.
Google explained to me that CC is making fun of Chinese language phonetics and story of related aggression towards Chinese migrants that used CC as a basis for offensive rhymes, that is precisely why i am confused.
If the history of offensive usage of a word originates in kindergarten-level taunts, and basically ends there, it needs to be very insulting on it's own. And CC is basically limited to making fun of phonetics without any deeper insult... well, actually there probably is, given onomatopoeia "Ka-Ching" and one of tones for Chong, maybe that is why you guys are actually offended by it because it actually is a genius and downright racist insult like that... but kindergarten age kids would not figure it out.
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On November 27 2018 06:40 OmniEulogy wrote:Thank you for taking the time to write all of this out. I feel getting a better idea of why this blew up as quickly and badly as it did is important. I was wondering if the Chinese community has also been discussing the idea of having a commissioner as Julmust suggested in https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/539385-op-ed-solving-the-dpcs-problems this post? I think it would be interesting to hear your opinion on having something like that as well.
Actually it's the very thread you quoted that motivated me to write everything down as I see LiquidDota editors/mods are really making some good points of how to move forward together as one other than secretly developing a narrative to blame the Chinese community, and I'm not talking about /r/dota2, *wink wink*.
I strongly agree with that, but as the post suggested already, it's a job that's almost impossible to last. He will be held responsible for everything happened in Dota2. Whoever takes the job has to be like Jesus making no mistakes and everyone needs to at least holds no grudges against him to start with. Just the last part of not too many people hating him, has already made it impossible for any Chinese figure to take the job as the representative of China. Chinese community is toxic inside man. Forum like SG is literally a shithole where everyone got flamed. It's like 4chan/dota2/zh-cn.
The only righteous candidate I can think of, is actually, probably against every Chinese fan's wishes, PerfectWorld. But they could hardly be trusted for such responsibility. I had friends working in PerfectWorld, and coincidentally its headquarter is in biking distance from my home in Beijing so we get together a lot. Used to be a operation specialist in CS:GO China, he saw and I learnt how people were just doing nothing about anything there. The only perk of this private corporation is that PerfectWorld is very well-connected with the government in many levels. Many offspring of government officials are working there while never actually go to work but still get paid, just to keep those connections. That of course worsen the atmosphere of the company, which included CS:GO China and Dota2.
Now come to think about it, it might also be PerfectWorld telling the Chongqing municipal government to start the whole thing. They definitely have governor's numbers.
In all, when we do have a system like that, the Chinese community will eventually find a representative to communicate with the commissioner that everyone could live with. If there's a campaign to show Valve that we need an actual operation team for the game, count me in. I'll pay for my own expense to show up in Seattle to join the cause if necessary.
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hmm i think end of the day it's a mismatch of expectations from both communities.
No one is arguing that Skem and Kuku should be unpunished but the punishment must be proportionate to the crime.
There is also a measure of reasonableness, nationalism right or wrong is evidently important or even sacred to Chinese people but perhaps a running joke in majority of countries.
Inadvertently western audience do not appreciate the reaction from Chinese community and find it cause for ridicule which further infuriates and fuels the anger.
I don't know I've being around long enough to see the same type of drama over and over... so I can just say this:
When you grew up, you kinda learn to stop giving a fuck about things and focus yourself on things that matter.
Let's not forget why we are here, to enjoy dota at its highest level, I'm sure this latest wave of dramas will fade once the pro season really kicks in.
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On November 27 2018 05:31 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +However most of us, if not all, are proud of being Chinese and as a matter of fact, China is a country with more than 90 percent of the population being the same ethnic group and the minorities don’t have a clear ethnic origin country they could relate to, thus it might strike Westerners as we being nationalists. Mixing ethnic purity and reasons to be proud, we all love where this is going. Can't believe no one called you on that. This overreaction screams racism way more than any cheap derogatory name all countries have for their neighbours. Your nationalism is not looked upon. It really is the easiest way to manipulate the masses, Show nested quote +just providing my opinion to denounce the communist brainwashing narrative because we couldn’t give less shit about Communist Party. Should China be another democratic society in a parallel universe, as long as the Chinese people still echoes with their homeland and diversity still remains a problem, it won’t change a bit. I strongly doubt it.
That's a very blatant implication you made here, and I'm glad that you are the only could understand my word that way which assured me that I'm mostly talking with sane people.
To answer your distortion of my intention, it's a description of Chinese population breakdown, and a group too large in number and too short on diversity being proud of the country they live in, will strike the observers as a nationalist group. Combined with what I explained in the very paragraph afterwards
The difference between Chinese audience and US audience is, US as an immigrant country has far larger diversity than the Chinese counterparts.
Together it showed US audience with 72% Caucasian, 13% African American, 5% Asian and 10% other races, together being proud of being American, doesn't seem to be nationalist at all for their diversity, however the Chinese audience with 91% Han and 9% other races, together being proud of being Chinese, seems to be nationalist for our lack of diversity.
I recommend you to read an article published by New York Times, in their latest series about China. The title is "How China’s Rulers Control Society: Opportunity, Nationalism, Fear". Looks like a easy click bait but says quite the opposite. Check out the story on James Ni and Hua Yijia, so you can see why Chinese people are proud to be Chinese without even giving a flying fuck about the Communist Party propaganda which did shit. I respect your doubts, but I also respect the truth.
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Americans and most of the world are not nationalist because it is an outdated ideology used previously to further nation state agenda, its a trick played on the masses. It's a cancer on humanity.
Chinese are patriotic because of shared history and memories, Chinese are nationalist because they all got sold the bullshit peddled by the current regime.
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On November 27 2018 05:58 crocshark wrote:
I cannot read all this but we all hate perfect world.
So all thse rumors being banned by chinese government are just a scared tactic by people who might/might not have the power to do it.
Kind of agree with the whole assesmen on skem and kuku. Skem is just being dumb, the word probably slip out as a joke. No matter he will still pay for it but banning him from entering china is just too much.
Kuku , on the other hand, he doesnt show remorse. In one of the match in Kuala Lumpur major, theres a random pause by chinese observant. Afterward, near the end of the match when TNC forced the chinese team to concede, Kuku paused the game. I mayble look too much into it but thats pretty passive aggressiveness is showing he doesnt like chinese as a whole. I am not surprised Chinese community banded together in hatred when they found out Kuku lied.
isn't that armel?
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At this point, its not about integrity or whatever the chinese called it. Its bullying because they can and chinese wont be satisfied until they ruined both of these players.
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How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident?
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On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident?
In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular.
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On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular.
Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. It's just like my pubs. the biggest flamers can't take flame against themselves at all. Not wanting to be rude, but that's the reason why I don't care about anything this Raphael dude has to say at all. This is going on for way to long already, and I am sick of it. The skem and kuku bans are the icing on the cake...
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On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it.
Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general.
the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up
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I dont know if this is already known but TNC posted a statement today including the punishment from their side:
http://dota2.tncproteam.com/2018/11/27/official-statement-disciplinary-action-by-tnc/?fbclid=IwAR2DvKT5nmSl7GQMlGpzkl9_9mTizUqZCr03ua4zX-7JozjC3xBDAV0rE9M
– We will be fining Carlo “Kuku” Palad 50% of his winnings from the Kuala Lumpur Major, and either of the following: If the team directly qualifies to the Major, 50% of his winnings from the Chongqing Major. If the team qualifies for the Minor, 50% of his winnings from the Bucharest Minor. If the team qualifies for the Major through winning the Minor, 50% of his winnings from either the Minor or the Major (whichever is bigger). If the team does not qualify for the Chongqing Major, Kuku will stream/cover the LAN Finals of the said Major, and all earnings from the stream will be donated to IMADR. -The amount will be donated to https://imadr.org – The International Movement Against All Forms of Discrimination and Racism (IMADR) – 50% of Paulo Sy’s one month’s salary shall be donated to IMADR as well.
TNC won 60K at KL Major, and will make a minimum of 10K at Chongqing. Thats not a insignificant amount of money.
Also there is what seems to be an apoplgy and an ask for a second chance on his twitter (its mostly in filipino i am just guessing).
So is this enough punishment?
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I don’t think any of that will matter to China. Kuku’s fate in this really is dependent upon whatever action Valve takes.
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Thanks for your detailed post and your responses, very interesting to read.
Now that TNC qualified in the 2nd slot it seems that we're on the warpath leading to inevitable conflict. If Valve were going to dish out punishment for him it's too late now, it would completely shatter the competitive integrity Valve is trying to build.
You proposed different punishments for kuku/skem which I found odd because realistically there's not much of a difference in their specific player actions except from the PR side of things. If anything Skem should receive a greater punishment because his remark was done during a competitive match. Those proposed punishments seemed way too harsh for Kuku, and at most I would reduce it to skem's level (fine + 3-game ban) in your situation. Then again, I am in the camp that they have been reprimanded enough so we'll agree to disagree there.
This sort of cover-up lie which you claim has forever tarnished Kuku's/TNC's reputation, from what I'm reading, can essentially never be solved except be washed away with time. In my opinion, any direct intervention from Valve or potential government action is a bandaid measure, unless Kuku personally does something to redeem himself, which apparently he can't do anymore because anything he does would not be perceived as sincere. So he is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied.
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On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up
making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again.
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it is up to the group that's being discriminated to say whether it is offensive or not.... what you feel is offensive or not does not always the same in a different culture..
the word "nigger" has a very mild equivalent Chinese term - "black ghost". its a folk slang to describe most other ethics, "white ghost", "Japanese ghost"... these terms are derived from 19th-century foreign evasion.. ghost is used to describe foreigners as a slang and it is still being commonly used today (obviously not in official environment).. and for the obvious reason for China not involved in all the black Amercian history, the translation of "nigger" does not carry any particular offensive meaning.
Without knowing American history, a local Chinese may call a black person "black ghost (nigger)" without carrying racist intent.. but is it ok? Of course not, because it is up to the group being offended to say.
try not to have a double standard here .. if the group felt being offended, it is not ok.
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"they are racist therefore it's fine for us to be racist" is not and will never be an acceptable argument. Two wrongs do not make a right.
We are not the police of random dota players, wherever they may come from, though we may implore them to be better. In this circumstance though, it is fair for us to discuss judgement of community figures who, by the weight of their place in the dota ecosystem, have a responsibility to be better. If and when a community figure uses racial slurs in a public setting, regardless of that player's origin it is important for the community to condemn that rather than justify it.
Context is of course critical in determining consequences and I think that the vast majority of non-chinese dota players consider the matter dealt with given the context of the offences. Maybe some people think stricter punishment could have been levied, but few outside of china consider the punishment outrageously soft.
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i mean, i've seen people making fun of the indian accent, or some other muslim countries. indonesians being called indogs. filipinos being called pignoys. thais being trans etc
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On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again.
thats not the point. sn0_mans post should answer this one just fine...
its nice that you pick out the fun in quotation marks instead of focusing on it being an offensive remark.
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Thank you for the post. It's really hard to understand the Chinese mind and I am pretty sure that I actually have not. But it helped a lot to get a small insight and idea of the problem.
Maybe that's the point. People are so different that we can't truly understand. We should learn to respect that and rather be respectful and careful when communicating. You never know what might hurt the players that enjoy the same game you do.
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On November 28 2018 19:03 ischgi wrote:
Thank you for the post. It's really hard to understand the Chinese mind and I am pretty sure that I actually have not. But it helped a lot to get a small insight and idea of the problem.
Maybe that's the point. People are so different that we can't truly understand. We should learn to respect that and rather be respectful and careful when communicating. You never know what might hurt the players that enjoy the same game you do.
yes.. i somewhat understand it (that mind),
but maybe,
it seems to be influenced by many (rushing people around there), that needs to finish fast
i differ..
around here its..
on some light/general occassions, i wanna finish last, i just generally do, and am encouraged to, its nice
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On November 28 2018 01:49 overt wrote:
I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied.
This is pretty much how I expect things to boil out as well
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tbh, kuku (looked like) he was signaling his displease (somewhat) <<this
-
in the first few weeks, i get it, because it was a pub, and because he went the effort to coax the person to change the name, and because the culture is like so
still, he chose the ass path (i would too, maybe, i dont know, depends on my mood/stress levels/whatever/if my boss/others is inspiring me to be nice)
.
this is just two very different expectations clashing,
both sides had standards, (or rather, the standard to lack a standard)
broken
and it got amplified, by annonimity in the internet.
still, tbh, kuku could have been much more professional
(was gonna use the word "sincere", but professionality is enough, better if it was both)
--
edit: actually i dont know kuku chose what path,
maybe i just assumed
(on the cn side, that expectation, is normal(?), afterall it started as an insult on a nationwide broadcast)
my personal opinion? maybe its not about the ACT OF "WORDS" / policing the words.
maybe its just <<THAT>> (kuku')
but understandably,
on CN side, what to do? context started as skem's nationwide thing, and the topics all there, developed the way it did,
it was peddled to the world as a public insult, kuku's (assumed) signals is still there
if CN was just defending its position AS A BUSINESS, not as a nation, it would still require Kuku to make the first, sincere (professional) move,
public would be better, but A PERSONAL EMAIL, mightve helped, honestly
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raphael yu, people who disagree with you, they more or less don't feel the racism tied with those words.
we're at a point whereby social media lends opportunities to change how players are held accountable for some of the things they say or do.
we can hold our own opinions rather than parsing what the news sector writes on a topic.
-----
where i live and anywhere i can imagine, the words "ching chong" are used in schoolyard bullying or in comedy.
it's like this because the meaning of the phrase has changed.
people like me who were born here but have deep roots in non-western ethnicity grew up generally unoffended by its usage. my biggest concern is mob mentality with these sort of things and how people will be ignorant and parrot whatever it is they think is funny. if it happens enough, it eventually changes the meaning of the words once again and becomes something truly discriminatory for just about no reason at all.
the ideas themselves of discrimination, bigotry, or bullying are the obnoxious points and why people will fight for punishment of these players.
it's direct, blatant, and easy to make an example out of... but it practically affects single digit % of people from, again, anywhere i can imagine.
and that's just it. we think about the level of punishment to a practical end.
when the parts of the chinese community first acted extremely offended, it was an understandable overreaction.
so many people out there in the world are like this and even on an individual basis we are like this.
nobody--absolutely nobody--should be actively looking down on and stifling another person based on what you cannot change about yourself from birth.
skem and kuku? they were not doing something like that.
instead, they were doing tasteless comedy that wouldn't be funny to anyone but themselves.
does taking money out from their winnings stop them from another public act?
did confronting them about it do the job?
did angry tweets also deter the act from happening again?
yes.
and it also should have been made crystal clear that nobody should condone behaviour like that.
instead, it escalated because of the difference in concept and opinion,
and because bits and pieces of the chinese dota community also cannot find it within themselves to understand that it is not actually intended racism.
we're past the original usage of the word from the early 1900's.
we have millennial and gen Z adults who were born in a diverse environment.
you can hate the players because they were dumb, and they might even make up for it eventually.
you absolutely cannot hate a community or the people running it because they have a different view on what punishment looks like.
best to remember the incident but wash the salt out of your mouth.
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On November 28 2018 23:25 Emnjay808 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 01:49 overt wrote:
I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied. This is pretty much how I expect things to boil out as well
I don't see what else they can do. Parts of the chinese community fucked up big time by being the worst offenders in this story.
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On November 29 2018 00:35 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 23:25 Emnjay808 wrote:On November 28 2018 01:49 overt wrote:
I feel like this will just end with Valve saying that DPC tournaments can’t ban players, citing their earlier statement on “teams should enact punishment,” and then Kuku’s visa mysteriously gets denied. This is pretty much how I expect things to boil out as well I don't see what else they can do. Parts of the chinese community fucked up big time by being the worst offenders in this story.
sir,
correct me if im wrong
but
it all started (Skem's case) on a nationwide broadcast, it got egged there, justifiable.
--
lemme put an equivalent on how it started, if it was Germany,
its okay, if someone said some words, in a public nationwide, official broadcast (an asian, lets take for example)
IF IT WAS FUNNY.
what if it wasnt? wouldnt it have egged the way it did?
after the egg.
after the public topic, would there be any choice but to defend the position, had it developed the way with (kuku's assumed signals) (my previous long post)
the assumed signals here, is actually the problem, an undefined thing, but i think both sides can sense it
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(2/2)
edit: i wrote something too long.
its kinda up to the involved parties to realize what they have "locked" the other parties from doing though
i think, maybe its not about being mad or not already at this point, in the cn forums
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On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again.
hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny
do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein?
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On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike?
sir hunter_x, i dont think its about policing words,
or being insulted by words,
now this is just my assumption,
but kuku being openly AFK, (probably thought he is just defending his mates, he is just defending <the lack of standards>)
he probably didn realize, by doing this, and (probably signaling his displease) he also let this issue grew, and let the spotlight be on china
now, i know, its somewhat hard/impossible for me too, to care what the chinese are writing in their chinese forums.
but remember the issue started in a nationwide broadcast, and it got a topic there (or so i read, by OP's explanation)
the topic is still there.
its context is still, nationwide (because it started from Skem's)
it is unresolved (by kuku afk-ing)
and this led to them to still being blamed. (for something leaked in matt's twitter)
now, its as if ur insulted, and the person who insult you, is playing defender of justice
he locked, alot of things that the chinese side could do, by being AFK.
(now if he is seemingly displeased, that would be... even more locking)
because the issue seemed it already outgrew whether any side was mad or not at this point
i dont see alot of emotions tbh, all of this is probably unintentional by kuku's side
(plus if he just apologized, he could probably be branded spineless by his mates, by people who dont understand the issue up to this point)
and it would take massive adult(ness) from any of those two side, to realize
--
edit:
and to the issue of "initial insult"
this started from skem,
so imagine if an asian were to say something in a public nationwide broadcast in germany for example
i guess itd be ok if its funny
what if its not funny..
maybe (like skem) a push to address this (not yet a ban) (and a topic in the forums)
especially considering if there is currently any sensitivity due to (other) unrelated wordly issues?
that was all its supposed to be i think, initially at least
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On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein?
Nah, the en vouge thing to do is to just call someone else a Jew as an insult.
It's pathetic
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@Raphael_YU Thanks for sharing your side of the story. It's good to know that it isn't just blowing up because of "chngchng" but more so because of lost trust. It's also good to know that "chngchng" actually has a racist meaning for Chinese.
I doubt a good consent can be reached since both sides seem to be stuck in their "wrong makes wrong right" mentality, but it's still appreciated that you took the time.
Have to say that as a German with an anti-authoritarian, anti-nationalist upbringing some views seem very foreign to me, but that doesn't really come as a surprise (China and Germany have some very different policies concerning upbringing, political system and self-representation afaik). And I can certainly understand the outrage because somebody tried to trick you.
@550
I am 99% sure that any Chinese living outside of Germany saying something blatantly racist like "I'm in Nazi-Land!" on cable TV would have been disliked by the 10-15% nationalists and ignored because apparently uneducated by the rest. It would be forgotten 1-2 weeks later. We don't expect people far away to know anything about us and most of the time we are right 
Germany is a really bad example, because our political center and our political left both are pretty tolerant towards foreigners and share a strong dislike for patriotism and even more so for nationalism.
We are kinda compensating for the Nazi errors. Our far right party is on the upwind due to the counter-movement, but even they have to be very careful what they say.
On November 29 2018 02:41 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? Nah, the en vouge thing to do is to just call someone else a Jew as an insult. It's pathetic
The fuck? Are you living in Saxony or sth? Only time I've ever heard that was when my lil bro got outplayed badly and said it to his enemy (a good friend of his) and it was half a compliment and 100% jokingly.
And no, we don't call Jews names, at least 90-95% of us don't.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein?
You see, your comparison would make sense if CC was associated with opium trade. It is not. Or Sino-Japanese war of 30s-40s. It still is not. Not going to say that TL fanfriend's opinion is valid, but CC is truly too weak of an insult, because it neither has brutal history associated with it nor is it insulting on it's own. Heck, the only reason it is an insult is because it sounds funny.
In the end it works as lesson in Chinese mindset, given we have already established the main fault being kuku's own screw-up in resolving this mess.
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On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein?
No it's not the equivalent at all, stop lying please, it only makes things worse.
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On November 29 2018 02:41 Archeon wrote:@550 I am 99% sure that any Chinese living outside of Germany saying something blatantly racist like "I'm in Nazi-Land!" on cable TV would have been disliked by the 10-15% nationalists and ignored because apparently uneducated by the rest. It would be forgotten 1-2 weeks later. We don't expect people far away to know anything about us and most of the time we are right Germany is a really bad example, because our political center and our political left both are pretty tolerant towards foreigners and share a strong dislike for patriotism and even more so for nationalism. We are kinda compensating for the Nazi errors. Our far right party is on the upwind due to the counter-movement, but even they have to be very careful what they say.
yes sir, that is probably whats gonna happen,
if the country is developed enough, things r generally probably more positive, if there are certain standards to the people,
but, im not saying one standard is bad or anything
but because, you know, in ALOT OF COUNTRIES (not just asia) if there are 10 people, in your public sphere,
and 6 of them, is on a high stress environment/demands, that 4, could seem like 1, or 0
by means of compounding culture
atleast thats what i think, seems to happen alot in non-western countries
--
but i still think, people will still be dealt in the proper manner to his offense, in every country
depending on how triggering it is
now in this context, nothing i can think of, at all, currently, could provoke this, its true.
i dont live there afterall, and hopefully more positives only
also,
i think skem's address was all it was supposed to be at the beginning..
edit: i actually can think of something bad,
shits..
i mean, i was trying to say "UNFUNNY" as the keyword, so..
maybe.. maybe if a guy is to put forward a slander that involves two other races?
like he's trying to insinuate things on a public broadcast?
i know that is ALOT more than what is described here, but.. its honestly just about being unfunny
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^I get your point 
And it's not like ppl haven't gotten Germans angry, it just usually needs more than one incident or really bad handling. Also there have been discussions about free speech vs comedy, but mostly when German comedians said something negative about foreigners that people found unacceptable.
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On November 29 2018 02:50 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? You see, your comparison would make sense if CC was associated with opium trade. It is not. Or Sino-Japanese war of 30s-40s. It still is not. Not going to say that TL fanfriend's opinion is valid, but CC is truly too weak of an insult, because it neither has brutal history associated with it nor is it insulting on it's own. Heck, the only reason it is an insult is because it sounds funny. In the end it works as lesson in Chinese mindset, given we have already established the main fault being kuku's own screw-up in resolving this mess.
it is the same... the only reason i say such things because I know holocause history but you dont know Chinese history in North America. i am quoting my response from anther post in liquiddota...
------------------
Your response was partially contributed to this problem.... Ching Chong and Chink are equivalent to nigger...
Slaves were ported to US and Canada during late Qing (Ching dynasty) where men have pony tales on their head.. They could not speak English, being treated like slave and built majority of railways in Canada and USA... Canada use to charge head tax against Chinese ethnic only...
The word Chink and Ching chong are originated to discriminate the Qing Slaves, the first mass generated migrated to North America looking for survival...
Asian do not make as big noise as black... Does not knowing the origin and meaning of this word is ignorant, not excuses... It is valve's responsibility to stop this whole bullshit going out of control.
"Ching chong, Chinaman,
Sitting on a wall.
Along came a white man,
and chopped his head off."
![[image loading]](https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2010/08/Capture5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.asian-nation.org/anti-chinese-10.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IWZjSs_9h3o/UgBH4aEQg4I/AAAAAAAAHzc/5U9p7QuYLSA/s400/imageMain_16_802.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/The-Great-Fear-of-the-Period.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://factsanddetails.com/media/2/20080304-anti_CHinese.gif)
![[image loading]](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiExYz24vfeAhXNMd8KHQFbD7EQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fprojects.leadr.msu.edu%2Fprogressiveeraimmigration%2Fitems%2Fshow%2F16&psig=AOvVaw0c9dA_mu0RT_MmqWrg3WHZ&ust=1543518040426948)
Chinese exclusion Act in 1882 in US
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chinese-exclusion-act/
the reason is Asian history in the western has been under-represented, does not mean it does not happen. i can start a separate thread if necessary.
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On November 29 2018 03:40 Archeon wrote:I get your point And it's not like ppl haven't gotten Germans angry, it just usually needs more than one incident or really bad handling. Also there have been discussions about free speech vs comedy, but mostly when German comedians said something negative about foreigners that people found unacceptable.
tbh if it was me, itd be looaads better if i have the freedom to be rude to as many people as possible
(to be frenly)
but like comedians, thats probably me tryin too hard
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On November 29 2018 02:41 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? Nah, the en vouge thing to do is to just call someone else a Jew as an insult. It's pathetic
exactly my point. everyone knows holocaust, but few knows Asian history in north america.
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Thanks for giving some more historical background HolyPepsi. I think the lack of communication between the scenes has amplified this problem tenfold up to the point where it's loss/loss for everyone involved.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Good, the background given does make it much more sound but i have to make a very important counterpoint: you do not tax slaves, and you do not prevent immigration of slaves, because former is impossible and latter is stupid. So your claims that they were treated like slaves yet proceeding to explain that there was literally an act that prevented their immigration (2 acts in fact) and specific tax against them in another country, are contradictory. Were they treated like a low quality hard labor? Of course, you personally state their illiteracy, what are you going to make illiterate people do except for hard work?
As for presence of discrimination against Chinese (including the kindergarten rhyme), i have never denied it. Just comparing it to holocaust and very rich black history... downplays both.
P. S. Note that drama is about CC, not about C, C does sound like far more loaded an insult for reasons you have explained above.
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The underyling argument is simple: If you feel insulted by an act or a word, does that automatically make said act/word an insult?
From a neutral standpoint, I am inclined to say no. There are too many different people in this world to know how and to what degree you will insult them by doing something. Judging someone purely by the way their action was perceived by another party would result in chaos and mayhem.
So unless it can be proven that skem and kuku were aware of the effect their actions would have and specifically intended to provoke said effect, I see no alternative to giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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On November 30 2018 01:08 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The underyling argument is simple: If you feel insulted by an act or a word, does that automatically make said act/word an insult?
From a neutral standpoint, I am inclined to say no. There are too many different people in this world to know how and to what degree you will insult them by doing something. Judging someone purely by the way their action was perceived by another party would result in chaos and mayhem.
So unless it can be proven that skem and kuku were aware of the effect their actions would have and specifically intended to provoke said effect, I see no alternative to giving them the benefit of the doubt.
i doubt they were aware that the word is actually a racist slur, just like the majority of us
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none of it is good, but you have got it a bit twisted if you believe the situation with the canadian railroad, head taxes, etc.
are on the same level as the american slave trade and holocaust.
they're all atrocities and more, don't get me wrong, but they're barely comparable.
again, the meaning of the words have changed over time--much more that "ching chong" is not as derogatory as it was more than 50 years ago.
china is a super power, and chinese people in society are some of the people that contribute the most.
it's a reputation that is so well known that it's an afterthought.
yeah i hear it in the most offensive manner and eye-roll at most. i don't feel xenophobia for christ's sake.
i just feel autism, ignorance, or low social IQ. that's it, lol.
so when a gamer who is meant to be a sort of role model or idol decides to say dumb shit, it hurts everyone a bit the same.
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As I began to read your sentiment, I wished that you could be that someone who could understand the plea from SEA especially from Ph. To give you few background of Kuku's mentality, he is a dumb, a joker and a funny guy. You could see him do the Korea's gwiyomi dance, tease and jukes on his teamates and friends and a casual friendly bully to the people close to him. A gamer and a father at a young age. Pinoys usually see racial remarks in pubs and it became a norm to us, in SEA as whole since SEA has been on a long time racial war and we don't really care about that. It's somehow make the region fun. Now on Kuku, he is just a typical SEA gamer with that attitude. We do not even know that he made a mistake until the Chinese cries foul on that. We know Kuku did not mean it. That's just him trying to be funny. Given, Kuku made that mistake, is it really needed to end his career? Send deaththreats? to mock his innocent daughter(which I believe could be so painful since I am also a father of an innocent one) and can't even protect her? Just because of that word? Kuku apologized and is penalized, is it not that enough? Could we bring back the virtue thought to us when we were a child by our parents that when you hurt someone you must say sorry and apologize and that we must forgive the ones who seek for it?
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On November 30 2018 16:37 Lelou wrote:
As I began to read your sentiment, I wished that you could be that someone who could understand the plea from SEA especially from Ph. To give you few background of Kuku's mentality, he is a dumb, a joker and a funny guy. You could see him do the Korea's gwiyomi dance, tease and jukes on his teamates and friends and a casual friendly bully to the people close to him. A gamer and a father at a young age. Pinoys usually see racial remarks in pubs and it became a norm to us, in SEA as whole since SEA has been on a long time racial war and we don't really care about that. It's somehow make the region fun. Now on Kuku, he is just a typical SEA gamer with that attitude. We do not even know that he made a mistake until the Chinese cries foul on that. We know Kuku did not mean it. That's just him trying to be funny. Given, Kuku made that mistake, is it really needed to end his career? Send deaththreats? to mock his innocent daughter(which I believe could be so painful since I am also a father of an innocent one) and can't even protect her? Just because of that word? Kuku apologized and is penalized, is it not that enough? Could we bring back the virtue thought to us when we were a child by our parents that when you hurt someone you must say sorry and apologize and that we must forgive the ones who seek for it?
You seem to forgot the lie Kuku attempted to cover up his racial remarks.
For the chinese, the racial remarks he threw is miniscule compared to that failed cover up, you see. He shouldn't have done that. If it wasn't for that, the ball wouldn't be unstoppable like it is now.
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On November 30 2018 16:50 Tio- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2018 16:37 Lelou wrote:
As I began to read your sentiment, I wished that you could be that someone who could understand the plea from SEA especially from Ph. To give you few background of Kuku's mentality, he is a dumb, a joker and a funny guy. You could see him do the Korea's gwiyomi dance, tease and jukes on his teamates and friends and a casual friendly bully to the people close to him. A gamer and a father at a young age. Pinoys usually see racial remarks in pubs and it became a norm to us, in SEA as whole since SEA has been on a long time racial war and we don't really care about that. It's somehow make the region fun. Now on Kuku, he is just a typical SEA gamer with that attitude. We do not even know that he made a mistake until the Chinese cries foul on that. We know Kuku did not mean it. That's just him trying to be funny. Given, Kuku made that mistake, is it really needed to end his career? Send deaththreats? to mock his innocent daughter(which I believe could be so painful since I am also a father of an innocent one) and can't even protect her? Just because of that word? Kuku apologized and is penalized, is it not that enough? Could we bring back the virtue thought to us when we were a child by our parents that when you hurt someone you must say sorry and apologize and that we must forgive the ones who seek for it? You seem to forgot the lie Kuku attempted to cover up his racial remarks. For the chinese, the racial remarks he threw is miniscule compared to that failed cover up, you see. He shouldn't have done that. If it wasn't for that, the ball wouldn't be unstoppable like it is now.
could it be that its not one person holding the decision?
is the situation like, theres a FORUM TOPIC, with a bad sentiment, that went to the government, and that government is difficult to reach / talk to / comprised of many people
then in such case, it can be difficult for a single person to (seemingly) take the risk of suggesting the forgive decision.. (normally the suggestion must come from kuku's side first)
(example is if a company decides to sue a person, then its gonna be pretty weird if theres a guy within the company, that suddenly suggests something that goes again what was "met" and "decided")
i think this maybe(?) what kuku/the international crowd misunderstands (not sure)
maybe they put china in one box instead of ( groups of groups of unrelated people like normally)
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On November 30 2018 01:08 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The underyling argument is simple: If you feel insulted by an act or a word, does that automatically make said act/word an insult?
From a neutral standpoint, I am inclined to say no. There are too many different people in this world to know how and to what degree you will insult them by doing something. Judging someone purely by the way their action was perceived by another party would result in chaos and mayhem.
So unless it can be proven that skem and kuku were aware of the effect their actions would have and specifically intended to provoke said effect, I see no alternative to giving them the benefit of the doubt.
I'm having a real hard time believing that they meant anything other than what those words are meant to mean.
Unless you live in some strange world where Ching chong have some sort of positive connotation, i think you are just arguing on semantics.
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Tio-
Fyi, it was not Kuku who made that cover up. That was Paulo Sy, their manager. Kuku is not a good English speaker, you can sense that it was not him.
Right after they qualified for Chongqing Major, Kuku posted on his personal facebook account about the issue. There he apologized with sincerety using our dialect and you can say that it is really him. That was also the time Paulo Sy revealed that he was the one who made the cover up.
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On November 30 2018 16:50 Tio- wrote:
You seem to forgot the lie Kuku attempted to cover up his racial remarks.
For the chinese, the racial remarks he threw is miniscule compared to that failed cover up, you see. He shouldn't have done that. If it wasn't for that, the ball wouldn't be unstoppable like it is now.
there is no forgiving then?
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On November 30 2018 22:57 nuketurnal2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2018 16:50 Tio- wrote:
You seem to forgot the lie Kuku attempted to cover up his racial remarks.
For the chinese, the racial remarks he threw is miniscule compared to that failed cover up, you see. He shouldn't have done that. If it wasn't for that, the ball wouldn't be unstoppable like it is now. no forgiving then?
just imo,
maybe its not a "person" doing the decision, maybe the condition is like a "forum topic" -> "spontaneous city meet"
multiple parties that are loosely connected , after meetings long gone, out of the blue?
who would who could.. what traction.. who's even related
unless its the offender himself
(kuku probably didnt realize his lack of initiative, locks the other party from doing anything, not because they dont want to, but its not any "1/2/3 person")
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On November 30 2018 19:38 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2018 01:08 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The underyling argument is simple: If you feel insulted by an act or a word, does that automatically make said act/word an insult?
From a neutral standpoint, I am inclined to say no. There are too many different people in this world to know how and to what degree you will insult them by doing something. Judging someone purely by the way their action was perceived by another party would result in chaos and mayhem.
So unless it can be proven that skem and kuku were aware of the effect their actions would have and specifically intended to provoke said effect, I see no alternative to giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm having a real hard time believing that they meant anything other than what those words are meant to mean. Unless you live in some strange world where Ching chong have some sort of positive connotation, i think you are just arguing on semantics.
Intent makes a huge difference here in my opinion. I see no reason to believe those remarks weren't meant jokingly, not to insult or harm. Bad joke? For sure, but not worth a ban. Words are not just negative or positive, they have different meanings to different people. I think It's rather pretentious to claim to know what a word is "supposed to mean".
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(kuku)
not about right/wrong
its that the punishment came from a topic of unrelated people (pleb-to-pleb x100)
so (who knows who) to speak on who's behalf afterwards (to forgive/ignore)
its logical to do it the mc/tl way
needs to be personal
to gain traction/attention
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On November 29 2018 04:31 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2018 02:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? You see, your comparison would make sense if CC was associated with opium trade. It is not. Or Sino-Japanese war of 30s-40s. It still is not. Not going to say that TL fanfriend's opinion is valid, but CC is truly too weak of an insult, because it neither has brutal history associated with it nor is it insulting on it's own. Heck, the only reason it is an insult is because it sounds funny. In the end it works as lesson in Chinese mindset, given we have already established the main fault being kuku's own screw-up in resolving this mess. it is the same... the only reason i say such things because I know holocause history but you dont know Chinese history in North America. i am quoting my response from anther post in liquiddota... ------------------ Your response was partially contributed to this problem.... Ching Chong and Chink are equivalent to nigger... Slaves were ported to US and Canada during late Qing (Ching dynasty) where men have pony tales on their head.. They could not speak English, being treated like slave and built majority of railways in Canada and USA... Canada use to charge head tax against Chinese ethnic only... The word Chink and Ching chong are originated to discriminate the Qing Slaves, the first mass generated migrated to North America looking for survival... Asian do not make as big noise as black... Does not knowing the origin and meaning of this word is ignorant, not excuses... It is valve's responsibility to stop this whole bullshit going out of control. "Ching chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped his head off." Chinese exclusion Act in 1882 in US https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chinese-exclusion-act/the reason is Asian history in the western has been under-represented, does not mean it does not happen. i can start a separate thread if necessary. -------------------
I didn't read the whole thing fully, but as a Chinese I can confirm that ching Chong itself has no meaning in Asia, it is a weak slur. The reason why it is offensive lies behind the fact that we know historically it has been used by westerners to degrade Chinese in the west, like in examples you put. Thus we equate that to being a disrespectful term. So maybe Chinese living in the west will be impacted, but Chinese in Asia don't really care about the term.
You call/mock a black African a monkey like some do in Europe, and they're upset because you're associating them as an animal or a beast, or that you're mocking their appearance. You make a ching chong joke to a Chinese in Asia, we won't get upset over the word itself. We get upset because you decided to insult and disrespect us. And mainland Chinese are very proud people these days and think their time of being belittled is over.
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i read some on reddit
regarding (kuku) / (grant)
what does he expect? a random dude in the other community, to come out and initiate a discussion (in his behalf) to overturn without context / a personal address / request? so strange
(in their behalf?)
isit just me, or is this alittle weird too?
the (on their behalf), is the weirdest part, tbh
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As the OP wrote, it seems there is no hard ban. But the organizers and TNC are essentially being threatened by what might happen if Kuku comes and plays normally. I don't know if they are empty threats or if they would actually cancel the event or something.
It seems pretty awkward that noone is taking responsibility for deciding what to do. The municipal government seemingly isn't clearly saying what they will do but instead are throwing vague threats. The organizers are saying that they can't guarantee Kuku's safety and the entire event might be cancelled if he comes, but at the same time they aren't blocking him from coming and seeing what happens. And Valve is just sitting quietly saying nothing.
Seems possible that the event will go on normally and this will just turn out to be empty posturing. But I wouldn't be that comfortable in Kuku's position without a better idea of how serious the municipal government officials are being.
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On December 02 2018 15:06 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2018 04:31 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 29 2018 02:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? You see, your comparison would make sense if CC was associated with opium trade. It is not. Or Sino-Japanese war of 30s-40s. It still is not. Not going to say that TL fanfriend's opinion is valid, but CC is truly too weak of an insult, because it neither has brutal history associated with it nor is it insulting on it's own. Heck, the only reason it is an insult is because it sounds funny. In the end it works as lesson in Chinese mindset, given we have already established the main fault being kuku's own screw-up in resolving this mess. it is the same... the only reason i say such things because I know holocause history but you dont know Chinese history in North America. i am quoting my response from anther post in liquiddota... ------------------ Your response was partially contributed to this problem.... Ching Chong and Chink are equivalent to nigger... Slaves were ported to US and Canada during late Qing (Ching dynasty) where men have pony tales on their head.. They could not speak English, being treated like slave and built majority of railways in Canada and USA... Canada use to charge head tax against Chinese ethnic only... The word Chink and Ching chong are originated to discriminate the Qing Slaves, the first mass generated migrated to North America looking for survival... Asian do not make as big noise as black... Does not knowing the origin and meaning of this word is ignorant, not excuses... It is valve's responsibility to stop this whole bullshit going out of control. "Ching chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped his head off." Chinese exclusion Act in 1882 in US https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chinese-exclusion-act/the reason is Asian history in the western has been under-represented, does not mean it does not happen. i can start a separate thread if necessary. ------------------- I didn't read the whole thing fully, but as a Chinese I can confirm that ching Chong itself has no meaning in Asia, it is a weak slur. The reason why it is offensive lies behind the fact that we know historically it has been used by westerners to degrade Chinese in the west, like in examples you put. Thus we equate that to being a disrespectful term. So maybe Chinese living in the west will be impacted, but Chinese in Asia don't really care about the term. You call/mock a black African a monkey like some do in Europe, and they're upset because you're associating them as an animal or a beast, or that you're mocking their appearance. You make a ching chong joke to a Chinese in Asia, we won't get upset over the word itself. We get upset because you decided to insult and disrespect us. And mainland Chinese are very proud people these days and think their time of being belittled is over.
There is an important difference between who says the CC insult though. It may have started as a Chinese-specific insult, but it morphed into a catch-all insult against Asians in western countries. If a white or black person says CC to an Asian, then it is a horrible insult on the same level as the N word, and probably Filipinos themselves are sometimes the recipient of the word in a racist way.
However if I see an Asian say CC to another Asian it's not going to look so serious, and remember Filipinos are grouped into the Asian category in the west.
I'm not at all justifying them saying it publicly as that's just dumb, but there is a big difference between a non-Asian and an Asian using the same slur.
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they probably feel awkward involving the big government over this
(Seems email correspondence thru valve can fix)
Grant n the reddit posters being so weird though..
Somehow i feel its supposed to be much easier, prolly not with people intervening left n right
(I mean, have kuku tried posting himself in the other forums "lol guys sorry my bad, can w still be friends, "
After his managers botched attempt?
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On November 30 2018 22:25 Lelou wrote:
Tio-
Fyi, it was not Kuku who made that cover up. That was Paulo Sy, their manager. Kuku is not a good English speaker, you can sense that it was not him.
Right after they qualified for Chongqing Major, Kuku posted on his personal facebook account about the issue. There he apologized with sincerety using our dialect and you can say that it is really him. That was also the time Paulo Sy revealed that he was the one who made the cover up.
Really? I am not really following these issue, so I don't know this. Thanks for correcting me.
Sadly, it still doesn't change that it was that unfortunate moment that leads to chinese community lost their trust. If only..
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jesus fucking christ grow up everyone
he said ching chong in a pub (fucking stupid, but kids/trolls be kids, it's hormonal and cultural inexperience) then said it was a players name so you wouldnt get so butthurt about it
after reading this shit i really don't blame him/his manager for the second part holy fuck
goddamn morons, go outside for a change, breath in the air, and realise we as an international community won't get anywhere in life if something so distant and negligible affects us so much
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On December 02 2018 18:48 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2018 15:06 DucK- wrote:On November 29 2018 04:31 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 29 2018 02:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? You see, your comparison would make sense if CC was associated with opium trade. It is not. Or Sino-Japanese war of 30s-40s. It still is not. Not going to say that TL fanfriend's opinion is valid, but CC is truly too weak of an insult, because it neither has brutal history associated with it nor is it insulting on it's own. Heck, the only reason it is an insult is because it sounds funny. In the end it works as lesson in Chinese mindset, given we have already established the main fault being kuku's own screw-up in resolving this mess. it is the same... the only reason i say such things because I know holocause history but you dont know Chinese history in North America. i am quoting my response from anther post in liquiddota... ------------------ Your response was partially contributed to this problem.... Ching Chong and Chink are equivalent to nigger... Slaves were ported to US and Canada during late Qing (Ching dynasty) where men have pony tales on their head.. They could not speak English, being treated like slave and built majority of railways in Canada and USA... Canada use to charge head tax against Chinese ethnic only... The word Chink and Ching chong are originated to discriminate the Qing Slaves, the first mass generated migrated to North America looking for survival... Asian do not make as big noise as black... Does not knowing the origin and meaning of this word is ignorant, not excuses... It is valve's responsibility to stop this whole bullshit going out of control. "Ching chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped his head off." Chinese exclusion Act in 1882 in US https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chinese-exclusion-act/the reason is Asian history in the western has been under-represented, does not mean it does not happen. i can start a separate thread if necessary. ------------------- I didn't read the whole thing fully, but as a Chinese I can confirm that ching Chong itself has no meaning in Asia, it is a weak slur. The reason why it is offensive lies behind the fact that we know historically it has been used by westerners to degrade Chinese in the west, like in examples you put. Thus we equate that to being a disrespectful term. So maybe Chinese living in the west will be impacted, but Chinese in Asia don't really care about the term. You call/mock a black African a monkey like some do in Europe, and they're upset because you're associating them as an animal or a beast, or that you're mocking their appearance. You make a ching chong joke to a Chinese in Asia, we won't get upset over the word itself. We get upset because you decided to insult and disrespect us. And mainland Chinese are very proud people these days and think their time of being belittled is over. There is an important difference between who says the CC insult though. It may have started as a Chinese-specific insult, but it morphed into a catch-all insult against Asians in western countries. If a white or black person says CC to an Asian, then it is a horrible insult on the same level as the N word, and probably Filipinos themselves are sometimes the recipient of the word in a racist way. However if I see an Asian say CC to another Asian it's not going to look so serious, and remember Filipinos are grouped into the Asian category in the west. I'm not at all justifying them saying it publicly as that's just dumb, but there is a big difference between a non-Asian and an Asian using the same slur.
Umm for this case its more of who you're saying ching chong too. To chinese in the west, they would feel insulted. To Chinese in Asia, we're not affected by the word at all. Notice how I don't even abbreviate ching Chong because the term is not taboo here. The mainland Chinese are just pissed at the disrespect shown to them (that a westerner/pinoy had the audacity to mock them), and they're recently a rather prideful bunch.
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Fyi, it was not Kuku who made that cover up. That was Paulo Sy, their manager. Kuku is not a good English speaker, you can sense that it was not him.
Right after they qualified for Chongqing Major, Kuku posted on his personal facebook account about the issue. There he apologized with sincerety using our dialect and you can say that it is really him. That was also the time Paulo Sy revealed that he was the one who made the cover up.www.liquiddota.com
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On December 02 2018 15:06 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2018 04:31 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 29 2018 02:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? You see, your comparison would make sense if CC was associated with opium trade. It is not. Or Sino-Japanese war of 30s-40s. It still is not. Not going to say that TL fanfriend's opinion is valid, but CC is truly too weak of an insult, because it neither has brutal history associated with it nor is it insulting on it's own. Heck, the only reason it is an insult is because it sounds funny. In the end it works as lesson in Chinese mindset, given we have already established the main fault being kuku's own screw-up in resolving this mess. it is the same... the only reason i say such things because I know holocause history but you dont know Chinese history in North America. i am quoting my response from anther post in liquiddota... ------------------ Your response was partially contributed to this problem.... Ching Chong and Chink are equivalent to nigger... Slaves were ported to US and Canada during late Qing (Ching dynasty) where men have pony tales on their head.. They could not speak English, being treated like slave and built majority of railways in Canada and USA... Canada use to charge head tax against Chinese ethnic only... The word Chink and Ching chong are originated to discriminate the Qing Slaves, the first mass generated migrated to North America looking for survival... Asian do not make as big noise as black... Does not knowing the origin and meaning of this word is ignorant, not excuses... It is valve's responsibility to stop this whole bullshit going out of control. "Ching chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped his head off." Chinese exclusion Act in 1882 in US https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chinese-exclusion-act/the reason is Asian history in the western has been under-represented, does not mean it does not happen. i can start a separate thread if necessary. ------------------- I didn't read the whole thing fully, but as a Chinese I can confirm that ching Chong itself has no meaning in Asia, it is a weak slur. The reason why it is offensive lies behind the fact that we know historically it has been used by westerners to degrade Chinese in the west, like in examples you put. Thus we equate that to being a disrespectful term. So maybe Chinese living in the west will be impacted, but Chinese in Asia don't really care about the term. You call/mock a black African a monkey like some do in Europe, and they're upset because you're associating them as an animal or a beast, or that you're mocking their appearance. You make a ching chong joke to a Chinese in Asia, we won't get upset over the word itself. We get upset because you decided to insult and disrespect us. And mainland Chinese are very proud people these days and think their time of being belittled is over.
exactly... the english word 'nigge'r translate to "black ghost" in Chinese... does not have any particular meaning either...
if a Chinese public figure calls a black person "black ghost" in public in Chinese, he may not carry the negative intent but a serious offense is made..
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edit:
meh i probably shouldnt have cared so much
valve should just put all this 8 parties in a room, if at all possible, in real life
everything would probably be solved in under an hour
(online communication/skype doesnt work that well)
(yea, those casters included)
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Osaka27148 Posts
It dragged nearly all the heat from Skem to Kuku, and of course anything that related to him, which include his daughter. There are Internet crazy mobs in every community and of course the Chinese community does the same. So all out the death threats and racist shit. I don’t approve of that action, but I understand their fury.
Justification of threatening death to a player's child. Classy.
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On December 03 2018 10:45 leemr wrote:Fyi, it was not Kuku who made that cover up. That was Paulo Sy, their manager. Kuku is not a good English speaker, you can sense that it was not him. Right after they qualified for Chongqing Major, Kuku posted on his personal facebook account about the issue. There he apologized with sincerety using our dialect and you can say that it is really him. That was also the time Paulo Sy revealed that he was the one who made the cover up. www.liquiddota.com
this is pure speculation. Afaik Kuku never publically stated that the cover-up story was posted without his knowledge or assent (feel free to prove me wrong). It doesn't matter who typed the words as long as Kuku was in on it.
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TNC just posted new statement on their facebook and it seems that this is going to end very soon.
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On December 03 2018 13:50 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2018 10:45 leemr wrote:Fyi, it was not Kuku who made that cover up. That was Paulo Sy, their manager. Kuku is not a good English speaker, you can sense that it was not him. Right after they qualified for Chongqing Major, Kuku posted on his personal facebook account about the issue. There he apologized with sincerety using our dialect and you can say that it is really him. That was also the time Paulo Sy revealed that he was the one who made the cover up. www.liquiddota.com this is pure speculation. Afaik Kuku never publically stated that the cover-up story was posted without his knowledge or assent (feel free to prove me wrong). It doesn't matter who typed the words as long as Kuku was in on it.
it is a collective decision. kuku certainly was a part of it (he has an official Chinese blog.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/phvOpTE.jpg)
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Canada2068 Posts
On December 02 2018 15:06 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2018 04:31 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 29 2018 02:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 29 2018 02:18 HolyPepsi wrote:On November 28 2018 01:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 01:12 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 28 2018 00:53 hunter_x wrote:On November 28 2018 00:13 Micro_Jackson wrote:On November 27 2018 23:55 nuketurnal2 wrote:
How many of us here knew that CC was actually a racist slur prior to this incident? In Germany its a racial slur against asian people in general. Its more directed to mock the language then any country in particular. Can confirm, for us this is not really racist. That's why this whole incident is a huge joke for me, blown way out of proportion. especially because it's really hypocrite. most Chinese people are pretty racist themselves, and dont even try to hide it. Can confirm its at least an offensive term that is used to make "fun" of asian people in general. the second part is just a good ol fallacy. instead of pointing fingers at all chinese people you should start accepting that kuku fucked up making fun of is not the same as racism, so there's that. But ok let's say kuku's all chat was racist, is what I say about China not true? You want to forget about a majority of China being huge racists? Also in the context of this matter, not only overall. the chinese community was racist as fuck to kuku. Why should we overlook this all the time, when we make a scene like that over a simple ching chong? I know that's what started it all, but that's looking at only one side of the medal again. hmmm.... the world ching chong may sound fun to you but it would be equivalent celebrating nazi and holocaust victim in Germany... other culture may find it funny do German still call Jewish people kike or musselmann? Judenrein? You see, your comparison would make sense if CC was associated with opium trade. It is not. Or Sino-Japanese war of 30s-40s. It still is not. Not going to say that TL fanfriend's opinion is valid, but CC is truly too weak of an insult, because it neither has brutal history associated with it nor is it insulting on it's own. Heck, the only reason it is an insult is because it sounds funny. In the end it works as lesson in Chinese mindset, given we have already established the main fault being kuku's own screw-up in resolving this mess. it is the same... the only reason i say such things because I know holocause history but you dont know Chinese history in North America. i am quoting my response from anther post in liquiddota... ------------------ Your response was partially contributed to this problem.... Ching Chong and Chink are equivalent to nigger... Slaves were ported to US and Canada during late Qing (Ching dynasty) where men have pony tales on their head.. They could not speak English, being treated like slave and built majority of railways in Canada and USA... Canada use to charge head tax against Chinese ethnic only... The word Chink and Ching chong are originated to discriminate the Qing Slaves, the first mass generated migrated to North America looking for survival... Asian do not make as big noise as black... Does not knowing the origin and meaning of this word is ignorant, not excuses... It is valve's responsibility to stop this whole bullshit going out of control. "Ching chong, Chinaman, Sitting on a wall. Along came a white man, and chopped his head off." Chinese exclusion Act in 1882 in US https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/chinese-exclusion-act/the reason is Asian history in the western has been under-represented, does not mean it does not happen. i can start a separate thread if necessary. ------------------- I didn't read the whole thing fully, but as a Chinese I can confirm that ching Chong itself has no meaning in Asia, it is a weak slur. The reason why it is offensive lies behind the fact that we know historically it has been used by westerners to degrade Chinese in the west, like in examples you put. Thus we equate that to being a disrespectful term. So maybe Chinese living in the west will be impacted, but Chinese in Asia don't really care about the term. You call/mock a black African a monkey like some do in Europe, and they're upset because you're associating them as an animal or a beast, or that you're mocking their appearance. You make a ching chong joke to a Chinese in Asia, we won't get upset over the word itself. We get upset because you decided to insult and disrespect us. And mainland Chinese are very proud people these days and think their time of being belittled is over.
I agree with your analysis of why there's a big hurrah in China over this issue, which wasn't seen with the MC thing in Russia (China moving up in the world, Russia not so much). At the same time, I think HolyPepsi explains well why ching chong is offensive and why it's important Kuku and Skem get at least some punishment as an example to others.
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Was busy with finals and projects in last few days so sorry for not keeping track of this thread. I want to thank everyone for their meaningful inputs and personal opinions. It's quite a surprise to see more than 100 replies.
I'm really glad to see Valve make things right at least for us in their latest announcement. In some of my replies discussion what might be a fair punishment, I purposed benching Kuku for the Chongqing Major only, and good to see Valve took the same measure, which would definitely serve as the justice needed for the Chinese community, while still making Kuku relevant to the scene.
To be honest there are still a lot of emotions underrepresented and consensuses yet to be reached on the crusade to mutual understanding in good terms. Valve's ruling might be an obstacle for many at the moment, but I believe if people in both communities could lift their bigotry and arrogance so they could listen to the genuine words of each other, this ruling won't be an obstacle for long.
I want to thank LiquidDota moderators for keeping this thread intact for the entire week. If LiquidDota needs anything from the Chinese forum under my moderation, which is NGA.CN Dota2 forum, feel free to reach me through PM. It's a favor I owed to LiquidDota. I will make necessary arrangements so my successors could continue to bring two communities together.
That's the cue to take my curtain call. Thank you all regardless of your hostility or hospitality. Raphael out.
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hey thanks so much for this post. I've been following the chinese reaction bits and pieces and your post clarified a lot of things, even things that made absolutely no sense.
I'm one of those "Singaporean guys" you mentioned in your post, which is why I was so super confused at the reaction of the Chinese community. The Chinese I know and are friends with aren't as petty as what is being portrayed right now and in fact, Chinese like you who have traveled and stayed aboard are much more matured than any other foreigners I've met who stayed overseas. It makes more sense that the anger was towards the lie than the racist remark which snowballed out of control.
I'd just like to really thank you for helping me have a much clearer picture of the entire situation and help preserve the impression I have of Chinese as a whole. It's unfortunate that this whole situation got blown out of proportion and caused multiple irreparable damages. It's a shame that your post won't be read by majority of the western community, which means the damage of how the community sees the Chinese would most likely be permanent.
C'est la vie. 谢谢你.我祝你一路顺风.
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Then why didn't they push the lying angle instead of the racism angle? Since the slight seems to be more on the fact that TnC and Kuku lied than the actual racism.
A major counter argument from the non-Chinese fanbase because there's been previous cases of racism by other players and none of them was met with a ban. They were simply fined, their orgs issue a statement/apology and that was it.
Second, if the problem was kuku's cover up, then why did the ban extend to Skem? He was punished quickly and accordingly. There was no coverup, yet he still gets dragged along with Kuku into triggering the govt response.
This is where many of us start to feel that the outcry is simply because it was racism towards the Chinese. Pro players and well known dota personalities have had racist slip ups over the years, but this is probably the first one that suddenly exploded out of control. Why?
If it's because of the cover up, why was Skem still dragged in?
If it's because of the word, then why did previous events never caused that big of a trigger? Why was bulldog overlooked and his stream is pretty damn racist with the "MingLee" that litter his twitch chat.
It's hard not to see it as being a biased response. "Racism is ok, except when it effects the Chinese".
That said, Valve gave their judgement, lets just move on. I'm hoping that no such issue will stem for TI9.
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-nothing of value was lost here-
User was banned for this post.
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All I can say is, clearly, if your country does not have democracy, it should not host any events, due to political influence. Hence fuck china. Fuck all ching chong chinese plebs inside it. Just stop making DPC points event in begotten places ruled by dictators and communism. Whats next, TI North korea? jeez
User was banned for this post.
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It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him.
Yeah except UC Berkeley lost in the court cases and has to pay the club College Republicans a fine, and revise their entire speaker policy and security policy as a result. So its not quite the same.
老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner.
Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents.
As for "lao wai" context is important. If you're telling someone how that person is a foreigner and you use the word "lao wai" then its fine. But the term "lao wai" gets casually used as a way to describe basically non-chinese in context way beyond them being just foreigners. Its used negatively a lot and you should be aware of this. The fact you don't think its used this way says a lot to me how you perceive Chinese usage of the world vs how it would be interpreted globally if people actually knew the context and circumstance. Lao wai continues to be used informally in negative context in many cases.
I see that you consider yourself very well educated but you cut certain things you're used to with some slack, like "lao wai" yet put other words like the "N-word" under a microscope to be broken down. I hope you can realize your bias.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:Show nested quote +老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents.
i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up.
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Ultimately, I am not all that mad at China because they/their government has acted this way in numerous legal and physical run-ins with SEA nations. That's par for the course. That doesn't stop me, a Filipino, from liking Chinese teams and players more than any other. I'm a Burning, Maybe, and Fy homer more than any other players.
I am extremely mad (and disappointed) however, at Valve's hypocrisy, which was basically the result of the Chinese community's pressure (and don't pretend that the major figures did not stoke the flames).
Solo's situation and Valve's resulting action was what I had expected from Valve. In fact, that was arguably much worse than this case because instead of a random racist remark at a pub, he actually matchfixed a game. Everyone who started out at TL knows how devastating this is to any sport, much less an esport.
In that case, Solo bet on the opposing team, intentionally lost, and when initially caught lied about what he did.
Valve's decision was solomonic for that case, and I laud them for it. They acknowledged the wrong and how hurtful the actions were to the scene, created a very strict anti-matchfixing rule that would be religiously enforced to future cases, but did not impose a penalty on Solo because there was no clear rule that he violated. It was a good illustration of the legal concept nullum crimen/poena sine lege - "no crime/punishment without law." This is a concept that has been generally accepted throughout legal systems in the world, especially democratic ones, because retroactively punishing behavior that was never covered by the legal system is inherently unfair.
So it's just really maddening to me to see them suddenly turn around and outright punish TNC and Kuku - including his teammates - for something that they had never imposed a ban and DPC point penalty for.
What giant hypocrites.
And yes, TNC and Kuku are idiots as well who deserve a punishment. Agree completely with that. But it doesn't change the fact that Valve quite clearly contradicted its old position that was quite fair, and in all likelihood at the behest of a segment of the community that brings in a lot of its revenue. And just LOL at their statement that TNC ignored its responsibility... so they should have kicked Kuku or used a stand in despite the absence of any ban whatsoever? That's what you call "effectively" a ban, without saying so.
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Feels like you're being petty, but that's just me.
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having posted in years, but no surprise all the low post counts starting to spread their bullshit
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老哥牛逼 不知道有没有微博账号让我关注一下
User was warned for this post
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Osaka27148 Posts
On December 05 2018 20:27 Doraemon wrote:
having posted in years, but no surprise all the low post counts starting to spread their bullshit
It is because this post got linked on reddit.
edit - as an aside, you are the recipient of my favorite mod message ever, so nice to see you sir!
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I'll address one specific thing from your well put insight.
I was watching that very game ignited the whole thing and immediately furious since that all chat didn't come with any context, which usually only served to be racist. The key opinion leaders (KOLs) in Chinese community were also immediately furious as many of them had oversea experience and knew how "chngchng" came around and so do I. To the Chinese community, this word is clearly racist, not only slur, not only pejorative, but straight out racist. In fact I cannot even find a worse racist remark to Chinese people than this one. Even though it might not be case for everybody for various reasons, and apparently not to the majority of /r/dota2, but it has been and will be the case for Chinese community.
What the chinese "community" needs to understand is that from a side of "the west" those words actually dont resonate with racism.
You need to understand that a lot of people have very few and even no interactions with chinese people in some parts of the world. If im perfectly honest i dont think i ever talked directly to a chinese person ever. So these sort of things ring empty for some, it's like saying "kung pao" is racist, some will raise an eyebrow and say "..The fuck?! You're kiddin' ".
In a good number of places in Europe at least, even kids when playing in kindergarden or whatever will basically say "chng chang chog ni no pao" and variations of that because, for people that have no interactions with chinese people , ironically, thats pretty much what chinese sounds and that succession of words mimics the meoldicity of chinese.
I mean for fucks sake, Rock-Papers-Scissors in german is ocasionally refered to Ching-Chang-Chong. People will call Chng Chng asians in general, without any sort of malice or atempt to insult.
Personally up untill this "drama" i wasnt aware that is considered "racist". The same way i had no idea "issei" is a deamening term twords japenese people untill i listened to Fort Minor - Kenji, luckly i never used it towards a chinese person since, as i mentioned, i have never interacted with one (maybe outside of buying some cheap plastic thingy).
So people needed to chill the fuck out and try and explain stuff.
Im not saying kuku or skem didn't know or something else, im talking in general.
Anyway, thanks again for the well explained take.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
Where in Germany is rock-paper-scissors referred to as ching-chang-chong? O_o
You have the standard Schere-Stein-Papier and Schnick-Schnack-Schnuck
I have never heard that one before...
And well I can tell you from my anecdotal experience of growing up in Germany as Asian that in the majority of cases ching-chong is used maliciously in order to mock you or provoke you.
How do people keep saying "Oh it's not really racist" when in fact it pretty much is THE term (besides "chink" in English and "Schlitzauge" in German) people go for in order to insult you based on your ethnicity.
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Hey man, nice write up. However, I really disliked your last point. Skem was with col for less than a week. To try to make a point that he said it because he was influenced by his teammates to say it is very much a stretch.
Also, I've never seen EE use those words like you say he has, surely you have an example or two you can share?
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Havent logged in to TL in years, but this thread stirred me the wrong way, so here we go. This is from a lamen united states pleb that loves his dota, is NOT racist in any kind, and generally a really good giving forward guy (self acclaimed, yeYEY!).
Its absolutely cringe seeing how the chinese people are in such a state of disapprobation of other asian races. I've played many games with voice chats, and when chinese speak, its always "#@% u burger boy", as im an american. I laugh my ass off because why get mad at words? Anyways, this isnt about me. What kuku said was childish, but he censored himself and said nothing vulgar. Im not defending anyone, BUT i am troubled the amount of backlash this has done. MC (iirc, he wished pain and suffering on the person) went far harder and everyone understood the nature of the comment, undoubtedly a mistake. We all forgave him, he wasnt banned in russia or talked to by vlad putin. Fact is that chinese "patriots" are really distant from how the world is right now, if they want kuku banned from CQ.
Im an american patriot too, but im also a human that can take a verbal aggresion without even blinking or losing sleep. Why? well, lets just say america has real racist issues and it has changed people. The Chinese scene was crushed by 2 words? Lol ok, you can keep your morals if they are going to melt in the summer when it gets heated (snowflake referrence). And dont tell me the chinese populous is accepting and forgiving on Malaysians, Thai's, Filipinos, and whomever else I forget. Because i've heard too many pubg lobbies and favoratism in dota teams towards full chinese squads.
So, I think we all need to drink some tea, coffee, or water, re-read what kuku said, and laugh at what this has all become. Hes almost half my age, and we're hanging him for saying 2 non vulgar wards. Guess ill travel to japan next time instead.
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On December 05 2018 18:22 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up.
I don't know what gui zi is so I did a quick search:
"Guizi (Chinese: 鬼子; pinyin: guǐzi) is a Chinese slang term for foreigners, and has a long history of being used as a racist and deprecating insult."
I don't know your parents and I am sure they're not racist, but they are you using a racist term. Just because they learn the word growing up does not make it right to continue use. Like white folks who grew up in America learning the N-word growing up aren't allowed to continue to do so. Well, it's America, you are still allowed to say it but you will face consequences. Time has change and if you are stuck in your old ways using racist terms, you will be view as a racist. My parents use to give weird looks to my gay friends because they learn growing up that is wrong but eventually understood that it is now okay. I hope you get what I am trying to say.
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On December 06 2018 01:39 Forgottenfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 18:22 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up. I don't know what gui zi is so I did a quick search: "Guizi (Chinese: 鬼子; pinyin: guǐzi) is a Chinese slang term for foreigners, and has a long history of being used as a racist and deprecating insult." I don't know your parents and I am sure they're not racist, but they are you using a racist term. Just because they learn the word growing up does not make it right to continue use. Like white folks who grew up in America learning the N-word growing up aren't allowed to continue to do so. Well, it's America, you are still allowed to say it but you will face consequences. Time has change and if you are stuck in your old ways using racist terms, you will be view as a racist. My parents use to give weird looks to my gay friends because they learn growing up that is wrong but eventually understood that it is now okay. I hope you get what I am trying to say.
guizi it is definitely a discriminative slur in Chinese and would consider inappropriate to use publicly. the word has a long history since China has been the warzone that suffers foreign invasion for over a century...
to put in context it is very silmiar to the word "peckerwood" where southern african slaves use to decribe poor white people. the word is somewhat mildly offensive... but should not being proud of.
the word nigger is extremely offensive to compare to "peckerwood" because black people were being exploited and under-represented. Same goes how German do not call Jewish people kike any more today.
English uses word "frogs" to describe French, is considered less offensive than the N-word .. since two cultures has somewhat complicated but "equivalent" times..
"Guizi" or "peckerwood" are used by "victims" to discriminate "offenders" ... are less offensive than "frogs" but indeed are still racial slurs.
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On December 06 2018 00:29 ShiaoPi wrote:
Where in Germany is rock-paper-scissors referred to as ching-chang-chong? O_o
You have the standard Schere-Stein-Papier and Schnick-Schnack-Schnuck
I have never heard that one before...
And well I can tell you from my anecdotal experience of growing up in Germany as Asian that in the majority of cases ching-chong is used maliciously in order to mock you or provoke you.
How do people keep saying "Oh it's not really racist" when in fact it pretty much is THE term (besides "chink" in English and "Schlitzauge" in German) people go for in order to insult you based on your ethnicity.
i know that it has been a term that was "commonly" used by kids in the 90s. at least thats what i remember since i grew up near munich. but i havent heard the term since my days in primary/elementary school...
because for a lot of people it doesnt carry the same stigma of other racist remarks like the n-word. it could be coincidence but i think its pretty interesting that some of the posters in the "valve bans kuku" thread that carry the very sentiment you mention are germans (according to their accounts)
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On December 06 2018 04:31 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 00:29 ShiaoPi wrote:
Where in Germany is rock-paper-scissors referred to as ching-chang-chong? O_o
You have the standard Schere-Stein-Papier and Schnick-Schnack-Schnuck
I have never heard that one before...
And well I can tell you from my anecdotal experience of growing up in Germany as Asian that in the majority of cases ching-chong is used maliciously in order to mock you or provoke you.
How do people keep saying "Oh it's not really racist" when in fact it pretty much is THE term (besides "chink" in English and "Schlitzauge" in German) people go for in order to insult you based on your ethnicity. i know that it has been a term that was "commonly" used by kids in the 90s. at least thats what i remember since i grew up near munich. but i havent heard the term since my days in primary/elementary school... because for a lot of people it doesnt carry the same stigma of other racist remarks like the n-word. it could be coincidence but i think its pretty interesting that some of the posters in the "valve bans kuku" thread that carry the very sentiment you mention are germans (according to their accounts)
i have noticed the same... i dont think chinese will get offended by german kindergardens...
the chinese mandrian onomatapoeia "nei-ger" is equivalent to "hmmm.." or "eh..." and frequently used in oral languages between sentences... which sounds excatly like "nigger" pronounced in English... this incidence is quite common in north america.. people just gave a good laugh of it..
chingchong is not the same, i have wrote a lengthy description earlier, the word came with a serious history of slavery, exploration and racism of asian culture in north america... the chinese history to build rail ways is a part of Canadian high school curriculum, not a part of USA... it is somewhat equivalent to the word nigger to describe Chinese emigrants fleed from Qing dynasty to new england, with pony tails (chink is the word to describe the appearance and ching chong is used to describe the language). the word carries 0 positive meaning.
and i am more than certain kuku used this word specifically to discriminate (not hatre, but to discriminate) Chinese.. it happened right after skem's incidence, and raven (ex tnc player) created a team "ching Chong" right after this for the battle cup.
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As far as my own experience growing up as Chinese Canadian and even according to the original Chinese post, the historical meaning of the word is completely lost and I haven't yet seen anyone get hurt over the word itself. The way ChingChong is used in recent times is to make fun of the intonation of the language and honestly i think it's the general accepted meaning of the word even by the Eastern audience.
Even from the wikipedia linked ChingChong is used to make fun of the language, I don't see ChingChong used or denoted as inherently expressing another race as inferior. ChingChong was not the problem in that poem just like the word chopped or white man or tail is not the problem in the poem. To associate ChingChong is the same as C!@#k and N!@#$r is mindbogglingly dumb mistake. As the other two has literal practical meaning of an inferior race while ChingChong has no such meaning at it's core. I really disagree that you are looking at the word from the historical perspective as it's obsolete and not even clearly defined to be more racist than what it means today which is mocking but not racist in an of itself.
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I look at ChingChong is a made up word that puts the other person at unease due to it's joking nature, slight connection to that person's culture, and it's ambiguous definition. It could be an insult, a greeting, an agreement, a disagreement, the possibility is endless and there lie in the problem and why there was so many conflicting opinion from Chinese/West.
I would be compare ChingChong with Dumpling foot, or BurritoHand. Though these two things aren't inherently racist and are made up just now. If you were to walk up to random person of the culture and say that to them even with a positive connotation (with the intention of salutation in mind), they would be first confused and then probably anxious if not offended due to human nature to assume the worst. This is the exact way the Chinese Scene reacted.
Applying this to the current case, the Chinese Scene are experiencing an word that could mean anything, is connected to their culture, and is coming from someone they don't know. This is a strange situation and inherently places stress on the recipient on what it could mean. This stress is further enhanced by any of the culture's bias (education/ films/propaganda embellished but based on real history of Century of shame+Japan's invasion). At the end the natural conclusion is the Chinese Scene would perceive the word through the worst lens even if it's not coming from a racist place.
To summarize, any ambiguous word spoken by a stranger that connects to the listener's culture spoken without context will inevitably invite disaster, even though the word may not be inherently offensive or been used with bad intent.
To the Chinese scene, you're angry and your anger is not to be denied. I would however like to point out why that could be the result even if the initial intent of skem/kuku is not racist or derogatory and therefore why some of our reluctance to agree with your decisions. To the Western audience, I hope this helps you understand why the Chinese scene has reacted in this way even if ChingChong is not racist, and why you should avoid racial words like these even if they aren't offensive to you or you didn't mean it in a racist way.
In the end I don't think the ban was justified, but since Valve has taken to bear the cross for the decision so I'll leave it at that.
Let's let the rift between the two scene heals and we can go back to memeing together. As much as we hate your shitty ass ACE orgs destoryed Wings and how you guys handled some of the past majors, as players I think we all just enjoy Dota and I do feel some genuine connection through our mutual love (and hatred) of this amazing game. We honestly have so much to connect on it's hoestly dumb that we're so focused this incident instead of our love for the game.
Thank you for reading and goodluck to your teams at Chong Qing Major
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On December 06 2018 03:58 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 01:39 Forgottenfrog wrote:On December 05 2018 18:22 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up. I don't know what gui zi is so I did a quick search: "Guizi (Chinese: 鬼子; pinyin: guǐzi) is a Chinese slang term for foreigners, and has a long history of being used as a racist and deprecating insult." I don't know your parents and I am sure they're not racist, but they are you using a racist term. Just because they learn the word growing up does not make it right to continue use. Like white folks who grew up in America learning the N-word growing up aren't allowed to continue to do so. Well, it's America, you are still allowed to say it but you will face consequences. Time has change and if you are stuck in your old ways using racist terms, you will be view as a racist. My parents use to give weird looks to my gay friends because they learn growing up that is wrong but eventually understood that it is now okay. I hope you get what I am trying to say. guizi it is definitely a discriminative slur in Chinese and would consider inappropriate to use publicly. the word has a long history since China has been the warzone that suffers foreign invasion for over a century... to put in context it is very silmiar to the word "peckerwood" where southern african slaves use to decribe poor white people. the word is somewhat mildly offensive... but should not being proud of. the word nigger is extremely offensive to compare to "peckerwood" because black people were being exploited and under-represented. Same goes how German do not call Jewish people kike any more today. English uses word "frogs" to describe French, is considered less offensive than the N-word .. since two cultures has somewhat complicated but "equivalent" times.. "Guizi" or "peckerwood" are used by "victims" to discriminate "offenders" ... are less offensive than "frogs" but indeed are still racial slurs.
My point is that "Just because you learn a word growing up, does not make it right to continue using it." A better example is myself growing up using the phrase "man, that's gay" when something bad happens. I learn that it's not right so I stop using it.
As you pointed out Guizi is offensive so we should educate people to use another term.
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On December 07 2018 01:27 Forgottenfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 03:58 HolyPepsi wrote:On December 06 2018 01:39 Forgottenfrog wrote:On December 05 2018 18:22 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. i know my parents, you don't. i know they aren't racist, and i know they don't use it as a negative term. they use it because that's simply what they learnt growing up. I don't know what gui zi is so I did a quick search: "Guizi (Chinese: 鬼子; pinyin: guǐzi) is a Chinese slang term for foreigners, and has a long history of being used as a racist and deprecating insult." I don't know your parents and I am sure they're not racist, but they are you using a racist term. Just because they learn the word growing up does not make it right to continue use. Like white folks who grew up in America learning the N-word growing up aren't allowed to continue to do so. Well, it's America, you are still allowed to say it but you will face consequences. Time has change and if you are stuck in your old ways using racist terms, you will be view as a racist. My parents use to give weird looks to my gay friends because they learn growing up that is wrong but eventually understood that it is now okay. I hope you get what I am trying to say. guizi it is definitely a discriminative slur in Chinese and would consider inappropriate to use publicly. the word has a long history since China has been the warzone that suffers foreign invasion for over a century... to put in context it is very silmiar to the word "peckerwood" where southern african slaves use to decribe poor white people. the word is somewhat mildly offensive... but should not being proud of. the word nigger is extremely offensive to compare to "peckerwood" because black people were being exploited and under-represented. Same goes how German do not call Jewish people kike any more today. English uses word "frogs" to describe French, is considered less offensive than the N-word .. since two cultures has somewhat complicated but "equivalent" times.. "Guizi" or "peckerwood" are used by "victims" to discriminate "offenders" ... are less offensive than "frogs" but indeed are still racial slurs. My point is that "Just because you learn a word growing up, does not make it right to continue using it." A better example is myself growing up using the phrase "man, that's gay" when something bad happens. I learn that it's not right so I stop using it. As you pointed out Guizi is offensive so we should educate people to use another term.
absolutely
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On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:Show nested quote +It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. Yeah except UC Berkeley lost in the court cases and has to pay the club College Republicans a fine, and revise their entire speaker policy and security policy as a result. So its not quite the same. Show nested quote +老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. As for "lao wai" context is important. If you're telling someone how that person is a foreigner and you use the word "lao wai" then its fine. But the term "lao wai" gets casually used as a way to describe basically non-chinese in context way beyond them being just foreigners. Its used negatively a lot and you should be aware of this. The fact you don't think its used this way says a lot to me how you perceive Chinese usage of the world vs how it would be interpreted globally if people actually knew the context and circumstance. Lao wai continues to be used informally in negative context in many cases. I see that you consider yourself very well educated but you cut certain things you're used to with some slack, like "lao wai" yet put other words like the "N-word" under a microscope to be broken down. I hope you can realize your bias.
So the word "lao wai" which was intended be a friendly word is now interpreted as an insult? I guess this chingchong incident is inevitable.
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On December 07 2018 03:05 deathonline wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 18:05 Corgi wrote:It's like UC Berkeley cancelled the speech of Milo Yiannopoulos cuz the students hated him. Yeah except UC Berkeley lost in the court cases and has to pay the club College Republicans a fine, and revise their entire speaker policy and security policy as a result. So its not quite the same. 老外 or "lao wai" is generally neutral, in American English it'd be just foreigner. Sorry but this isn't true. That other guy who's parents keep using "gui zi", he doesn't get it either. His parents are using it as a negative term, he just cuts them slack because its his parents. As for "lao wai" context is important. If you're telling someone how that person is a foreigner and you use the word "lao wai" then its fine. But the term "lao wai" gets casually used as a way to describe basically non-chinese in context way beyond them being just foreigners. Its used negatively a lot and you should be aware of this. The fact you don't think its used this way says a lot to me how you perceive Chinese usage of the world vs how it would be interpreted globally if people actually knew the context and circumstance. Lao wai continues to be used informally in negative context in many cases. I see that you consider yourself very well educated but you cut certain things you're used to with some slack, like "lao wai" yet put other words like the "N-word" under a microscope to be broken down. I hope you can realize your bias. So the word "lao wai" which was intended be a friendly word is now interpreted as an insult? I guess this chingchong incident is inevitable.
"lao wai" is friendly. "gui zi" is not so friendly
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EPT
