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On December 15 2011 00:34 scorch- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:40 SKC wrote:On December 14 2011 08:34 scorch- wrote:On December 14 2011 08:20 Rybka wrote:On December 14 2011 07:59 FinestHour wrote:
Anti mage is not overpowered, for the last time you just arent playing the game right. Instead of telling people they're not doing it right, tell them how to do it right. And don't just say "lol gank AM when he jungs lol". His blink requires too much coordination for most mid and low-level pugs. P.S. AM is in every pug. That hero is broken on every level, it's not just a pub problem. Look no further than every single dota 2 tournament played to date for proof. That hero is banned or first picked because it is too strong. If you know how to stop AM, go let the top teams know so they can use their bans better. If he is that broken in pro games, wouldn't he be banned every single game? Unless there are other 4 even more broken heroes, I don't think some team captains agree with what you are saying. Plus, why nerf him if he isn't considered that strong in Dota 1? Time and new heroes should fix that. Last tournament I saw, Lich was banned more often than AM, why aren't people complaining about Lich? It is a pub problem. Here's some data about the ESWC, that didn't happen too long ago: http://gosugamers.net/general/features/2846Furion: Banned in 18, first picked in 2 out of 25 matches. NS: Banned in 11, first picked in 5. AM: Banned in 12, first picked in 5. Chen: Banned in 13, first picked in 4. Lich: Banned in 12, first picked in 5. I guess we need to fix Furion before working on AM. There are so many factors that could lead to a hero not being banned or first picked. I'm not sure why you think looking at bans/picks is the way to see how strong a hero is. There are other carries that are almost as strong as AM, but picking Furion is never bad because he works well with almost any lineup that doesn't include a tinker. First picking furion gives almost no indication how you want to build your team and forces the other captain to pick 40% of their team in the dark. First picking AM gives the other team a good idea of the types of teams you can pick. Do you see why your statistics aren't really relevant? A better idea would be to look at heroes' win/loss record in 3-game series.
All I'm saying is that the hero doesn't seem to be as broken as some people seem to believe. If picking him was such a huge advantage, he would always be banned, no matter the strategy. He is probally the strongest carry in the game right now, but the fact he isn't even banned every game means the teams believe is possible to win against it. The fact they believe it's easier to win against an AM than against a Furion sort off means he is a stronger hero in competitive play, wether it's because he can fit any line up or not is meaningless, it's all part of the strenght of the hero. Add that to the fact that AM is not as strong in Dota 1, it means just the introduction of new heroes will fix him. It all leads to the opinion that nerfing him isn't necessary in pro level. It's mostly a pub problem, competitive play should fix itself with time, there is no reason to nerf him because of it.
Looking at win ratios isn't any better. Someone said Enigma went 15-1 in a recent tournament, but he clearly isn't overpowered.
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OH MY GOD , JUST WON THE PLAYDOTA.COM KEY DRAW. Life has better taste to it now. Also, no free invites for tl.net guys, sry. If I get any more(might happen right?) you get all of them though.
My happiness needed to be expressed in the internet.
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On December 15 2011 02:08 Qbek wrote:
OH MY GOD , JUST WON THE PLAYDOTA.COM KEY DRAW. Life has better taste to it now. Also, no free invites for tl.net guys, sry. If I get any more(might happen right?) you get all of them though.
My happiness needed to be expressed in the internet.
Congratulations! Enjoy raging at pubbies 
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On December 15 2011 02:29 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:08 Qbek wrote:
OH MY GOD , JUST WON THE PLAYDOTA.COM KEY DRAW. Life has better taste to it now. Also, no free invites for tl.net guys, sry. If I get any more(might happen right?) you get all of them though.
My happiness needed to be expressed in the internet. Congratulations! Enjoy raging at pubbies
Be sure that I will  I'm an extremely calm player and people raging actually make me laugh. It's sometmes really hard to refrain from trolling confirmed ragers xD
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Be sure to join the TL channel! very easy to find decent groups there 
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On December 15 2011 02:41 PassiveAce wrote:Be sure to join the TL channel! very easy to find decent groups there
God, I'll never play alone, I have a group of rl friends I usually play with, but will join the channel if none of them is avaible(we had the luck of getting 2 invites for 6 people, really convenient :3)
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On December 15 2011 00:01 Muki wrote:
Obsidian does pure damage, which goes through all armor and spell resistance. Antimage has a lot from both, but low hp so OD can eat AM for breakfast if he gets only a few seconds of help from a disabler.
ah Oke, I thought he did magic damage, fair enough.
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On December 15 2011 01:47 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:34 scorch- wrote:On December 14 2011 08:40 SKC wrote:On December 14 2011 08:34 scorch- wrote:On December 14 2011 08:20 Rybka wrote:On December 14 2011 07:59 FinestHour wrote:
Anti mage is not overpowered, for the last time you just arent playing the game right. Instead of telling people they're not doing it right, tell them how to do it right. And don't just say "lol gank AM when he jungs lol". His blink requires too much coordination for most mid and low-level pugs. P.S. AM is in every pug. That hero is broken on every level, it's not just a pub problem. Look no further than every single dota 2 tournament played to date for proof. That hero is banned or first picked because it is too strong. If you know how to stop AM, go let the top teams know so they can use their bans better. If he is that broken in pro games, wouldn't he be banned every single game? Unless there are other 4 even more broken heroes, I don't think some team captains agree with what you are saying. Plus, why nerf him if he isn't considered that strong in Dota 1? Time and new heroes should fix that. Last tournament I saw, Lich was banned more often than AM, why aren't people complaining about Lich? It is a pub problem. Here's some data about the ESWC, that didn't happen too long ago: http://gosugamers.net/general/features/2846Furion: Banned in 18, first picked in 2 out of 25 matches. NS: Banned in 11, first picked in 5. AM: Banned in 12, first picked in 5. Chen: Banned in 13, first picked in 4. Lich: Banned in 12, first picked in 5. I guess we need to fix Furion before working on AM. There are so many factors that could lead to a hero not being banned or first picked. I'm not sure why you think looking at bans/picks is the way to see how strong a hero is. There are other carries that are almost as strong as AM, but picking Furion is never bad because he works well with almost any lineup that doesn't include a tinker. First picking furion gives almost no indication how you want to build your team and forces the other captain to pick 40% of their team in the dark. First picking AM gives the other team a good idea of the types of teams you can pick. Do you see why your statistics aren't really relevant? A better idea would be to look at heroes' win/loss record in 3-game series. All I'm saying is that the hero doesn't seem to be as broken as some people seem to believe. If picking him was such a huge advantage, he would always be banned, no matter the strategy. He is probally the strongest carry in the game right now, but the fact he isn't even banned every game means the teams believe is possible to win against it. The fact they believe it's easier to win against an AM than against a Furion sort off means he is a stronger hero in competitive play, wether it's because he can fit any line up or not is meaningless, it's all part of the strenght of the hero. Add that to the fact that AM is not as strong in Dota 1, it means just the introduction of new heroes will fix him. It all leads to the opinion that nerfing him isn't necessary in pro level. It's mostly a pub problem, competitive play should fix itself with time, there is no reason to nerf him because of it. Looking at win ratios isn't any better. Someone said Enigma went 15-1 in a recent tournament, but he clearly isn't overpowered.
Well, win ratios in 3-game series should show the strongest heroes when played by evenly matched teams.
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Mith trust vs mousesports. Anybody know when it starts in "The Defense"? Just tuned into stream, game already finished or 30 minutes late?
Ah steam problems cancelled it.
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Get beta key-Steam down.
Story of my life
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There was some major lag issues earlier today in dota2.
The server also crashed at some point - this might be why steam is down atm.
Dota2 servers crashed like 3 hours ago.
Get up soon please!
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On December 15 2011 03:21 scorch- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:47 SKC wrote:On December 15 2011 00:34 scorch- wrote:On December 14 2011 08:40 SKC wrote:On December 14 2011 08:34 scorch- wrote:On December 14 2011 08:20 Rybka wrote:On December 14 2011 07:59 FinestHour wrote:
Anti mage is not overpowered, for the last time you just arent playing the game right. Instead of telling people they're not doing it right, tell them how to do it right. And don't just say "lol gank AM when he jungs lol". His blink requires too much coordination for most mid and low-level pugs. P.S. AM is in every pug. That hero is broken on every level, it's not just a pub problem. Look no further than every single dota 2 tournament played to date for proof. That hero is banned or first picked because it is too strong. If you know how to stop AM, go let the top teams know so they can use their bans better. If he is that broken in pro games, wouldn't he be banned every single game? Unless there are other 4 even more broken heroes, I don't think some team captains agree with what you are saying. Plus, why nerf him if he isn't considered that strong in Dota 1? Time and new heroes should fix that. Last tournament I saw, Lich was banned more often than AM, why aren't people complaining about Lich? It is a pub problem. Here's some data about the ESWC, that didn't happen too long ago: http://gosugamers.net/general/features/2846Furion: Banned in 18, first picked in 2 out of 25 matches. NS: Banned in 11, first picked in 5. AM: Banned in 12, first picked in 5. Chen: Banned in 13, first picked in 4. Lich: Banned in 12, first picked in 5. I guess we need to fix Furion before working on AM. There are so many factors that could lead to a hero not being banned or first picked. I'm not sure why you think looking at bans/picks is the way to see how strong a hero is. There are other carries that are almost as strong as AM, but picking Furion is never bad because he works well with almost any lineup that doesn't include a tinker. First picking furion gives almost no indication how you want to build your team and forces the other captain to pick 40% of their team in the dark. First picking AM gives the other team a good idea of the types of teams you can pick. Do you see why your statistics aren't really relevant? A better idea would be to look at heroes' win/loss record in 3-game series. All I'm saying is that the hero doesn't seem to be as broken as some people seem to believe. If picking him was such a huge advantage, he would always be banned, no matter the strategy. He is probally the strongest carry in the game right now, but the fact he isn't even banned every game means the teams believe is possible to win against it. The fact they believe it's easier to win against an AM than against a Furion sort off means he is a stronger hero in competitive play, wether it's because he can fit any line up or not is meaningless, it's all part of the strenght of the hero. Add that to the fact that AM is not as strong in Dota 1, it means just the introduction of new heroes will fix him. It all leads to the opinion that nerfing him isn't necessary in pro level. It's mostly a pub problem, competitive play should fix itself with time, there is no reason to nerf him because of it. Looking at win ratios isn't any better. Someone said Enigma went 15-1 in a recent tournament, but he clearly isn't overpowered. Well, win ratios in 3-game series should show the strongest heroes when played by evenly matched teams.
You mean like "sentinel first pick AM and win", "scourge first pick AM in the second series and win", "sentinel first pick AM and win the series"?
You also have to take into account how strong the first pick is in the current limited hero pool. If they choose AM have an advantage, but it could be the same if Furion was avaible and they first picked him. It doesn't have to correlate with the hero picked being better than the one banned. If there are 5 "OP" heroes, the 5th one may be the weaker, but will still be the one that dictates Bo3 results. You may only use those results to compare heroes actually ingame, ignoring the ones that were banned. More top tier heroes being release should help a lot in this regard.
Banned heroes can be a good argument, win ratios can be a good argument and single bo3s can be a good argument, but never alone, they all need more support to actually mean anything.
+ Show Spoiler +Sort off like what happened in The Retry vs Navi? Both AM pickers won, and then first pick Furion won (Yes, Furion was extremely lucky last game, hard to take anything for it, but it was the first example that came to my mind).
In an evenly matched game, white beats black in chess, but not because the white pieces are better.
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On December 15 2011 04:13 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:21 scorch- wrote:On December 15 2011 01:47 SKC wrote:On December 15 2011 00:34 scorch- wrote:On December 14 2011 08:40 SKC wrote:On December 14 2011 08:34 scorch- wrote:On December 14 2011 08:20 Rybka wrote:On December 14 2011 07:59 FinestHour wrote:
Anti mage is not overpowered, for the last time you just arent playing the game right. Instead of telling people they're not doing it right, tell them how to do it right. And don't just say "lol gank AM when he jungs lol". His blink requires too much coordination for most mid and low-level pugs. P.S. AM is in every pug. That hero is broken on every level, it's not just a pub problem. Look no further than every single dota 2 tournament played to date for proof. That hero is banned or first picked because it is too strong. If you know how to stop AM, go let the top teams know so they can use their bans better. If he is that broken in pro games, wouldn't he be banned every single game? Unless there are other 4 even more broken heroes, I don't think some team captains agree with what you are saying. Plus, why nerf him if he isn't considered that strong in Dota 1? Time and new heroes should fix that. Last tournament I saw, Lich was banned more often than AM, why aren't people complaining about Lich? It is a pub problem. Here's some data about the ESWC, that didn't happen too long ago: http://gosugamers.net/general/features/2846Furion: Banned in 18, first picked in 2 out of 25 matches. NS: Banned in 11, first picked in 5. AM: Banned in 12, first picked in 5. Chen: Banned in 13, first picked in 4. Lich: Banned in 12, first picked in 5. I guess we need to fix Furion before working on AM. There are so many factors that could lead to a hero not being banned or first picked. I'm not sure why you think looking at bans/picks is the way to see how strong a hero is. There are other carries that are almost as strong as AM, but picking Furion is never bad because he works well with almost any lineup that doesn't include a tinker. First picking furion gives almost no indication how you want to build your team and forces the other captain to pick 40% of their team in the dark. First picking AM gives the other team a good idea of the types of teams you can pick. Do you see why your statistics aren't really relevant? A better idea would be to look at heroes' win/loss record in 3-game series. All I'm saying is that the hero doesn't seem to be as broken as some people seem to believe. If picking him was such a huge advantage, he would always be banned, no matter the strategy. He is probally the strongest carry in the game right now, but the fact he isn't even banned every game means the teams believe is possible to win against it. The fact they believe it's easier to win against an AM than against a Furion sort off means he is a stronger hero in competitive play, wether it's because he can fit any line up or not is meaningless, it's all part of the strenght of the hero. Add that to the fact that AM is not as strong in Dota 1, it means just the introduction of new heroes will fix him. It all leads to the opinion that nerfing him isn't necessary in pro level. It's mostly a pub problem, competitive play should fix itself with time, there is no reason to nerf him because of it. Looking at win ratios isn't any better. Someone said Enigma went 15-1 in a recent tournament, but he clearly isn't overpowered. Well, win ratios in 3-game series should show the strongest heroes when played by evenly matched teams. You mean like "sentinel first pick AM and win", "scourge first pick AM in the second series and win", "sentinel first pick AM and win the series"? You also have to take into account how strong the first pick is in the current limited hero pool. If they choose AM have an advantage, but it could be the same if Furion was avaible and they first picked him. It doesn't have to correlate with the hero picked being better than the one banned. If there are 5 "OP" heroes, the 5th one may be the weaker, but will still be the one that dictates Bo3 results. You may only use those results to compare heroes actually ingame, ignoring the ones that were banned. More top tier heroes being release should help a lot in this regard. Banned heroes can be a good argument, win ratios can be a good argument and single bo3s can be a good argument, but never alone, they all need more support to actually mean anything. + Show Spoiler +Sort off like what happened in The Retry vs Navi? Both AM pickers won, and then first pick Furion won (Yes, Furion was extremely lucky last game, hard to take anything for it, but it was the first example that came to my mind). In an evenly matched game, white beats black in chess, but not because the white pieces are better.
I didn't say anything about bans and picks. In fact, I said picks and bans are a horrible way to judge how strong heroes are because there are any number of reasons a hero might be banned unrelated to its overall strength in the game. I'm saying to use hero W/L filtered to only games between evenly matched teams (3-game series that goes 3-games or 5-game series that goes 5-games if those ever happen). The sample size will be small for quite awhile but I think that would be the best way to generally gauge a hero's strength and, like +/- in other sports, should account for variation in hero selections and roles when in a large enough sample.
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are servers still down? I can't get into dota 2, its stuck on "Preparing to launch Dota 2..."
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On December 15 2011 05:15 BalancedBreakfast wrote:
are servers still down? I can't get into dota 2, its stuck on "Preparing to launch Dota 2..."
Steam just went offline again for me.
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On December 15 2011 05:17 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:15 BalancedBreakfast wrote:
are servers still down? I can't get into dota 2, its stuck on "Preparing to launch Dota 2..." Steam just went offline again for me.
Yeah for me too...
We are performing some unscheduled maintenance on the Steam servers and apologize for the inconvenience.
This is the official statement from the Steam forums.
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On December 15 2011 05:24 ChrisXIV wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 SKC wrote:On December 15 2011 05:15 BalancedBreakfast wrote:
are servers still down? I can't get into dota 2, its stuck on "Preparing to launch Dota 2..." Steam just went offline again for me. Yeah for me too... Show nested quote +We are performing some unscheduled maintenance on the Steam servers and apologize for the inconvenience. This is the official statement from the Steam forums.
Hope that maintenance includes giving me my 10 games on my wishlist
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So tired of AP...every game I get is people playing like it's the Dreamhack finals. My friends all randomed and the other team goes void/aa/es/vs/wr, trilanes, then sits the void when he rices all game. Thank god you can cm in customs.
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that cuz you are playing with a stack and are playing against other stacks, if you que alone expect picks more like void/am/drow/mirana
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EPT
