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Netherlands45349 Posts
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Dark Seer :3
puppey is strong!
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wow puppey so tanky barely killed him with a blackhole
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On March 26 2012 17:38 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 09:43 NB wrote:On March 26 2012 09:25 Xinder wrote:On March 26 2012 09:01 NB wrote:On March 26 2012 08:38 Xinder wrote:
Just got done playing a game with Riki. Went the typical carry build I've seen in pro games. PMS/Treads/Diffusal/BKB/Manta/then at the very end as we were stomping them finished my butterfly. Man it was soooo much fun! Hard times a lil bit before 6 but after that....omg so much ownage. try BH: pms -> phase boot -> drum -> haste What do you max first? I've seen builds saying max jinada and others saying max shuriken. jinada is for solo lane 1v1 and farm for semi carry, shuriken is for mid game ganking at level 6.The first build you will general stay in lane with RoH into BFury and farm up like any late game carry. 2nd build you get a phase boot and start roaming and earn gold by killing and track people and then buy drum which make you even faster to chase people down. I generally use the 2nd build bc i could just pick AM if i play carry. Skill build are: jinada(windwalk) windwalk(jinada) shuriken toss x3 -> get kill with disabler supports or stay lane until lv 6 and start roaming with phase boot. track shuriken max jinada max windwalk notice if you have farm early on, get the robe of magi before bracer so you could roam more with mana. If you solo mid you could get 2 level of jinada to last hit easier and bottle for rune control. While the bolded part is true, I'm going to explain why going neither 1-3-1-1 (3 points in Jinada) or 3-1-1-1 (3 points in Shuriken) is optimal. Instead, I argue that 2-2-1-1 is better than both. If you don't care about the math, don't bother reading the spoiler since it's justification. + Show Spoiler +Shuriken Toss
100-200-250-325
90-115-135-155
Jinada
1.5-1.75-2-2.25
12-10-8-6
windwalk
30-60-90-120
damage: 45-59
+3 damage per level
Therefore, at level 6 without items you do 60-74 damage per physical hit.
We will compare level 6 Bounty Hunter wielding 3-1-1-1 distribution and 1-3-1-1 distribution.
When ganking, the normal path you take is Windwalk - attack (Jinada) - normal attacks + Shuriken to finish.
You get bonus damage from Windwalk. At level 1, Windwalk grants a bonus +30 damage. Therefore, assuming you have no items at level 6 you will have a base of 90-104 damage per hit, averaging 97 just to be simple.
With level 1 Jinada (1.5x), you'll deal 146 damage reduced by armor reduction, and then it'll cost you 135 mana to throw a 250 damage Shuriken, reduced to 188 damage after innate magic reduction.
Let's just simplify by saying the armor of a hero you're attacking is 5 (which is far above average and generous), which means a 23% physical reduction, so you deal 112 damage with your level 1 Jinada+Windwalk-breaking hit.
Therefore, the Jinada level 1 hit + Shuriken level 3 hit deals 188 + 112 = 300 damage.
Now let's look at when Jinada is level 3 and Shuriken is level 1.
Jinada at level 3 is a 2x multiplier. Therefore, you deal 194 damage reduced by 23%, or 149 damage with your physical hit. Level 1 Shuriken deals 100 damage, reduced to 75. Therefore, the 1-3-1-1 distribution deals 224 damage.
Though these numbers show that 3-1-1-1 deals more damage than 1-3-1-1, note there are several factors not yet taken into consideration:
1) My math takes no items into account. The items you generally build on Gondar (PMS, Phase/Treads, Drums) add damage. That damage scales into the critical hit.
2) The manacost from Shuriken Toss increases heavily from level 1-3, while the cooldown stays the same.
3) Jinada cooldown is reduced from 12 to 8 when leveled from 1 to 3, meaning you have a higher chance of using it twice in a gank/chase.
4) As said before, 23% reduction (5 armor) at the point where you (as BH) are 6 is very generous. Most heroes will have lower armor, and the lower the armor, the better Jinada is.
However, I argue that 2-2-1-1 (meaning 2 in Shuriken and Jinada and 1 in Windwalk and Track) is better than both of these.
Shuriken damage increases from 100 to 200 from level 1 to 2. Jinada critical increases from 1.5 to 1.75.
Using the same numbers as before, your windwalk-breaking Jinada hit crits for 170 damage, reduced to 131 by an enemy armor of 5. Shuriken hits for 150 after reductions. Total damage from this is 281, which is still (barely) less than the 300 from 3-1-1-1.
However, note that you save 20 mana from throwing a 2-point Shuriken over a 3-point Shuriken, and that mana may be needed for a Windwalk. The cooldown and enhancement on the critical strike coupled with minus armor means a potential second Jinada hit is both more likely and deals more damage than it would with a 1-point Jinada hit.
Overall, 2-2-1-1 over 3-1-1-1 saves you mana and lowers the cooldown on Jinada by 2 seconds (16.7%) while dealing less than 20 damage less. After going 2-2-1-1, max Jinada. The cooldown reduction to 6 seconds is huge. Take a second point in Windwalk if you need it (cooldown at all levels is 15, level 1 Windwalk lasts at most for 15 seconds while level 2 lasts for 20), and then max Shuriken after, getting second level of Track at 11. Note that if you're playing with burst-heavy supports/gankers (Lina, Sven, Lion) maxing Shuriken first gives you that additional bonus damage to instantly kill an enemy. But since the difference between 3-1-1-1 and 2-2-1-1 is marginal, "bursting" isn't really an issue. Once again, since the math assumes you have no damage-adding items, the more damage you have the closer the damage gap between 3-1-1-1 and 2-2-1-1 becomes. In the end, 2-2-1-1 allows you to save mana and reduces Jinada cooldown. So really, skill Bounty Hunter like this: 1) Jinada or Windwalk - Get Windwalk if you're by yourself on a non-mid solo lane (unless you're against dual melee) and Jinada for a solo mid lane (unless enemy mid is strong ranged harasser). Get Jinada if you are up against a single enemy basically. Don't level until you know who's against you in lane unless you strongly suspect getting level 1 ganked. 2) Jinada or Windwalk - Take whichever skill you didn't take at level 1. 3) Shuriken - Take this over Jinada level 2 for lane control. Burst damage is good early on and the mini-stun may be useful in cancelling TP scrolls or certain spells (Shadow Shaman's Shackles, Spirit Breaker Charge). 4) Shuriken - Take second level of Shuriken over second level of Jinada for more burst damage (Shuriken level 2 deals 100 damage more than Shuriken level 1). 5) Jinada 6) Track 7) Jinada 8) Jinada 9) Shuriken or Windwalk - If you need the extra invisibility time, take Windwalk. Most of the times you won't, so Shuriken. 10) Shuriken 11) Track After this, if you haven't maxed Shuriken finish maxing it. Then max Windwalk.
i understand how well jinada scale early on but the problem is i have never care about maximum dmg out put. even if you could nuke smbody 400 dmg, you still need 1 or 2 more disable support to finish them off
i prefer shuriken over the rest simply bc it provides you a good 'range' nuke which save you from diving tower to finish off 100 HP heroes while you are on of the squishy yourself. Jinada will scale really well once tier 1 towers go down and you have better room to chase people around without diving towers.
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Puppey doing a Maelk, but with kills?
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navi style, make it look like they are starting to lose the grip on the game, proceed to teamwipe
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omg the itsgosu caster is so bad at observing ><
See the darkseer surging to pursue > switch to the top lane when no one is to show creeps vs creeps, don't notice the big teamfight on the minimap until his cocaster talks about it ><
Glad for him that valve implemented a gold graph, he has something to show and talk about every 30 seconds. I'm rarely annoyed by casters, but this guy is barely tolerable.
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On March 27 2012 00:59 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:38 flamewheel wrote:On March 26 2012 09:43 NB wrote:On March 26 2012 09:25 Xinder wrote:On March 26 2012 09:01 NB wrote:On March 26 2012 08:38 Xinder wrote:
Just got done playing a game with Riki. Went the typical carry build I've seen in pro games. PMS/Treads/Diffusal/BKB/Manta/then at the very end as we were stomping them finished my butterfly. Man it was soooo much fun! Hard times a lil bit before 6 but after that....omg so much ownage. try BH: pms -> phase boot -> drum -> haste What do you max first? I've seen builds saying max jinada and others saying max shuriken. jinada is for solo lane 1v1 and farm for semi carry, shuriken is for mid game ganking at level 6.The first build you will general stay in lane with RoH into BFury and farm up like any late game carry. 2nd build you get a phase boot and start roaming and earn gold by killing and track people and then buy drum which make you even faster to chase people down. I generally use the 2nd build bc i could just pick AM if i play carry. Skill build are: jinada(windwalk) windwalk(jinada) shuriken toss x3 -> get kill with disabler supports or stay lane until lv 6 and start roaming with phase boot. track shuriken max jinada max windwalk notice if you have farm early on, get the robe of magi before bracer so you could roam more with mana. If you solo mid you could get 2 level of jinada to last hit easier and bottle for rune control. While the bolded part is true, I'm going to explain why going neither 1-3-1-1 (3 points in Jinada) or 3-1-1-1 (3 points in Shuriken) is optimal. Instead, I argue that 2-2-1-1 is better than both. If you don't care about the math, don't bother reading the spoiler since it's justification. + Show Spoiler +Shuriken Toss
100-200-250-325
90-115-135-155
Jinada
1.5-1.75-2-2.25
12-10-8-6
windwalk
30-60-90-120
damage: 45-59
+3 damage per level
Therefore, at level 6 without items you do 60-74 damage per physical hit.
We will compare level 6 Bounty Hunter wielding 3-1-1-1 distribution and 1-3-1-1 distribution.
When ganking, the normal path you take is Windwalk - attack (Jinada) - normal attacks + Shuriken to finish.
You get bonus damage from Windwalk. At level 1, Windwalk grants a bonus +30 damage. Therefore, assuming you have no items at level 6 you will have a base of 90-104 damage per hit, averaging 97 just to be simple.
With level 1 Jinada (1.5x), you'll deal 146 damage reduced by armor reduction, and then it'll cost you 135 mana to throw a 250 damage Shuriken, reduced to 188 damage after innate magic reduction.
Let's just simplify by saying the armor of a hero you're attacking is 5 (which is far above average and generous), which means a 23% physical reduction, so you deal 112 damage with your level 1 Jinada+Windwalk-breaking hit.
Therefore, the Jinada level 1 hit + Shuriken level 3 hit deals 188 + 112 = 300 damage.
Now let's look at when Jinada is level 3 and Shuriken is level 1.
Jinada at level 3 is a 2x multiplier. Therefore, you deal 194 damage reduced by 23%, or 149 damage with your physical hit. Level 1 Shuriken deals 100 damage, reduced to 75. Therefore, the 1-3-1-1 distribution deals 224 damage.
Though these numbers show that 3-1-1-1 deals more damage than 1-3-1-1, note there are several factors not yet taken into consideration:
1) My math takes no items into account. The items you generally build on Gondar (PMS, Phase/Treads, Drums) add damage. That damage scales into the critical hit.
2) The manacost from Shuriken Toss increases heavily from level 1-3, while the cooldown stays the same.
3) Jinada cooldown is reduced from 12 to 8 when leveled from 1 to 3, meaning you have a higher chance of using it twice in a gank/chase.
4) As said before, 23% reduction (5 armor) at the point where you (as BH) are 6 is very generous. Most heroes will have lower armor, and the lower the armor, the better Jinada is.
However, I argue that 2-2-1-1 (meaning 2 in Shuriken and Jinada and 1 in Windwalk and Track) is better than both of these.
Shuriken damage increases from 100 to 200 from level 1 to 2. Jinada critical increases from 1.5 to 1.75.
Using the same numbers as before, your windwalk-breaking Jinada hit crits for 170 damage, reduced to 131 by an enemy armor of 5. Shuriken hits for 150 after reductions. Total damage from this is 281, which is still (barely) less than the 300 from 3-1-1-1.
However, note that you save 20 mana from throwing a 2-point Shuriken over a 3-point Shuriken, and that mana may be needed for a Windwalk. The cooldown and enhancement on the critical strike coupled with minus armor means a potential second Jinada hit is both more likely and deals more damage than it would with a 1-point Jinada hit.
Overall, 2-2-1-1 over 3-1-1-1 saves you mana and lowers the cooldown on Jinada by 2 seconds (16.7%) while dealing less than 20 damage less. After going 2-2-1-1, max Jinada. The cooldown reduction to 6 seconds is huge. Take a second point in Windwalk if you need it (cooldown at all levels is 15, level 1 Windwalk lasts at most for 15 seconds while level 2 lasts for 20), and then max Shuriken after, getting second level of Track at 11. Note that if you're playing with burst-heavy supports/gankers (Lina, Sven, Lion) maxing Shuriken first gives you that additional bonus damage to instantly kill an enemy. But since the difference between 3-1-1-1 and 2-2-1-1 is marginal, "bursting" isn't really an issue. Once again, since the math assumes you have no damage-adding items, the more damage you have the closer the damage gap between 3-1-1-1 and 2-2-1-1 becomes. In the end, 2-2-1-1 allows you to save mana and reduces Jinada cooldown. So really, skill Bounty Hunter like this: 1) Jinada or Windwalk - Get Windwalk if you're by yourself on a non-mid solo lane (unless you're against dual melee) and Jinada for a solo mid lane (unless enemy mid is strong ranged harasser). Get Jinada if you are up against a single enemy basically. Don't level until you know who's against you in lane unless you strongly suspect getting level 1 ganked. 2) Jinada or Windwalk - Take whichever skill you didn't take at level 1. 3) Shuriken - Take this over Jinada level 2 for lane control. Burst damage is good early on and the mini-stun may be useful in cancelling TP scrolls or certain spells (Shadow Shaman's Shackles, Spirit Breaker Charge). 4) Shuriken - Take second level of Shuriken over second level of Jinada for more burst damage (Shuriken level 2 deals 100 damage more than Shuriken level 1). 5) Jinada 6) Track 7) Jinada 8) Jinada 9) Shuriken or Windwalk - If you need the extra invisibility time, take Windwalk. Most of the times you won't, so Shuriken. 10) Shuriken 11) Track After this, if you haven't maxed Shuriken finish maxing it. Then max Windwalk. i understand how well jinada scale early on but the problem is i have never care about maximum dmg out put. even if you could nuke smbody 400 dmg, you still need 1 or 2 more disable support to finish them off i prefer shuriken over the rest simply bc it provides you a good 'range' nuke which save you from diving tower to finish off 100 HP heroes while you are on of the squishy yourself. Jinada will scale really well once tier 1 towers go down and you have better room to chase people around without diving towers.
Well you have to realise what he's saying is that you might not have to nuke that 100hp hero down at the tower if you went other build since he could be dead beforehand. It's not really such a simple relationship most of the time. There are situations that maxing Shuriken could get you a kill over other skill build and there are situations where it's the other way around.
At the end of the day I think no math can really solve such an issue. You just have to play with the builds enough(each one) to get a feel for all of them and then pick based on experience. By enough games I mean a LOT of games not just a few and thinking "meh prefer x".
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On March 27 2012 01:06 MrCon wrote:
omg the itsgosu caster is so bad at observing ><
See the darkseer surging to pursue > switch to the top lane when no one is to show creeps vs creeps, don't notice the big teamfight on the minimap until his cocaster talks about it ><
Glad for him that valve implemented a gold graph, he has something to show and talk about every 30 seconds. I'm rarely annoyed by casters, but this guy is barely tolerable.
yea, people complaining about tobi should see this guy....
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On March 27 2012 00:59 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 17:38 flamewheel wrote:On March 26 2012 09:43 NB wrote:On March 26 2012 09:25 Xinder wrote:On March 26 2012 09:01 NB wrote:On March 26 2012 08:38 Xinder wrote:
Just got done playing a game with Riki. Went the typical carry build I've seen in pro games. PMS/Treads/Diffusal/BKB/Manta/then at the very end as we were stomping them finished my butterfly. Man it was soooo much fun! Hard times a lil bit before 6 but after that....omg so much ownage. try BH: pms -> phase boot -> drum -> haste What do you max first? I've seen builds saying max jinada and others saying max shuriken. jinada is for solo lane 1v1 and farm for semi carry, shuriken is for mid game ganking at level 6.The first build you will general stay in lane with RoH into BFury and farm up like any late game carry. 2nd build you get a phase boot and start roaming and earn gold by killing and track people and then buy drum which make you even faster to chase people down. I generally use the 2nd build bc i could just pick AM if i play carry. Skill build are: jinada(windwalk) windwalk(jinada) shuriken toss x3 -> get kill with disabler supports or stay lane until lv 6 and start roaming with phase boot. track shuriken max jinada max windwalk notice if you have farm early on, get the robe of magi before bracer so you could roam more with mana. If you solo mid you could get 2 level of jinada to last hit easier and bottle for rune control. While the bolded part is true, I'm going to explain why going neither 1-3-1-1 (3 points in Jinada) or 3-1-1-1 (3 points in Shuriken) is optimal. Instead, I argue that 2-2-1-1 is better than both. If you don't care about the math, don't bother reading the spoiler since it's justification. + Show Spoiler +Shuriken Toss
100-200-250-325
90-115-135-155
Jinada
1.5-1.75-2-2.25
12-10-8-6
windwalk
30-60-90-120
damage: 45-59
+3 damage per level
Therefore, at level 6 without items you do 60-74 damage per physical hit.
We will compare level 6 Bounty Hunter wielding 3-1-1-1 distribution and 1-3-1-1 distribution.
When ganking, the normal path you take is Windwalk - attack (Jinada) - normal attacks + Shuriken to finish.
You get bonus damage from Windwalk. At level 1, Windwalk grants a bonus +30 damage. Therefore, assuming you have no items at level 6 you will have a base of 90-104 damage per hit, averaging 97 just to be simple.
With level 1 Jinada (1.5x), you'll deal 146 damage reduced by armor reduction, and then it'll cost you 135 mana to throw a 250 damage Shuriken, reduced to 188 damage after innate magic reduction.
Let's just simplify by saying the armor of a hero you're attacking is 5 (which is far above average and generous), which means a 23% physical reduction, so you deal 112 damage with your level 1 Jinada+Windwalk-breaking hit.
Therefore, the Jinada level 1 hit + Shuriken level 3 hit deals 188 + 112 = 300 damage.
Now let's look at when Jinada is level 3 and Shuriken is level 1.
Jinada at level 3 is a 2x multiplier. Therefore, you deal 194 damage reduced by 23%, or 149 damage with your physical hit. Level 1 Shuriken deals 100 damage, reduced to 75. Therefore, the 1-3-1-1 distribution deals 224 damage.
Though these numbers show that 3-1-1-1 deals more damage than 1-3-1-1, note there are several factors not yet taken into consideration:
1) My math takes no items into account. The items you generally build on Gondar (PMS, Phase/Treads, Drums) add damage. That damage scales into the critical hit.
2) The manacost from Shuriken Toss increases heavily from level 1-3, while the cooldown stays the same.
3) Jinada cooldown is reduced from 12 to 8 when leveled from 1 to 3, meaning you have a higher chance of using it twice in a gank/chase.
4) As said before, 23% reduction (5 armor) at the point where you (as BH) are 6 is very generous. Most heroes will have lower armor, and the lower the armor, the better Jinada is.
However, I argue that 2-2-1-1 (meaning 2 in Shuriken and Jinada and 1 in Windwalk and Track) is better than both of these.
Shuriken damage increases from 100 to 200 from level 1 to 2. Jinada critical increases from 1.5 to 1.75.
Using the same numbers as before, your windwalk-breaking Jinada hit crits for 170 damage, reduced to 131 by an enemy armor of 5. Shuriken hits for 150 after reductions. Total damage from this is 281, which is still (barely) less than the 300 from 3-1-1-1.
However, note that you save 20 mana from throwing a 2-point Shuriken over a 3-point Shuriken, and that mana may be needed for a Windwalk. The cooldown and enhancement on the critical strike coupled with minus armor means a potential second Jinada hit is both more likely and deals more damage than it would with a 1-point Jinada hit.
Overall, 2-2-1-1 over 3-1-1-1 saves you mana and lowers the cooldown on Jinada by 2 seconds (16.7%) while dealing less than 20 damage less. After going 2-2-1-1, max Jinada. The cooldown reduction to 6 seconds is huge. Take a second point in Windwalk if you need it (cooldown at all levels is 15, level 1 Windwalk lasts at most for 15 seconds while level 2 lasts for 20), and then max Shuriken after, getting second level of Track at 11. Note that if you're playing with burst-heavy supports/gankers (Lina, Sven, Lion) maxing Shuriken first gives you that additional bonus damage to instantly kill an enemy. But since the difference between 3-1-1-1 and 2-2-1-1 is marginal, "bursting" isn't really an issue. Once again, since the math assumes you have no damage-adding items, the more damage you have the closer the damage gap between 3-1-1-1 and 2-2-1-1 becomes. In the end, 2-2-1-1 allows you to save mana and reduces Jinada cooldown. So really, skill Bounty Hunter like this: 1) Jinada or Windwalk - Get Windwalk if you're by yourself on a non-mid solo lane (unless you're against dual melee) and Jinada for a solo mid lane (unless enemy mid is strong ranged harasser). Get Jinada if you are up against a single enemy basically. Don't level until you know who's against you in lane unless you strongly suspect getting level 1 ganked. 2) Jinada or Windwalk - Take whichever skill you didn't take at level 1. 3) Shuriken - Take this over Jinada level 2 for lane control. Burst damage is good early on and the mini-stun may be useful in cancelling TP scrolls or certain spells (Shadow Shaman's Shackles, Spirit Breaker Charge). 4) Shuriken - Take second level of Shuriken over second level of Jinada for more burst damage (Shuriken level 2 deals 100 damage more than Shuriken level 1). 5) Jinada 6) Track 7) Jinada 8) Jinada 9) Shuriken or Windwalk - If you need the extra invisibility time, take Windwalk. Most of the times you won't, so Shuriken. 10) Shuriken 11) Track After this, if you haven't maxed Shuriken finish maxing it. Then max Windwalk. i understand how well jinada scale early on but the problem is i have never care about maximum dmg out put. even if you could nuke smbody 400 dmg, you still need 1 or 2 more disable support to finish them off i prefer shuriken over the rest simply bc it provides you a good 'range' nuke which save you from diving tower to finish off 100 HP heroes while you are on of the squishy yourself. Jinada will scale really well once tier 1 towers go down and you have better room to chase people around without diving towers.
Wut >_>
If anything Jinada adds you more utility with more frequent CC. Shuriken literally only adds damage. Damage in my opinion is the worst reason to level a skill, especially when the scaling drops to half, and especially when the skill is single-target with nothing else changing. 50 dmg for a skillpoint is just awful. Not to mention that you'd actually deal more dmg with Jinada assuming you like, hit them. Unless you play BH as a ranged caster in which case you might want to reconsider your hero selection.
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Australia7069 Posts
i kind of hate the gold graph. it feels like a crutch for commentators to look at. when a team is dominating why do i need a graph to tell me that. when it's pertinent it's fine, but commentators are just clicking it anytime they dont have something to say.
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how the hell did venge just 1v1 riki ??? the caster didnt show it but I was like wtf
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On March 27 2012 01:12 cilinder007 wrote:
how the hell did venge just 1v1 riki ??? the caster didnt show it but I was like wtf
Mirana was there. I assume venge kited then stunned with mirana dpsing him down and just got the last hit.
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Australia7069 Posts
i love seeing tides go refresher and letting someone else go pipe, such a huge deal with 2 ravages
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Refresher Orb Tide is awesome
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Australia7069 Posts
and this caster keeps calling havorst dendi :S
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Australia7069 Posts
it's like he just blurts out shit as he see's it instead of knowing anything.
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they kill xboct "and dendi drops immediately"
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On March 27 2012 01:10 Kiante wrote:
i kind of hate the gold graph. it feels like a crutch for commentators to look at. when a team is dominating why do i need a graph to tell me that. when it's pertinent it's fine, but commentators are just clicking it anytime they dont have something to say.
Especially this commentator yes :D
When aL came back and won 2 big fights "aL is coming back *pop the gold graph* but they're still negative in gold so they're in a bad shape" >< When it's 5k gold difference at the 40mn mark.
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Australia7069 Posts
AL pulling a comeback. this would've been so much more exciting if the dumb caster hadn't called the game gg 15 minutes in
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EPT
