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General Discussion - Page 279

Forum Index > Dota 2 General
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IRC chatter should remain in IRC - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=tl.dota2

Posts that relate to topics with their own thread, such as in News, Tournaments or Strategy should go in those threads.
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
March 26 2012 07:35 GMT
#5561
"I do 70 damage. He does 50 damage. Oh wait he attacks three times faster than I do. I forgot to carry the 1. I lose."

What?
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
not jack
Profile Joined February 2012
123 Posts
March 26 2012 07:38 GMT
#5562
On March 26 2012 16:35 flamewheel wrote:
"I do 70 damage. He does 50 damage. Oh wait he attacks three times faster than I do. I forgot to carry the 1. I lose."

What?


He clearly did 3x50 but thought the answer was 50 instead of 150. The math is too complicated for the majority of fans.

Towers with ammo is just asking for fierce pub stomps. Zone+push=free dives.
PHILtheTANK
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1834 Posts
March 26 2012 07:52 GMT
#5563
On March 26 2012 16:13 Erasme wrote:
Tbh, it's a nice idea, better than the tower dealing 10000000damage.


The towers in Dota don't do 1000000 damage... maybe you're thinking of LoL?
Jieun <3
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
March 26 2012 07:53 GMT
#5564
On March 26 2012 16:26 ch33psh33p wrote:
Anyone got any fun Clinkz builds to mess around with?

I can't remember who it was but I tuned into a stream randomly and saw 5 drums + armlet.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
March 26 2012 08:21 GMT
#5565
On March 26 2012 15:54 randombum wrote:
So log into demon's stream partway though a game. He's getting owned and then opponents start all chatting, turns out its TLDB. All of a sudden everything is better than expectations.

lol... i did nothing that game
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
March 26 2012 08:24 GMT
#5566
On March 26 2012 16:52 PHILtheTANK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2012 16:13 Erasme wrote:
Tbh, it's a nice idea, better than the tower dealing 10000000damage.


The towers in Dota don't do 1000000 damage... maybe you're thinking of LoL?

Yes I do, it was simply to state my opinion ;p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-26 08:47:37
March 26 2012 08:38 GMT
#5567
On March 26 2012 09:43 NB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2012 09:25 Xinder wrote:
On March 26 2012 09:01 NB wrote:
On March 26 2012 08:38 Xinder wrote:
Just got done playing a game with Riki. Went the typical carry build I've seen in pro games. PMS/Treads/Diffusal/BKB/Manta/then at the very end as we were stomping them finished my butterfly. Man it was soooo much fun! Hard times a lil bit before 6 but after that....omg so much ownage.

try BH: pms -> phase boot -> drum -> haste


What do you max first? I've seen builds saying max jinada and others saying max shuriken.

jinada is for solo lane 1v1 and farm for semi carry, shuriken is for mid game ganking at level 6.

The first build you will general stay in lane with RoH into BFury and farm up like any late game carry. 2nd build you get a phase boot and start roaming and earn gold by killing and track people and then buy drum which make you even faster to chase people down.

I generally use the 2nd build bc i could just pick AM if i play carry. Skill build are:

jinada(windwalk)
windwalk(jinada)
shuriken toss x3 -> get kill with disabler supports or stay lane until lv 6 and start roaming with phase boot.
track
shuriken
max jinada
max windwalk

notice if you have farm early on, get the robe of magi before bracer so you could roam more with mana. If you solo mid you could get 2 level of jinada to last hit easier and bottle for rune control.

While the bolded part is true, I'm going to explain why going neither 1-3-1-1 (3 points in Jinada) or 3-1-1-1 (3 points in Shuriken) is optimal. Instead, I argue that 2-2-1-1 is better than both.

If you don't care about the math, don't bother reading the spoiler since it's justification.

+ Show Spoiler +
Shuriken Toss
100-200-250-325

90-115-135-155

Jinada
1.5-1.75-2-2.25
12-10-8-6

windwalk
30-60-90-120

damage: 45-59
+3 damage per level

Therefore, at level 6 without items you do 60-74 damage per physical hit.

We will compare level 6 Bounty Hunter wielding 3-1-1-1 distribution and 1-3-1-1 distribution.

When ganking, the normal path you take is Windwalk - attack (Jinada) - normal attacks + Shuriken to finish.

You get bonus damage from Windwalk. At level 1, Windwalk grants a bonus +30 damage. Therefore, assuming you have no items at level 6 you will have a base of 90-104 damage per hit, averaging 97 just to be simple.

With level 1 Jinada (1.5x), you'll deal 146 damage reduced by armor reduction, and then it'll cost you 135 mana to throw a 250 damage Shuriken, reduced to 188 damage after innate magic reduction.

Let's just simplify by saying the armor of a hero you're attacking is 5 (which is far above average and generous), which means a 23% physical reduction, so you deal 112 damage with your level 1 Jinada+Windwalk-breaking hit.

Therefore, the Jinada level 1 hit + Shuriken level 3 hit deals 188 + 112 = 300 damage.

Now let's look at when Jinada is level 3 and Shuriken is level 1.

Jinada at level 3 is a 2x multiplier. Therefore, you deal 194 damage reduced by 23%, or 149 damage with your physical hit. Level 1 Shuriken deals 100 damage, reduced to 75. Therefore, the 1-3-1-1 distribution deals 224 damage.

Though these numbers show that 3-1-1-1 deals more damage than 1-3-1-1, note there are several factors not yet taken into consideration:

1) My math takes no items into account. The items you generally build on Gondar (PMS, Phase/Treads, Drums) add damage. That damage scales into the critical hit.
2) The manacost from Shuriken Toss increases heavily from level 1-3, while the cooldown stays the same.
3) Jinada cooldown is reduced from 12 to 8 when leveled from 1 to 3, meaning you have a higher chance of using it twice in a gank/chase.
4) As said before, 23% reduction (5 armor) at the point where you (as BH) are 6 is very generous. Most heroes will have lower armor, and the lower the armor, the better Jinada is.

However, I argue that 2-2-1-1 (meaning 2 in Shuriken and Jinada and 1 in Windwalk and Track) is better than both of these.

Shuriken damage increases from 100 to 200 from level 1 to 2. Jinada critical increases from 1.5 to 1.75.

Using the same numbers as before, your windwalk-breaking Jinada hit crits for 170 damage, reduced to 131 by an enemy armor of 5. Shuriken hits for 150 after reductions. Total damage from this is 281, which is still (barely) less than the 300 from 3-1-1-1.

However, note that you save 20 mana from throwing a 2-point Shuriken over a 3-point Shuriken, and that mana may be needed for a Windwalk. The cooldown and enhancement on the critical strike coupled with minus armor means a potential second Jinada hit is both more likely and deals more damage than it would with a 1-point Jinada hit.

Overall, 2-2-1-1 over 3-1-1-1 saves you mana and lowers the cooldown on Jinada by 2 seconds (16.7%) while dealing less than 20 damage less.

After going 2-2-1-1, max Jinada. The cooldown reduction to 6 seconds is huge. Take a second point in Windwalk if you need it (cooldown at all levels is 15, level 1 Windwalk lasts at most for 15 seconds while level 2 lasts for 20), and then max Shuriken after, getting second level of Track at 11.

Note that if you're playing with burst-heavy supports/gankers (Lina, Sven, Lion) maxing Shuriken first gives you that additional bonus damage to instantly kill an enemy. But since the difference between 3-1-1-1 and 2-2-1-1 is marginal, "bursting" isn't really an issue. Once again, since the math assumes you have no damage-adding items, the more damage you have the closer the damage gap between 3-1-1-1 and 2-2-1-1 becomes. In the end, 2-2-1-1 allows you to save mana and reduces Jinada cooldown.

So really, skill Bounty Hunter like this:

1) Jinada or Windwalk - Get Windwalk if you're by yourself on a non-mid solo lane (unless you're against dual melee) and Jinada for a solo mid lane (unless enemy mid is strong ranged harasser). Get Jinada if you are up against a single enemy basically. Don't level until you know who's against you in lane unless you strongly suspect getting level 1 ganked.
2) Jinada or Windwalk - Take whichever skill you didn't take at level 1.
3) Shuriken - Take this over Jinada level 2 for lane control. Burst damage is good early on and the mini-stun may be useful in cancelling TP scrolls or certain spells (Shadow Shaman's Shackles, Spirit Breaker Charge).
4) Shuriken - Take second level of Shuriken over second level of Jinada for more burst damage (Shuriken level 2 deals 100 damage more than Shuriken level 1).
5) Jinada
6) Track
7) Jinada
8) Jinada
9) Shuriken or Windwalk - If you need the extra invisibility time, take Windwalk. Most of the times you won't, so Shuriken.
10) Shuriken
11) Track
After this, if you haven't maxed Shuriken finish maxing it. Then max Windwalk.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
March 26 2012 08:43 GMT
#5568
Yes, with BH you generally want to leave Shuriken at lvl 2 until Jinada is maxed because the damage progression is completely retarded and makes no sense.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
tube
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1475 Posts
March 26 2012 10:15 GMT
#5569
On March 26 2012 17:21 rabidch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2012 15:54 randombum wrote:
So log into demon's stream partway though a game. He's getting owned and then opponents start all chatting, turns out its TLDB. All of a sudden everything is better than expectations.

lol... i did nothing that game

its cuz you weren't high with me
tldb dota community represent
Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66366 Posts
March 26 2012 12:09 GMT
#5570
On March 26 2012 10:11 Dubzex wrote:
Singsing Plays Ursa



I watched this live on his stream and it was hilarious.

Cant believe singsing's shits all work lol
POGGERS
dragonborn
Profile Joined January 2012
4781 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-26 12:47:48
March 26 2012 12:41 GMT
#5571
LOL Quantic guys talking like singsing on stream.

MaNia "game was nice"
Link "about thaaaaaaaaaat"

what have you done singsing?????
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
March 26 2012 13:04 GMT
#5572
aparantly SK is going to sponsor a female dota team. with kellymilkies on the roster.

or it's a big fake. either way it's fucking hillarious.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SKDota


found it on reddit
Writer
Blitz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States706 Posts
March 26 2012 13:11 GMT
#5573
Kiante wanna make out. Flamewheel, ur sorta invited i GUESS. Since heyoka isnt responding..
[13:42:40] <13@mTw|syndereN|jD> Upvotes? ^_>
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
March 26 2012 13:15 GMT
#5574
On March 26 2012 22:04 Kiante wrote:
aparantly SK is going to sponsor a female dota team. with kellymilkies on the roster.

or it's a big fake. either way it's fucking hillarious.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SKDota


found it on reddit

O.O interesting...
SK? really?
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Benjef
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United Kingdom6921 Posts
March 26 2012 13:35 GMT
#5575
Hope that SK team is a fake oO.
<3 | Dota 2 | DayZ | <3
Qbek
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Poland12923 Posts
March 26 2012 13:39 GMT
#5576
On March 26 2012 22:04 Kiante wrote:
aparantly SK is going to sponsor a female dota team. with kellymilkies on the roster.

or it's a big fake. either way it's fucking hillarious.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SKDota


found it on reddit

Coach: Ben "Merlini" Wu

???
This space left intentionally dank /)3(\ http://i.imgur.com/RmeEUcF.png
dragonborn
Profile Joined January 2012
4781 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-26 14:06:56
March 26 2012 14:05 GMT
#5577
On March 26 2012 22:35 Benjef wrote:
Hope that SK team is a fake oO.

i hope so o.O

NEXT.Kz without sponsorship and these girls with SK?

http://steamcommunity.com/id/kellykami SK.Kellymilkies?

:O
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7596 Posts
March 26 2012 14:13 GMT
#5578
I do recall playing with Kellymilkies...some Hon. She didn't seem very MOBA intuitive or experienced at the time so this is kinda surprising!
Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
March 26 2012 14:15 GMT
#5579
^Well she "casted" the smm 2009
Dattish
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Sweden6297 Posts
March 26 2012 14:16 GMT
#5580
--- Nuked ---
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