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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 22:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
If that is what you are worried about- a simple fix would be to make it impossible to cancel out of the first X bit of the post attack.
Its essentially what you are willing to trade off of- the feel of having absolutely shitty animations or being slightly grounded after hitting something. Either case has the same effect for kiting- its just when you are frozen. Something like that would make the game MUCH more accessable- the only thing would be if you could make the visuals match up in such a way to make the process not feel clunky.
Sure, that'd achieve the same thing, but I'm hard-pressed to believe that would feel less "clunky" than the way it is now. Plus if you force someone to to be stuck for that fraction of the post-attack, that still isn't quite the same, because as it is now, you're still allowed the option to cancel out of your pre-attack at the cost of forgoing your attack.
As far as the visuals go, Valve has done a great job matching up all the animations and cast points to actually match the attack times properly.
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On March 12 2012 22:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:52 zeehar wrote:
in terms of dota2, the chinese are going to be playing soon enough, that'll be enough to keep the scene going healthily. it's not like bw in that the pros don't really have a reason to stay with dota1 as the games are basically identical They'll go where the money is, which means it depends on Valve/Icefrog getting TOs to switch. As far as getting TOs to switch, the cost of upgrading hardware and licensing the game is significant an non-negligible. It comes down to Valve/Icefrog making that cost reasonable, as well as pitching the game in such a way as to make it seem worth the cost. I have faith that Icefrog can do it, but at the same time, it's by no means trivial.
right, i was also not taking into consideration the higher system specs (what is wrong with me today).. i also have faith that the switch will happen, especially if dota2 will indeed be f2p. it already has lan...
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On March 12 2012 22:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
If that is what you are worried about- a simple fix would be to make it impossible to cancel out of the first X bit of the post attack.
Its essentially what you are willing to trade off of- the feel of having absolutely shitty animations or being slightly grounded after hitting something. Either case has the same effect for kiting- its just when you are frozen. Something like that would make the game MUCH more accessable- the only thing would be if you could make the visuals match up in such a way to make the process not feel clunky. Sure, that'd achieve the same thing, but I'm hard-pressed to believe that would feel less "clunky" than the way it is now.
that is correct. in fact, i think i'd be even more pissed off that i won't be able to move at all for a certain amount after every attack.
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On March 12 2012 22:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
If that is what you are worried about- a simple fix would be to make it impossible to cancel out of the first X bit of the post attack.
Its essentially what you are willing to trade off of- the feel of having absolutely shitty animations or being slightly grounded after hitting something. Either case has the same effect for kiting- its just when you are frozen. Something like that would make the game MUCH more accessable- the only thing would be if you could make the visuals match up in such a way to make the process not feel clunky. Sure, that'd achieve the same thing, but I'm hard-pressed to believe that would feel less "clunky" than the way it is now.
It would just be about making the visuals match- Ie Drow lowering her bow, for example.
But it would have 2 benifits- making last hitting not suck for new players, and making orbwalking mechanically easier for new players (ie more time to click away and less having to worry about hitting the timing exactly right).
It would at least be interesting to see if you could make it work, especially given the potential benifit.
I just fucking HATE the excuse of "oh its the way its always been, so thats why it cant change."
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On March 12 2012 22:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
I just fucking HATE the excuse of "oh its the way its always been, so thats why it cant change."
And this attitude is so very common in the dota community, just check the dev forums.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 23:07 PredPrey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
I just fucking HATE the excuse of "oh its the way its always been, so thats why it cant change." And this attitude is so very common in the dota community, just check the dev forums.
Personally, I feel any mechanics changes that have the potential to cause major balance implications should be left until post-release. So long as WC3 DotA is still a major balance point for competitive play (and it is), trying to balance them both together with their differing hero pools is difficult enough as is WITHOUT mechanics changes that disjoint their individual game balance.
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There is literally no reason to change the way animations are working, although the phrase "dumbed down" is overused it is applyable here. Compared to many things for example in the SC Universe this mechanic is so easy to access and learn.
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On March 12 2012 23:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 23:07 PredPrey wrote:On March 12 2012 22:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
I just fucking HATE the excuse of "oh its the way its always been, so thats why it cant change." And this attitude is so very common in the dota community, just check the dev forums. Personally, I feel any mechanics changes that have the potential to cause major balance implications should be left until post-release. So long as WC3 DotA is still a major balance point for competitive play (and it is), trying to balance them both together with their differing hero pools is difficult enough as is WITHOUT mechanics changes that disjoint their individual game balance.
I dont think you can do that. The point of beta is that you TEST things. I understand that a lot of teams are already switching over- but the alternative is to release a game then almost immediatly turn it into something completely different. I dont think that is going to work, especially when your main selling point (at least to your internal community) is Dota 1= Dota 2.
Realistically, Icefrog shouldn't care WHAT any of us think about Dota 2. Hardcore fans, or people like me who will put the time into learning it even though its an archaic system in some aspects- our oppinion should not matter. We are gonna get the game anyway. The real question is how is he going to convince the millions of people who play other Mobas, computer games, or even console games to give Dota 2 a shot. You cant rely on the name alone, and "come play a game that is harder- trust us, its good for you" isnt exactly a great selling point.
You either have to OWN the dota 1= dota 2, for all the good and bad, or admit now that you will make substantial changes to the game. You cant do both.
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Why would you want to change the animations? They match the models visually now and that's the only difficulty there was in WC3 IMO. I like the way they are in Dota2 and have no problem with any hero but Lina. I even stutter step with rylai when I play her(she's gooood for that)
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 23:28 Qbek wrote:
Why would you want to change the animations? They match the models visually now and that's the only difficulty there was in WC3 IMO. I like the way they are in Dota2 and have no problem with any hero but Lina. I even stutter step with rylai when I play her(she's gooood for that)
CM actually has NO post-attack animation, interestingly enough.
It's her cast animation that's super terrible, and has an insane backswing to cancel out of.
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On March 12 2012 23:28 Qbek wrote:
Why would you want to change the animations? They match the models visually now and that's the only difficulty there was in WC3 IMO. I like the way they are in Dota2 and have no problem with any hero but Lina. I even stutter step with rylai when I play her(she's gooood for that)
Personally I see both ways. The flavor you get from having different animations is something a lot of people like about dota. Having unique feel is actually one of the things I like BEST about dota, since every lol character feels the same as every other character in their role- just with different abilites. They try to separate chars out with passives, but it really doesnt work.
The problem gets to be how do you get people who arent willing to put in a LOT of time toward adjusting to play the game. Auto animations are some of the most basic interactions with the game, hence why their differences creating such a unique feel. But they are a huge barrier to entry. And when you are releasing a new game, examining ways to cut down on barriers to entry is always worth the thought excersise.
For example- if there was a way to capture the feel of every hero's auto animation, but make them all more responsive without breaking the game, wouldnt that be strictly a good thing? You make old players happy, and make it easier for new players to join in.
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I'd rather they made a special "target range" to practice it than change anything TBH. I mean how would you like to change it?
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On March 12 2012 23:54 Qbek wrote:
I'd rather they made a special "target range" to practice it than change anything TBH. I mean how would you like to change it?
No clue. I was just spitballing shit. Its an interesting question though: how do you keep the individuality through autoattack animations while at the same time cleaning them up to be more accessable.
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On March 12 2012 23:36 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 23:28 Qbek wrote:
Why would you want to change the animations? They match the models visually now and that's the only difficulty there was in WC3 IMO. I like the way they are in Dota2 and have no problem with any hero but Lina. I even stutter step with rylai when I play her(she's gooood for that) Personally I see both ways. The flavor you get from having different animations is something a lot of people like about dota. Having unique feel is actually one of the things I like BEST about dota, since every lol character feels the same as every other character in their role- just with different abilites. They try to separate chars out with passives, but it really doesnt work. The problem gets to be how do you get people who arent willing to put in a LOT of time toward adjusting to play the game. Auto animations are some of the most basic interactions with the game, hence why their differences creating such a unique feel. But they are a huge barrier to entry. And when you are releasing a new game, examining ways to cut down on barriers to entry is always worth the thought excersise.
i like how you're trying to think of ways to get new people involved. however, is it really crucial to get people "who arent willing to put in a lot of time toward adjusting to play the game"? are the hundreds of fans in the ongamenet studios who watch proleague matches every week all able to dragoon micro like stork? no, but it does not detract from their experience of enjoying the game one bit. can i marine split like MKP does? no, but it doesn't make it any less fun for me to play sc2 even though i'm a scrub.
edit: if anything, making the pros seem godly and even better than us at even the smallest things may even facilitate fanclub growth and desire to watch more. one thing about the sc2 community i hate is the influx of people who think they have the right to call pros noobs and criticize high-level games as being terrible and boring just because they're in masters and can control a deathball. if everyone could lasthit as well as link then i have no doubt some people wouldn't have much qualms start saying shit like "omfg link you can't carry a team for shit" when he makes a mistake or makes a bad judgement.
i believe what people think of as "fun" will come from overall game design and in dota/lol/hon's case, how much involvement a player has in his/her team's success. even a noob tidehunter can be told to get a blink dagger and then stick together with the team to blink > ravage every single teamfight (not saying tide is easy to play, just saying tide has an relatively easily understandable way to make a huge impact in teamfights). some casuals will find it fun. on the other hand, some won't. my friend loves to pick ashe and just sit in a lane and farm all day (she just autoattacks and spams W) and get the shiny items. for her, it's got nothing to do with how easy or hard it is to LH.
in my view a healthy, large, lasting competitive scene eventually will not depend on casuals playing the game WELL but rather them finding it FUN to play and watch. this is how BW in korea developed. i don't think the many LoL viewers are watching because they can LH as well as the pros but rather because the entire game is enjoyable to both play and watch. this is where i believe, in a couple of years time, dota2 will be successful. i'm sure if dota2 was released and was f2p right now i think we'd have almost as many people playing it.
On March 12 2012 23:36 Two_DoWn wrote:
For example- if there was a way to capture the feel of every hero's auto animation, but make them all more responsive without breaking the game, wouldnt that be strictly a good thing? You make old players happy, and make it easier for new players to join in.
this is by far the most difficult thing to actually realise, however. i would be all for it if there was a way. the proposal you suggested earlier, however (uncancellable backswings) would probably not make the game any more responsive.
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It's also a balancing factor, removing the difficulties of attack animations could drastically alter balance. You'd beback to square one for early game balance, last hitting would be purely up to missile speed and damage. Nit saying it's a good or a bad thing, just a thing.
Do you want Zeus or lina to get any stronger early game? They would if this happened. Just a random example, but you get my point.
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I dont see why you would change the atack anmations, if you dont like an animation on a specific hero you just dont play that hero, I dont see how that's a problem for casuals since there are over 100 heros
you would change something that would be super hard to actualy achive but it wouldnt actualy have much of a difference for players that dont want to dedicate the time to learning the game anyway
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That is a very good point. But then again- remember that for all the sucess BW had in Korea, it was, for all intents and purposes, dead everywhere else. Not to mention that our idea of fun- trying very had to come as close as we can to pro play, is very different from someone who doesnt even know who Idra is.
This is a competitive SC2 site after all- the people who congregate here are VERY different from the typical cross section of people who will pick up a computer game.
Take the example of your friend. If she cant adjust quickly enough to drow's auto, she wont be able to last hit, and she wont be able to buy any items in Dota. I doubt very much she would find the game as fun in that case.
Remember- unlike SC2 and BW, which really didnt have any decent competition in the genre- Dota is staring right at LoL. And while they are both different enough games to where each will be able to thrive without cannibalizing the other, Dota has a long way to go in terms of being able to make new players feel as though they are being effective. There are already a lot of punishing game mechanics that make Dota what it is- long cc, longer map, ect- Im not sure that you want one of the biggest and longest lasting to be the first thing that someone notices and has to get over.
And as weird as this may seem to say- one of the best examples of this is the idea of Elo hell that persists in the LoL community. If you are unfamiliar with the term, it basically refers to the idea that people think that they are much better than the ranking they have attained, and are simply being held there by moronic teammates who throw every game. LoL is VERY good at making casual players feel as though they are gods.
All that being said, there may not be a way to change that for the better. Again, I dont think they should change it just for the sake of changing it. I'm just trying to look at a problem and see if there is a solution that fixes that problem but doesnt impact balance or the way the game is played at a competitive level. But if there really is no way to change it, there probably does need to be some sort of training mode, and much more in depth than just "here is a row of creeps, last hit them." Make it a timing game like guitar hero with visual cues.
On March 13 2012 00:16 cilinder007 wrote:
I dont see why you would change the atack anmations, if you dont like an animation on a specific hero you just dont play that hero, I dont see how that's a problem for casuals since there are over 100 heros
you would change something that would be super hard to actualy achive but it wouldnt actualy have much of a difference for players that dont want to dedicate the time to learning the game anyway
Those players are going to be the ones who separate the game from a cult following to an actual force.
For better or worse, the massive presence behind lol is what make the game the most watched at every event. I dont think the right thing for dota 2 is to say "screw it, we dont need them, its too hard anyway."
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On March 13 2012 00:18 Two_DoWn wrote:
But if there really is no way to change it, there probably does need to be some sort of training mode, and much more in depth than just "here is a row of creeps, last hit them." Make it a timing game like guitar hero with visual cues.
this actually sounds like a pretty good idea, complete with different levels for different hero levels (especially for agi heroes who have the biggest attack animation changes as they grow). maybe the game could even ask players who repeatedly aren't doing well in terms of cs if they want to practice LH. we could even have leaderboards/achievements for this "mini-game," so to speak.
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I don't really think its a "barrier to entry", because everyone is in the same boat, all newbies are going to miss tons of last hits. It's more a barrier to getting good, in that if you play casually and don't focus on the same heroes you wont improve your last hitting, orb walking, etc...too much. To me it's only really noticeable if you're coming from LoL, because when you switch over you go from getting some huge percentage if not all last hits to missing a huge percentage of them in dota2. At worst it's discouraging to a new player, although they really wont know any better anyway.
While I can see the benefits to it being easier, I can't see how they could change it without altering the feel and avoiding the huge balance ramifications (they really would be huge). Personally I'm happy for it to stay the way it is, because I like that at basically every level below pro it's hard for people to adjust to the different animations and that every hero feels different in multiple aspects. I could even see it as possibly being a benefit for the people that like to "main" certain heroes like they do in LoL, as it's another thing they can differentiate themselves with.
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I dont think there will be any problem with people playing the game as long as china swiches over, you're talking about getting a playerbase, but dota already had like a 6 million playerbase before dota2 came out, its just that its a different game from LoL which will be more popular with casual players in the us regardless if they make these changes you are talking about or not, at least thats my opinion
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