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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 21:33 ilovelings wrote:
Nope. I don't want a simpler game. If I wanted a simpler game I would still be playing sc2.
I don't see any reason not to simplify insofar as it has a minimal effect on gameplay. Like I said, in almost all cases, simplying the orb effect table isn't going to have a meaningful effect on how you're playing the game, because you shouldn't be trying to stack orbs anyway except in a few cases that aren't affected by the change. It only serves to confuse the shit out of new players.
Obviously the debuff type/dispelling table is harder to mess with without affecting something important.
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Yeah I think Dota 2 is already more simple than Dota 1 for obvious reasons, but I have a huge LoL background (platinum player, almost 4000 games) and while I can see that Dota will never be as easy as LoL, they did many things right there. It's absolutely no big deal for example to show the mana bars instead of making it necessary to click the enemy hero to see his mana (will say, u CAN see his mana anyway u just need another click). Also, many animations (not only attack but cast animations) feel really clumsy and old fashioned, but maybe making everything a tiny bit faster would cause major balance issues, I don't know. In my opinion Dota should become as easy to get into as possible by not making it harder than necessary "on purpose", on pro level this won't make a difference anyway.
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On March 12 2012 20:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 19:04 NB wrote:
pugna decrep himself to take more gale dmg... ~_~
Did you use your ultimate before he Decrepified himself? The Poison Nova debuff is based on the WC3 spell Phoenix Fire, which is a physical-typed debuff--so even though the damage done is magical, gaining physical immunity (via Decrepify) dispels the debuff. So while Decrepify would amplify Venomous Gale damage, dispelling Poison Nova should cause him to take less damage overall. Note that Decrepifying yourself BEFORE Poison Nova doesn't prevent the debuff from being applied--and causes you to take more damage as expected.
pretty sure i didnt have my ulti as well as mana to cast it... he was chasing me out of his base when i failed to fountain farming, i galed him and then he decrep himself... i bet its a double click-self cast kinda thing. BlitzDota lol
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 21:50 PredPrey wrote:
Yeah I think Dota 2 is already more simple than Dota 1 for obvious reasons, but I have a huge LoL background (platinum player, almost 4000 games) and while I can see that Dota will never be as easy as LoL, they did many things right there. It's absolutely no big deal for example to show the mana bars instead of making it necessary to click the enemy hero to see his mana (will say, u CAN see his mana anyway u just need another click). Also, many animations (not only attack but cast animations) feel really clumsy and old fashioned, but maybe making everything a tiny bit faster would cause major balance issues, I don't know. In my opinion Dota should become as easy to get into as possible by not making it harder than necessary "on purpose", on pro level this won't make a difference anyway.
Attack/cast animations and turn times are enormously relevant to balance. You can't clean up animations across the board without creating a lot of potential problems.
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On March 12 2012 22:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 21:50 PredPrey wrote:
Yeah I think Dota 2 is already more simple than Dota 1 for obvious reasons, but I have a huge LoL background (platinum player, almost 4000 games) and while I can see that Dota will never be as easy as LoL, they did many things right there. It's absolutely no big deal for example to show the mana bars instead of making it necessary to click the enemy hero to see his mana (will say, u CAN see his mana anyway u just need another click). Also, many animations (not only attack but cast animations) feel really clumsy and old fashioned, but maybe making everything a tiny bit faster would cause major balance issues, I don't know. In my opinion Dota should become as easy to get into as possible by not making it harder than necessary "on purpose", on pro level this won't make a difference anyway. Attack/cast animations and turn times are enormously relevant to balance. You can't clean up animations across the board without creating a lot of potential problems.
How true is this though? At top level, everyone is going to be able to last hit anyway, no matter how obscure the animation is (or at least that is what I have been led to believe). Wouldnt you be able to achieve the same effect by clearing the delay caused by hitches in animation by just subtract that time from their attack speed?
Ie Tiny would still attack really slowly, but instead of being because he takes forever to lift his arm, he simply cant attack as quickly. You know what that flat ammount of time is in terms of what you remove when cleaning, so just subtract that from his attack speed. Overall you have the same effect- Tiny doesnt hit very often- only instead of the result coming from a horrid animation, it comes from an actual balancable factor- his attack speed.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 22:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
How true is this though? At top level, everyone is going to be able to last hit anyway, no matter how obscure the animation is (or at least that is what I have been led to believe). Wouldnt you be able to achieve the same effect by clearing the delay caused by hitches in animation by just subtract that time from their attack speed?
No, because animation determines the division of the attack time between the pre-attack time and post-attack time. Essentially, having a "better animation" amounts to having the attack time heavily end-loaded into the post-attack (which you can cancel out of). This in turn affects how effective you can be in kiting or orb-walking with a given hero. In the theoretical extreme case, a hero with 0 pre-attack time, and all post-attack could *always* be moving between attacks and spend zero time in the process of standing and attacking, which means it would be possible to kite and orb-walk without stopping your movement at all.
Particularly as it pertains to ranged heroes, you want to balance their overall baseline DPS, and you also don't want to accept making all their animations super end-loaded and make them all super easy to kite with. Essentially, attack speed defines how much stand-and-fire DPS you can achieve, while your attack animation determines what percentage of time can be spent moving when you're orbwalking/kiting without significant DPS loss.
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Although the Hit-Animations play a small role in balance, the casting-animations are what creates balance ( imagine leshrac for example with a better animation; he would be a far better hero )
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On March 12 2012 22:15 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:02 TheYango wrote:On March 12 2012 21:50 PredPrey wrote:
Yeah I think Dota 2 is already more simple than Dota 1 for obvious reasons, but I have a huge LoL background (platinum player, almost 4000 games) and while I can see that Dota will never be as easy as LoL, they did many things right there. It's absolutely no big deal for example to show the mana bars instead of making it necessary to click the enemy hero to see his mana (will say, u CAN see his mana anyway u just need another click). Also, many animations (not only attack but cast animations) feel really clumsy and old fashioned, but maybe making everything a tiny bit faster would cause major balance issues, I don't know. In my opinion Dota should become as easy to get into as possible by not making it harder than necessary "on purpose", on pro level this won't make a difference anyway. Attack/cast animations and turn times are enormously relevant to balance. You can't clean up animations across the board without creating a lot of potential problems. How true is this though? At top level, everyone is going to be able to last hit anyway, no matter how obscure the animation is (or at least that is what I have been led to believe). Wouldnt you be able to achieve the same effect by clearing the delay caused by hitches in animation by just subtract that time from their attack speed? Ie Tiny would still attack really slowly, but instead of being because he takes forever to lift his arm, he simply cant attack as quickly. You know what that flat ammount of time is in terms of what you remove when cleaning, so just subtract that from his attack speed. Overall you have the same effect- Tiny doesnt hit very often- only instead of the result coming from a horrid animation, it comes from an actual balancable factor- his attack speed.
attack speed determines how fast the animation plays out, so it's kind of a moot point. try playing drow to see the most drastic example of this (her attack animation at level 1 vs her attack animation at level 16 with level 3 ult)
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On March 12 2012 22:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
How true is this though? At top level, everyone is going to be able to last hit anyway, no matter how obscure the animation is (or at least that is what I have been led to believe). Wouldnt you be able to achieve the same effect by clearing the delay caused by hitches in animation by just subtract that time from their attack speed? No, because animation determines the division of the attack time between the pre-attack time and post-attack time. Essentially, having a "better animation" amounts to having the attack time heavily end-loaded into the post-attack (which you can cancel out of). This in turn affects how easy it is to kite or orb-walk with a given hero. Particularly as it pertains to ranged heroes, you want to balance their overall baseline DPS, and you also don't want to accept making all their animations super end-loaded and make them all super easy to kite with.
dunno how relevant this is, but isn't the post-attack time (i.e. the missile speed) fixed for each hero?
edit: nvm, forgot about backswings
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 22:28 zeehar wrote:
isn't the post-attack time (i.e. the missile speed) fixed for each hero?
By post-attack time, I mean the post-attack animation.
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On March 12 2012 22:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:28 zeehar wrote:
isn't the post-attack time (i.e. the missile speed) fixed for each hero? By post-attack time, I mean the post-attack animation.
ninja'd, and yesh my bad
anyway, i think having different attack animations are a good part of the game that lends extra flavour to each hero. no real need to change it, last hitting is a skill that shouldn't be made easy just for the sake of making it easy.
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United States47024 Posts
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I'm aware of the importance of animations in Dota, for example Ashe (LoL "frost orb") vs Drow, Ashe can theoretically kite perfectly while Drow can't, and if Drow would move and turn like Ashe, Drow would be a lot better obviously. I know that this is very hard to change and that's one of the reasons I'm afraid Dota is nothing for casuals (like I experience with my friends, I'm a hardcore gamer playing hard games like SC2 masters league, high level LoL, i can deal with it, but they can't) and in my opinion, casuals are very important for a game too.
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This has absolutely no influenece on "true" casuals? A true Casual won't Orbwalk often/at all  . The true Casual is autoattacking in his lane annoying the tryhard (like me :D) next to him .
It's the (wannabe) hardcores that are used to lol (and hon?) which actually want Hon 2 or Lol 2... But this is Dota 2, Dota 2 has huge animation diffrences between heroes... Removing that would totally destroy the "feel" many of the Heroes have... with it
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as a casual gamer (platinum sc2, not so high level LoL) I actually really like the turn and attack animations the way they are, it makes kiting a bit more reasonable and adds an interesting dynamic to chasing i think, not to mention its massive implications on balance. (anyone whos played crystal maiden probably knows what its like to be running away from a melee hero that can kill you while trying to decide if you have enough room between you to get off a frostbite.)
I like how you have to practice heroes to get used to their attack animations, and also differences between projectile speed, some can seem completely impossible (Lina), while some can seem almost imba fast (sniper).
Guess it depends on what "Casual" means.
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Yeah maybe it's even me, I really "want to like" the way Dota 2 feels, but to be honest I am not fully satisfied with the clumsy feel it has. Well Valve wanted a complete transformation of Dota 1 so I think it's already too late. You're right, you would have had to make kind of a new game instead if ur intention would be to make the animations faster.
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On March 12 2012 22:34 PredPrey wrote:
casuals are very important for a game too.
meh, they're good for initial growth. however, just a personal example, but none of my casual gamer friends are playing lol after playing it religiously for a month when it first came out here in korea. casuals will be casuals, they will move on to the next faddy game. you don't see anyone playing farmville now... or the other cloned zynga games for that matter. they're playing draw something or some other shit on their ipads
in terms of dota2, the chinese are going to be playing soon enough, that'll be enough to keep the scene going healthily. it's not like bw in that the pros don't really have a reason to stay with dota1 as the games are basically identical
also, making something easier to play doesn't necessarily bring in casual gamers. for example, bw has some of the most unforgiving, retarded and stupid AI and mechanics that makes barrier to entry almost impossible, and yet bw is STILL played by a shitton of people in korea casually.
On March 12 2012 22:45 PassiveAce wrote:
as a casual gamer (platinum sc2, not so high level LoL) I actually really like the turn and attack animations the way they are, it makes kiting a bit more reasonable and adds an interesting dynamic to chasing i think, not to mention its massive implications on balance. (anyone whos played crystal maiden probably knows what its like to be running away from a melee hero that can kill you while trying to decide if you have enough room between you to get off a frostbite.)
I like how you have to practice heroes to get used to their attack animations, and also differences between projectile speed, some can seem completely impossible (Lina), while some can seem almost imba fast (sniper).
Guess it depends on what "Casual" means.
you're selling yourself short if you call yourself casual, you're discussing balance and metagame, as well as putting in practice on a certain part of the game 
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United States47024 Posts
On March 12 2012 22:52 zeehar wrote:
in terms of dota2, the chinese are going to be playing soon enough, that'll be enough to keep the scene going healthily. it's not like bw in that the pros don't really have a reason to stay with dota1 as the games are basically identical
They'll go where the money is, which means it depends on Valve/Icefrog getting TOs to switch.
As far as getting TOs to switch, the cost of upgrading hardware and licensing the game is significant an non-negligible. It comes down to Valve/Icefrog making that cost reasonable, as well as pitching the game in such a way as to make it seem worth the cost.
I have faith that Icefrog can do it, but at the same time, it's by no means trivial.
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Valve already announced that they want that that game runs even on "shitty" computers, we will see if that will actually happen
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On March 12 2012 22:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 22:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
How true is this though? At top level, everyone is going to be able to last hit anyway, no matter how obscure the animation is (or at least that is what I have been led to believe). Wouldnt you be able to achieve the same effect by clearing the delay caused by hitches in animation by just subtract that time from their attack speed? No, because animation determines the division of the attack time between the pre-attack time and post-attack time. Essentially, having a "better animation" amounts to having the attack time heavily end-loaded into the post-attack (which you can cancel out of). This in turn affects how effective you can be in kiting or orb-walking with a given hero. In the theoretical extreme case, a hero with 0 pre-attack time, and all post-attack could *always* be moving between attacks and spend zero time in the process of standing and attacking, which means it would be possible to kite and orb-walk without stopping your movement at all. Particularly as it pertains to ranged heroes, you want to balance their overall baseline DPS, and you also don't want to accept making all their animations super end-loaded and make them all super easy to kite with. Essentially, attack speed defines how much stand-and-fire DPS you can achieve, while your attack animation determines what percentage of time can be spent moving when you're orbwalking/kiting without significant DPS loss.
If that is what you are worried about- a simple fix would be to make it impossible to cancel out of the first X bit of the post attack.
Its essentially what you are willing to trade off of- the feel of having absolutely shitty animations or being slightly grounded after hitting something. Either case has the same effect for kiting- its just when you are frozen. Something like that would make the game MUCH more accessable- the only thing would be if you could make the visuals match up in such a way to make the process not feel clunky.
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EPT
